Jay Dyer vs Pastor P Debate Orthodoxy vs Protestantism, Sola Scriptura and Church History

0:00Jay DyerYes. So is it cons like, if so if we all just have a consensus that two plus two is five, does it make it five?

0:06Pastor POkay. I

0:08Pastor Plove that. That was actually something I had written down.

0:11AndrewHeard him say it myself.

0:13AndrewPastor p, you're brand new to the channel. Happy to see you here. Take a quick second. Introduce yourself.

0:20AndrewI don't know if you have any social media to shout out, but maybe tell people just a bit about you.

0:24Pastor PYeah. I don't have any social media to shout out. I I believe I will.

0:29Pastor PI've been a pastor for fifty years in ministry. I should say I've I've been in ministry for fifty years. Twenty five years of that was in

0:37Pastor Pas a pastor, and then the last twenty five years has been as a missionary,

0:42Pastor Pyou might say, to the Jews. I I'm I'm actually a a liaison between the Jewish community and the Gentile church. I try to help Jews understand the gospel,

0:54Pastor Pthe who the Messiah is and why he came.

0:57Pastor PAnd then I try to help Gentile Christians to understand

1:01Pastor PJews so that they might reach out and love them. So

1:05Pastor PI'm not a theologian per se,

1:07Pastor Pbut every day, I get up and I study the word, and I'll talk about that in a few minutes. But

1:14Pastor PI'm

1:15Pastor Ppassionate about the word of God, and I'm thrilled to be here.

1:18AndrewNow you had a you had a show for a while. Is that right?

1:21Pastor PYes. I when I was in New York City, I was pastoring a church on Staten Island, and

1:27Pastor PI got together 10 people who helped me produce a television program. We did a 180 television programs.

1:34Pastor PAnd it was right at the same time that Jerry Seinfeld was on television, and I actually did more television shows than he did. And I won seven awards and

1:43Pastor Pa lot of lot of

1:46Pastor Pacclaim, you might say,

1:48Pastor Pand success.

1:50Pastor PSo we're thrilled that God blessed us in that way.

1:53AndrewOkay. Well, thank you so much for coming in tonight.

1:56AndrewNow we agreed back stage that you would have seven minutes for your opening statement before we move to seven minutes for Jay's.

2:03AndrewI'm gonna start the timer now.

2:05AndrewGo ahead when you're ready.

2:06Pastor PAlright. Well,

2:08Pastor Pas I started to say,

2:10Pastor PI've been a pastor for many years and been in ministry for many years, and that is all fueled by my love for the word of God. I was brought up in a in a in church, had a string of perfect attendance pins,

2:22Pastor Pand joined the Bible Memory Association when I was eight years old.

2:27Pastor PAnd won lots of awards there for

2:30Pastor Pmy Bible memory work

2:32Pastor Pand

2:33Pastor Pcontinued to memorize scripture.

2:35Pastor PAnd by the time I was finished with Bible College, I had memorized about 2,000 scriptures.

2:41Pastor PAnd I can't say that I can remember all of them now, so please don't ask me to quote you 2,000 scriptures. But

2:49Pastor Pbut I do have a son who's kind of on the same journey. He's memorized probably

2:54Pastor Pone about one third of the New Testament and and and a good portion of the Psalms and Genesis and so forth in the old. So he's kinda following in my footsteps. So we are lovers of the word of God. And the word of God, I have has been my anchor

3:09Pastor Pfor all these many years.

3:11Pastor PI became a a true believer when I was just about to turn 16 years old,

3:16Pastor PAnd I started teaching a bible study in my high school, preaching in the halls, evangelizing.

3:21Pastor PWe saw about a 100

3:23Pastor Pof our fellow students come to Christ during that year. That was my last year of high school. I went to college a year early, and I did the same thing at my college.

3:33Pastor PAnd we saw about a 100 people saved during that time as well.

3:37Pastor PAnd then I went off to bible college

3:39Pastor Pand was there for four years. I was a dormitory supervisor teaching as well as teaching the bible in the dorm at at night, every night,

3:48Pastor Pand then pastoring as well on the weekends.

3:52Pastor PAnd then I went to seminary for five years, and then I went to seminary for another two another seminary for another two years.

4:00Pastor PSo I'm overeducated,

4:02Pastor Pand I'm a gold brick. I know that. But

4:05Pastor Pmaybe some of it'll come in handy tonight, but I wouldn't call myself theologian.

4:09Pastor PI call myself a bible preacher. You know, George Whitfield. I was just down at a church that he helped to

4:16Pastor Ppastor back down in Saint Simon's Island, Georgia.

4:19Pastor PAnd

4:21Pastor Phe his his motto was, put me in the middle of a field,

4:25Andrewand I will set myself on fire

4:27Andrewwith the gospel and the truth of

4:29Pastor Pthe word of God,

4:30Pastor Pand everybody will come and watch me burn.

4:33Pastor PAnd I have preached

4:35Pastor Pto hundreds of churches. I've preached about 2,000 times on the street.

4:40Pastor PI've been on television. I've taken every opportunity that I could take to preach the word of God, and I'm passionate about it.

4:48Pastor PAnd it's in my heart,

4:51Pastor Pand I wanted to read you a passage of scripture. And I know you say, wait. Wait. Wait. This is not sola scriptura.

4:57Pastor PYes. It is.

4:59Pastor PI'll get there. Just give me a second. So

5:03Pastor Pthis is from Psalm 19.

5:05Pastor PDavid says, the law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. The testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple. The statues of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart. The commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes.

5:18Pastor PThe fear of the Lord is clean, enduring forever. The judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.

5:23Pastor PMore to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold, sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.

5:30Pastor PMoreover, by them is your servant warned, and in keeping of them, there is great reward.

5:35Pastor PHe the word of God is perfect according to this Psalm. It is sure. It is right. It is pure. It is true and righteous altogether.

5:43Pastor PIt is more to be desired than gold, sweeter than honey or the honeycomb, and if you keep it, there is great reward. I want to tell you today that the word of God

5:53Pastor Pis better

5:54Pastor Pthan church councils.

5:56Pastor PChurches,

5:57Pastor Petcetera,

5:58Pastor Pmake mistakes.

