Debate! Pagan vs. Orthodox: Logos, Language & Metaphysics - Jay Dyer Vs CB Robertson
Jay Dyer CB Robertson Fr. Ananias
0:00Jay DyerWhat what should we look for?
0:03CB RobertsonWell, I'll try to give the
0:06CB Robertsonthe the
0:08CB Robertsonthis is the fundamentals of the two arguments that I think might be most interesting to you and your audience. So it might be closer to ten, but I'll try to keep it concise and we can go into more detail.
0:20Jay DyerThat way, yeah, I'll do ten and then we can have the exchange. So kick it off whenever you're ready to have a tour.
0:25CB RobertsonCool.
0:26CB RobertsonAlright. Well,
0:28CB Robertsonthanks so much for having me, Jay.
0:31CB RobertsonI guess I'll cut right to it. I I was invited
0:37CB Robertsonto debate here
0:39CB Robertsonbecause
0:41CB Robertsonyou guys seem like a very knowledgeable community and and Jay seems like, very knowledgeable guy.
0:47CB RobertsonI was actually in Kuwait here for me with
0:49CB RobertsonMatt to welcome to you and with Stefan Molinist on the way up here. I'm sure it's a fun
0:56CB Robertsonfun lesson.
0:57CB RobertsonSo I
0:59CB RobertsonI have two
1:01CB Robertsonarguments against Christianity.
1:04CB RobertsonOne which made its way to a book already,
1:08CB Robertsonwhich doesn't say it's right, obviously, but it should probably be interesting. And another one which will be in
1:14CB Robertsona quick scene, I think. Though it's a little bit softer, I think, and and perhaps even complementary
1:20CB Robertsonin in a way.
1:22CB RobertsonSo the first argument and and you can perhaps correct me on the name of this. I'm probably getting my my Greek wrong. I call it the disontological
1:29CB Robertsonargument.
1:30CB RobertsonAnd it's basically a dilemma
1:32CB Robertsonwhere
1:34CB Robertsonall of Christianity
1:36CB Robertsonis
1:37CB Robertsonperceived to hinge upon
1:40CB Robertsonmoral intuitions,
1:42CB Robertsonnamely
1:42CB Robertsonthat the universe
1:44CB Robertsonthat the world is fallen, that it's in a state of sin,
1:48CB Robertsonthat humans are fallen in nature. And I think that the best
1:53CB Robertsonexample of this kind of argumentation is the way that CS Lewis or the least,
1:58CB Robertsonhe begins
1:59CB Robertsonby explaining how,
2:02CB Robertsonyou know, we all have these intuitions that there are certain things
2:05CB Robertsonthat are
2:07CB Robertsonright and wrong.
2:08CB RobertsonAnd even if we deny the existence, we also appeal to them as in our own interest,
2:14CB Robertsonbut then it goes on from there.
2:16CB RobertsonAnd so these these moral intuitions
2:20CB Robertsonare
2:22CB Robertsonwe have these moral intuitions, but they are we we at the same time recognize that there's enough follower.
2:28CB RobertsonThe bible tells us not to trust our own linguistically.
2:32CB RobertsonAnd
2:33CB Robertsonwhen we put it down to it, many of the things in the bible
2:38CB Robertsonare morally counterintuitive.
2:40CB RobertsonFor example, when Abraham
2:42CB Robertsontells
2:44CB Robertsonor or so when god tells Abraham to sacrifice his own son,
2:48CB Robertsonyou could argue
2:49CB Robertsonthat it is more by definition because God is the one doing it. He is the rightful creator,
2:55CB Robertsonand and the universe is more or less his to do it as he pleads. He is the standard setter. Right? The moral into the the counterintuitive
3:03CB Robertsonnature
3:05CB Robertsonof that command, and that's just one example of how many others,
3:09CB Robertsoncalls into question our own moral intuitions,
3:12CB Robertsonwhich include the moral intuitions that undercut our
3:16CB Robertsonbelief in
3:18CB RobertsonGod in the first place. Another
3:21CB Robertsonvariation of this is in
3:23CB Robertsonone of his books, makes
3:25CB Robertsonthe argument that the existence of evil
3:28CB Robertsonis often what leads people to Christianity. They observe
3:32CB Robertsonevil to evil in the world,
3:34CB Robertsonand
3:36CB Robertsonthey perceive the sort of continuum
3:39CB Robertsonbetween evil on one end and the pinnacle of evil on the other. And so if one, theologically, deduce a sort of
3:47CB Robertsonthere must be a highest possibility which would be God by definition.
3:52CB RobertsonBut, again, if our moral intuitions
3:55CB Robertsonare fallible in some cases,
3:57CB Robertsonthen the moral intuitions which undergird Christianity
4:01CB Robertsonmay also be fallible.
4:02CB RobertsonAnd if our moral intuitions are not infallible,
4:06CB Robertsonthen, of course, God would be immoral,
4:08CB Robertsonwhich would be impossible within the Christian worldview as I understand it.
4:14CB RobertsonAm I talking in circles at this point?
4:18Jay DyerI mean, it's it's your argument, though.
4:21Jay DyerThat's Okay. You. Whether you make
4:23CB Robertsona sound argument. Alright.
4:31Jay DyerOkay.
4:34CB RobertsonWell, with the with the basis of that one, I'll try to move on to my second one, which
4:41CB Robertsoncame much later, and it came about after I was diving into horror
4:46CB Robertsonin more depth and sort of into Finchstein by extension.
4:50CB RobertsonA language philosopher
4:52CB Robertsonwho, at first,
4:54CB Robertsonlike Comer,
4:55CB Robertsonbelieved that language was about painting pictures.
4:59CB RobertsonWords
5:00CB Robertsonhad set definitions,
5:02CB Robertsonset meanings,
5:03CB Robertsonand that's a that static understanding of language
5:07CB Robertsonwas what permitted
5:08CB Robertsonlanguage to have the possibility of
5:12CB Robertsoncarrying people forward
5:14CB Robertsoninto immortality.
5:16CB RobertsonIt permitted the possibility
5:18CB Robertsonof idealistic
5:19CB Robertsonheroism and created
5:23CB RobertsonAchilles,
5:24CB Robertsonand it's my belief that Christianity is the the pinnacle
5:29CB Robertsonof that tradition of Greek heroism.
5:32CB RobertsonThat Homer didn't stop there. Homer, like,
5:35CB Robertsona changing heart thirty years later realized that he maybe got things for the law, that it was not something static
5:42CB Robertsonand that's
5:44CB Robertsonit was a he didn't use the term linguist in a way that later Greeks began too.
5:51CB RobertsonBut that logos understanding
5:53CB Robertsonlanguage shifted
5:54CB Robertsonto a more eidos,
5:56CB Robertsonso was a more mental
5:58CB Robertsonconnection
5:59CB Robertsonrather than pursuing objective truth
6:02CB Robertsonin the word itself as a means of conveying
6:05CB Robertsontruth.
6:07CB RobertsonAnd
6:08CB Robertsonwe see this in the Odyssey, and we see this in Liechtenstein's
6:12CB Robertsonpostulates work as well.
6:15CB RobertsonAnd that
6:16CB Robertsonthe this
6:17CB Robertsonfinal space of understanding the nature of language, where words are
6:22CB Robertsonare actually arbitrary
6:24CB Robertsonand do not have its ears moving,
6:28CB Robertsonmeans that there's
6:44CB RobertsonAlright, sir.
6:45CB RobertsonAnyways, I'll I'll let us just say that
6:49CB Robertsonfrom this romantic understanding of language, and that's something you're saying, you
6:54CB Robertsonwords don't even have the possibility
6:56CB Robertsonof conveying
6:59CB Robertsonobjective truth intrinsically.
7:01CB RobertsonNow words can use to convey objective truth subjectively
7:05CB Robertsonfrom person to person where a mental connection
7:09CB Robertsonis made.
7:10CB RobertsonBut the words themselves don't have that power. They only have the ability as tools for one mind to use them in the direction of another.
7:21CB RobertsonAnd so the the passability
7:23CB Robertsonof immortality
7:25CB Robertsonthrough the word, which was a homoer created out of heroism, that Socrates
7:30CB Robertsonrefined what Jesus perfected
7:32CB Robertsonand what evil are you abused
7:38CB Robertsonis
7:41CB Robertsonnaive
7:42CB Robertsonas far as our understanding of language goes. And so with logo's
7:47CB Robertsonreally beautiful
7:48CB Robertsonconcept,
7:49CB Robertsonit is a it is a naive and slightly misguided concept,
7:53CB Robertsonand the the idea of immortality through the word is likewise naive.
8:06CB RobertsonAnd that's the second argument.
8:12CB RobertsonOkay. I mean, if you you
8:13Jay Dyercan keep it on if you want to. I mean, you have more time, or or do you wanna
8:18Jay Dyercease it? No.
8:21CB RobertsonI I think we'll we'll just all all I'll hand it off to you, and we can we can get into more details on that and then back and forth.
8:30Jay DyerK. So I would say that although I don't I didn't hear specific arguments for paganism,
8:36Jay Dyerwhat I heard was two arguments about morality and linguistics,
8:41Jay Dyerlinguistic philosophy,
8:42Jay Dyerwhich I'll address in a second, but Magisterium
8:45Jay DyerOh.
8:49CB RobertsonYeah.
8:51CB RobertsonCan can I jump back in and and offer the the argument for opinions? I I
8:56CB RobertsonI mean, was just thinking about just addressing Christianity.
8:59CB RobertsonGo So
9:02CB RobertsonI I have this quote in my book. It's sort of
9:06CB Robertsona funny
9:07CB Robertsonquote from bishop Robert Barron who was quoting his one of his seminary professors who says, if you ever fight for for this faith, can't be Christian anymore. You should become a pagan.
9:21CB RobertsonAnd
9:21CB Robertsonthere's
9:22CB Robertsona lot of of goofy,
9:26CB Robertsonlarpy,
9:26CB Robertsonfunny, amusing imagery
9:29CB Robertsonsurrounding pagans,
9:30CB Robertsonparticularly
9:31CB Robertsonthe
9:32CB Robertsonurban
9:33CB Robertsonout of shape types
9:35CB Robertsonof pagans that we we can all chuckle and laugh at.
9:41CB RobertsonBut the but the broader
9:43CB Robertsonconcept of paganism
9:46CB Robertsonis something which
9:48CB RobertsonI think captures
9:49CB Robertsonoutside of Orthodox Christianity,
9:53CB Robertsonsomething
9:54CB Robertsonbetter than than any other religious tradition I know,
9:57CB Robertsonthe the
9:58CB Robertsonlocality of different peoples.
10:03CB RobertsonOrthodoxy and, I think,
10:06CB RobertsonMormonism to a degree are fairly unique among Christian doctrines in their in their localization in that way too.
10:14CB RobertsonI know paganism is pagan
10:18CB Robertsonwas a Christian word that came from paganism that mean meant basically country bumpkin. It was a a it's negatory focused term for country people, sort of like redneck today. I prefer to people who were
10:32CB Robertsondeeply enmeshed in their own small community at a at a more local level
10:38CB Robertsonand not as focused
10:40CB Robertsonon
10:41CB Robertsonthe
10:42CB Robertsonsort of
10:44CB Robertsonhumanized
10:45CB Robertsonobjective and universal
10:50CB Robertsontruths and
10:52CB Robertsonand the the the unifying principles
10:55CB Robertsonof the world. They are more focused on their particular land.
11:00CB RobertsonAnd this is a less
11:03CB Robertsonthese are more rules of thumbs than they are strict rules about what makes paganism, but they they tend to have a more cyclical view of time, of generations and history moving in cycles
11:14CB Robertsonrather than a linear start and end.
11:17CB RobertsonAnd they also tend to view the world through a lens of,
11:23CB Robertsonyou know, fallible good versus fallible good. You know, different forces pursuing their own
11:29CB Robertsonself interests
11:30CB Robertsonrather than a good versus evil.
11:34CB RobertsonNow I happen to believe in objective evil,
11:37CB Robertsonthough I don't believe in objective good,
11:40CB Robertsonwhich I think puts me more in the in the pagan category.
11:44CB RobertsonAnd
11:46CB Robertsonyeah. But it's the localization
11:49CB Robertsonand the belief in multiple deities.
11:51CB RobertsonSo
11:52CB RobertsonI've heard
11:54CB Robertsonvarious pastors on online and on the radio talk about the danger of family and nation becoming idols,
12:02CB Robertsonfalse gods that people worship. This is actually how
12:05CB Robertsonfreedom of speech became ensconced in American schools in 1942
12:10CB Robertsonwhen a group of Japanese witnesses said, we don't like doing the Bellamy
12:14CB Robertsonfly salute in our schools. It looks too much like a German guy and also
12:19CB Robertsonit's idolatry in our religion. And the Germans said, fair enough.
12:24CB RobertsonAnd
12:25CB Robertsonbut the idea of nation as a as an idol of sorts or as a god of sorts is
12:32CB RobertsonI think if we're being honest, is sort of appealing to me, and it's appealing to a lot of people.
12:37Fr. AnaniasAnd I think a lot
12:38CB Robertsonof people,
12:39CB Robertsonespecially in my generation, the millennial generation, generation z,
12:44CB Robertsonare coming are seeking Christianity because they're they're they're hoping
12:48CB Robertsonthat it will be a path back to the nation and the family
12:53CB Robertsonand perhaps to strength and,
12:55CB Robertsonfrugality and other good things as well.
12:59CB RobertsonWhen those are when cared about in that way,
13:04CB Robertsonfalse gods and icons, idols.
13:07CB RobertsonAnd
13:08CB RobertsonI I talked with a few Orthodox Christians who disagree with me and say, you know, in our tradition,
13:15CB Robertsonthere is a balance worked into the whole thing for one of the many
13:19CB Robertsonwork out in that way in our tradition, not like the monastic,
13:25CB Robertsonwell,
13:26CB Robertsonheretical traditions, but we can get more into that later. But, anyways, that's where I'm coming from. The pagans, multiple gods that are in tension with each other, and we try to balance out as best we could and live a balanced life, giving due attention and love to our our family and to our nation
13:44CB Robertsonand to our language and history
13:46CB Robertsonand career and so forth.
13:56CB RobertsonI'm sure I'm closing my time now.
14:00CB RobertsonYes. That's ten minutes.
14:09Jay DyerOkay.
14:11Jay DyerSo first thing I would say in response to this is that the first argument
14:16Jay Dyerwell, let let me let me step back a bit.
14:19Jay DyerI don't and I'm gonna be just straight up in a way you take this in the wrong way. There's nothing personal in what I'm gonna say, and I'm not trying to be mean.
14:28Jay DyerBut I'm just gonna be very, very straightforward because that's just my style. It's the way that I discuss and debate.
14:34Jay DyerNothing to do with you personally.
14:37Jay DyerJust gonna be interested in the arguments and presentation that I heard.
14:41Jay DyerI didn't hear any familiarity with Orthodox Christianity. What I heard was kind of a sweeping overview of some general
14:50Jay Dyerprinciples
14:51Jay Dyerthat are sometimes the case with different groups within the
14:55Jay Dyerbroad
14:56Jay Dyerlabel of Christianity.
14:58Fr. AnaniasI mean,
14:58Jay DyerI'm not no.
15:00CB RobertsonNo. No.
15:01Jay DyerYou're
15:02Jay Dyergonna let me talk. I'll let you talk for ten minutes straight. You're not gonna interrupt me.
15:06Jay DyerSo the first thing I would say is that nowhere in the presentation,
15:11Jay Dyernowhere in the presentation did I hear
15:13Jay Dyerany reply to the argument that I give for those existences. So
15:18Jay Dyerin in fairness, you don't have to do that. You want to present your two arguments, which I'm gonna address in a second. But it might have been a better tactical move perhaps to to address the transcendental argument, which is starting that I made. Now maybe you think that these arguments undermine that argument, which I'll give you the opportunity to explain that if you think that's the case, but
15:39Jay DyerI didn't hear a reply
15:40CB Robertsonto tag. I
15:41Jay Dyerheard a
15:42Jay Dyeran appeal to Lewis who, of course, is orthodox and he may have some good writings and some good insights,
15:48Jay Dyerbut he's definitely not somebody who represents our tradition. So it might have been better to reference people that represent us. So I heard you present the position that humans are fallible or humans are false, excuse me. And therefore, moral intuitions
16:01Jay Dyerare fallible and so therefore, it's the answer is perhaps
16:05Jay DyerChristianity would be therefore
16:09Jay Dyerunreliable or
16:10Jay Dyeruncertain because
16:12Jay Dyerit would take the idea that
16:14Jay Dyergod and his revelation or something like that would therefore be fallible.
16:18Jay DyerSo this is equivocating on making
16:21Jay Dyera
16:22Jay Dyerdirect
16:24Jay Dyeridentification
16:25Jay Dyerbetween
16:26Jay Dyerwhat we would call
16:27Jay Dyernatural
16:29Jay Dyerlaw or
16:29CB Robertsonmoral law
16:30Jay Dyerand divine revelation. So in archaeology we think those are two separate things. Maybe you don't. I'd be interested here how you think that they're different, but the individual's intuitive moral sense is not identical to
16:44Jay Dyerpositive public divine revelation.
16:47Jay DyerSo if you're gonna argue our position, it needs to address our position.
16:51Jay DyerIt doesn't need to address a position that sort of assumes that all
16:55Jay Dyerbiblical moral claims are identical to merely
17:00Jay Dyermore of the natural moral law or
17:03Jay Dyernatural revelation because we don't believe that.
17:05CB RobertsonSo we
17:06Jay Dyeractually believe that there's different types of revelation and so scripture is one component we could say of
17:12Jay Dyerpublic divine revelation. It's not identical to
17:16Jay Dyernatural moral law which would be the sort of inner moral sense that people have,
17:21Jay Dyerbut they share a similar origin in the fact that we would say man is made named to God.
17:26CB RobertsonBeing man
17:26Jay Dyernamed to God, God's
17:28Jay Dyercreatures are going to have a moral
17:32Jay Dyerthey're gonna share
17:33Jay Dyera same moral nature that he has and so that's why if you read Romans one, it makes this argument that everybody has basically the 10 commandments stamped on their hearts to make that simple. But does this take from positive public
17:46Jay Dyerdivine revelation which for us is as
17:48CB Robertsona service recorded in scripture
17:50Jay Dyerand then tradition
17:51Jay Dyerof the church. So there's a twofold
17:54Jay Dyeraspect there and they are distinct, they are not in conflict in our view, but they are distinct. Just give an example of Abraham,
18:01Jay Dyeractually Abraham and the situation in Genesis 22 is a
18:06Jay Dyertreatise against
18:07Jay Dyerthe king's sacrifice that was
18:10Jay Dyerprevalent in that region. In fact, God was testing Abraham in order to demonstrate that God is not the type of deity that actually requires
18:19Jay Dyerhuman sacrifice
18:20Jay Dyerlike the nations around the Israelites did.