6:00Pastor PChristians make mistakes. The word of God is perfect.

6:04Pastor PIt it's it's what it says right there. It's a perfect book but we have an imperfect church. And I I I've been in the church my whole life. I I was as involved in church as I could be as a child and then

6:16Pastor Phave been

6:17Pastor Pwent I was in church every chance I could get my whole life. So I I nobody under believes in church more than I do. However, nobody knows the the corruption that can be in churches. I have watched my my the first pastor that I was under

6:33Pastor Pas as associate pastor when I was 18 years old committed adultery with our

6:39Pastor Pchurch secretary.

6:41Pastor PAnd I have seen that kind of thing happen time and again and again and again. And I've been in all kinds of churches. I've spoken in lots of venues.

6:51Pastor PI know lots of priests. I I've I've

6:54Pastor Pand I I see that the churches

6:58Pastor Pnot all churches are terrible,

7:00Pastor Pbut church is

7:03Pastor Pchurches are run by men, and they are imperfect. Whereas the scripture is perfect.

7:07Pastor PAnd

7:09Pastor Pit is powerful according to Romans according to Hebrews four twelve.

7:14Pastor PIt is preserved according to Matthew twenty four thirty five. Heaven or earth shall pass away, but my word shall not pass away.

7:21Pastor PI

7:22Pastor Pbelieve that when the

7:25Pastor PDead Sea Scrolls were found in 1948,

7:28Pastor PIt was the same year that

7:30Pastor PIsrael became a nation. And I believe the two

7:34Pastor Pconfirmed each other that God had promised

7:37Pastor Pthat his people would endure

7:39Pastor Pand that Israel would endure. They are his forever people, and Israel is is is a forever place for God. And here comes the word of God being found in a cave,

7:49Pastor PCave Number 4,

7:52Pastor Pnear the Dead Sea.

7:53Pastor PAnd Bedouin boy found it and didn't realize, wow, we now know this is

7:59Pastor Pit is almost exactly

8:01Pastor Pto the letter the same as the scroll of Isaiah that we already had.

8:06Pastor PSo

8:07Pastor Pit is preserved. It is protected.

8:10Pastor PI

8:11Pastor Pdo thank God for the early some of the early councils, and maybe this is hypocritical of me, but the church gets it right sometimes.

8:18Pastor PAnd the Council of Carthage got it right when they said, these are the books, and these others are not the books. They threw out lots of books that

8:28Pastor Pcould have been included in the Bible, but they said, no. These are not the books. But then you go to the Diet of Worms,

8:35Pastor Pwhen worms, if you wanna say, when Martin Luther was being indicted

8:39Pastor Pfor her heresy,

8:41Pastor Pand they got it wrong. They walked into the on a Tuesday at 11:00,

8:46Pastor Pthey walked into the next room and said, we're gonna accept the apocrypha as canonical just so that we can say that there's purgatory.

8:53Pastor PWell, so, you know, some councils get it right and some councils get it wrong.

8:58Pastor PI do thank God for the ones that got it right. I thank God for the council of Nicaea that where where Christ's deity was confirmed and so forth. So some get it right and some get it wrong and and, you

9:09Pastor Pknow, the church gets some things right, the church gets some things wrong.

9:12Pastor PI believe that the

9:14Pastor Pword of God is inspired

9:16Pastor Pplenarily. In other words, it is

9:19Pastor Pthoughts and words are are inspired.

9:23Pastor PAnd according to second Timothy three sixteen, all scripture is given by inspiration of God. That word inspiration

9:30Pastor Pof God is one big long word, Theopneustos,

9:33Pastor Pinspired

9:34Pastor Pby breathed by God's spirit. God's spirit breathed the word of God to us, breathed it out to us.

9:39Pastor PSo it is spiritual thoughts put together with spiritual words according to first Corinthians.

9:45Pastor PIt was supervised.

9:47Pastor PThe holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit

9:51Pastor Paccording to second Peter one twenty one. It was it was overseen by the Holy Spirit.

9:57Pastor PAnd we're a treasure

9:58AndrewI don't I don't mean to cut in, sir, but but you're actually out of time, and I need to to move that back over. When

10:06Andrewyou when you said the breeze breeze in were, like, almost like the breath of life?

10:12Pastor PNo. It's like speaking

10:15Pastor Pwords. Okay. Says it says if and let me clarify.

10:19Pastor PWhen

10:22Pastor Pwhen the holy spirit spoke the word of god, he didn't whisper in someone's ear and say, in in the the beginning beginning.

10:32Pastor PGod. God. No. No. He used Moses'

10:35Pastor Pmind,

10:36Pastor Ppersonality,

10:38Pastor Pthoughts.

10:39Pastor PHe gave them the thoughts, and he supervised the words so that the thoughts were correct and the words were correct. That's what called verbal plenary inspiration.

10:49Pastor PGotcha. That's what I believe in.

10:51Jesus Brea (caller)Yeah.

10:51AndrewOkay. Thank you so much. Jay, I'm gonna give you eight minutes on the clock. That's about what that opening was. Go ahead.

10:59Jay DyerOkay. I apologize. I am I am sick, so I'm having to eat cough drops here while I while

11:04Jay DyerI do this. So I'm not trying to be disrespectful to anybody. So

11:10Jay Dyeralright. So,

11:12Jay Dyeryeah, thanks for thanks for having me. I think

11:15Jay DyerI took some notes as I listened to that opening statement, and I'll I'll make my opening statement

11:20Jay Dyeron the basis of some of the notes that I took. And

11:24Jay Dyersome of the texts that I think from the bible actually vindicate the notion of extra biblical

11:30Jay Dyertradition

11:31Jay Dyerin the sense of oral tradition

11:33Jay Dyerand in the sense of church tradition being things that are absolutely necessary

11:38Jay Dyeras well as the the text of scripture. So I I definitely agree with

11:43Jay Dyermy guest about the way that he my opponent, the way the way that he described inspiration. I think that

11:48Jay Dyerwe are agreed that the text, in my view, from the orthodox perspective, the way I understand our our teaching is that we think that they are inspired.

11:56Jay DyerI believe that they are inerrant. I think that that is the consensus of the church fathers that the text don't contain errors.

12:03Jay DyerI think that his analogy that he used for synergy between between man and god in terms of that inspiration,

12:10Jay Dyeras I understand him, I would agree with that.

12:12Jay DyerBut where I don't agree is the first mistake that I heard, from my position is that,

12:17Jay Dyerhe cited Psalm 19 about, the word of God is perfect. The law is perfect. So

12:23Jay Dyerin my view, the word of God does not have a single referent. I think that most of the time Protestants take the word of God, the phrase word of God to have a single referent, namely the written text of scripture.

12:35Jay DyerIn my view, the predominant

12:37Jay Dyerreference in a lot of these texts that Protestants are thinking is about the text is actually to the second person of the Godhead who is Jesus himself, the logos.

12:46Jay DyerFor example, in John one, John refers to Jesus as the person as the word of God. So in fact, the text that he referred to in Psalm 19, while I do think they have an application to the written text,

12:56Jay Dyerthe written texts are actually pointing to the second person of the Godhead who is not identical to the written text. The written texts are his letter, so to speak, we could say. But I don't think that that's the only word that the word of God spoke, especially to the church. In fact, in the epistles of Timothy Paul to Timothy and in Peter's epistles, we find reference to the word of God as what the apostles also preached.

13:19Jay DyerPass on to good men after you, Timothy, the words that you heard from me in the presence of many witnesses. Right? And so we know Paul taught for

13:28Jay Dyerat least three years in Ephesus according to the book of acts. And so the entire apostolic deposit

13:34Jay Dyeris what Paul taught for those three years. That's what's commanded to be handed down to Timothy at Ephesus. And and Paul says to Timothy,

13:41Jay DyerI laid hands on you. You lay hands on men after you,

13:45Jay Dyerand do not give the holy spirit,

13:48Jay Dyerwhich is given by the laying on of hands, hastily. Make sure that you're passing it on to a good person because

13:53Jay Dyerthe gift of the holy spirit is transferred in that laying on of hands. In our view, that is an actual real historic apostolic succession.

14:01Jay DyerAnd so even from the text where we would go to in terms

14:04Pastor Pof

14:04Jay DyerPaul

14:05Jay Dyercommanding this tradition

14:07Jay Dyerbe passed on, Paul says to the Thessalonians in second Thessalonians two fifteen,

14:12Jay Dyerhe gives a standing command to pass on not just what was written, but also the oral teachings. Whatever I said to you, whether oral or written, second Thessalonians, see if anything, you pass those things on. And that's exactly what he said to Timothy as well in both of the epistles to Timothy. So for us, word of God is not restricted to written text. It also goes beyond that to the entire apostolic deposit, which would include

14:35Jay Dyerthe sense of the Old Testament scriptures, not the text themselves. That's part of it, but also the interpretation, the sense of that. As the Ethiopian eunuch says, how can I understand unless someone guides me? The church plays that role of guiding and helping us to understand not just which which texts are the texts of scripture, but the interpretation of that text.

14:54Jay DyerSo I think a lot of times in the case of Protestants, have this assumption that texts just mean what they say and they say what they mean, but in fact, they also require interpretation.

15:02Jay DyerSo I think it's more it's more nuanced than that.

15:05Jay DyerNext, I would note that

15:08Jay Dyerthe canon of scripture is something that is a historical fact determined by the church. This is not up to debate. I don't think it's up to

15:17Jay Dyerad hoc sort of reasoning or just postulating that, well, I'm a Protestant. We have the right canon because I prayed about the holy spirit led me. I was saying he's saying that, but oftentimes that's what we hear from Protestants.

15:28Jay DyerMy view, we have to have the history of the church to not just tell us which books were compiled and put together because that's something that for the Orthodox Church happened at the council of Trullo that's reaffirmed at the seventh ecumenical council. We also need the church to tell us which of these texts is apostolic.

15:45Jay DyerFor example, the gospel of Matthew doesn't identify its author. And so for us to know that it's Matthew the apostle is part of church tradition.

15:53Jay DyerAnd while that's not the only reason that we include Matthew in the gospel in in the in the four synoptic gospels

15:59Jay Dyerexcuse me, in the four gospels,

16:01Jay DyerPart of the reason that we include Matthew is because we have the the tradition of the church that is passed on in the different seas of the there's the apostolic seas and the apostolic succession

16:11Jay Dyerin the important churches in the in early Rome.

16:15Jay DyerWe know by tradition that those are the those are apostolic texts.

16:19Jay DyerAnd so apostolic

16:20Jay Dyerauthorship, which is very important, cannot be known apart from the the testimony and tradition of the church. That doesn't mean that I'm saying every tradition in the church is identical to the divine word of God or is necessarily inspired or infallible.

16:34Jay DyerBut there is this,

16:35Jay DyerI believe, biblical notion of tradition that goes beyond just the written text, and I think this was true even in the Old Testament.

16:42Jay DyerFor example, if we look at second chronicles 29

16:45Jay Dyerconcerning king Hezekiah,

16:47Jay Dyerwe have this story about how he stationed the liturgical worship,

16:51Jay Dyerbut we don't have any record of what David himself commanded concerning these things. And so David being, I think, two hundred fifty years before Hezekiah,

17:00Jay Dyerwe know that the the according to Leviticus, the story of Nadab and Abihu, you can't worship God the way that you want to. It has to be done according to how much time do I have?

17:08AndrewYou have two minutes, Jay.

17:10Jay DyerK. Worship can't be done according to man's fancy.

17:14Jay DyerRight? It's very important that it's done according to the prescriptions that God lays down.

17:18Jay DyerAnd so even in the old testament, although we do have liturgical

17:21Jay Dyerworship that's given in terms of the structure of the temple and the tabernacle and all that,

17:26Jay Dyerthe

17:27Jay Dyermusical arrangements of the liturgical services, David's psalms themselves,

17:32Jay Dyerwe're not exactly told how that's supposed to go down. And so Hezekiah is doing this on the basis of world tradition according to second chronicles 29.

17:39Jay DyerBeyond that, we have examples even in the old testament where

17:43Jay Dyera lot of extra canonical texts are referred to.