18:24Jay DyerSo the whole previous, if you look at the context, is actually against
18:27Jay Dyerhuman sacrifice. In fact, the entire mosaic revelation contains multiple
18:33Jay Dyermoral
18:35Jay Dyerreprimands and rejections of the notion of human sacrifice. It's actually sin that brings about the death penalty if you do it.
18:43Jay DyerIt's it's worth of death and that morality continues in the New Testament where Paul includes it obviously amongst the things that are worthy of death.
18:50Jay DyerYou can look at Romans one again for that kind of thing. So this is a misreading of Genesis 22 to think that this is a a text that requires
18:59Jay DyerAbraham to sacrifice his son. What God is what God is demonstrating is that Abraham would be willing to do that. And so in some instances, there are what you can say are tests or
19:11CB Robertsonand they're
19:11Jay Dyernot tests because God doesn't know. They're tests that exemplify
19:14Jay Dyerthat person as a person who, in some cases,
19:18Jay Dyerthe case I think of Athanas,
19:20Jay Dyerhe was willing also to
19:22Jay Dyerfollow God even above his family members. Now that doesn't make family members evil. Jesus has the same
19:29Jay Dyerprinciple in the gospel where he says that you must hate father and mother
19:34Jay Dyerwhen compared to me. Now he's not literally saying, hey, then he's saying that you must follow me even above your parents. So if your parents, for example, told you to, you know, worship a false deity, you have a duty above your parents, which is the higher authority, which is Christ. Right? So you can't shirk the higher authority for the lower is the point. And the same with the situation with Abraham, you can't
19:55Jay Dyerwe're not this is not an instance where
19:58Jay Dyerthis is the norm. It's a instance where you have a story that's intended to teach the superiority of following God even to the extent of not not creating something that was a blessing into an idol. So that's the whole point of that story is the opposite and that our God actually doesn't require human sacrifice and we're a Christianity spirit that puts an end to human sacrifice historically.
20:20Jay DyerSo I would say that's a a bad example of
20:23Jay Dyerit's not merely moral intuitions.
20:26Jay DyerYou said makes an argument that evil leads people to Christianity,
20:30Jay Dyerand so therefore, there must be some highest possible good. I didn't hear what exactly
20:35Jay DyerI'll let you restate the argument if you want to objection, but it sounded like you're getting at some kind of a goofy pro dilemma argument where is something good or evil based on divine will or fiat? We don't we don't think that it's just arbitrary.
20:49Jay DyerGood is a reflection of God himself. It's a reflection of his moral character. So God doesn't lie. God doesn't do things that are deceptive.
20:57Jay DyerHe might do things that we don't understand, but that doesn't mean that there's a lie or deceptive. So
21:02Jay DyerI I could go more into the euthyropical in the later on. Requires
21:06Jay Dyersome metaphysical explanations,
21:08Jay Dyerbut I don't think the yet to further limit fits us. I don't exactly understand what the argument about evil in Box today was supposed to be.
21:16Jay DyerAnd the argument about individual
21:19Jay Dyervaluable revelations.
21:20Jay DyerI don't think that
21:22Jay Dyeris a problem because our again, our our position is not that revelation
21:28Jay Dyeris identical and encapsulated
21:30Jay Dyerin individual moral intuitions.
21:32Jay DyerThere's a public positive
21:34Jay Dyerrevelation that's, you know, for example, the teachings of the prophets.
21:38Jay DyerSo you can't,
21:40Jay Dyeryou know, you can't say like, well, you know, I believe that my intuitions tell me that I should do this even though it's contrary to what the prophets and the gospel say. Right? So you you can't set them in opposition. Have to be in unison.
21:53Jay DyerNext, the the exhibit of Wittgenstein.
21:56Jay DyerI didn't hear any actual arguments here about
22:00Jay Dyerhow this is supposed to apply to our notion of logos. Logos for us is met is metaphysics. Right? I mean, there is a linguistic component to it. You seem to
22:08CB Robertsonreduce logos to language.
22:11CB RobertsonThat is
22:11Jay Dyernot what logos is for us. Now maybe you think that it is only language, I don't know, but the assumption in this argument was that logos is something from
22:21Jay Dyerthe Odyssey
22:22Jay Dyeror Hellenic culture.
22:25Jay DyerActually,
22:25Jay Dyerwe believe that John in John one is drawing from
22:29Jay Dyerthe Hebrew wisdom literature where
22:32Jay Dyerwisdom is personified.
22:34Jay DyerRight? Wisdom is the logos that personified so that the well from which John is drawing is the already existing Hebrew wisdom tradition in Proverbs, Ecclesiastes,
22:44Jay Dyerwisdom of Solomon, etcetera.
22:46Jay DyerIt doesn't really have anything to do with can we prove our positions from
22:51Jay Dyerwhat Plato wrote or what's in the Odyssey.
22:53Jay DyerSo there's
22:55Jay Dyeris I think word concept fallacy going on here and assuming that logos
23:00Jay Dyerin the
23:02Jay Dyerwritings of the Hellenic philosophers is identical to logos
23:06Jay Dyerand in Christian theology it is not. In fact, all of these terms undergo a transformation or logos does not mean what
23:14Jay Dyerthe Hellenic writer's thought meant. Said language isn't static, logos becomes einos.
23:19Jay DyerMental,
23:20Jay Dyerthere's sort of a mental connection that's going on. I'm guessing that you meant by that that it's not actually anything to do with metaphysics. Maybe that's the reduction of the mood that you were doing there to
23:30CB Robertsonto squish
23:32CB Robertsonlogos in metaphysical
23:33Jay Dyersense into something purely linguistic.
23:36Jay DyerAnd then you proceeded to give, I think which is the worst part of the argument,
23:41Jay Dyeran attempt to appeal to which,
23:43Jay Dyeragain, I think if you had listened to my argument and the transcendental argument, you would have probably hopefully caught the fact that I'm a presupposition critique your big mistake,
23:53Jay Dyerwhich is where you said words are arbitrary and don't have any inherent meaning.
23:57Jay DyerIf that's the case, then the very words words are arbitrary and don't have any inherent meaning, don't have any inherent meaning, are arbitrary,
24:05Jay Dyerand are therefore self refuting.
24:07Jay DyerYou spoke of a subjective truth that is conveyed. I'm also saying it's a subjective truth that is conveyed because
24:14Jay Dyeryou appeal to a universal principle and claim that words cannot convey truth.
24:19Jay DyerNow you're using words to convey truth.
24:22Jay DyerAnd so anybody who, I think, had more of a more than a sophomore level education in Wittgenstein would know
24:28CB Robertsonthat
24:28Jay DyerWittgenstein's treatises basically saw off the land that he's sitting on, like in a cartoon. Right? So he writes a book telling you the words are working
24:36Jay Dyerand then he saws off the very limb that he's sitting on, like,
24:40Jay Dyeryou know, Wally Coddy or something because
24:43Jay Dyeryou can't write a book to convey meaning and convey truth, which requires, again, a lot of metaphysics, lot of episcopal principles, lot of certitude,
24:51Jay Dyerand then expect that to
24:53Jay Dyerto hold when you turn around and deny the possibility of conveying those things in a universal and absolute sense. And and our rest assured that, yes, it does require universal absolute sense to convey meaning in these propositions and these phrases and these symbols on paper. There's no such thing as perhaps the way that JF argues a localized universal truth that's purely nonsensical.
25:16Jay DyerHe said logos is a naive
25:18Jay Dyerconcept.
25:19Jay DyerAgain, you never told us in what steps logos is naive because you just sort of move from it being metaphysical
25:26Jay Dyerand squishing it into something
25:28Jay Dyerrhetorical and literary.
25:31Jay DyerWe need to understand here an argument as to why that is the case. You mentioned the passing of Hegel. I don't see how Hegel is gonna get you there. Hegel was a rapid obsessive
25:41Jay Dyermetaphysician.
25:43Jay DyerSo certainly, Hegel is not gonna help you in squishing
25:47Jay Dyermetaphysical principles into something purely linguistic or Token concept. That's not gonna work. And then you gave arguments about pagans
25:55Jay Dyerfocused on their lands. You gave a long three minutes or so
26:00Jay Dyeras which was a descriptive
26:02Jay Dyerstate of what paganism is.
26:05Jay DyerI didn't hear any arguments. I heard a long descriptors of what paganism is, which not really relevant. It's more of an autobiographical
26:12Jay Dyerdetail or what you what you like about it. I didn't hear arguments for paganism. I heard pagans believe x y z. We don't really like the, you know, yoga
26:23Jay Dyerwitch
26:24Jay Dyerniches on Instagram.
26:25Jay DyerAgain, those aren't arguments. So I need to hear an actual argument as to why I'm supposed to believe in the nation state or nationalism
26:33Jay Dyerand and not autobiographical
26:36Jay Dyerdetails about what you, you know, you like about it or what you don't like.
26:39Jay DyerThen you said the gods
26:42Jay Dyerare
26:43Jay Dyerin some sense
26:45Jay Dyerintention.
26:46Jay DyerYou said the gods are intention, which I assume means that they're real.
26:49Jay DyerAlthough you just told me that words
26:51Jay Dyercan't really convey metaphysical truths and reality, but now you're telling me these very vast metaphysical truths about gods existing in some metaphysical reality where their intention is fighting with one another and at the same time,
27:05Jay Dyerthere is no
27:07Jay Dyerwould you say evil?
27:08Jay DyerIs it there's absolutely good but not evil? I think it what he said.
27:14Jay DyerOr something like that. There's absolutely evil but not good. I don't care which one of the two. These are these
27:20Jay Dyerare
27:21Jay Dyervast grand metaphysical
27:23Jay Dyerclaims
27:24Jay Dyerwhich are completely absurd for somebody to say who had just said that
27:29Jay Dyerwords are arbitrary and don't convey any meaning. Here you are doing something that's pretty,
27:35Jay Dyeryou know, diametrically opposed to that very thing. So those are
27:39CB Robertsonmy responses to your
27:40Jay Dyercritiques.
27:41Jay DyerI think that the presentation was fundamentally self reviewed.
27:51CB RobertsonAlright. What are you doing? The the
27:53CB Robertsonback and forth now?
27:56CB RobertsonSure.
27:57Jay DyerOkay. Cool.
27:58CB RobertsonSo I'll I'll walk through some of the things that I I think you've got wrong,
28:02CB Robertsonand I perhaps I was unclear before.
28:05CB RobertsonAnd now I'd to go into some of the stuff that I thought was was more interesting
28:10CB Robertsonaround focus. And I apologize for the sometimes misunderstanding.
28:14CB RobertsonMaybe I misspoke. What I meant to say was not that words cannot convey
28:19CB Robertsonobjective truth.
28:22CB RobertsonWhat I meant to say, and I think I said, but I I might have misspoke, was that words cannot convey truth
28:29CB Robertsonobjectively.
28:30CB RobertsonThey can't convey objective truth objectively.
28:33Jay DyerAnd this sounds like We can't give words. It sounds like something. I'm not trying to be mean. I don't understand how you're flipping the words around them. That that means something different.
28:42CB RobertsonNo. No. No. So so let me let me try to explain that.
28:45CB RobertsonSo
28:46CB Robertsonwords
28:47CB Robertsonare, by their nature, metaphors,
28:49CB Robertsonand words are arbitrarily associated
28:52CB Robertsonsounds
28:53CB Robertsonwith meaning.
28:55CB RobertsonAnd the
28:56CB Robertsonmeanings associated with those sounds are purely cultural. They are not genetic nor are they inherent to the object in question. I'm
29:05CB Robertsonsorry. I knocked again.
29:07CB RobertsonAll words are metaphors?
29:09CB RobertsonThe words? Yes.
29:12CB RobertsonThey are.
29:14CB RobertsonOkay.
29:15CB RobertsonIs not a metaphor.
29:18CB RobertsonIt
29:19CB Robertsonit is. A metaphor
29:21CB Robertsonis is a way for standing in place of something else.
29:25Jay DyerSo I'm are you I'm not again, I'm sure, maybe, are you aware of
29:30Jay Dyerliquidating philosophy at all?
29:32CB RobertsonMy
29:35CB Robertsonmy source for this statement is Julian James. So so I'm not I'm not coming up with this one.
29:39Jay DyerDon't know who that is. I mean, I don't it doesn't matter. Okay. I'm trying to say, like, what are you familiar with the basic laws? I don't need an appeal to the board. So I don't I don't need any classes off of that.
29:49CB RobertsonDo you know
29:51CB Robertsonsuppose I suppose I replace the metaphor
29:54CB Robertsonwith
29:55CB Robertsonstandard or analog,
29:57Jay Dyerwould would
29:58CB Robertsonit be
29:59CB Robertsonperhaps we can find a better word for what I'm trying to say.
30:02Jay DyerWell, I mean, I'm so hold on.
30:04CB RobertsonSo you're here's attempting it sounds like to give a
30:07Jay Dyerdefinition of linguistic philosophy
30:10Jay Dyerthat I
30:10CB Robertsonhear about. I'm trying to explain your other principles of linguistic philosophy, and so
30:15Jay DyerI don't see how this is gonna work.
30:17CB RobertsonI'm I'm saying that there's no inherent relationship between the three letters t e n
30:23CB Robertsonand the writing implements that I'm holding in my hand. Right? The the
30:28CB Robertsonassociation
30:28CB Robertsonbetween those three words and the object
30:31CB Robertsonis arbitrary,
30:33CB Robertsonbut despite
30:35CB Robertsonthat So simple. Is
30:37Jay Dyerthat right? So simple. That arbitrary nature. Right. I'm still are valuable and can and and can be used. The rest of the number seven can be in Arabic
30:46Jay Dyernumerology
30:48Jay Dyeror
30:48CB Robertsonyou can write it as Exactly.
30:49Jay DyerNumerals.
30:50Jay DyerYeah. So they how they work.
30:52CB RobertsonPrecisely. Yes.
30:54CB RobertsonOkay. And and and I can
30:56CB Robertsonconvey this objective truth. I happen to actually be holding a pen in my hand if you believe me. I can convey that truth to you through these words. I just conveyed objective truth
31:08CB Robertsonthrough a subjective medium.
31:11CB RobertsonBut if
31:13CB Robertsonbecause of the nature of language,
31:15CB Robertsonthere's nothing there's nothing objective
31:18CB Robertsonabout the association between the words I used and the truth I was conveying by them. Does that make sense?
31:25Jay DyerRight. Because that's the difference between the symbol and the referent. Right? So, yeah, I
31:29CB Robertsondon't Exactly.
31:30Jay DyerI don't know. But
31:31Jay Dyerbut hold on. Who
31:34Jay Dyerwho argued that or who thought that this was somehow inherent to Christianity? Because, I mean, it's pretty fundamental to Christianity that our truth can be our gospel can be translated into any language.
31:46Jay DyerSo
31:47Jay DyerI I don't understand why you're arguing against position that nobody ever argued whoever argued that
31:53Jay Dyerthat the the words
31:55Jay Dyeron the page is somehow inherent
31:57CB Robertsonto the meaning of
31:58Jay Dyerthe of the the concept.
32:01CB RobertsonSo this is I'm just exactly the subject.
32:04CB RobertsonI thought you
32:05Fr. Ananiascan begin. I'm I'm here. Go ahead.
32:10CB RobertsonThis
32:11CB Robertsonis where I I actually wanted to pick your brain on the the whole logo state
32:15CB Robertsonbecause this is actually very interesting to me. I and you're right. I was going from a phlegic view
32:21CB Robertsonon this,
32:22CB Robertsonbut
32:24CB Robertsonmy understanding and and you're also correct that my my arguments
32:28CB Robertsonin in my book
32:30CB Robertsonand with the
32:32CB Robertsonthe moral disontological
32:33CB Robertsonargument and and the litmus argument are directed towards
32:36CB RobertsonChristianity broadly, not not to orthodoxy in particular.
32:41CB RobertsonSo perhaps we can go into details on on the distinction between
32:45CB RobertsonYeah.
32:45Jay DyerWhat we do is
32:47Jay DyerI'm not trying to cut you off, but can you please flush this one because I I don't understand the
32:52CB Robertsonargument. Yeah.
32:53CB RobertsonAnd and and also,
32:55CB Robertsonan aside, I wasn't trying to interrupt before. I was just the Internet was cutting out, and I was I was checking.
33:04CB RobertsonOkay. You asked me to explain
33:07CB Robertsonin a little bit more detail. And that that I'm sorry for that. I should've explained that better. So
33:13CB Robertsonmy source here is a a Harvard philologist named Greg Knowledge who goes into detail about eidos. And eidos is a mode of speech.
33:23CB RobertsonNow a lot of older care
33:24CB Robertsonuse
33:26CB Robertsonin
33:27CB Robertsonhomoetic speech ethics, but and also in other
33:32CB Robertsonat the time in in that lots of
33:36CB Robertsoncurrent traditions
33:37CB Robertsonand and sort of smaller locale
33:40CB Robertsoncommunities. And it's a it's a semi cryptic mode of speech that is designed to
33:46CB Robertsonit is spoken with somewhat ambiguous language,
33:49CB Robertsonand it's designed
33:51CB Robertsonto
33:51CB Robertsonappoint someone
33:53CB Robertsonto interpret things in a particular way when the time comes.
33:59CB RobertsonThis is not a a a a excellent
34:02CB Robertsonexample,
34:03CB Robertsonbut it's a contemporary example that comes to my mind.
34:06CB RobertsonA motorcyclist once wrote that he was told to always be very
34:11CB Robertsonbe afraid if you see your shadow in front of you.
34:16CB RobertsonAnd it wasn't clear to him what that meant at the time or or why he should be afraid, but then he was riding one day and he my car got really close to him, and he realized, oh, when the the sun is behind me and the shadow is in front of me, that means other people can't see me.
34:31CB RobertsonAnd so, like, the priming of that language,
34:36CB Robertsonof that ambiguous and somewhat cryptic language,
34:41CB Robertsoncatches the the
34:43CB Robertsonit it it catches the referent fresh
34:46CB Robertsonbecause it's catching the referent before the hearer is even familiar with it. Does it if that makes sense? I I hope I'm not losing anyone.
34:55Jay DyerI mean, I think I'm following you. I'm just not understanding how this applies to your argument about Christianity or
35:01CB Robertsonwhat exactly. So it's
35:03CB Robertsonright. So it's it's it's a different philosophy of language, basically. Logos,
35:08CB Robertsonand and again, this this might not apply to Orthodoxy at all. It might apply to
35:13CB Robertsonthe the Hellenic heroism that I've been studying and to
35:18CB Robertsonthe Christianity
35:20CB Robertsonthat's more in that Hellenic
35:22CB Robertsonschool of thought wherein they really do translate logos as the word,
35:26CB Robertsonand they they take, you know, god spoke of the world into existence in Genesis
35:31CB Robertsonquite literally.
35:33Jay DyerThe word explanation is a byproduct
35:37Jay Dyermisunderstanding that I pointed out in my response, which is the word onset fallacy. The logos does not mean a verbal utterance or not.
35:47CB RobertsonRight.
35:48CB RobertsonOkay. So so that that so that argument might not apply to ousadox at all
35:56Jay Dyerand as you're explaining it here. And so logos is the second person of God. It's Jesus.
36:01Jay DyerIt's a person. It's a he. I don't know.
36:04CB RobertsonOkay. So it's not a concept at all. I thought we were talking about a Hebrew
36:09CB Robertsonconcept,
36:11CB Robertsonor is that also sort of a that, as I said, in John an Aidos priming.
36:16Jay DyerAnd John one, John is drawing from the Hebrew wisdom literature,
36:21Jay Dyerthe wisdom personified.
36:22Jay DyerThat's what he identified as Logos says.
36:27CB RobertsonOkay.
36:28CB RobertsonSo it's it's a it's a a concept that's priming people
36:32CB Robertsonto to anticipate a person?
36:36Jay DyerYes. John believes that the Greeks
36:39Jay Dyerare using
36:41Jay Dyerthis notion that in some sense is correct and that it's looking for kind of a universal absolute metaphysical principle
36:49Jay Dyerand that what the stoics or what the Hellenic philosophers were searching for is really
36:56Jay Dyerreferred to or is is encapsulated in the person of Christ, wisdom personified, the second person.
37:02Jay DyerSo that's John's apologetic
37:04Jay Dyerusage
37:05Jay Dyerof the word to try to say, look. What you Greeks are looking for is right here. It's Jesus. Jesus is the logos. Okay.
37:13Jay DyerSo so they were they
37:14CB Robertsonwere intercreating a term making points.
37:17Jay DyerSo for us, it's the apologetic argument that John's making. So for us, logos is first and foremost metaphysically
37:23Jay Dyerthe second person who got it. There are linguistic applications
37:27Jay Dyerof logos because for us, logos is the principle of ordering or logic or the functionality
37:34Jay Dyeryou could say or the mode of all reality. All created reality has a logic or a logos to it. Even logic itself for us is a created logos
37:44Jay Dyerthat comes from the uncreated logos, Jesus, the second person of God. So all reality is logos in the sense that there's a that
37:53Jay DyerSaint Aquinas talks about that sort of undergirds or is the pattern of all created reality, and that would include language too. Language has a logos and a look into it,
38:03Jay Dyerbut it is a and I'm not being rude. I'm just saying it's a word, concept fallacy to identify
38:08Jay Dyera logic or
38:10Jay Dyercreated
38:11Jay Dyerhuman
38:12Jay Dyerverbal
38:13Jay Dyersymbolism with logos.
38:15Jay DyerLogos is a word that has a lot of different references, a lot of different senses,
38:21Jay Dyera lot of different
38:22Jay Dyermeanings and different contexts and different milieus. What logos means to the Stoics is not what John is talking about in John one.
38:32CB RobertsonRight. Okay. So so in your view,
38:35CB Robertsonlogos is is
38:37CB Robertsonreally a principle of order
38:39CB Robertsonnot a principle of language at all. Except first and it is
38:46Jay DyerIt is the second person of the goddess. So it's not his. It's not saying. It's a he.
38:51Jay DyerIt's Jesus. Inspired away the truth of life. He is the logos. Logos is he. Right? So that's what it is first and foremost for us. It's personal, not Oh, okay.
39:00CB RobertsonSo so then it's not an ordering principle.
39:02Jay DyerIt is an ordering principle. It's a personalized
39:05Jay Dyerordering principle. It's not an ordering principle. It is the ordering principle.
39:10Jay DyerAnd he has many principles by which he orders, which are his logee.
39:14Jay DyerSo the logee or his we we would say they're called the divine ideas. If If you wanna use that phrase, the logi are divine thoughts, divine ideas, divine principles
39:23Jay Dyerthat the omniscient god organizes all of reality according to.
39:28Jay DyerAnd so one of those organizing principles would be
39:31Jay Dyerlogic,
39:32Jay Dyerwould be the law of the numbers,
39:35Jay Dyerwould be the relations of all creatures in terms of their times, their providence,
39:40Jay Dyertheir
39:41Jay Dyerpotentiality,
39:42Jay Dyertheir actuality, all of those principles for us are low key or
39:47Jay Dyerit's just the the various logics
39:49Jay Dyerof the created order, which are all summed up in the uncreation logos.
39:57CB RobertsonSo first of all, you don't have to apologize for for pointing out what you think might be a logical fallacy. That's that's totally fine.
40:04CB RobertsonWe're gonna be.
40:06CB RobertsonBut but
40:07CB Robertsonand perhaps I'm being naive here, but how can a principle of
40:11CB Robertsonnumbers
40:13CB Robertsonbe a person? Aren't we talking about
40:16CB Robertsontwo different things there?
40:18Jay DyerNo. Because we're saying that the
40:20Jay Dyerthe the location, if we wanna use a
40:24Jay Dyercrude analogy,
40:25Jay Dyerthe location of those principles
40:28Jay Dyeris in the mind of God. And so this is a form of divine conceptualism.
40:32Jay DyerThe the mind of God is our
40:34Jay Dyerunifying and organizing principle of all reality because
40:37Jay Dyerhe's not just personal, he's also omniscient. So he is he he does have the ability to
40:43Jay Dyerunify
40:44Jay Dyerall the different many aspects in creation.
40:48CB RobertsonOkay.
40:52CB RobertsonI think I I get the I get the viewpoint,
40:57CB Robertsonand I get the value of anthropomorphizing
41:00CB Robertsona,
41:02CB Robertsonyou know, a a principle human brains work better when we
41:07CB Robertsonsort of spatialize abstract information and when we personalize
41:11CB Robertsonabstract
41:13CB Robertsonforces.
41:14CB RobertsonHold
41:16CB Robertsonon. So can
41:17Jay DyerI can I put out a fundamental departure from Hellenism?
41:21Jay DyerSo Hellenism
41:22Jay Dyerbasically impersonalizes
41:24Jay Dyerall abstractions.
41:25Jay DyerAnd for us, the one of the unique aspects that Christianity brought to the stage
41:30Jay Dyerwas precisely the notion of personhood.
41:33Jay DyerAnd this is a feature that you can read patristic scholars that discuss in detail in the second, third, fourth, fifth century, especially with the Cappadocians.
41:40Jay DyerThe the
41:41Jay DyerChristian
41:43Jay Dyerthe crystallization
41:44Jay Dyerof the notion of person
41:46Jay Dyeris very big to Christian philosophy.
41:49Jay DyerIt's the only analog of Oh, wait. I would I would
41:53CB RobertsonThe only analog? I would say that
41:55CB RobertsonWhat?
41:57CB RobertsonI I would say it's it's hellenic to depersonalize
42:01CB Robertsonthese concepts only
42:03CB Robertsonaround the time of Socrates and and after. Well, that's what I'm right. That's what
42:08CB RobertsonI'm I guess that trying to go as a journey.
42:10Jay DyerRight. I'm speaking of
42:13Jay Dyerpost,
42:14Jay Dyeryou know, Ionian philosophers and presocratics
42:16Jay Dyerand then up into the general plate neoplatonism
42:19Jay Dyerperiod. I understand that you would have, right, in the notion of
42:24Jay Dyerprior to the presocratics that that there would be a personification
42:28Jay Dyerof these natural principles.
42:30Jay DyerAnd perhaps to a degree, you could say that that
42:34Jay Dyerwe
42:35Jay Dyerthat that there's some parallel there, but
42:37CB Robertsonfor for
42:38Jay Dyerthe notion of a person for us is
42:41Jay Dyernot even
42:42Jay Dyerthe same as that. So there's no parallel because we believe person is something that's a Mhmm. Divine revelation. Right? It's not something that comes to us from pagan philosophy.
42:52Jay DyerThere are words like hypostasis that are that are used by philosophers that that your father's intake and use, but the words for us are transformed. So they have a unique
43:03Jay Dyerwithin
43:03CB Robertsonour Clarifying question.
43:04CB RobertsonHypostasis,
43:06CB RobertsonI I and this was explained to me just yesterday or maybe the day before. Do you are you meaning a a transcendent union between
43:15CB Robertsonotherwise differentiated
43:17CB Robertsonentities
43:18CB Robertsonor something that one was stands for person.
43:20Jay DyerIt's the personal core subject or agent.
43:23Jay DyerSo I'm the person, j.
43:25Jay DyerYou're the person, the the
43:27Jay DyerCB.
43:28Jay DyerIn our system, what we share is a common human nature and what's particular or unique
43:34Jay Dyeris the notion of person on the hypostasis J, you're the hypostasis CB, but we share a common human nature.
43:40Jay DyerSo all of that was just to say that that you we have to be wary of word concept fallacy that the words always mean the same thing. They don't. And they don't mean the same thing for
43:52Jay DyerStoics
43:52Jay Dyeror for the Middle Platonists as they do for later Christian philosophy.
43:58Jay DyerOrthodox philosophy.
44:00Jay DyerWell,
44:01CB RobertsonI'm I'm glad you've given a name to the to basically summarize my critique
44:07CB Robertsonof of logos as
44:10CB Robertsonit presented itself to me in in Greek heroism.
44:14CB RobertsonAnd if it if that doesn't apply to orthodox Christianity,
44:17CB Robertsonthen
44:18CB Robertsonno power to you.
44:20Jay DyerNo. Again,
44:21Jay Dyerour our our stuff is Hebrew.
44:24Jay DyerThat's our plan.
44:25CB RobertsonBye bye. Okay.
44:27CB RobertsonExcellent
44:29CB Robertsonthen. I suppose that we should go back to the moral
44:34CB Robertsonarguments and ontology stuff. You asked me to perhaps restate argument.
44:40CB RobertsonI am.
44:41CB RobertsonI'm gonna be a little rough about it because I'm going off the limit here.
44:45CB RobertsonBut he began his argument basically as a response to people who were concerned about the problem with people.
44:51CB RobertsonAnd he said,
44:52CB Robertsonin his experience, he he never saw that many people who, in in the sort of God's not dead movie style, experienced something horrible and then said, there must be no God.
45:04CB RobertsonIt's sort of a it's sort of a a meme.
45:08CB RobertsonBut what more often happens is people see real evil
45:12CB Robertsonthat they sort of had dismissed before, and they they perceive
45:16CB Robertsonthe world suddenly through a lens of good versus evil that they hadn't before.
45:21CB RobertsonAnd so that leads them toward, well, what's the good then?
45:25CB RobertsonAnd that's what leads them that that perception of a continuum
45:29CB Robertsonbetween good and evil. Does that make sense?
45:34Jay DyerYeah. And so
45:36CB RobertsonAnd so from there, it's a hop, skip, and a jump to,
45:41CB Robertsonyou know, basically, the ontological argument for god but in moral form. Right? So what is you know, of all the the things that exist, there has to be something that is the most perfect,
45:53CB RobertsonRight. Right.
45:59CB RobertsonRight. This is the presentation of my argument. That's right.
46:02CB RobertsonRight.
46:04CB RobertsonAnd and which CS Lewis has done and, of course, Anne Sullivan, and so
46:09CB Robertsonforth. But
46:11CB Robertsonwhat's interesting about it is that it seems to apply
46:15CB Robertsonwhether people make it or not. Because
46:18CB Robertsonif the world is not fallen,
46:22CB Robertsonright, if humans are not
46:25CB Robertsoninherently
46:26CB Robertsonevil,
46:27CB Robertsonthat are inherently a kind of mixed bag, meaning neutral, maybe even good,
46:34CB RobertsonIt would seem like the necessity of being saved
46:38CB Robertsonis irrelevant.
46:39CB RobertsonThe entire history
46:41CB Robertsonof the,
46:43CB Robertsonyou know, crucifixion and resurrection
46:46CB Robertsoncould be 100%
46:48CB Robertsontrue
46:49CB Robertsonand yet irrelevant.
46:50CB RobertsonAnd if, obviously, that would be pretty strong evidence for the truth of the underlying the world claims.
46:57CB RobertsonRight? But
46:59CB Robertsondo you understand how, like, if if the world isn't a fallen place, we wouldn't be being
47:05CB Robertsonsaved?
47:07Jay DyerWell,
47:08Jay DyerI mean, yeah. Look. I mean, the the the fall is a fundamental doctrine of Christianity. So if there isn't a fall, then there's there's no age of salvation. Would definitely agree with that. I'm sure.
47:20CB RobertsonYeah. And so
47:22CB RobertsonI guess some personal backstory here. I I grew up
47:26CB Robertsonamong a a culture of
47:28CB RobertsonSunday Christians,
47:30CB Robertsonright, who who went to church
47:33CB Robertsonmost Sundays but kind of otherwise didn't care that much. It didn't really affect their day to day lives that they had a personal relationship with the all powerful creator of the universe who would give them a place in heaven or hell respectively after they die.
47:47CB RobertsonThat was kind of not important to them, I guess. And Or is this phronism there, though?
47:54CB RobertsonYes. Okay. That's what
47:55Jay DyerI figured. Not Protestant.
47:56CB RobertsonYeah.
47:58CB RobertsonI'm not sure what it is. I'm just saying that But the
48:02Jay Dyersense that you're not Protestant. Yeah.
48:04CB RobertsonBut the sense of of care,
48:07CB RobertsonI think, extends
48:09CB Robertsonthrough the the orthodox world as well. Right? I mean I mean, at least in principle, it should. Orthodox people should care about their their child. Simply doesn't matter. The the number of people who
48:21Jay Dyerare faithful to a the professed position has nothing to do with the
48:27Jay Dyertrue or falsehood decision.
48:30CB RobertsonOh oh, I totally. I'm not I'm not making an argument against Christianity. I I don't think I'm stating a fallacy when I say that Christians should care about the relationship with God.
48:41Jay DyerNo. You were saying that your experience was that both Protestants and Orthodox don't care about
48:47Jay Dyerthe offer of salvation or something like that. No.
48:50CB RobertsonNo. No. No.
48:51CB RobertsonI I was saying that
48:53CB Robertsonboth Protestants and Orthodox
48:55CB Robertsonshould care,
48:57CB Robertsonbut some don't.
48:58CB RobertsonBoth
49:00CB RobertsonAnd
49:01CB RobertsonI was gonna say, one of my favorite Christian books is actually the way of the pilgrim. I think the principles of that's what apply to non Orthodox Christians as well and even
49:11CB Robertsonpagans or perhaps even anarchists is why the value of the contrary.
49:15Jay DyerOne thing I'm I'm clear on
49:17CB Robertsonis is is and I'm
49:18Jay Dyernot we we can go back to this about the the for the outback outback the detail,
49:23Jay Dyerbut how was the fact that perhaps
49:29CB Robertsonhow is that argument that there was no fall? I heard
49:33Jay Dyeryou say that
49:34Jay Dyermaybe there wasn't a fall because there was still gonna be a good navel and maybe the
49:38CB Robertsonsecond first person how doesn't
49:41CB Robertsonis this an argument?
49:41Jay DyerI'm not understanding the argument.
49:43CB RobertsonOkay. Sorry. Let me let me backtrack there. So there's there's two different ways you could look at the fall. Right? There's the historical
49:50CB Robertsonevent
49:51CB Robertsonof the fall.
49:53CB RobertsonThat's the the fall one.
49:55CB RobertsonAnd there's the fall two, which is the fallen nature of the world which we observe.
50:01CB RobertsonNow we can't observe the fall one. We can read about it, but as we just went over, you know, language can sometimes be tricky and bible verses can be very misleading
50:12CB Robertsonwith the improper
50:13CB Robertsonunderstanding if you haven't been initiated into the correct understanding of these terms. And even then, perhaps you you don't know what is meant in Genesis.
50:23CB RobertsonThe fallen nature of the world around us, you people talk about living in upside down world or clown world or,
50:30CB Robertsonyou know, peculiar euphemism,
50:33CB Robertsonis an interpretation
50:35CB Robertsonof the world. It's a moral intuition.
50:37CB RobertsonAnd all we have access to is the fall number two.
50:41CB RobertsonAnd so it's not fall number two. How do you how
50:45CB Robertsondo you
50:46Jay Dyerknow that that's all that we have access to?
50:50CB RobertsonWell,
50:53CB RobertsonI mean,
50:54CB Robertsonthe fall number one
50:56CB Robertsonis written in a book,
50:59CB Robertsonright, which is already a challenge, not just because we we might not trust
51:04CB Robertsonthe
51:05CB Robertsonveracity of the book, but we may or may not be qualified to understand the contents of the book. Never mind. Okay.
51:11Jay DyerBut that doesn't none of those facts prove or disprove that the book is true or false?
51:17CB RobertsonNo. It doesn't. No. They don't. They don't prove or disprove it. It just it just means that we can't rely on.
51:26CB RobertsonSo we're we're It will it's it's an argument. In other words It's an argument that then we're not gonna shift. Right.
51:31Jay DyerSo in other words, we just assume that the bible is not
51:33CB Robertsontrue, then we won't be
51:34Jay Dyerled to your position. Right?
51:38CB RobertsonNo.
51:38CB RobertsonSo so this goes back to
51:41CB Robertsonwhy I was bringing a personal anecdote about being surrounded by people who seem not to care about those things. I'm sorry. I'll let you Because to me, it doesn't seem like there's a it doesn't seem like there's a point to being Christian if you don't care about whether or not it's true.
51:55CB RobertsonAnd if you pursue
51:57CB Robertsonthe question of if it's true with the presumption that it is true you're
52:03CB Robertsonnot really taking the question seriously.
52:07Jay DyerWell, I mean, nobody can be perfectly neutral. So I think you're requiring something that is impossible. If you're if you're expecting that
52:15Jay Dyerpure neutrality is what's needed to discover the truth, that's that's not even possible.
52:20Jay DyerSo no nobody can be purely
52:23CB RobertsonWell,
52:25CB Robertsonfair fair enough, I suppose. I I guess we all come
52:29CB Robertsonin different degrees of of of
52:34CB Robertsondoubt being or or or
52:36Jay Dyeror Well, we all have presuppositions.
52:38Jay DyerWe all have presuppositions
52:40Jay Dyerabout
52:41Jay Dyervarious worldviews. No matter what your worldview is, it's to have
52:45Jay Dyerunproven
52:47Jay Dyergoverning assumptions.
52:50CB RobertsonRight.