17:46Jay DyerRandom books,

17:48Jay Dyerthe book of the just, the book of

17:53Jay DyerAdo the seer, etcetera. These different books that are referred to that are noncanonical as well as the New Testament citation

17:59Jay Dyerof the book of Jude. Of course, Jude is not canonical,

18:03Jay Dyerbut we can refer to these extra canonical traditions because it was not the apostolic attitude that's that the text alone were the means by which the church was to be run. And I would add that

18:14Jay Dyerfor all of Paul's injunctions in the New Testament and Corinthians against the abuse of worship, there is no New Testament liturgy.

18:21Jay DyerAnd so if God cares about liturgy, which he certainly does by killing Nadab and Abihu for offering strange fire, where is the New Testament presentation of how we are supposed to worship God? Well, the answer is that we know from the history of the church and reading the church fathers

18:35Jay Dyerthat the apostles laid down apostolic

18:37Jay Dyerliturgies that are not written in scripture,

18:40Jay Dyerbut they are liturgies that derive from

18:43Jay Dyerthe temple and the the synagogue worship service that the apostles by their apostolic authority gave to the church to be the normative means of worship. And by when we go to the church fathers, we find that that's liturgical worship. We find that it's the Eucharist. We find that the Eucharist is an oblation and an offering as Hebrews 13 says it is. We have an altar by which we have the right to eat, which those who serve at the tabernacle have no right to eat. That's the Eucharistic altar that's mentioned by

19:09Jay DyerSaint Justin Martyr

19:10Jay Dyerin 150.

19:12Jay DyerIt's mentioned by Irenaeus in against heresies in 180. So from the earliest days of the of the post apostolic church, we know that the worship that they passed on into the seas that they founded,

19:24Jay Dyerlike we see that pattern of passing on the succession to Timothy in Ephesus,

19:28Jay DyerThe Orthodox Church has that same church in Ephesus. Do you know that there's still an Orthodox Church in Ephesus which traces its lineage back to what Paul is passing down to Timothy?

19:38Jay DyerAnd so that is the apostolic tradition, which can't be divorced

19:42Jay Dyerfrom the text of scripture because it is the liturgy itself

19:46Jay Dyerand the daily readings, the lectionaries

19:48Jay Dyerby which the church used

19:51Jay Dyerthat that tradition to help determine

19:53Jay Dyerwhat books go into the Bible. So by every time that he cites the canon of scripture by going to the bible, he's de facto presupposing

20:02Jay Dyerthat the Orthodox Church has the correct tradition

20:05Jay Dyerby going to the books that they put together.

20:07AndrewThank you for that opening statement as well, Jay. And thank you everybody for tuning in for this debate tonight. Before I open the floor up, just remember that I need a new computer, and it's up to you to give it to. I'm kidding. Obviously, send the super chats in, though. We appreciate them. Don't know if we're gonna take callers tonight because it sounds like Jay's got kind of a rough voice, so I don't know if we're gonna do it or not. We'll see how he feels when we get closer to time. Gentlemen

20:30Jay DyerI'll go as long as my voice is here.

20:31AndrewOkay. Gentlemen, the floor is open.

20:35Pastor PWell, you said a lot. So I

20:37Pastor PI I probably won't cover

20:39Pastor Phalf of, you know, what you said, but I do have a lot to say. First of all,

20:45Pastor Pthe core of the word of the bible, the word of God is the gospel.

20:50Pastor PAnd, the in fact, the very

20:52Pastor Pconstruction of the bible speaks to that. You have in the Old Testament, you have the law and the prophets and the writings

21:00Pastor Pand and

21:02Pastor Pand the historical books you have. So you have four divisions. In the New Testament, you have four gospels, the book of acts, which is historical, the epistles, and the book of revelation.

21:11Pastor PSo you have a balance with Christ

21:14Pastor Pbeing the theme of all of it. Jesus said,

21:18Pastor Pyou search the scriptures for in them you think you have eternal life. In in in searching

21:23Pastor Pthe scriptures, think that that grants you eternal life, but

21:27Pastor Pthese are they which testify of me.

21:30Pastor PSo all of it is about Jesus,

21:33Pastor Pand that's the word of the gospel, which is the core of the Bible. So

21:39Pastor Pif

21:40Pastor PI'm I'm speaking to you folks out there that

21:43Pastor Pyou you you may be bible students.

21:45Pastor PIf you don't know Jesus as your savior,

21:48Pastor Pplease

21:49Pastor Pdon't miss the the big eye the the big most

21:52Pastor Pimportant thing in that book, in that big book.

21:55Pastor PYou know, there's

21:57Pastor Pthere's

21:58Pastor Palmost 1,200

21:59Pastor Pchapters in the book, 31,000

22:03Pastor Pverses,

22:04Pastor Pand there's a lot in that book.

22:06Pastor PBut there's one theme,

22:08Pastor Pand if you miss the theme, you've missed the you've you've wasted your time as far as I'm concerned,

22:13Pastor Pand that is Jesus

22:14Pastor Pand his death on the cross for you and his payment for your sins. And if you repent

22:20Pastor Pand believe in him, you can have eternal life.

22:24Jay DyerAnd Sir,

22:25Andrewsir, don't mean to I don't mean to cut in, but

22:28Andrewright now is the time to address the opponent

22:31Andrewwho's in the debate with you. And we'll give you time to address the audience, I promise. But for now, we can focus on the arguments so we can keep the debate on track.

22:39Pastor PWell, I appreciate that. But, you know, when I'm talking, I get excited about the gospel. So I want you to understand that, you know, he mentioned that, you know, the the the Bible is is not is not and and the truth is not just the Bible, but it's it's the word in in wherever

22:56Pastor Pit speaks.

22:58Pastor PAnd

22:59Pastor Pthe Bible is the word of God, but the core of the Bible is the word of the gospel.

23:05Pastor PYou know, I pastored in New York City for many years and basically,

23:10Pastor Peveryone that came to my church was a former Catholic or Greek Orthodox or Eastern Orthodox.