52:51CB RobertsonSo I guess my my underlying
52:54CB Robertsonassumption and it's sort of a it's perhaps a Nietzschean one in a way, but is that the world is my underlying assumption is that the world is good and that life is good,
53:06CB Robertsonand it has
53:08CB Robertsonpain and problems and
53:10CB Robertsonsometimes the gravity and corruption even
53:14CB Robertsonand conflict. But on the
53:15Jay Dyerwhole Right. So extra scrutiny is not
53:18Jay DyerProtestantism.
53:19Jay DyerWe're not Panicheians, so we don't believe that humans are inherently evil. We believe that humans are inherently good.
53:24Jay DyerWe do think it was the fall which introduced
53:26Jay Dyerpassions
53:27Jay Dyerinto man, which is basically out of lack of desires.
53:31Jay DyerThe desires of souls are not inherent to that. The biological desire to have a mate reproduce
53:37Jay Dyeris not inherently evil. Nothing about man is inherently evil. So we would agree with you in terms of
53:43Jay DyerNietzsche. We would say Nietzsche's critique of German liberal Christianity
53:48Jay Dyerof his day is accurate because it is a weakness. It is a absurd liberalism,
53:53Jay Dyerbut that doesn't mean that Nietzscheanism per se is correct because I don't think Nietzscheanism is even any kind of system. It's not even a thing
54:00Fr. Ananiasoutside of the world.
54:01CB RobertsonIt's anti system. Right. Exactly. Yeah.
54:05CB RobertsonSo this
54:07CB Robertsonis all very interesting to me.
54:09CB RobertsonIt it sounds like Orthodox Christianity
54:12CB Robertsonparts ways
54:13CB Robertsonquite tremendously,
54:15CB Robertsonnot just with prostagism,
54:17CB Robertsonbut by the sound of
54:18Jay Dyerit even Catholicism.
54:20Jay DyerYes. We stress the difference between the two in in this
54:24Jay Dyerdiscord.
54:25Jay DyerSo absolutely.
54:26CB RobertsonSo
54:28CB Robertsonso my question then would be, how do you how do you speak with with such certainty about what is and is not in the orthodox canon
54:37CB Robertsonif it parts ways
54:39CB Robertsonso
54:42CB Robertsonlike,
54:43CB RobertsonI I hope you don't take offense with from this, but No. I agree. Consistent from the from the bible.
54:48CB RobertsonThere there seems to be a pretty consistent
54:52CB Robertsonparting ways from the most
54:54CB Robertsonobvious or intuitive
54:57CB Robertsoninterpretations
54:58CB Robertsonof the bible,
54:59CB Robertsonnot just to the laypeople, but even to more educated clergy oftentimes?
55:04Jay DyerI mean, I I think that's, again, relative to the worldview of presuppositions that you come from. I mean, we believe that Orthodox Christianity is the fulfillment of all of those Old Testament prophecies.
55:15Jay DyerI'd be happy to make any number
55:18Jay Dyerof arguments to to demonstrate how that's the case down to even
55:23Jay Dyerthe liturgical worship services basically being directly analogs
55:28Jay Dyerto direct analogs to the temple and synagogue system.
55:32Jay DyerSo
55:33Jay Dyerwhere you choose to see the
55:35Jay Dyercontinuity and discontinuity
55:37Jay Dyerbetween the Old and New Testament or between New Testament Christianity and early patristic
55:41Jay DyerChristianity,
55:43Jay Dyeragain, is gonna depend, I suppose, on your presuppositions,
55:46Jay Dyerbut I think that we definitely have the strength of the argument on our side, which is probably why we we make so many converts in here.
55:53Jay DyerNot that that proves it persecuted because maybe we're tricking everybody, maybe it's all deception,
55:57Jay DyerBut
55:59Jay DyerI'd like to know exactly what you think is when you say ken, are you talking about kenan scripture or are you just speaking loosely of what Orthodox Christianity considers within its confines
56:08Jay Dyeracceptable?
56:09Jay DyerWhen you say kenan, do you mean the kenan scripture?
56:13CB RobertsonI'm thinking of the the bible
56:15CB Robertsonas a whole, and I know that I know that
56:17Jay DyerAnd what do you think
56:18CB Robertsonof Orthodoxy? Somewhat
56:19CB Robertsonmore expensive.
56:21Jay DyerRight. What what do you think of Orthodoxy is fundamentally
56:24Jay Dyerout of accord with the bible?
56:29CB RobertsonWell well, we just had a a very
56:31CB Robertsoninteresting in-depth conversation about the nature of logos.
56:36CB RobertsonAnd the word logos,
56:38CB Robertsonit is
56:40CB Robertsongenerally translated by most people and was translated by most people even prior to,
56:47CB Robertsonas
56:47CB Robertsonfar as I know, it was Protestants
56:50CB Robertsontakeover of the West as
56:52CB Robertsonthe word.
56:54CB RobertsonThat was its meaning in Greek
56:57CB Robertsonfor a very long time.
56:59Jay DyerI mean, again, this is the word concept fallacy, so the fact that word is used for logos is not even a problem in our system because it what it mean well, it matters of what you mean, not the symbols that you use. Right? Because that could be translated into alcohol.
57:14Jay DyerRight? Yes.
57:15CB RobertsonBut if we
57:17CB Robertsonright. But this is and and this is
57:20CB Robertsonsort of ironically
57:21CB Robertsonperhaps the nature of my criticism of logos, which is that they can be very
57:27CB Robertsonthe the meanings of these arbitrary
57:30CB Robertsonsounds
57:31CB Robertsoncan change across time. And but
57:34CB Robertsonbut you if the if the words in the bible
57:38CB Robertsondon't necessarily
57:40CB Robertsonmean
57:41CB Robertsonthat
57:42CB Robertsonits readers are most familiar with them to me,
57:47Jay Dyerthen This is a this is
57:48CB Robertsona this appeal to the masses.
57:51Jay DyerWhat most readers think it means is irrelevant.
57:55Jay DyerAnd most where? Most people in Russia most people in Russia are gonna say what we said. Most people in the bible don't.
58:03Jay DyerSo this is that's why that's a fallacy. What do mean by most?
58:06Jay DyerMost people wear why why should we accept
58:09Jay Dyerwhat arbitrary
58:11Jay Dyerselection of the most?
58:47Jay DyerWas that is it or did you have to talk to somebody?
58:55CB RobertsonHello? Robertson, are you there?
59:05CB RobertsonI think he dropped it.
59:09CB RobertsonAre you still here?
59:11CB RobertsonI hope
59:11Jay DyerI can. I'm not sure.
1:00:41CB RobertsonHello?
1:00:43Jay DyerYeah.
1:00:45Jay DyerOh,
1:00:45CB Robertsonthere we are. Sorry about that.
1:00:47Jay DyerIt's okay. I was just pointing out that the appeal to how most people take a text is appeal to NAACP's. That would
1:00:54CB Robertsonbe awesome.
1:00:56CB RobertsonRight. And and fair enough. And and the point I started to try to make is more,
1:01:03CB RobertsonI was trying to define the the masses in this case is is whoever would pick up the book with the intent to learn more about God.
1:01:13CB RobertsonDoes does orthodoxy have a a particular belief about proper hierarchies of interpretation and initiation
1:01:20CB Robertsonand proper understanding and so forth?
1:01:25Jay DyerSure. But, I mean, it's not a situation where we think that only a PhD is a PhD is no god. I mean, so it's it's not some bare, dry academic thing. I mean there's a
1:01:35Jay Dyerreal
1:01:36Jay Dyerexistential
1:01:37Jay Dyercomponent to where a person has to kind of be in the church and
1:01:40Jay Dyerliving that lifestyle and so forth in the liturgy, in the participation
1:01:45Jay Dyerof the sacraments for sure it is an initiatic
1:01:48Jay Dyerkind of knowledge ultimately. Yes. But that doesn't mean that it doesn't have, you know, an academic or scholarly component to it. Right.
1:01:57CB RobertsonSo I'm
1:01:58CB RobertsonI mean, what you're describing
1:02:00CB Robertsonis sort of the
1:02:02CB Robertsonthe pagan lifestyle,
1:02:05CB Robertsonand perhaps it's not pagan inherently.
1:02:08CB RobertsonIt just happens to overlap in this way. That that I
1:02:13CB Robertsonaspire to, that that sort of
1:02:17CB Robertsonin group familiarity
1:02:18CB Robertsonand that's
1:02:20CB Robertsonto borrow a merry word, you know, that mental connection
1:02:24CB Robertsonthat permits
1:02:26CB Robertsonunderstanding
1:02:27CB Robertsonthrough language.
1:02:29CB RobertsonRight? We can convey objective truth through language
1:02:32CB Robertsoneven though language is a subjective medium, provided we have that mental connection.
1:02:38CB RobertsonSo but but then
1:02:41CB Robertsonit sounds like the bible wouldn't be necessary at all then, would it?
1:02:46CB RobertsonIt can just have these traditions of the proper understandings of the way of things.
1:02:52CB RobertsonAnd the bible would then, on the medium,
1:02:55CB Robertsonand not the not the the god breath
1:02:58CB Robertsonthat it's usually understood as.
1:03:02CB RobertsonI don't see why they would follow.
1:03:03Jay DyerI mean, for us, the scriptures are one form of divine revelation. It's not the only form, but it's a written form and there's advantages to things being written down obviously because communities can go read them.
1:03:16Jay DyerSo I mean, why that's I don't see why that's a problem for our position, the fact that some of that revelation is encoded in text,
1:03:24Jay Dyerthe fact that makes perfect sense.
1:03:27Jay DyerWhat what's the argument?
1:03:32CB RobertsonWell, the argument would be that if if the if the interpretation
1:03:37CB Robertsonof the the proper understanding of these terms and these phrases and scriptures
1:03:44CB Robertsonis passed down and you have to be initiated into the understanding of it,
1:03:49CB Robertsonthen the text itself is almost irrelevant. You can be initiated into that understanding through other means,
1:03:55Jay Dyerwhich means I think that's I think that's an overly simplistic notion of what the revelation is. I mean, the the revelation is vast. Right? I mean, we're talking thousands of pages. We're talking, you know, a lot of content here. Nobody can feasibly memorize the entire thing
1:04:12Jay Dyerand so,
1:04:14Jay Dyerbut is there a sense in which, you know, unlettered, unlearned people for centuries were, you know, learning things orally, sure, that's why partly why Orthodoxia is an iconography, right,
1:04:26Jay Dyerstories are taught, the iconographic
1:04:28Jay Dyerwriting,
1:04:29Jay Dyerthe the images of the icons are writings. So people are learning through different means. It doesn't really matter whether the the somebody's reciting to hear the entire bible orally
1:04:41Jay Dyeror whether it's being drawn or written in icon, we say we call icon papers writers, that's what I'm just referring to there because it's conveying the same
1:04:50Jay Dyerconcept, same story, the same image. Right? Jesus being baptized in an icon
1:04:55Jay Dyeris is telling you teaching you the same thing in the chapter of Matthew. Jesus is baptized.
1:05:01Jay DyerRight? So
1:05:02Jay Dyerhow
1:05:03Jay DyerSo what would be
1:05:04CB Robertsonorthodox
1:05:05CB Robertsoninterpretation
1:05:07CB Robertsonof the law against graven images.
1:05:12Jay DyerSo it that was a prohibition
1:05:15Jay Dyeragainst idols, and God himself, in those very chapters in Exodus,
1:05:19Jay Dyertold Moses what images to describe in the temple. So the the the very book that has the the prescription against
1:05:28Jay Dyergrave images or statues or idols
1:05:30Jay Dyercontains
1:05:31Jay Dyerelaborate
1:05:32Jay Dyerinformation
1:05:33Jay Dyerabout the the
1:05:35Jay Dyericonography
1:05:36Jay Dyerinside the temple.
1:05:37CB RobertsonSo this is just
1:05:38Jay Dyera fundamental protestant presupposition that you had that apparently get it questioned.
1:05:44CB RobertsonWell, it also seems to be a a a Jewish presupposition.
1:05:48CB RobertsonNo. For the longest time.
1:05:49Jay DyerNo. It's not because Judaism
1:05:51Jay Dyerhas,
1:05:52Jay Dyerfor centuries, had its own tradition of iconography.
1:05:55Jay DyerYou can go look at the Doriaphysite
1:05:57Jay Dyersynagogue, which looks just like Orthodox Church, inside
1:06:00Jay Dyerthe synagogue
1:06:02Jay Dyerare paintings of all the scenes of biblical stories.
1:06:08CB RobertsonInteresting.
1:06:09CB RobertsonSo yeah. Well, I perhaps I will have to
1:06:13CB Robertsonadd an additional exemption.
1:06:15CB RobertsonI have an exemption in my moral argument from Mormons
1:06:18CB Robertsonbecause they have worked
1:06:20CB Robertsonfamily into their theology
1:06:22CB Robertsonand perhaps also depending on So
1:06:25CB Robertsonlook. But but, again,
1:06:26Jay Dyerso you said you said things like, well, you know, family, nation, etcetera. These are things that that need to be retained. These are goods. I wanna know what your epistemic principle is for knowing the good.
1:06:38CB RobertsonWell, it's it's that intuition.
1:06:41CB RobertsonExactly. I think that's
1:06:43Jay DyerYou said it's too much fallible,
1:06:45Jay DyerI thought, and,
1:06:46Jay Dyeryou know,
1:06:47Jay Dyermalleable. I I believe How that how is that gonna be an episcopal principle for knowing the good?
1:06:53CB RobertsonWell, if you
1:06:55CB RobertsonI I think that this this fallible principle is, at the end of the day, all we have.
1:07:02CB RobertsonSo oh, wait. Oh, yeah. I'll give an example of how does it feel.
1:07:09Jay DyerSo I just want whatever I have to send you, like, emotive, like, just whatever I feel.
1:07:15CB RobertsonYeah. You're
1:07:17CB Robertsonso so my
1:07:18Jay DyerSo the good is literally whatever I feel. So if I feel like, what,
1:07:23Jay Dyerraping kids or what?
1:07:30CB RobertsonYou're not even trying anymore, are you?
1:07:34CB RobertsonWait. So
1:07:36CB Robertsonyou're you're not even trying. The objective is coming from from asking you your questions and No. I'm not. I'm asking you
1:07:43Jay Dyera very basic, obvious question.
1:07:45Jay DyerYour position is obviously morally relativistic.
1:07:48Jay DyerRight. How does it avoid that? So
1:07:51CB Robertsonso
1:07:52CB Robertsonmy my my favorite book on this subject is
1:07:56CB RobertsonZen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance by Robert Peterson.
1:07:59Jay DyerAnd that's all, like, for me, philosophy stuff. What is your argument for why one thing is wrong, one thing is good?
1:08:08CB RobertsonOne thing is wrong.
1:08:10Jay DyerIt appeals to to literature. What is the argument for why
1:08:14Jay Dyerrape and cat carcasses is wrong?
1:08:20CB RobertsonWell,
1:08:21CB Robertsonwhy is intuition not enough for you? Is that not intuitive?
1:08:25Jay DyerBecause there's some really effed up people, and see I asked if it was just whatever I felt at the moment. Could that be just in motive? How do you just what is the principle that
1:08:34CB Robertsonyou would distinguish just in motive? I think I think it I think it feels good to a lot of people to be able to say
1:08:41CB Robertsonthat, well, that what what those people over there are doing is objectively
1:08:46CB Robertsonit's not just instinctively.
1:08:48CB RobertsonIt's actually against the the laws of the universe itself.
1:08:52CB RobertsonBut I think at the end of the day, that's universally self delusion.
1:08:57Jay DyerDo you think that's universally true?
1:09:00CB RobertsonNo.
1:09:01CB RobertsonI think I just I
1:09:02Jay Dyerdon't Are are there any un are there any universal truth?
1:09:05CB RobertsonI I believe that there is universal evil and rejection of all standards,
1:09:10CB Robertsonand I don't think there was one
1:09:11Jay DyerHow do you know that it how do you know that it's true that there's
1:09:15Jay Dyerthat there is universal evil? What is your outstanding criteria for them to know that that is the case?
1:09:21Jay DyerWell, there are That's a tall that's a tall word.
1:09:26CB RobertsonI I I I get the I get the paradox,
1:09:29CB Robertsonand I get the the paradox.
1:09:32CB RobertsonBut
1:09:33CB Robertsonit doesn't It's not a paradox. Doesn't it doesn't just prove.
1:09:37Jay DyerSo it's it's not a if you contradict her, you will disprove. So it's not a paradox. Paradox. Paradox is not a contradiction.
1:09:48CB RobertsonWe can create paradoxes
1:09:50CB Robertsonout of words
1:09:52CB Robertsonall day long. We can paradoxes
1:09:53Jay Dyerout I want. You made a universal claim. I wanna know how you justify the universal claim.
1:09:59Jay DyerSo that's not a paradox.
1:10:05CB RobertsonI'm
1:10:07CB Robertsonsorry. I'm not entirely following you. What are you asking? You've you've made a universal claim, a truth claim about
1:10:13Jay Dyerby the way, something. Grand. A grand metaphysical truth claim about universal evil being the case. And I wanna know how you have access to that state of affairs.
1:10:23CB RobertsonOh, so
1:10:25CB RobertsonI I'm not trying to be grand. This is an intuition.
1:10:27Jay DyerIt doesn't matter. I'm serious. How does your intuition get you to a universal truth claim?
1:10:34Jay DyerThat's the problem here. You can't it it can't disappoint.
1:10:37Jay DyerAnd the more that you try to do this is digging yourself into the hole about just gonna keep pulling it back to just I want you to justify the point. How do you get to there?
1:10:50Jay DyerLet let me back up
1:10:52CB Robertsona second because so let me let me explain
1:10:55CB Robertsonhow I see morality,
1:10:57CB Robertsonand maybe we can untangle this
1:11:00CB Robertsonmess a little bit better.
1:11:04CB RobertsonWell, I've seen before
1:11:05Jay Dyeryou that get do you believe that it is a universal truth claim that
1:11:09CB Robertsonyou're making? I'm not asking does it
1:11:11Jay Dyerwhere it's worth anymore. Yours so it's not No.
1:11:14CB RobertsonI don't I'm I'm not making it a a universe claim. You said you said I'm I'm stating my People people didn't say university is the case. People is I I said I believe in objective people.
1:11:26Jay DyerOkay. So now it's a subjective preference.
1:11:29CB RobertsonRight? No. It was subjective from the beginning. It was subjective from the So there are no objective
1:11:34CB Robertsontruths. All truths are subjective.
1:11:38CB RobertsonThere are no objective perceptions.
1:11:41CB RobertsonThere may be objective truths that we can circumvent you towards. That objectively true,
1:11:47Jay Dyerbut there are no objective
1:11:48CB Robertsonperceptions.
1:11:50CB RobertsonThat's it. Yeah.
1:11:51Jay DyerThat's why it's self refuted. So all all positions like this Mhmm. Self refuted. Yes. Is. It's
1:11:59Jay Dyernot a work in. It's a it's a truth claim that is contradictory.
1:12:02Jay DyerThat's not a work in. So you don't know what work games are. You don't know what metaphysical claims are apparently because you keep making them and then crossing them out and
1:12:10CB Robertsonthen circling back to talked we We just we just spent, like, twenty minutes talking about logos and the way that subjective meaning is confused with the very objective truths.
1:12:20CB RobertsonAnd you tried to say Correct.
1:12:22Jay DyerYou said tried to
1:12:23CB Robertsonsay if words don't have objective meanings You said that there's no way they can communicate.
1:12:29CB RobertsonTold me that there are no objective truths, but also words can't be objective.
1:12:34CB RobertsonYou you just said very good. Objective perception.
1:12:37CB RobertsonOkay.
1:12:37Jay DyerYou're calling it in a perception. Okay.
1:12:39CB RobertsonDo you have perception?
1:12:40Jay DyerDo you perceive reality at all objectively?
1:12:44CB RobertsonI I'd like to assume so. I I I perceive
1:12:47Jay DyerBut now you're contradicted because you're equating perception.
1:12:49CB RobertsonNo. I haven't. Objectivity.
1:12:52CB RobertsonThen I haven't.
1:12:53CB RobertsonYou're saying that's the state of affairs for all the human perception. That's a universal truth. You see you see if
1:13:00CB Robertsonyou see a tree.
1:13:02CB RobertsonDo you comprehend the entirety of the tree?
1:13:05Jay DyerAcross the entire to
1:13:07Jay Dyerwhether you're
1:13:07CB Robertsonmaking a new universe No. It's totally relevant. No. It's not. It's an entirely relevant. No. It doesn't
1:13:13Jay Dyermatter what you think about a particular tree. Your phrase that you said a minute ago is a contradiction.
1:13:18Jay DyerDo you not see that?
1:13:21CB RobertsonNo. I don't.
1:13:22Jay DyerYou're saying that there are not objective truths. There are perhaps our objective. You say that
1:13:27CB Robertsonthere are
1:13:28Jay Dyerobjective perceptions that are,
1:13:30CB Robertsonlike, these are not Five perceptions. Excuse me. Right?
1:13:33Jay DyerSo every I I think there is a perception,
1:13:35CB Robertsonand there's no objective truth. Right?
1:13:38CB RobertsonSo so gravity
1:13:39CB Robertsonis objective.
1:13:41CB RobertsonIt is 9.6
1:13:42CB Robertsonfeet per second square. No. I know what I'm because you're saying it's an objective truth.
1:13:49CB RobertsonAre you denying that gravity is 9.16%?
1:13:53Jay DyerNope. I'm I'm pointing out
1:13:54CB Robertsonyour condition.
1:13:56CB RobertsonNo. I it's not a
1:13:58CB RobertsonYou you don't know how to that. Now
1:14:01CB Robertsonyou're going on to their being objective truths and principles.
1:14:03Jay DyerAnd then you just said that there are objective truths and principles.
1:14:07Jay DyerNo. I didn't. Yes. You did. You keep you keep shifting the word. You said perceptions.
1:14:12Jay DyerWell, now you're
1:14:13CB Robertsonsaying We're talking about morality.
1:14:15CB RobertsonWe're talking about morality,
1:14:17CB Robertsonand now we're talking about the.
1:14:20CB RobertsonIs it are there any universal truth in any sense at all? Now you said Okay.
1:14:26CB RobertsonOutside
1:14:27CB Robertsonof morality, you're talking about objective Truth. Yes. It is. I I I have with one. Yes.
1:14:32Jay DyerOkay. How do you have access to get the proof of truth in
1:14:37CB Robertsonyour system? Well,
1:14:39CB Robertsonwe we
1:14:40CB Robertsonthey're imperfect access. We we use our senses as best as we can.
1:14:44Jay DyerNo. That's so empiricism will never get you to a universal truth.
1:14:48Jay DyerThat's the point.
1:14:49CB RobertsonDon't have to do it. Okay. It's so in
1:14:51Jay Dyerother words, you can't justify the.
1:14:56CB RobertsonMy claim is that I don't have access to the, like, objectivity.
1:15:01Jay DyerOkay. Now you contradict it again because you just said there were objective truths on there.
1:15:06CB RobertsonNo. There's nothing contradictory about saying there are objective truths and I can't access them.
1:15:12Jay DyerThere's nothing contradictory contradictory.
1:15:14CB RobertsonThat is a contradiction.
1:15:16CB RobertsonNo. It's not. Yes.
1:15:17Jay DyerIt is. Because you have to
1:15:19CB Robertsonhave access to some objective truth to say that there
1:15:21Jay Dyerare objective truths even if you say I got access to them.
1:15:27CB RobertsonThat's
1:15:28CB Robertsononly if you put words in someone's mouth and say every statement, we need a object to take No. You you keep contradicting. I'm not putting words in your mouth. You tell me what
1:15:36Jay Dyerthe position is. I'm asking. You're interpreting.
1:15:39Jay DyerI've given you countless success and and and
1:15:43Jay Dyeropen forums for you to to give your system, and you keep saying contradictory things.
1:15:49Jay DyerYou said there's objective truth. No. There's not.
1:15:51CB RobertsonI don't have access to it, but there
1:15:52Jay Dyeris objective truth. That's nonsense. So you don't have an episcopal criteria by which you make the claims that you're making. You can't justify it. Like, you don't need to justify a claim?
1:16:05CB RobertsonTell me.
1:16:09Jay DyerI'm not I'm asking you, did do you know what about the cost of justification?
1:16:13Jay DyerRight? Like because we can't just say There's
1:16:16CB Robertsonthere's something other than explain.
1:16:19Jay DyerNo. That's not what just justify me to give an account for the the presuppos they're using.
1:16:24CB RobertsonThat's that is an explanation.
1:16:27CB RobertsonI didn't hear what saying. Exactly
1:16:29CB Robertsonthe same way. You're just doing
1:16:30Jay Dyeryour way. Explanation of your account can't be something that's contradictory or something that is negation of the original proposition.
1:16:37Jay DyerSo you you keep going back
1:16:39CB Robertsonand forth between there is objective truth, but there's not.
1:16:42Jay DyerBut there is, but I can't have access to them, but they're just perceptions. This is that's all nonsense.
1:16:46Jay DyerYou can't give a coherent explanation of the most basic things that you're trying to ground your position on, and that's why it's self reviewed.
1:16:54CB RobertsonI I can, but this is I think so I've been studying for
1:16:58Jay Dyera Well, understand you can, but
1:16:59CB Robertsonyou're not going to do It's a debate. Can't do it,
1:17:02Jay Dyerbut you're not going to.
1:17:06CB RobertsonSo I've been studying philosophy for the better part of nine years. And K. So this is irrelevant.
1:17:10Jay DyerWe don't need autobiographical details of how long you studied it.
1:17:13CB RobertsonWhere is the arch?
1:17:17CB RobertsonCan you hear me? How long would it be?
1:17:19Jay DyerDo you hear me appeal to you that?
1:17:25CB RobertsonWould would you like me to to finish the point?
1:17:29Jay DyerWe don't need autobiographical details because those are arguments.
1:17:33Jay DyerSo I don't care if he's studied for the last two or three years.
1:17:37Jay DyerWhere is the argument that justifies the last five minutes of confusion?
1:17:44CB RobertsonI think the argument that justifies the last five minutes of confusion
1:17:47CB Robertsonbegan with my criticism of logos
1:17:51CB Robertsonand the belief
1:17:51Jay Dyerthat not a justification of
1:17:53CB Robertsonthe claims that you just made. Object to
1:17:56CB Robertsonby the claims that
1:17:56Jay Dyeryou just made in the last three to five minutes. That's what I'm looking for. Mhmm. And I'm going back to something to do with logos. It has nothing to do with this.
1:18:06CB RobertsonIt it but it is
1:18:09CB Robertsonis logos. Okay. This is what we've been
1:18:12CB Robertsondoing for the last ten minutes
1:18:14CB Robertsonis the is the, like, the peak distillation
1:18:20CB Robertsonthat the the
1:18:21CB Robertsonthe
1:18:23CB Robertsonthe Ruben's Michelangelo
1:18:25CB Robertsondepiction
1:18:26CB Robertsonof my problem with locus. But but
1:18:28Jay DyerIs that the same position?
1:18:30Jay DyerWe've heard arguments. Right.
1:18:32Jay DyerI boiled down to the the basic epistemic starting points that undercurve your whole logos thing,
1:18:38Jay Dyerand that's contradictory nonsense. And And
1:18:41CB Robertsonso you're
1:18:41Jay Dyeryou're not gonna appeal to the thing that's built on that because you're you're No.
1:18:44CB RobertsonYou you you separate the orthodoxy
1:18:48CB Robertsonfrom your logos as a function of words.
1:18:51Jay DyerAnd I'm asking for your
1:18:53CB RobertsonI wanted, you know, of words. Your epistemology.
1:18:56Jay DyerRight? We talked about mine for thirty minutes, an hour. I'm I'm asking about years now.
1:19:02Jay DyerAnd what I got was total nonsense in the last couple of weeks.
1:19:07Jay DyerCan you give me a coherent explanation of what your episcopal criteria and starting points of case subsistence are? And you said there's no objective truth, but there is, but there's not. Which one is it? I would explain that to you.
1:19:18CB RobertsonAlright. So I I will try one more time.
1:19:22CB RobertsonMy episcopal
1:19:23CB Robertsonmy my belief in how I can know the things that I know is I generally
1:19:29CB Robertsontrust my sense data as best I can while remembering that it's valuable.
1:19:35Jay DyerThat's a Are are these universal truths for everyone or just you?
1:19:41CB RobertsonI I have twenty twenty vision, so I would trust my vision. I don't know how Are the principles of epistemology
1:19:47Jay Dyerthat you're laying out here that you say are yours?
1:19:50Jay DyerAre they do they apply to
1:19:51CB Robertsonall humans, or is this just a purely not a truth?
1:19:54Jay DyerIt's a strategy. So so epistemology doesn't work this way. I thought that's what I'm asking. I'm not sure how it works. And you're saying that it's not is this just objectively
1:20:03Jay Dyerthe case for you, or is this how it works for everybody?
1:20:08CB RobertsonIt is my subjective strategy. Okay.
1:20:10Jay DyerSo it's not in the domain of true claims. It's purely subjective. How are you gonna make an argument about this, about epistemology when it's still in the domain but purely subjective?
1:20:20Jay DyerAnd and if you're gonna find two subjective, then you're not gonna
1:20:23CB RobertsonI try to make I begin by trying to make mental connections
1:20:27CB Robertsonwith the people, and and you can use other people
1:20:31CB Robertsonto sort of echo or locate your way around the world, and conversation is a great tool for doing that. Right? That that that
1:20:38CB Robertsonthat that that
1:20:40CB Robertsonmaking a physiological claims and
1:20:42Jay Dyermetaphysical claims, and I'm
1:20:44CB Robertsonasking for justification for those things.
1:20:46CB RobertsonI get the sense that you're trying to argue against me
1:20:50CB Robertsonin in the in in just just picking out a part of everything rather than listening.
1:20:55Jay DyerNo. This is the kind
1:20:56CB Robertsonof critique that I do. I'm presuppositional
1:20:59CB Robertsoncritique, and we're getting to the root.
1:21:02Jay DyerWe're we're burrowing down to episcopal
1:21:04Jay Dyerprinciple.
1:21:05Jay DyerBecause for us, this is very important. We want to know
1:21:09Jay Dyerwhat the criteria is for truth,
1:21:11Jay Dyerhow you justify your truth claims,
1:21:14Jay Dyerhow you explain the usage of things like language and logic.
1:21:18Jay DyerThat's very important for argumentation.
1:21:20Jay DyerI mean, it's presupposed in a debate. Right? Things like logic.
1:21:23Jay DyerSo, I mean, I believe logic is an objectively true existing metaphysical
1:21:28Jay Dyerontological,
1:21:29Jay Dyerright, abstract principle that under earth things like debate. Now you're
1:21:33CB Robertsonhere to debate. By logic, are we talking about this this vulgarist organizing principle ordering principle, or are you talking about the
1:21:40CB Robertsontechnique in the humanist, know, with
1:21:43Jay Dyerthe key that govern thinking and correct thinking and debate.
1:21:49Jay DyerOkay. So I'm asking you, are those
1:21:51CB Robertsonthings purely subjective, or are
1:21:52Jay Dyerthey ontologically real? Or do they or do they have a real episcopal
1:21:56Jay Dyerapplication to our discussion?
1:21:58CB RobertsonWell, let me try answering the question. Do you think that heuristics
1:22:02CB Robertsonare logically valid?
1:22:05CB RobertsonSure.
1:22:07CB RobertsonWhy?
1:22:10CB RobertsonWell,
1:22:11CB Robertsonhow is this gonna be a justification?
1:22:16CB RobertsonHow is how is the the problem of heuristics,
1:22:20CB Robertsonwhich are required to navigate through the world, yet being logically unreliable?
1:22:24CB RobertsonHow is that Do
1:22:26CB Robertsonyou understand?
1:22:27Jay DyerWhat what when I asked for
1:22:29Jay DyerAgain, I don't think you heard from me. Have you ever had a cosmology class? I'm not trying to be rude or mean. I'm not trying put you on the spot,
1:22:35Jay Dyerbut it's a one of the first things you're gonna have in in class on cosmology is questions about justifying claims, true claims.
1:22:44Jay DyerSo it it really is totally irrelevant, like,
1:22:47CB Robertsonhow it functions in terms
1:22:49Jay Dyerof getting around the world. Like, what does that have to do with the question that I'm asking you about truth claims?
1:22:55Jay DyerIt's a it's an abstract question about logic itself,
1:22:59Jay Dyerjustifying claims,
1:23:01Jay Dyerthe principles of debate,
1:23:03Jay Dyeretcetera. I'm just simply asking you, do you think those things are the case? Do we have to abide for those things? And if not, then then you pretty much have undermined your position.
1:23:14Jay DyerAnd if you do accept Do
1:23:18CB Robertsonyou accept the wrong company?
1:23:21CB RobertsonPerhaps I'm insufficiently
1:23:23CB Robertsoneducated and too blue collar for this.
1:23:26CB RobertsonI'm I'm a construction guy. But, I mean, if you when we see when we see objective reality
1:23:34CB Robertsonand or or some aspect of it and interact with it
1:23:39CB RobertsonYou you just don't give
1:23:40Jay Dyerit because it's not objective reality. I keep getting
1:23:44Jay DyerI'm sorry. I was lost in this in this back and forth.
1:23:48Jay DyerYou said it was object I am lost to your system. That's what I'm trying to understand.
1:23:54Jay DyerI mean, I've known that you think of being a douchebag. That's not what I'm trying to be. I'm not trying to be
1:24:00CB Robertsondouchebag. I'm trying to get to
1:24:01Jay Dyerthe root of
1:24:03Jay DyerI need an explanation or justification in your world view from the things that you're using, like the laws of logic.
1:24:10Jay DyerAnd just saying that, well, we can get around the world for something like this is not a justification.
1:24:15Jay DyerThat's assuming the thing that's in question.
1:24:19CB RobertsonWell, then I I think I'm going to have to actually throw up my hands and plead guilty. I've I've managed to
1:24:25CB Robertsonbe married and and work and get around in the world without No. No. Justify
1:24:31CB RobertsonThat's my perspective of the problem.
1:24:32Jay DyerThat's a misunderstanding
1:24:33Jay Dyerof what the questions are. That's a category error.
1:24:36CB RobertsonAgain, it has nothing to do with the question that
1:24:38Jay DyerI'm asking. It'd be like going into I'm not sure if you were again, I'm not sure if you're a dick, but it'd be like going into a courtroom and saying, oh, that's the argument. Look. He's guilty because, look, there's just there's just a lot of guilt here.
1:24:51Jay DyerRight? And that wouldn't be acceptable in
1:24:53CB Robertsonthe courtroom. Right? So debates, do you believe that debates function on rules?
1:24:58CB RobertsonAnd perhaps this is my fault. I I might have I might have come in here with the wrong mindset of of coming in with a a sort of conversational
1:25:09CB Robertsonmindset rather than a debate mindset. So so my mistake on that front.
1:25:13Jay DyerDidn't you ask me for a debate?
1:25:17CB RobertsonFair
1:25:19CB Robertsonenough. Yes. I did.
1:25:20Jay DyerDidn't I tell you I didn't end the debate? I said I'm going to treat this. Said, I you're gonna think I'm being mean, but I'm just gonna be straight up.
1:25:27Jay DyerSo that's what I thought said at the end.
1:25:29CB RobertsonI misunderstood
1:25:31CB Robertsonthat, and that's on me.
1:25:33CB RobertsonI'll try to touch up for the remainder of this whatever time that I had left.
1:25:39CB RobertsonYeah. No. So
1:25:40CB Robertsonin the courtroom,
1:25:43CB Robertsonto to take your metaphor here, you have, you know, people presenting expert testimony,
1:25:48CB Robertsonfor example. And that that expert testimony can come from a variety of factors. It can be vectors. It can come from you can have a mortician
1:25:57CB Robertsonpresenting their evidence. You could have someone analyzing a video and explaining what happens.
1:26:03CB RobertsonAnd just because something
1:26:04CB Robertsonan explanation
1:26:06CB Robertsonfor
1:26:08CB Robertsonperception,
1:26:09CB Robertsonhow perception works in relation to objective reality, or how language works in relation to objective reality, doesn't conform
1:26:15CB Robertsonto the philosophical
1:26:18CB Robertsonlogos mode of communication,
1:26:21CB Robertsonwhich may or may not be orthodox,
1:26:23CB Robertsonbut whatever you wanna call orthodoxy in relation to logos, that's what philosophy does. That is what philosophy does. It is what philosophical
1:26:32CB Robertsondo.
1:26:34CB RobertsonLike, that mode or just because something doesn't fulfill that mode does not mean it is not functional in the world. And so the reason I was bringing up that model we doing were setting philosophy
1:26:45CB Robertsonwas not to to, you know, beat my chest and my my own
1:26:51CB Robertsonsort of authority on the matter. It's to say, after studying this for
1:26:55CB Robertsonsome time, I'm not I'm not an expert. I don't have a PhD in it or anything,
1:26:59CB Robertsonbut you come to see the shortcomings
1:27:02CB Robertsonof philosophy. You come to see the limitations of philosophy
1:27:05CB Robertsonand of language
1:27:07CB Robertsonas Homer and Wittgenstein
1:27:09CB Robertsondid. And to carry on asking about
1:27:13CB Robertsonjustifications when it was word game,
1:27:16CB Robertsonwhich is based on an adversarial
1:27:18Jay DyerYeah. It's not a word game.