23:15Pastor PAnd they

23:16Pastor Pwere they came

23:19Pastor PI'll use the word ignorant. I don't I don't mean to put them down, but they came knowing

23:23Pastor Pnothing of the word of God. And they were hungry

23:26Pastor Pfor the word of God, and I taught them the word. And I taught them once a week in their homes, then I had a Sunday school class on Sunday morning, and then I preached in church, and then I had a training class on Sunday evening, and then I preached on Sunday evening. Then I had a Wednesday night service where I taught the word of God, and then I get like I say, I then again, I had a home bible study. So I taught them five to six times a week,

23:48Pastor Pand they were hungering for it. They had never heard it. And one time I

23:54Pastor Pone of their they had one of their priests come over to to

23:57Pastor Pbasically rebuke me. You know, how dare you

23:59Pastor Pyou try to steal my flock? And I said, sir, I I'm just trying to feed your flock. I'm not trying to steal it. So he said

24:07Pastor Phe said, well, you know, you're you're you're teaching the Bible by it's Bible, Bible, Bible, Bible. You you know, it's it's not just the Bible. There's a lot more than Bible.

24:16Pastor PAnd we started, you know, debating about whether what the Bible is and what it should contain, and we we we got off on the apocrypha.

24:24AndrewBut, sir sir, can I have you address the arguments Jay was making?

24:27Pastor PI'm I'm getting there. Okay. He said this is what he said. He said, young man, he said, we wrote it.

24:36Pastor PAnd if we want to, we can add the apocrypha to it. We can we can make changes wherever we feel like we need to.

24:43Pastor PAnd

24:44Pastor Pno. You

24:45Pastor Pso

24:46Pastor Pthe the church can't change the word of god. We can't add to it. We can't take away from it. It's a perfect

24:51Jay DyerI'm not

24:52Pastor Ptrying to perfect it.

24:52Jay DyerDid you hear me make that argument that the church changed the word of god?

24:56Pastor PYou you said that, basically, the church has had the oversight

25:01Pastor Pof God's word.

25:02Jay DyerDo you think oversight change do you think oversight and change mean the same thing?

25:05Pastor PYeah. I think you you you can't you you don't have

25:09Jay Dyerwords mean the same thing. They don't mean the same thing.

25:11Pastor PWell, maybe not to you. But how come they could

25:14Jay DyerNot to me. In fact, the word oversight does not mean the same thing as change.

25:19Pastor POkay. So when they added the apocrypha,

25:21Pastor Pwas was that is that something that bothers you?

25:25Jay DyerI don't believe the apocrypha was added.

25:28Pastor PWell, the the Council of Worms, you know, they were they were bringing Martin Luther up on charges of heresy,

25:35Pastor Pand

25:35Pastor Pthey said he said, I don't believe in purgatory. And they said, well, it's in the bible. And he said, no. It's not. It's in the Apocrypha.

25:42Pastor PAnd they adjourned to the other room and came back. And they said, it is now. Well, that's very flippant. That's a very flippant

25:49Pastor Pattitude toward the word of god.

25:50Jay DyerRight. So but I don't mean to be rude, but as Orthodox, we don't believe in purgatory. So that's a Roman Catholic teaching and also

25:56Jay Dyera council that condemns,

25:57Jay Dyeryou know, Martin Luther really doesn't have anything to do with with what we're arguing today.

26:01Pastor PSo the well, the point is churches are

26:05Pastor Pare not perfect. My no church that I was ever in was perfect, and no church that you've ever been in is perfect.

26:11Jay DyerSure. And I agree with that.

26:12Pastor PSo so we we we have to end up back at the word of God, studying the word of God, and feeding our soul on the word of God. And so it's very odd to me that

26:23Pastor Pthe people who

26:25Pastor PI mean,

26:26Pastor Pagain, I spent

26:28Pastor Pmany years in New York City. I didn't find Greek Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox, Russian Orthodox having bible studies, bible studies, bible studies, nor nor did I find Catholics or Anglicans

26:39Pastor Por even Lutherans.

26:41Pastor PWas us us Baptist if you wanna use the word fundamentalist, I I I'm not sure if that applies to me perfectly, but

26:49Pastor Pit was us that that have a burden to to teach the word of God to to the masses.

26:55Jay DyerCan I reply to that?

26:56Pastor PSure.

26:57Jay DyerThe first thing I would say is that

27:00Jay Dyerin my experience in the Orthodox Church is that we're always

27:03Jay Dyerdoing biblical stuff. In fact, every

27:06Jay Dyerservice that you go to is nothing but constant biblical readings. In fact, some of the Russian services are so long

27:12Jay Dyerthat you'll get tired standing there listening to all the biblical readings.

27:16Jay DyerSo maybe that was an experience that you had at, you know, a Greek parish in New York or whatever, but that hasn't been my experience. In fact, the the orthodox liturgy is nothing but constant immersion in scripture. Secondly, I would say to that point about the apocrypha,

27:29Jay Dyeryou know, in in our view,

27:31Jay Dyerthe New Testament in many places sides the the apocrypha, and I could give you

27:35Jay DyerProtestant scholars, for example, the Mac Donald

27:39Jay Dyeris a famous Baptist evangelical

27:41Jay Dyerscholar,

27:42Jay Dyerand he's got an entire appendix in the back of his book, Formation of the Christian Biblical Canon,

27:47Jay Dyerwhere he cites about 10 pages with dozens of references of New Testament citations

27:52Jay Dyerof the the deuterocanon.

27:54Jay DyerAnd so for us, when you get into the early church fathers, you'll find that they also pretty typically cite the deuterocanonical books as well, and even in many cases to prove doctrines or to prove points.

28:04Jay DyerSo while it's true that some church fathers didn't have a very high place for the apocryphal like Saint Jerome.

28:11Jay DyerIn our view, by the time of the fifth and sixth century, the consensus of the church was that we would accept these as

28:17Jay Dyersecondary canon or deuterocanon,

28:20Jay Dyerand that's because they're referenced so many times in the New Testament and by the early church. So,

28:25Jay DyerI mean, I don't

28:27Jay Dyerbelieve, by the way, that the deuterocanon teaches purgatory. So I would agree with you, right, and Martin Luther that we shouldn't believe in purgatory. But

28:35Jay DyerI I what I did wanna respond to the previous points

28:39Jay Dyerin regard to the deuterocanon itself.

28:42Pastor PAlright. So

28:43Pastor Pin 1054,

28:45Pastor Pyou have what's called the great schism. Everybody knows that.