1:27:19CB RobertsonLike But it is a word game. And then the last all the philosophies were
1:27:23Jay DyerThis is where you just lost the debate because if you understood what a debate was and what the rules of debate and logic are, you would know that it's not merely for word again. So what I detect here is a person who has a smattering of philosophy.
1:27:38Jay DyerSo you have a bit of Hegel, a bit of Nietzsche, a bit of Pickenschein. So
1:27:43Jay Dyerfrom that, you think that you can kind of paste together a system of kind of, I don't know, intuitive paganism or whatever it is you you believe that your system is. And I'm saying that it's incoherent because that's not fundamentally what a debate is. A debate is about objective proof.
1:27:58CB RobertsonWho has the better argument and who commits the fallacies,
1:28:01CB Robertsonetcetera, etcetera. Well, if you can persuade you're saying that. If you can persuade the masses, that was
1:28:08CB RobertsonIf you're interested in the truth, you would have known that I wasn't You
1:28:12CB Robertsondenied the court to the opposition. You just denied truth.
1:28:15Jay DyerI mean,
1:28:15CB Robertsonit's the way you're talking about No. I didn't. The truth. And if you cared about listening rather than waiting, you didn't know that. You can't give
1:28:22Jay Dyeran account for truth.
1:28:23Jay DyerThat's what I've been asking.
1:28:26CB RobertsonI would say I would say this is the it would actually add absurdum against
1:28:30CB Robertsonphilosophical
1:28:31CB Robertsondebate
1:28:32CB Robertsonas a mode of pursuing truth because
1:28:35CB Robertsonthe combative approach
1:28:37Jay DyerAnd you just repeat it yourself by coming to debate truth.
1:28:42CB RobertsonWell, that was my fault for
1:28:45CB Robertsonusing using the word debate without checking
1:28:48CB Robertsonmy
1:28:49CB Robertsonmental connection with
1:28:51Jay Dyermy You studied philosophy for nine years, specifically, then you would know what the word debate means.
1:28:57CB RobertsonYeah. But I didn't study you well enough, so that was
1:29:04Jay DyerWell, I don't think that what I'm talking about doing is some unique to me thing. Like, this is the, you know, type of debate that I create. Like, I made this this is what classical debate is. It is what I'm doing. It is when you present. I've done twenty years of debates,
1:29:21Jay Dyerand I'm not saying it to
1:29:22CB Robertsonbe my choice, but I'm saying
1:29:23Jay Dyerthat
1:29:24CB Robertsonif
1:29:24Jay Dyeryou go watch a formal debate,
1:29:26Jay DyerI'm not doing anything different than what you see them do.
1:29:29CB RobertsonNow if you take issue with all of
1:29:30Jay Dyerthat, then that's why I'm gonna
1:29:32CB Robertsonsay to you, more fundamental problem in your epistemology by which you think that it's all word games.
1:29:39CB RobertsonAnd I'm saying that's a self refuted position because if it's all word games, then you're saying it's all word games is a word game, and that's a fundamental contradiction.
1:29:50CB RobertsonIt's a it's it's sort of a pun because
1:29:53CB Robertsonthe and she believed that all
1:29:56CB Robertsonuse of words was word games.
1:29:59CB RobertsonI you just don't know what sort of word. So
1:30:03Jay DyerI'm not saying I don't see how that, like, is gonna aid you in what we're talking about. Like, how does that aid your position? Because,
1:30:10Jay Dyeragain,
1:30:12Jay Dyerthat's what a debate is. There are rules of thought, rules of correct thinking, and we have to abide
1:30:19Jay Dyerthe rules or else you can't even have the debate, much less the conversation. You can't communicate if they need it if there's not rules.
1:30:26CB RobertsonDo you think do you think the rules of correct thinking are universal,
1:30:30CB Robertsonor do you think they might mean Absolutely.
1:30:33CB Robertson100%.
1:30:36CB RobertsonThey wouldn't be they wouldn't be localized then at all?
1:30:39Jay DyerIt wouldn't be No. No.
1:30:41Jay DyerIs a fallacy in America. A fallacy a thousand years ago is a fallacy in Hong Kong.
1:30:48CB RobertsonInteresting.
1:30:51Jay DyerI mean, I'm kinda shocked that you don't think that because it is absurd not to
1:30:56Jay DyerThere
1:30:56CB Robertsonthere are certainly some universal things, but there there's those are great.
1:31:00Jay DyerI don't know. You you would all have a principle by
1:31:02CB Robertsonwhich
1:31:02Jay Dyeryou
1:31:03CB Robertsoncan identify this. Let me let me give you an example. Let me give you
1:31:06Jay Dyera report. Identify this one. What is it?
1:31:09CB RobertsonWell, let
1:31:09Jay Dyerme give you an example. You said some of those things are universally true. I wanna know what the principle is that that allows you to identify them and give an account for that. That's a fundamental epistemic
1:31:20Jay Dyerquestion.
1:31:23CB RobertsonSo I've I've given you my explanation of of language as I understand. And Okay. But you didn't. Was an excellent an explanation.
1:31:31CB RobertsonI'm telling you I'm telling you that principles
1:31:35CB Robertsonare going to be contextual.
1:31:37CB RobertsonThey're going to be based upon an understanding of the person you're speaking with on that
1:31:41Jay DyerIs that usually the case? That it's always contextual.
1:31:46CB RobertsonDo you see how That's the That's the book. Yes. That's what I'm I'm gonna kill on the. No.
1:31:53Jay DyerIt's not. Yes. Is. It's an obvious, flat out on its face
1:31:57CB Robertsonto the flash of contradiction.
1:31:59CB RobertsonYou may So then there's no possibility of distinction or differentiation ever in the world because if anything exists that isn't universal, that would be a contradiction by you.
1:32:08Jay DyerNow you're way off in the in the domain. Has nothing to do
1:32:11CB Robertsonwith what I said. But that's No. That after the sunrise is everything you've done in the last twenty minutes.
1:32:17CB RobertsonIt is any any plainly,
1:32:19CB Robertsonyou have to get universal.
1:32:21CB RobertsonDo you do you know
1:32:22Jay Dyerwhat that means?
1:32:24Jay DyerWhat what I I mean,
1:32:25CB RobertsonI'm not trying to be rude
1:32:26Jay Dyerto you. What I say is that universally case, we're talking about in formal logic.
1:32:30Jay DyerRight? The way the claim itself works, the proposition, do you know what that is referring to when I'm getting at it?
1:32:36CB RobertsonIt's
1:32:38CB Robertsonalways
1:32:39CB Robertsontrue in all places.
1:32:41Jay DyerRight. So you Because of the because of the quantifier.
1:32:44Jay DyerWhen you say that is when you use words like all and every, right, those are universal quantifiers, and so you're you're giving this kind of
1:32:52Jay Dyeruniversal
1:32:53Jay Dyerstatus. It is always the case. Right?
1:32:55CB RobertsonRight. So I'm saying I'm saying the the
1:32:58CB Robertsonwild and assertive and aggressive claim that some things are not true all the time, and some things are different in some places.
1:33:08CB RobertsonNo. That's not what you said.
1:33:09Jay DyerNo. You said there are some universes. That is that
1:33:13Jay Dyeris
1:33:13CB Robertsonwhat I've been saying this whole time.
1:33:15CB RobertsonYou said some universal
1:33:17CB Robertsontruths. If those words have meaning,
1:33:20Jay Dyerin any sense, we would take them to be universal.
1:33:24Jay DyerI wanna know what the principle
1:33:25CB Robertsonis that allows you to know which things what's the criteria to know the things that
1:33:29Jay Dyerare universal and the things that aren't.
1:33:32Jay DyerYou need a coherent criteria.
1:33:35CB RobertsonWell, I think I think all of us are making the best
1:33:40CB Robertsonintuitive guesses that we can That's not and correcting
1:33:45CB Robertsoncorrect him as we have. So you don't have a question. Can imagine a
1:33:50CB Robertsoncase where a philosophical principle
1:33:52CB Robertsonhas led someone astray?
1:33:55CB RobertsonSomeone has deduced an incorrect
1:33:57CB Robertsonbelief.
1:33:57Jay DyerIs that an algorithmic answer to my question?
1:34:01Jay DyerWe're doing the best we can.
1:34:02CB RobertsonThat's that's a that's a pretty old answer. Yeah. No. You're gonna add it. I
1:34:07CB Robertsonthink you're you're I think you're you're underestimating
1:34:10CB Robertsonthe power of the observation.
1:34:12CB RobertsonCan people be misled
1:34:14CB Robertsoninto false beliefs
1:34:16CB Robertsonby true,
1:34:18CB RobertsonI e, logically valid philosophical principles?
1:34:21Jay DyerOh, sure.
1:34:23CB RobertsonSure. Okay. Then what else do you have brought intuition and the willingness to self correct?
1:34:30Jay DyerWell, that's a false either or dichotomy that either have the the possibility of being deceived or we have intuition. Right? I mean, there the the assumption is that you can't have certitude or truth.
1:34:42Jay DyerIt's what it sounds like. And so one thing that the transcendental argument does is that it points out where we can begin to have certitude
1:34:50Jay Dyerin terms of philosophy, in
1:34:52CB Robertsonterms of
1:34:52Jay Dyerepistemology.
1:34:53Jay DyerSo you're appealing back to the fact that we just have to go by intuition as our best guess
1:34:59Jay Dyeris not gonna get you to the universal truths. You say that you're contradicting again. You're saying there's some universal truths.
1:35:06Jay DyerWe just have a best guess approach with intuition,
1:35:09Jay Dyerand it's also possible to be deceived.
1:35:12CB RobertsonSo so I'm gonna there's a gamble. Those things don't work again. Gamble
1:35:16CB Robertsonand and and try this again and go back into a a more conversation.
1:35:21CB RobertsonI don't I don't think, and and I I hope you agree with this, that intuition
1:35:26CB Robertsonand the rules of philosophy and logical thinking, which are excellent tools I'm not trying to deny that they're excellent tools. What I'm saying is that they're insufficient,
1:35:36CB Robertsonand our intuitions will gradually, with time,
1:35:40CB Robertsonbe an with experience
1:35:41CB RobertsonYeah. And discernment.
1:35:43Jay DyerYeah. I need to know insufficient,
1:35:45Jay Dyerthough, but because I'm asking in your system. I know that you think that they're insufficient. I mean, it's have intuition, but you keep saying things that I don't think you realize are
1:35:57Jay Dyerthe formal
1:35:58Jay Dyerclaims about
1:35:59Jay Dyeruniversal states of affairs, and then you try to dial it back. That's exactly what JF does, the debate with JF. He says, well, I'm making universal claims, but they're not universal. They're just truthful.
1:36:09Jay DyerAnd that's what you keep in
1:36:10CB Robertsonmind shifting back and forth between a purely subjective approach and then turning around and stating how it is. What is objective that needs? So I I'm not I I and maybe this is the answer you've been looking for this whole time. I I don't have a system,
1:36:27CB Robertsonbut I do but I'm looking for one. Right? I'm I'm looking to improve
1:36:32CB Robertsonmy worldview
1:36:33CB Robertsonin a in a sort of bottom up rather than top down. And and I guess maybe that's what you're asking for. What's your top down system?
1:36:41CB RobertsonAnd I do have a worldview, but it's more,
1:36:44CB Robertsonfor lack of a better word, organic and bottom up. And I'm I and I guess I would rather have no top down system
1:36:51CB Robertsonthan a fallible top down system.
1:36:55Jay DyerOkay. Well, I mean, fair enough. But, again, I was asking very specific pointed question about
1:37:01Jay Dyerjustify true belief. Right? So if we're gonna talk about claims
1:37:05Jay Dyerand arguments are in debates, arguments are claims or propositions.
1:37:10Jay DyerThey're
1:37:11Jay Dyerpremise conclusion movements that people make,
1:37:14Jay Dyerand they're either valid and sound or they're not valid and not sound. Right? So the fact that you can have a valid argument that is unsound that that these are the two false conclusions is irrelevant to the fact that you can have valid arguments that are sound that do lead people to true conclusions
1:37:30Jay Dyerbecause there is the I mean, debate itself presupposes
1:37:34Jay Dyerlogic
1:37:35Jay Dyeras an abstract
1:37:37Jay Dyerinvariant principle operant and assumed in any debate, and
1:37:40CB Robertsonnot just in debate, also even in interpersonal communication.
1:37:44Jay DyerThere's a logic to that. Science has a logic to it that is invariant, that isn't changing. Things like the law of identity,
1:37:51Jay Dyerthings like induction.
1:37:52Jay DyerRight? All of these things
1:37:53CB Robertsonare are true and everything As a side note, and I think there's a side note here that maybe is relevant to this debate, which is I I've become very skeptical of science recently. Not not the
1:38:06CB Robertsonnot the truth claims that come out of science, although those are often less put in the real world than
1:38:12CB Robertsonnon scientists, but journalists like to imagine,
1:38:15CB Robertsonwho met the spirit undergirding science, the pursuit
1:38:18CB Robertsonof truth
1:38:21CB Robertsonsort of for its own sake.
1:38:23CB RobertsonAnd the difference between an engineer and a scientist is an engineer creates things and pursues truth as a as a means to that end. There's a scientist who occasionally
1:38:33CB Robertsoncreate things, but only as a means to the pursuit of truth.
1:38:37CB RobertsonAnd there's a there's a spirit to that, which I think a lot of people on the I'm assuming we have a predominantly right of center crowd here. Can I assume that?
1:38:49CB RobertsonYeah.
1:38:50CB RobertsonI'm gonna move with that assumption.
1:38:52CB RobertsonHave have come to I think we've come to see the
1:38:57CB Robertsonwhere that is going as far as where
1:39:00CB Robertsonscientists
1:39:01CB Robertsontend to be both politically and spiritually.
1:39:04CB RobertsonAnd not not to be this drawn too much, but I think Nicaea was spot on on this point too in the birth of tragedy and the gay science. I think his
1:39:14CB Robertsonfear of where science would take us towards transhumanism
1:39:17CB Robertsonand the rejection of
1:39:19CB Robertsonhumanity itself
1:39:21CB Robertsonbecause of science's
1:39:22CB Robertsoninherent
1:39:24CB Robertsonrejection of the subjective
1:39:26CB Robertsonas invisible, unimportant, or even nonexistent.
1:39:30CB RobertsonAnd I I hope you
1:39:31Jay Dyercan deny that. That's one, and and I don't I'm happy to agree with you again in the areas where, you know, Nietzsche is correct where I think he makes great points and I would agree with him there.
1:39:42Jay DyerI have read Dietschy pretty successfully. I have a grad class just on Dietschy, so I I don't have any problem agreeing with those principles. But
1:39:49CB RobertsonRight. It
1:39:50Jay Dyerbut but there's a specific domain of philosophy that is not,
1:39:55Jay DyerI don't believe, something that's a word games and just purely subjective, and that's the domain of epistemology.
1:40:00Jay DyerSo it relates directly to
1:40:03Jay Dyerargumentation,
1:40:04Jay Dyerdebate debate presentation,
1:40:06Jay Dyerand what's presupposed or assumed in a person's argumentation.
1:40:10Jay DyerAnd so what I do, what we do in here as rigorous
1:40:13Jay Dyerdebaters is that we look at the arguments and the presuppositions that are underlying a person's case as they're presenting it. And, again, not to be rude, you you came with the presentation of why or are you said that they were arguing because now when I hear argument,
1:40:29Jay DyerI think in a strictly, again, logical and epistemic framework. I wanna know what
1:40:34Jay Dyerwhat the claim is,
1:40:36Jay Dyerwhat the movement of the argument is, whether it's valid, and then whether it's sound. Right? So I
1:40:41CB RobertsonI I I wanna I
1:40:43CB Robertsonwanna apologize for that because I I I apologize. You were. I didn't I didn't I I came prepared for the complete long
1:40:50CB Robertsonmode of conversation.
1:40:52CB RobertsonSo
1:40:53CB Robertsonnope. My bad on research there.
1:40:57CB RobertsonYeah. I but but this we don't relate to the whole spirit of science thing because the one thing I did notice in
1:41:04CB Robertsonyour debates was to fund more of you. I I was thinking more of your debates perhaps so we can talk in a year or two or something, but
1:41:11CB RobertsonI'm slightly more,
1:41:15CB Robertsonyou know, aggressively
1:41:16CB Robertsonprepared for for combat.
1:41:19CB RobertsonOne thing I I noticed is your your concern about solipsism
1:41:23CB Robertsonand your concern about
1:41:27CB Robertsoncertain
1:41:27CB Robertsonthings in Western philosophy tending towards
1:41:31CB Robertsona degradation
1:41:33CB Robertsonand descent into pure solipsism.
1:41:36Jay DyerAnd these are That's a concern. I think that's a there's an identifiable fact of the track of Western philosophy, and that's many people have had that assessment.
1:41:45CB RobertsonRight. Okay. So so more than a concern.
1:41:49CB RobertsonSo
1:41:50CB Robertsonin so far as the spirit of certain
1:41:53CB Robertsonmodes of communication
1:41:56CB Robertsonis inclined towards certain
1:41:59CB Robertsonways of being certain conclusions. The the medium is the message, as Marx and Aquinas say.
1:42:04CB RobertsonAnd so forth, in that vein, that's what Nietzsche was associating science with transhumanism
1:42:10CB Robertsonby.
1:42:12CB RobertsonI would I would
1:42:15CB Robertsonoffer the observation that perhaps the study of epistemology is what leads towards skepticism and end of extreme skepticism
1:42:23CB Robertsonand solipsism.
1:42:24CB RobertsonBecause at the end of the day, epistemologically,
1:42:27CB Robertsonit's the the most defensible position, is it not?
1:42:32Jay DyerNo.
1:42:33Jay DyerAnd that just vindicates everything that I was critiquing in your position the last thirty minutes. I'm not trying to harp on that or go back to that, but what you just said, again, proves the point that I was trying to make the last thirty minutes.
1:42:45CB RobertsonI mean,
1:42:45Jay Dyerit's all says it is absurd. It's stupid.
1:42:51Jay DyerWell And you couldn't even know you couldn't really if it was the case.
1:42:59CB RobertsonWill you?
1:43:02Jay DyerThe fundamental
1:43:03Jay Dyerprinciples of sola system are self refuting.
1:43:08Jay DyerAll reality is a projection of your mind, then the truth that you come to know, the proposition that all reality is a projection of your mind is also part of the projection and also part of the assumption of the illusion. And so therefore, it's fundamentally self refuting,
1:43:22Jay Dyerself contradictory.
1:43:23Jay DyerDo you understand that any world your position that attacks logic as an objective truth and principle will self disrupt.
1:43:32Jay DyerIt's illogical. It's irrational.
1:43:34Jay DyerSo you're on a track a journey into the irrational.
1:43:37Jay DyerRight? Why
1:43:39Jay Dyerwould why would you think that's a viable position?
1:43:42Jay DyerRight? You wanna defend family, you wanna defend nation,
1:43:45Jay Dyerand and dive into irrationality.
1:43:48Jay DyerThat's
1:43:48CB Robertsonabsurd.
1:43:50CB RobertsonI I don't think I don't think appealing to objectivity
1:43:54CB Robertsonas universal
1:43:56CB Robertsonis a way to defend
1:43:57Jay DyerI didn't appeal to it. I show that it's true by reductio.
1:44:02Jay DyerThat's the strength of the transcendental argument.
1:44:04Jay DyerThe solipsis position is self refuting. That's the strongest possible argument you could have that it's not true.
1:44:11CB RobertsonSo
1:44:12CB Robertsonperhaps I'm misunderstanding what you mean by by solipsism. Is is solipsism,
1:44:17CB Robertsonas you're defining it, the the position that the only thing you can know exists in the
1:44:22Jay Dyerworld definition.
1:44:23Jay DyerThis is a well known
1:44:25Jay Dyerposition that many philosophers philosophers have have either fallen into or advocated. Right?
1:44:30CB RobertsonI'm just asking to clarify because some people use solipsism as a synonym for selfishness. I'm
1:44:36Jay DyerNo. I'm talking about the metaphysical philosophical
1:44:39Jay Dyerposition that what exists is a manifestation,
1:44:42Jay Dyerprojection, emanation
1:44:44Jay Dyerphenomena
1:44:45Jay Dyeronly in the mind or of the mind.
1:44:48Jay DyerThe external world is a projection of my mind. That is solipsism.
1:44:52CB RobertsonOh, okay. I see. So so so the belief in the the world is consciousness and specifically my consciousness?
1:45:00Jay DyerTypically, yes.
1:45:02Jay DyerNow
1:45:05Jay Dyersome philosophers
1:45:06Jay Dyerhave had soft cystic positions, which might admit an external world is commonly shared.
1:45:12Jay DyerBut even if you think of somebody like Kant,
1:45:15Jay Dyerright, or Descartes,
1:45:17Jay Dyeryou might admit that, but then turn around and say, but we can't know that. Right? And so Kant, Descartes, these are people who are trapped within their own mind. They don't believe there's an external world
1:45:27Jay Dyerexcept that they think it is the case, but it can't be non approved. Right? Now, again, these are the
1:45:33CB Robertsonabsurd to myself.
1:45:35CB RobertsonAnd I just can I I meant to say skepticism
1:45:37CB Robertsonnot not solipsism in in the defensibility category? Well, those are
1:45:42Jay Dyertwo different totally different things. And
1:45:48Jay Dyerthere's no such thing as a purely skeptical position.
1:45:51Jay DyerThat's also an impossibility.
1:45:56CB RobertsonWell, it doesn't seem like something
1:45:58CB Robertsonbeing launched but impossible stops people from holding it.
1:46:01Jay DyerThat has nothing to do with our true policy. You keep, I I quote, you keep moving back and forth between things that are fallacious and irrelevant and objectively the case.
1:46:11CB RobertsonThe fact that people hold
1:46:12Jay Dyerit to fallacious opinions is a appeal to massive fallacy or appeal to the populace. It doesn't matter how many people hold to any position to determine whether the position is true or false. That has nothing to do with the truth or false.
1:46:28CB RobertsonWho does determine whether it's true or false?
1:46:32Jay DyerThere's objective principles that we have been to. That's the whole point. I understand that.
1:46:37Jay DyerI mean, how could there how could there be any debate? How could there any discussion? How could anybody come to any truth if there wasn't some principle or absolute
1:46:45Jay Dyerthat is truth or objectivity?
1:46:48Jay DyerLike, it it's a transcendental necessity. There has to be objective truth
1:46:53Jay Dyeror else you can't know anything.
1:46:55Jay DyerKnowledge becomes impossible. This is the strength of the transcendental argument.
1:47:01Jay DyerHow do I know that it's the case? Because that the nine eleven destroys the possibility of knowledge, and that's the strongest possible argument.
1:47:09CB RobertsonRight.
1:47:10CB RobertsonThat I think okay. That that right there is our
1:47:14CB RobertsonI think we're disagreement.
1:47:15CB RobertsonI think that's
1:47:16Jay DyerWell, I I think the transcendental argument,
1:47:18CB Robertsonand I've been
1:47:18Jay Dyermaking it for a long time. So
1:47:21CB RobertsonYeah. I I think knowledge is possible. Present. Well, you said you listen to the,
1:47:25Jay Dyeryou know, stuff on and. That's what I was thinking about.
1:47:28CB RobertsonAbsolutely.
1:47:29CB RobertsonRight. So I I think that I
1:47:32CB Robertsonthink that knowledge is possible
1:47:34CB Robertsonwithout
1:47:35CB Robertsonlogic.
1:47:37CB RobertsonRight?
1:47:37Jay DyerAnd And that's absurd. That's just on the face of it absurd, and and I'm not frightening me. I just don't think you have no idea
1:47:42CB Robertsonwhat you're So so okay. So so perhaps you have a better word for what I'm about to describe here. So
1:47:50CB Robertsona child comes into the world
1:47:53CB Robertsonwith a certain set of instincts that are particularly
1:47:56CB Robertsonwell suited for
1:47:58CB Robertsonits
1:47:59CB Robertsonsurvival and success.
1:48:01CB RobertsonRight? And replace human with other animal. It doesn't really matter. And will it be perfect in all instances? No.
1:48:09CB RobertsonBut it's it comes through the world
1:48:13CB Robertsonknowing,
1:48:13CB Robertsonfor lack of a better word, and comes from the blank with a better word, if you have one,
1:48:18CB Robertsonwhat to do in certain
1:48:20CB Robertsoncircumstances?
1:48:21CB RobertsonA baby knows
1:48:23CB Robertsonhow to find its mother's noble, for example.
1:48:26CB RobertsonIs there a and that's not the byproduct of logic.
1:48:30CB RobertsonWhat would we call that?
1:48:33Jay DyerWell, first of all, it is the byproduct of a kind of logic because it's at least an instinctual
1:48:39Jay Dyerprogram that's present in
1:48:41CB Robertsonknowledge of logic is not necessary. That's a word and you know it. Excuse me?
1:48:46CB RobertsonThat's a word game, and you know it.
1:48:48Jay DyerSo that's the part of the on saying that because that's the case that the child doesn't need to know logic, that therefore there is no logic that undercuts his action. I mean I mean
1:48:58CB Robertsonso you're
1:48:59CB Robertsonsaying DNA So you're saying logic logic was necessary.
1:49:03CB RobertsonKnow what you're saying? We don't need film.
1:49:05Jay DyerThe the the fact that a baby does that is part of his programming.
1:49:10Jay DyerRight? This is what DNA is. DNA is information. That's logic here.
1:49:17CB RobertsonSo so so you're
1:49:19CB Robertsonlet me see if I understand this correctly. You're saying that logic is still necessary.
1:49:23CB RobertsonWe just don't need to have access to that logic to know things.
1:49:28Jay DyerYeah. Can you use an iPhone without
1:49:30Jay Dyerknowing everything about the
1:49:33Jay Dyeran
1:49:33CB RobertsonASIC and the technology?
1:49:35CB RobertsonIs
1:49:36CB Robertsonthat the knowledge
1:49:37CB Robertsonwithout
1:49:39CB Robertsonokay. Knowledge without logic to do with the Correct.
1:49:42Jay DyerThe status of logic.
1:49:44Jay DyerSo you you keep making these bad arguments that have nothing to do with the objective status of the things themselves.
1:49:51Jay DyerThe fact that the baby does that without knowing about it is irrelevant to the question of what the logic or what the abstract is that these are objects themselves are.
1:49:59CB RobertsonDo you not see the difference there? Logic is as as you're describing here, logic is just a static
1:50:05CB Robertsonstate of being in the universe,
1:50:08CB Robertsonwhether that's a relationship. I believe that well, no.
1:50:11CB RobertsonLogic is an abstract immaterial invariant thing. Right?
1:50:16CB RobertsonThey're are
1:50:18CB Robertsonsaid
1:50:20CB RobertsonI
1:50:21CB Robertsondo
1:50:25CB RobertsonHello? We're in a brief.
1:50:26CB RobertsonCan you hear me?
1:50:28Jay DyerYeah. Go ahead.
1:50:30CB RobertsonSo so I just said it's static, but you said no. It's in variant. So we are in agreement. Right? Well, it's static.
1:50:37CB RobertsonUnderstanding. So that
1:50:38Jay Dyeris something I don't want That might have What? That might have connotations as well I qualify it. Right? Because somebody might believe that it's static or you might be a like, if a person was a blateness, they might think that it's static and it exists
1:50:51Jay Dyerin some other realm that is an operant in the here and now that it is. Right? So it's static, but it's also a present in the here and the now, but it's not subject to change. Right? The number seven doesn't become present. The the value for our knowledge is in its reliability.
1:51:06Jay DyerNo. Again, you keep confusing pragmatic
1:51:09Jay Dyerusage
1:51:11Jay Dyerwith the status of the things themselves.
1:51:13Jay DyerThat's a different question. I'm asking,
1:51:15Jay Dyerwhat is logic itself? What are numbers? That's the question I asked this. Right? He said the number seven, I guess, is seven coconuts. That's dumb. Right? Because I the number seven is not seven
1:51:28Jay Dyercoconuts. The number seven is something other than seven coconuts. It's more than seven coconuts, which is why it doesn't change. Where is it? What is it? That is the question about object.
1:51:38Jay DyerIt's a metaphysics question. It's an epistemology question.
1:51:45Jay DyerAlright. So the world, you have to give an account for those things. You have to get an account for numbers,
1:51:50Jay Dyerlogically, these things that we use. It's not word games. They're real things.
1:51:57CB RobertsonNo. I I I'm aware of of concepts.
1:52:02Jay DyerI'm not saying it's merely a concept.
1:52:04Jay DyerIt's more than merely a concept in your head.
1:52:07Jay DyerRight? Because the concept No.
1:52:09Jay DyerIt's more than just a concept.
1:52:12CB RobertsonI mean, everybody with the bonus aren't equal to seven coconuts is
1:52:16CB Robertsonwhy seven is a concept, though.
1:52:18Jay DyerOkay. And I'm asking about the objective metaphysical
1:52:22Jay Dyerexistence
1:52:23Jay Dyerof concepts or abstract objects. Right? Concepts are in the mind, but are they only in the mind? K. This would have been for a metaphysical question.
1:52:32CB RobertsonIt's going back to our we've heard those conversation about words only in the mind. And I I I believe tends to believe that they are.
1:52:40Jay DyerGood. So now you're appealing to things that you can't know in your system. You're making universal metaphysical claims again,
1:52:47Jay Dyerwhich I called out.
1:52:48CB RobertsonYou're
1:52:50CB Robertsonnot I didn't I didn't qualify that.
1:52:52Jay DyerOkay. And
1:52:54Jay DyerI asked if that was the case
1:52:57Jay Dyerfor the state of affairs for everybody,
1:52:59Jay Dyeris that how all human rights work, or do you know?
1:53:05CB RobertsonI I don't know. I I have a reasonable guess.
1:53:08Jay DyerOkay. So now you're in a subjectivity position,
1:53:11Jay Dyerwhich you were saying you were defending solipsic.
1:53:15CB RobertsonI I I never defended solipsism.
1:53:18CB RobertsonOkay.
1:53:20Jay DyerWell, you didn't know it was. You said skepticism. Right? So, again, I can't
1:53:24CB RobertsonI I I asked hypothetically
1:53:26CB Robertsonif there was a danger in focusing so much on epistemology,
1:53:30CB Robertsonif extreme skepticism
1:53:31CB Robertsonbut I misused the word solace in there. If extreme skepticism, which I hope you would also be worried about,
1:53:38CB Robertsonyou would be in danger of empowering that
1:53:41CB RobertsonWe would find a mode
1:53:43Jay Dyerof debate. K. My point is that my point is that Christianity has a different metaphysic
1:53:50Jay Dyerthat is very
1:53:52Jay Dyerlayered.
1:53:53Jay DyerIt is very expansive.
1:53:55Jay DyerIt is very grandiose,
1:53:57Jay Dyerit's very consistent and very coherent, and it can give an account for how there's different layers and levels to reality, how there are abstract objects that don't change but yet interact in this world. And the mind of God is one of the things that that functions to solve in terms of problems. Right? The mind of God is where you can say those things are encapsulated
1:54:16Jay Dyeror howls or how these things are strung together or held together.
1:54:20Jay DyerAnd so the world operates in a regular pattern of what's called a philosophy induction, the regularity of nature. So I see because of divine providence, because God created the world to do that. It operates in a coherent way because there's a mind that's omniscient behind that created order, and that created order includes different types of principles. Right? There's moral law, which I begin the whole discussion with, natural law, and there's the one law. Right? There's also laws or logos, you could say, metaphysical principles that are operating every creation or the preacher and then every relation,
1:54:57Jay Dyerlogic,
1:54:58Jay Dyermathematics,
1:54:58Jay Dyerall of those things are examples of logos for us. So for us, it's their metaphysics.
1:55:04Jay DyerThey relate to epistemology.
1:55:06Jay DyerRight? So I was given an explanation and overview of our metaphysics.
1:55:10Jay DyerAnd when I asked you, it's not to try to make you mad or to call you out. It's to get you to give an account for these metaphysical things,
1:55:20Jay Dyerand it doesn't work to give an account for them to do an explanation for them to justification them to turn around and appeal to things
1:55:27Jay Dyerthat
1:55:28Jay Dyernegate
1:55:29Jay Dyerjustification,
1:55:30Jay Dyerthat negate universality,
1:55:32Jay Dyerlike subjectivism,
1:55:34Jay Dyersolipsism,
1:55:35Jay Dyerskepticism.
1:55:36Jay DyerRight? All of those things are contrary to what it means to give an account for to justify something, to justify a claim.
1:55:43Jay DyerRight? Because every we all know that if I just came to the discussion, I said, well,
1:55:48Jay Dyerlook, I I know that my arguments are
1:55:50CB Robertsonright because you're a shitty person.
1:55:53Jay DyerWould we all agree that that's a bad argument?
1:55:56Jay DyerIt's an ad hominem argument. Right?
1:55:59Jay DyerSo
1:56:00Jay Dyerit's objectively the case
1:56:03Jay Dyerthat that's a false,
1:56:04Jay Dyerbad, invalid move in a debate.
1:56:08Jay DyerRight? That's why there are objective rules that govern logic,
1:56:12Jay Dyerargumentation,
1:56:13Jay Dyercritical thinking, and debate
1:56:15Jay Dyeris because it's impossible
1:56:17Jay Dyerwithout those objective rules.
1:56:19Jay DyerIf it's purely subjective, if we're all skeptics, if it's just word games, then all I have to do is come to the table and have a better rhetorical flair.
1:56:27Jay DyerThe most jokes, the most mama jokes, the most insults,
1:56:31Jay Dyerand I win the debate. And that's not
1:56:33CB Robertsona debate. Right? That's why I guess logical chess moves.
1:56:39Jay DyerThat's what chess works on the principles of logic. Chess is a highly logical game.
1:56:45Jay DyerSo that also illustrates my point. Right? You can't move the chess pieces any way you want. Right?
1:56:53Jay DyerNor can you in a debate just do whatever you want.
1:56:56Jay DyerTherefore, debate assumes
1:56:58Jay Dyerobjective and their hands immaterial
1:57:01Jay Dyerlogical laws, principles, concepts, etcetera.
1:57:05Jay DyerThat is perfectly okay
1:57:07Jay Dyerand valid for me to ask you, can you give account for those things In your world view.
1:57:13Jay DyerIf you're gonna use these things in a debate,
1:57:15Jay Dyerin an argument,
1:57:17Jay DyerI wanna know how you get the account for it. Christianity can give account for those things. Now you may not like it. You're not agreeing with it, but you can't give an account. It makes a coherent account.
1:57:27Jay DyerAnd so my argument is just that. My argument is that the pagan worldview
1:57:31Jay Dyercan't give an account for
1:57:33CB RobertsonNo. Those principles
1:57:35CB Robertsonthat it.
1:57:48CB RobertsonStill fairly new to this. I do have to remember I wrote in the as
1:57:52CB RobertsonPentatech as a a practicing official,
1:57:54CB Robertsonactually. So I'm I'm still learning about the sort of
1:58:00CB Robertsonwhat sorts of of superhuman forces are out there. But I I'm I'm coming to the end of my my endurance for this, so I'll
1:58:09CB Robertsonif if I could, I'd like to say a few words, and then maybe Okay. Put the I don't know. The final word here.
1:58:16Jay DyerYeah. I mean, I I would I would like to, if you would if you would, I would like you to, before we close, address that point that I just made because that's really the the locus of my argument,
1:58:26Jay Dyeris that if you're gonna use these things, I'd like to hear how you can account for that in your opinion.
1:58:32CB RobertsonIf there's
1:58:33CB Robertsonone thing,
1:58:34CB Robertsonif there's one thing I think this debate proves is that I can't address that to to your satisfaction.
1:58:42CB RobertsonIf if it's the one thing this debate has shown and I I want to apologize not just to you, but also to your audience for for coming here.
1:58:50CB RobertsonNot unprepared so much as misprepared
1:58:53CB Robertsonfor for exactly. And that and that was my fault. I did, James, write. I did use the word debate.
1:59:00CB RobertsonNaively. I feel
1:59:02CB Robertsonsomewhat silly for using the word naive so the entire thing.
1:59:06CB RobertsonThe whole conversation
1:59:08CB Robertsonwithout logos and I nos. It
1:59:11CB Robertsonfeels ironic that I'm a victim of my own
1:59:16CB Robertsonconcept there.
1:59:18CB RobertsonBut I'll I'll close with a few a few complementary words about orthodoxy
1:59:23CB Robertsonand maybe maybe a concern. Right? One of my favorite as I mentioned before, one of my favorite books
1:59:29CB Robertsonabout
1:59:30CB RobertsonChristianity,
1:59:31CB Robertsonfull stop, is the way of the pilgrim.
1:59:34CB RobertsonThere's a man he's he's not even really reading the bible. He comes across one passage
1:59:39CB Robertsonthat talks about prayer without ceasing,
1:59:42CB RobertsonAnd he's confused by this, and so he goes around asking,
1:59:46CB Robertsonand he learns the internal prayer of the heart.
1:59:49CB RobertsonAnd
1:59:51CB Robertsonhe studies this, and he does this repeatedly. He's not even reading his bible that much. He's just praying
1:59:57CB Robertsonwithout ceasing in time of his breath, and it transforms him in a in a in a kind of lovely way, at least from the Christian perspective.