28:48Pastor PAnd so you end up with two traditions. You know, the eastern tradition,

28:52Pastor PByzantine,

28:53Pastor Pand the Roman Catholic, the Roman tradition.

28:56Pastor PAnd they diverge,

28:58Pastor Pand they go their separate ways.

29:00Pastor PNow they started out at basically the same place. They had already started having some some issues,

29:05Pastor Pobviously,

29:06Pastor Pbut but they they really diverged, and they really went separate ways after that. Now who's to say? You know, I

29:14Pastor Phave a number of priests, Catholic priest friends.

29:18Pastor PI'm I'm pro life, so I found myself on buses with Catholic priests quite often.

29:24Pastor PSo we would discuss doctrine, and they're adamant that their tradition,

29:30Pastor Ptheir liturgy,

29:31Pastor Pand what they do is is

29:34Pastor Pis apostolically,

29:36Pastor Pyou know, apostolic, and and it goes back through apostolic succession to Peter.

29:41Pastor PAnd then,

29:42Pastor Pof course,

29:43Pastor Pall of the East eastern churches would say the same. Who's to say which is right?

29:48Jay DyerWell, I mean, the fact that people disagreed really doesn't have anything to do with the truth or falsity of each either position.

29:56Pastor POkay. So how's

29:57Pastor PI'm not

29:58Jay Dyertrying to be rude.

29:59Jay DyerI'm just saying that

30:00Pastor Pthat No. It's it's not

30:01Jay Dyerit doesn't it doesn't constitute an argument.

30:03Pastor PYes. It does. Because if there's a thousand people watching out there or 10,000 people watching out there, they want to know, wait a minute,

30:11Pastor Pwhich one's right? Sure. They're

30:13Pastor Pboth, you know, a

30:15Pastor Pthousand years old or, you know, since the schism and they've gone different ways. Which one's right?

30:20Jay DyerIt's depositing of a question though, it's not an argument in a philosophical sense.

30:25Pastor PWell, it's it's begging the question because

30:29Pastor Pthey're gonna have to make well, because they're gonna have to make a a decision

30:33Pastor Pwhich one is right. And they're gonna have to then go and study the Eastern tradition and the Western tradition and then say, I think this one's right and I think this one's wrong. You know? Sure. They've gotta make a decision. So Yeah. I I I feel like it puts people in a in an impossible spot.

30:47Pastor PIf you stick with the word of God, you don't you don't need to be making decisions like that. You stick with the word, let the word feed your soul.

30:55Jay DyerOkay. So but the problem with that is how do you have an a priori knowledge of what the correct canon of scripture is?

31:02Pastor POkay. We I believe that God superintended

31:06Pastor Pthe and as as I said, I

31:07Jay Dyerthat too. So but but I'm saying, how do you know which canon is correct?

31:11Pastor PWell, there's only one canon from the council of Carthage. There's one canon that came forth.

31:16Jay DyerSupposed to follow Carthage on your view?

31:18Pastor PAnd

31:18Pastor Pas I said,

31:20Pastor Pthere have been times that the church got it right, and that was Why one that the church got it

31:24Jay Dyeris Carthage right?

31:26Pastor PI believe that God superintended it, as I said. I believe he watched over it and made sure that not the right books got it.

31:33Jay DyerThe other councils?

31:34Pastor PWell, that was the one that that got passed down.

31:37Jay DyerThe one that backs up your That's

31:38Pastor Pthat's no. That's the one that got passed down. Council of Carthage is the where we got our our 27

31:44Pastor Pbooks in the New Testament. So it it it it defined what the New Testament is.

31:48Jay DyerTeaches all kinds of things like baptismal regeneration. It teaches,

31:52Jay Dyerall the doctrines that we hold as orthodox because the canons of Carthage by the way, Carthage is a whole bunch of synods

31:58Jay Dyerthat's reaffirmed at the at the time of the council of of Trullo,

32:01Jay Dyerwhich is affirmed at Nicaea too.

32:03Jay DyerAnd so you wouldn't hold to anything else taught by the councils of Carthage other than what you're saying is the New Testament text, but I'm just saying it's arbitrary. Why why should we follow that when you reject everything else that Carthage says?

32:14Pastor PWell, again, I believe that there are times when the church when the church has gotten it right and when it agrees with the word of God, it it gets it right there.

32:21Jay DyerWhen there are times word of God is just your views.

32:24Pastor PWell, so what my understanding, I've spent my life trying to be trying to understand it understand it and and hold myself accountable to it. So yes.

32:32Jay DyerWhat I'm asking you about is the actual contents of the word of God, and you're saying that I follow what follows the word of God. But this is about the putting in into into the word of God, the books of the word of God.

32:43Pastor PYes. And how do

32:45Jay Dyeryou know that that's the right canon with the right the right counsel with the right canon?

32:49Pastor PI believe that their their decision was based on

32:53Pastor Pwe are not gonna allow any books into this any new books or or any books in the canon of scripture for the New Testament unless they, first of all, agree 100%

33:02Pastor Pwith the Old Testament, do not contradict the Old Testament, and second of all, have the

33:08Pastor Psupervision

33:09Pastor Pof an apostle.

33:11Pastor PAnd so they threw out hundreds of books, and they ended up with 27.

33:15Jay DyerThat But you don't agree with their Old Testament Canon because they support the deuterocanon.

33:20Pastor PThat

33:21Pastor Pagain,

33:22Pastor Pwhen you say deuterocanon,

33:23Pastor Pthey're they do not hold no one holds that up at at the equal as equal with the with the Bible. No one holds that up

33:30Jay Dyeras The equal with the the totality of that council is affirming all the things that I affirm as well as the deuterocanonical text. I mean, you even you even cited

33:39Jay Dyerthe Dead Sea Scrolls, which include the deuterocanonical text. So it's what's going on is that you have a picking and choosing that is arbitrary.

33:47Pastor PWell, again, I'm taking I start with the old,

33:50Pastor Pand then I go to the new, and I try to line my doctrine up.

33:54Jay DyerYeah. But but how do you know that the deuterocanon isn't part of the old? That's what I'm that's what I'm so you have a presupposition that it's not part of the old, you're saying I'm starting with the old.