2:00:05CB RobertsonAnd that departure
2:00:08CB Robertsonfrom the legalism and the law of Judaism and Islam was always what appealed to me about the spirit of Christianity,
2:00:18CB Robertsonnot so much as paganism, of course, but but
2:00:21CB Robertsonabove the other monotheisms
2:00:23CB Robertsonout there.
2:00:24CB RobertsonAnd
2:00:25CB RobertsonI I guess I would reiterate my
2:00:28CB Robertsonstory about being surrounded by all those people who
2:00:32CB Robertsondo care about the truth of their relationship with their own
2:00:38CB Robertsontheir own creator.
2:00:39CB RobertsonAnd if Christianity does wind up to maturity and I can't predict the future, there's a good chance four or five years from now I might find myself in a church somewhere. It's
2:00:49CB Robertsonnot impossible,
2:00:50CB Robertsonbut
2:00:51CB Robertsonit's it's not going to be because of this. It's not going to be because of this
2:00:57CB Robertsonspirit of the law,
2:00:59CB Robertsonthis spirit of of
2:01:01CB Robertsonlegalism and
2:01:04CB Robertsonlogical order,
2:01:05CB Robertsonwhich sounds so
2:01:07CB Robertsonsounds so
2:01:10CB Robertsoncomforting.
2:01:11CB RobertsonIt sounds so, like
2:01:13CB Robertsonlike,
2:01:14CB Robertsonsafe
2:01:15CB Robertsonto be in that
2:01:18CB Robertsonin in under the protection of logic and under the protection of the logic of words.
2:01:23CB RobertsonRight? But but that feels exactly antithetical to the most beautiful aspects
2:01:30CB Robertsonof Christianity.
2:01:31CB RobertsonAnd I think this mode of debate, which, again, my apologies for preparing for the wrong conversation,
2:01:38CB Robertsonmight not be in line with Christianity itself
2:01:42CB Robertsonon the at least as I have read it,
2:01:45CB Robertsoneven within the Orthodox tradition.
2:01:48Jay DyerWell, in response to that, I would say, it's simply not the case. The fact that there are
2:01:55Jay Dyerthe most
2:01:56Jay Dyerelevated mystics like Saint Gregory of Palamas,
2:01:59Jay Dyerwho were also the most vociferous debaters of their day. I think this proves that. So,
2:02:05Jay DyerI mean, the Palamite, the Hesacast,
2:02:07Jay Dyerpart Exelantes
2:02:08Jay Dyercomposed numerous treatises
2:02:11Jay Dyerbased around Apotheistic logic, which is our Sicilian logic,
2:02:15Jay Dyersuch as apotheistic treatise on the holy spirit
2:02:18Jay Dyeragainst the Roman Catholics, which we promote often here.
2:02:23Jay DyerIt's it's one just simple,
2:02:26Jay Dyerjust brief of that claim.
2:02:28Jay DyerThat's a dialectical opposition that orthodoxy is fundamentally opposed to. The idea that there's something in the church that's fundamentally opposed to something else in the church, that the bible is fundamentally opposed to mystical prayer, that the liturgy is fundamentally opposed to scripture.
2:02:45Jay DyerThese are protestant presuppositions
2:02:47Jay Dyerthat you have about orthodoxy. And I'm not trying to make you feel bad or berate you for that because
2:02:53Jay DyerI come from a Protestant background, so I I had a lot of the same types of misconceptions.
2:02:59Jay DyerThere was a time when I thought that having eye problems
2:03:01CB RobertsonNot
2:03:03CB Robertsonnot to to interrupt, but I thought there was an orthodox preconception
2:03:07CB Robertsonof orthodoxy.
2:03:08CB RobertsonI got it from reading the book.
2:03:12Jay DyerI'm saying that your reading of the book and saying that that's somehow
2:03:17Jay Dyerin contra in contradiction to the notion of objective debate
2:03:21Jay Dyeris disproven by many of our greatest myths we debate.
2:03:30Jay DyerI mean, the peace of prayer is right at miss Palamas.
2:03:33Jay DyerRight? Segurian Palamas wrote
2:03:36Jay Dyermany many many theological debates and treatises.
2:03:39Jay DyerRight? We we promote them all the time here,
2:03:42Jay Dyerand most of the church fathers engaged in rigorous debate.
2:03:46Jay DyerSo I'm just pointing out that these are you're you're putting up where your
2:03:51Jay Dyerassumed dialectical
2:03:53Jay Dyeropposition between law
2:03:55Jay Dyerand prayer, between
2:03:57Jay DyerJudaic
2:03:58Jay Dyertradition in the bible and
2:04:00Jay DyerJesus and the mystics. Right? I mean, those are all pre Protestant assumptions about
2:04:05Jay Dyerorthodoxy.
2:04:07Jay DyerSo you and I'm not sure you're rude, but, I mean, you don't know orthodoxy better than everybody else in here
2:04:12Jay Dyerjust from reading
2:04:14Jay Dyerthe Pilgrim book.
2:04:20Jay DyerSo I'm trying to tell you that it's a more accurate
2:04:23Jay Dyerportrayal to study, but we don't believe that there's a these dialectal tensions between things like prayer,
2:04:29Jay Dyerthe bible,
2:04:30Jay Dyerlaw,
2:04:31Jay Dyerand grace. Right? Those are Protestant presuppositions
2:04:34Jay Dyerthat are not true in orthodoxy.
2:04:36Jay DyerThere's no fundamental tension between
2:04:40Jay Dyerlaw and doctrine, between grace and free will, between
2:04:44Jay Dyermystical prayer and logic
2:04:47Jay Dyerbecause they're all summed up in the logos. So we have a very different metaphysics than what I'm trying to say.
2:04:52Jay DyerAnd
2:04:53Jay DyerI thank you for coming. I welcome
2:04:55Jay Dyeryou're welcome to stay and continue, you know, chatting any other time. We're we're in here all the time. So
2:05:01Jay Dyerit was a good discussion. That was the most simple and
2:05:05Jay Dyernuanced
2:05:06Jay Dyerdiscussion
2:05:07Jay Dyerwith
2:05:08Jay Dyersomeone from the pagan perspective. I I definitely think that was the case. I mean, I've had, I don't know, three or four pagan debates, and it was really enjoyable to have this exchange. So I hope you didn't take any of the rigorous sort of
2:05:21Jay Dyercritique
2:05:22Jay Dyeras anything to do personally with you.
2:05:25CB RobertsonWell, I
2:05:27CB RobertsonI don't wanna I don't wanna give Paganism a bad thing, sort of, like, I'm a any sort of spokesman
2:05:33CB Robertsonfor for Paganism. I'm still
2:05:36CB Robertsonlearning this stuff. I I feel like it's a lot harder
2:05:40CB Robertsonbut but not on the humicants
2:05:42CB Robertsonthat were
2:05:43CB Robertsonyou know, he was writing about.
2:05:47CB RobertsonRight. Well, I have a good friend who's
2:05:49CB Robertsona very close
2:05:51CB Robertsonfather deacon,
2:05:52Jay Dyerdoctor Anais. He's actually professor.
2:05:56Jay DyerHe's an orthodox
2:05:57Jay Dyercleric deacon
2:05:59Jay Dyerand a professor of cosmology and logic.
2:06:02Jay DyerAnd he's a he's a really cool guy. He's not gonna be rude.
2:06:06Jay DyerFather deacon, would you like to say anything
2:06:09Jay Dyerin in closing after not hearing this exchange? What your
2:06:13CB Robertsonyour takeaways?
2:06:15CB RobertsonI want to
2:06:16Fr. Ananiascommend you on
2:06:18Fr. Ananiasyour silliness
2:06:20Fr. Ananiasand
2:06:24Fr. AnaniasI really commend you on that.
2:06:25CB RobertsonIn fact,
2:06:27CB Robertsonyou know,
2:06:28Fr. Ananiasyou have a good character.
2:06:29Fr. AnaniasI think that's important in these sorts of discussions.
2:06:33Fr. AnaniasSo I think they came in probably across to everybody,
2:06:37Fr. Ananiasso that's something we can appreciate.
2:06:39Fr. AnaniasAnd
2:06:41Fr. Ananiasyeah.
2:06:42Fr. AnaniasAnd
2:06:44Fr. Ananiasyeah. You notice
2:06:47Fr. Ananiasone thing we noticed in
2:06:49Fr. Ananiasall these kinds of debates is we obviously all have beliefs.
2:06:55CB RobertsonWe all
2:06:57Fr. Ananiastell kind of stories about how things work
2:07:00Fr. Ananiasand what we really wanna see is is it true?
2:07:05Fr. AnaniasWhat would be the reasons for that, I. The justifications and how would we know that? So I think, Jenny, you did a good job on
2:07:13Fr. Ananiaskind of
2:07:15Fr. Ananiasdigging down,
2:07:16Fr. Ananiaspushing the question mark. You know, we take and all of us are are guilty of this.
2:07:22Fr. AnaniasWe take
2:07:24Fr. Ananiasso many things for granted,
2:07:26Fr. Ananiasand the one thing that's really nice about philosophy,
2:07:28Fr. Ananiasspeaking of the conscion,
2:07:30Fr. Ananiasis that he says, you know, the problem is that people just don't put the question mark mark down far enough.
2:07:36Fr. AnaniasAnd,
2:07:38Fr. Ananiasyou know, we really do wanna get to the bottom
2:07:40Fr. Ananiasof things
2:07:42Fr. Ananiasand
2:07:43Fr. Ananiaswe wanna have the actual justifications
2:07:46Fr. Ananiasand not only just true beliefs,
2:07:49Fr. Ananiasbut the reasons for that, and I think that
2:07:54Fr. Ananiaswe forget that. I noticed this in a lot of debates
2:07:59Fr. Ananiasthat I do
2:08:00Fr. Ananiasis,
2:08:01Fr. Ananiasyou know, let's say the opponent won't call the other person out, that we just grant our opponents
2:08:08Fr. Ananiasbeliefs
2:08:09Fr. Ananiasthat we may actually hold,
2:08:12Fr. Ananiasbut our
2:08:13Fr. Ananiasthe opponent doesn't justify
2:08:15Fr. Ananiasthat.
2:08:16Jay DyerWell, how do we know that?
2:08:17Fr. AnaniasAgain, these are the things that we wanna know. How
2:08:20Fr. Ananiasare we justified in action? Do we have good reasons to hold that? And so, Jay, I think you did an excellent job on that. But I was you know, I think that's in a debate you don't want to give your
2:08:34Fr. Ananiasand this doesn't mean or anything like that. It's just a kind of
2:08:36CB Robertsonformal rules of debate.
2:08:38Fr. AnaniasWhen you get better at debate, you don't wanna give your opponent
2:08:43Fr. Ananiasanything that's not actually justified
2:08:45Fr. Ananiasor actually prudent.
2:08:47Fr. AnaniasWe
2:08:48Fr. Ananiasoften do slip in debates like that and we we grant our opponents too much, but think about it, it's a lot like a chess game. Right? You don't want
2:08:57Fr. Ananiasto grant your opponent Yeah.
2:09:00Fr. AnaniasCertain things like that. And that's not to say that
2:09:04Fr. Ananiasthe purpose of debate is to win.
2:09:07Fr. AnaniasThe purpose of debate
2:09:08Fr. Ananiasis to
2:09:10Fr. Ananiasmay the truth
2:09:13Fr. Ananiasstand true,
2:09:15Fr. Ananiasit should be able to pass the scrutiny of these sorts of tests.
2:09:20Fr. AnaniasAnd
2:09:20Fr. Ananiasthat's what's amazing about the human condition
2:09:24Fr. Ananiasand the human being is we have a deep desire
2:09:28Fr. Ananiasto actually want to know. And I think you see this first
2:09:31Fr. Ananiasand foremost in children, it's unfortunate that
2:09:35Fr. AnaniasI think children are really full of salt when they really wanna know and then unfortunately, the world and adults tell them like, well, that's a stupid question. Stop asking questions and stuff like that.
2:09:45Fr. AnaniasBut anyways, for whatever it's worth,
2:09:48Fr. AnaniasI think we should keep that
2:09:50Fr. Ananiasthat spirit up.
2:09:52Fr. AnaniasKeep pushing the question mark down far enough
2:09:56Fr. Ananiasthat we actually get the justifications for the beliefs
2:10:00Fr. Ananiasthat we're holding
2:10:01CB Robertsonto be true.
2:10:04CB RobertsonWell, thank you, You're welcome too.
2:10:06Jay DyerAgain, like I said, stay around and chat anytime and Yeah.
2:10:10Fr. AnaniasSee if you need to be yeah. I we really do appreciate the
2:10:14Fr. Ananiasyour terribleness
2:10:16Fr. Ananiasand
2:10:19Jay Dyerjust overall good. So do us a gooder. I'll put a link to your to your website and all that when I put this up.
2:10:26Jay DyerThank you.
2:10:26CB RobertsonAnd I I appreciate thanks. And and I guess I can see that I walked into a a community that
2:10:33CB Robertsonstrongly believes someone
2:10:35CB Robertsonwho in the conversation mentioned
2:10:39CB Robertsonor or someone
2:10:41CB Robertsonelse that the the adversarial
2:10:43CB Robertsonmethod
2:10:45CB Robertsonfor pursuing
2:10:47CB Robertsontruth. And I can I can respect that? I've been I've been operating
2:10:51CB Robertsonin a in a sort of participatory
2:10:55CB Robertsonone where where where me and my debate adversary are working together against the chess computer rather than playing both sides of the board against each other. So,
2:11:05CB Robertsonagain, my apologies for coming in with the wrong mindset there. No.
2:11:09Jay DyerWell, we just we see formal reasoning, formal debate logic as
2:11:14Jay Dyerthat that's not the same thing as being adversary.
2:11:17Jay DyerIt's it's just the laws and rules of that domain.
2:11:24Fr. AnaniasLike, there's other times we'll have kind of like Socratic discussions. It just depends on
2:11:29Fr. Ananiaswhat's being set up,
2:11:32Fr. AnaniasThe purpose
2:11:54Jay DyerAlright. Well, anything else you wanna
2:11:56Jay Dyerleave before before we close out?
2:12:01CB RobertsonNot
2:12:02CB Robertsonparticularly.
2:12:03CB RobertsonI'll
2:12:05CB RobertsonI think we we might have to have the
2:12:08CB Robertsonthe the conversation
2:12:10CB Robertsonabout justifying
2:12:11CB Robertsonbelief of God,
2:12:13CB Robertsonspeaking of justifying beliefs,
2:12:15CB Robertsonand then the other time Okay. Yeah. I think
2:12:18Jay Dyerthat I think that's fine.
2:12:19CB RobertsonI'll I'll have to do that.
2:12:21CB RobertsonGonna I'm gonna add
2:12:22Fr. Ananiasone other thing too. Okay.
2:12:27Fr. AnaniasSee, did
2:12:29Fr. Ananiasnot only do we, you know, we might do this to another person's position,
2:12:33Fr. AnaniasI do this in my own positions.
2:12:36Fr. AnaniasI'll
2:12:37Fr. Ananiasactually
2:12:38Fr. Ananiasgo through and Jane knows this too, especially when I work with epistemology.
2:12:44Fr. AnaniasI'll try to take an argument
2:12:47Fr. Ananiasand then find this I'll play the the objector.
2:12:52Fr. AnaniasRight? Like, okay. I've gotta actually destroy this argument.
2:12:55CB RobertsonI've got to break it down.
2:12:57Fr. AnaniasBecause
2:12:58Fr. Ananiasthen I'm trying to
2:13:00Fr. AnaniasI'm like, well, if it's gonna work, if it's true, it's gonna be justified. Like, it needs to pass this, like, these kinds of tests, and so I'll take in that kind of an adversary
2:13:12Fr. Ananiasas far as arguments towards my own arguments and I'm like, is what this person's gonna say here and this is what
2:13:20Fr. Ananiasso it's not just a position tactic and methodology that we would take towards others arguments,
2:13:26Fr. AnaniasI do it to my own arguments. And in the past, if it fails, then I realize, okay. It wasn't a good argument. There was something wrong. As you
2:13:33CB Robertsondo it. As you do it if you if you have it as much, but you have to.
2:13:41Fr. AnaniasWell, I may even have banned it and be like, you know what? The I found a fan. It's not I'm not I'm not gonna use that argument. Banned it.
2:13:50Fr. AnaniasI'll
2:13:52Fr. Ananiaseven take it to,
2:13:55Fr. Ananiaslike, the very best kind of philosophers out there, their opponents.
2:14:00Fr. AnaniasAnd I
2:14:01Fr. Ananiaswant them to tear apart.
2:14:03Fr. AnaniasAt least attempt to
2:14:05Fr. Ananiasif it's been passed as bad, then I'm like, okay. It's a good it's a good argument. This is actually a good justification.
2:14:11Fr. AnaniasIf it doesn't, I don't wanna hold something that's not good or true.
2:14:17Fr. AnaniasSo I treat I treat myself that way too.
2:14:20CB RobertsonWell, and that's that's the that's the
2:14:23CB Robertsonposition I have as well, although it's not necessarily the method
2:14:29CB RobertsonI've taken, and and perhaps that's a failure on my part. But but, yeah, the the like, there's no point in finding this if it's
2:14:37CB Robertsonif it's
2:14:38CB Robertsonit's not true. Whether that's Christianity or paganism or Islam
2:14:43CB Robertsonor
2:14:44CB Robertsonhumanism or whatever it is.
2:14:51CB RobertsonI think I have a question. Or
2:14:54CB RobertsonYes, sir.
2:14:55CB RobertsonIs
2:14:56CB Robertsonanything forbidden or something?
2:14:59CB RobertsonYeah. I I just have a question because I don't know about this one because I'm so confused. I don't know what that is.
2:15:04Fr. AnaniasWell, to getting without my approval on matchmaking,
2:15:08Fr. Ananiasabsolutely.
2:15:09Fr. AnaniasI want you to make checks payable to
2:15:12Fr. Ananiasno. Of course, it is not.
2:15:18Fr. AnaniasOf course, stating it is is allowed.
2:15:23CB RobertsonLike, having So you
2:15:24Fr. Ananiaswere thinking as
2:15:26Fr. Ananiasyeah. So you were thinking as opposed to, like, actual, like, matchmaking or something, like, being signed?
2:15:33Fr. AnaniasYeah.
2:15:34Fr. AnaniasYeah. Of course,
2:15:35Fr. Ananiasdating's
2:15:37Fr. Ananiasa lot and even in work the box countries
2:15:39CB Robertsonin which there are
2:15:40Fr. Ananiasmatchmaking,
2:15:43Fr. Ananiasit's usually not what you think.
2:15:46Fr. AnaniasThe people always have a choice
2:15:49Fr. Ananiasthat they're just