34:03Pastor PWell,

34:04Pastor Pmy

34:05Pastor Punderstanding of the Council of Carthage

34:07Pastor Pwas that there were many books excluded

34:10Pastor Pfrom the the and when we say canon, we're talking about a very small number of books. A very thin,

34:17Pastor Pvery thin New Testament books.

34:18Jay DyerAnd you're saying that Carthage is wrong when the councils,

34:22Jay Dyerplural, of Carthage

34:23Jay Dyeralso cite the deuterocanonical

34:25Jay Dyerbooks. You're saying they're wrong there.

34:27Pastor POkay.

34:28Pastor PWe're gonna have to at least we're being

34:31Pastor Pclear. You know, sometimes you have to just clarify and agree to disagree. But I I accept

34:38Pastor Pwhat that they decided

34:40Pastor Pas far as the canon of the New Testament. Okay.

34:43Rambling Man (caller)I do

34:43Pastor Pnot accept I I do not accept the deuterocanonical

34:45Pastor Pbooks. Right. I'm saying, on

34:48Jay Dyerwhat basis is that the counsel that you're going to when you don't accept what they say about anything?

34:53Pastor PAgain, we're

34:54Pastor Pgonna have to agree to disagree. I believe that they were consistent

34:58Pastor Pon their

35:00Pastor Pdecision

35:01Pastor Pand their criteria for what was

35:04Jay DyerThey're supposed to not consistent because you don't accept the other things that Carthage teaches.

35:08Pastor PI don't agree with everything they taught because there are a lot of things that they taught that I cannot

35:12Jay Dyerfind Well, I'm in the asking is, How do you know they're right about the New Testament?

35:15Pastor PAgain, I believe that when they made those two decisions of the

35:20Pastor Pagreeing with the Old Testament and the authority of the apostles, those were the right that was the right decision from my from my vantage point. So

35:28Pastor PI you know, I'm studying the word of God every day.

35:30Jay DyerRight. But it's begging the question because you're saying that what agrees with the Old Testament, but if the deuterocanon is part of the Old Testament, then

35:38Jay Dyerthat that doesn't work.

35:40Pastor POkay. So so your priest gets up and he teaches the deuterocanonical

35:44Pastor Pbooks on a Sunday morning, every Sunday,

35:46Pastor Pinstead of the word of God. Is that right?

35:49Jay DyerNo. Every liturgy has the readings of Paul, and then it has the readings of the gospel. So there's not any he doesn't preach the deuterocanon every Sunday.

35:57Pastor POkay. Why not?

36:00Jay DyerBecause the liturgy is specific that you do the readings of Paul and then the gospel.

36:05Pastor PK. So if if they're equal, I mean, shouldn't you have be having just tons of Right. Bible

36:12Jay DyerSo I don't think that that they're equal in the sense that they're all they all come to us from God, but they're not equal in the sense of importance. For us, the gospels have a special place above even the epistles of Paul. That doesn't mean that the epistles

36:24Pastor Pof Paul aren't required.

36:26Pastor PWho said? Why are they more important than anything else?

36:29Jay DyerBecause they're the centerpiece of the liturgy, which is what I argued in the opening statement was something that the apostles handed down, which you don't have.

36:36Pastor POkay. But you

36:38Pastor Pare arbitrarily

36:39Pastor Pchoosing a portion of the Bible to be more important than anything else.

36:43Jay DyerThat? Not arbitrary because I believe in tradition, and I cited the example liturgy as an apostolic tradition.

36:50Pastor PSo wouldn't you know, there there were

36:54Pastor PI I looked up the eastern

36:56Pastor Pchurches and there are forty fifty

36:59Pastor Pdifferent

37:02Pastor Pbranches.

37:03Pastor PYou're going

37:03Jay Dyerback to a fallacy. This has nothing to do with what's true

37:06Significo (caller)or false.

37:06Pastor PYes. It does because He is a house.

37:08Jay DyerOne of the

37:09Pastor Pwhy are they why are they separate?

37:11Pastor PWhy are they separate? Why do you have copy?

37:13Jay DyerTrying to be rude to you, man.

37:14Pastor PDo you

37:15Jay Dyerunderstand that that's a fallacy?

37:16Jay DyerThat's a logical fallacy.

37:17Pastor PThe fact that people diss that the

37:19Jay Dyerfact that people disagree has nothing to do with which one is true or false.

37:22Pastor PBut but you are arbitrarily choosing what you're believing,

37:26Pastor Pand other churches are believing what they're believing. It's arbitrary. Look. It's arbitrary if the Coptics do do what they do, and the Egyptian Orthodox do what they do and the Armenians do what they do.

37:35Jay DyerSame liturgy that we do. So that actually argues my point, and that's my point about liturgy, which is that the ancient apostolic liturgies are handed down. They're not in the Bible. They're handed down by the apostles, and the entire ancient church believed that.

37:47Jay DyerYou're saying that doesn't matter. I don't care. It's it's not arbitrary. It's an actual historical argument. And by the way, I could cite you countless Protestant scholars that would admit that point.

37:56Pastor PK. Well, I grew up in a pretty liturgical church,

38:00Pastor PAnd

38:01Pastor Pour time in the word of God was limited because we'd had to do, you know, so many, you know, the Our Father and the Gloria patriarch and, you know, this, that, and the other. And

38:12Pastor Pit was it was a busy service with all of the accoutrements of liturgy.

38:18Pastor PAnd for me,

38:20Pastor Pthey they were

38:22Pastor Pit they weren't it wasn't that they were meaningless. But for me, I was hungering for the word of God. And when I finally got into a church where the word of God was being taught, my soul got fed. And I think that part of the reason why Europe is post Christian today is because liturgy put them to sleep

38:38Pastor Pand didn't teach them.

38:39Jay DyerOkay. So did God put the old testament Israelites to sleep for centuries or for millennia when he had liturgical worship?

38:46Pastor PAgain, the liturgy of the old testament is totally different from the liturgy of churches.

38:50Jay DyerHow would the argument And

38:52Jay DyerNo. It's not. You you don't even I mean, I'm I'm not trying to be rude to you, but I mean, could cite cite you countless scholars that point out that the church's liturgy comes

39:00Jay Dyerdirectly from

39:01Jay Dyerthe temple and the synagogue. And so if your argument is that liturgy itself is a problem that puts people to sleep, then you're faulting God for giving liturgical worship. Mean, where do you how do you think Jesus worshipped in his local synagogue?

39:12Pastor POkay. Look. I've been as a Jewish missionary,

39:15Pastor PI have been to many synagogues,

39:18Pastor Pand

39:19Pastor Pa synagogue a synagogue worship is basically nothing like an orthodox service or

39:24Jay Dyera Catholic You're service or a Anglican

39:26Jay Dyerliterally going against every scholar in the history of liturgy

39:30Jay Dyerbecause they would all tell you again that the history of the church's liturgy comes out of both the temple and the synagogue, and that's not even disputed in any of the scholars.

39:39Pastor PYou know,

39:40Pastor Pit it bothers me that

39:43Pastor Ppeople

39:44Pastor Pmy church was nothing but

39:47Pastor Pmade up of nothing but people that had grown up on liturgy.

39:51Pastor PAnd they of course, they they missed the

39:54Pastor Pthe

39:55Pastor Pincense,

39:56Pastor Pand they missed the the holy water, and they missed the candles, and they missed a lot of the the things

40:02Pastor Pthat were part of the liturgy. They missed it.

40:04Jay DyerWhich is the book of Revelation. Right? When John sees the heavenly worship, he sees all that same stuff. Right?

40:10Pastor PThere may be liturgy in heaven. That's fine. But but on on

40:14Jay Dyerearth But you said it puts them to sleep. So was god putting them to sleep in heaven?

40:18Pastor PI don't think so. I think there when you get around the throne, it's a it's an amazing

40:22Pastor Pwith thunder and lightning and angels flying and and the light and the So God has the worship.

40:29Pastor PI'm not I'm not sure that that's lit I'm not sure that that's liturgy. I think you're making an assumption that you can't you you haven't been there. I haven't been there. I don't

40:37Jay DyerI don't John saw it, so he told

40:39Pastor Pus I don't know that he saw liturgy.

40:40Jay DyerYeah. Okay. Okay.

40:41Pastor PHe he saw worship. He saw worship. And I think that worship will change.

40:46Jay DyerDescribes antiphonal singing. That's liturgy. He describes vestments. He describes an altar. He describes incense being offered by the saints in heaven.

40:53Jay DyerAll of these are liturgical elements for us. So if you wanna take issue with that, that's fine. But you're basically saying that liturgical worship is fine for the old testament, is fine for heaven, but it's boring for the church.

41:05Jay DyerI'm just saying that you're the issue here seems to be that you have a problem with liturgical worship perhaps based on your your past previous experiences in in I guess you were raised Roman Catholic or Anglican or something. Don't I don't know. But why would that have anything to do your bad experiences with whether this is true or false?

41:21Pastor PWell, the apostle Paul, when he was talking about the gifts, he he was say he said that, you know, they're they're the seven gifts and pray,

41:29Pastor Pask God that you should prophesy.

41:32Pastor PAnd the preaching of that's I believe that's the preaching of the word of God, and that's the center

41:36Pastor Pof a service. You know, everything

41:39Pastor Pelse is secondary. The the preaching of the word of god, the teaching of the word

41:43Significo (caller)of god

41:43Pastor Pto change lives, the the preaching of the gospel is central.

41:46Jay DyerTo eat. So you're saying that it's all about hearing a lecture service or something a lecture or something like that. But, I mean, that's just presupposing your position. That's assuming that the apostles didn't hand down a liturgy where the focus of the service was communion.

42:00Pastor PWell, I don't I don't see

42:03Pastor PI I as as I see it, the

42:06Pastor Ppreaching of the word of God and the teaching of the word of God was central

42:09Pastor Pto the New Testament church. Liturgy was secondary. If there was liturgy, if you wanna call it that, it was secondary.

42:16Pastor PAnd,

42:19Pastor Pyou know, churches

42:20Pastor Pright off the bat

42:22Pastor Pbecame corrupt. That's why the apostle John wrote to the seven churches of Asia Minor. Yep. But what's the Was Carthage corrupt?

42:30Pastor PI don't I I I'm sure it wasn't perfect. I'm what I'm saying is as far as the council of you keep going back to that and I'm I'm almost sorry

42:37Jay Dyerbecause it's but Because it's what you it's an arbitrary choice for you that that's the one that's right. And when I

42:43Pastor Pasked about church I believe the church gets it right sometimes.

42:46Pastor POnce in a while, the church gets it right.

42:48Jay DyerBut when I asked you why is Christ like you said because it's consistent with the old testament and the apostles. And that's Okay. That's to me, that's begging the question.

42:56Pastor PThe word of God is perfect.

42:58Pastor PAnd we gotta keep we gotta keep preaching and teaching the word of God. And and it that's gotta be primary. If you wanna have liturgy, okay. Fine. If you wanna if you wanna I I you know, I've been to I've I've gone to monasteries. I've spent a week in a monastery here and there. I I I've seen it and and it's fine. But I left liturgical worship.

43:18AndrewBack

43:18Andrewon track a little bit. So the the argument kind of that I think Jay is trying to make here is,

43:24Andrewin the beginning of this, you said, look. It's very important that everybody in the audience and everybody who's watching this debate and will watch this debate knows

43:33Andrewwhich church, which canon, which everything to follow. That was very important to you.

43:38AndrewJay is saying, how do you know that Carthage,

43:40Andrewwhich is this thing that you claim

43:42Andrewis kind of the grounding or foundation for your current belief structure?

43:47AndrewWhy is that true? That's that's the question. So he's kinda asking you in your own world

43:54Andrewif this is what you're basing everything on. Can you justify that? So that's that's where maybe the confusion is at.

44:00Jay DyerI mean, the the the people at Carthage were bishops.

44:03Jay DyerThey believed in apostolic succession, and they were in the episcopate.

44:06Jay DyerRight? They had liturgies.

44:09Jay DyerSo what I'm pointing out is that I believe everything that they believed. Right?

44:15Pastor POkay. So

44:16Jay DyerAnd the council of of Trullo reaffirms

44:19Jay DyerCarthage and

44:21Jay Dyerincludes these books that you say don't exist in the Old Testament.

44:25Jay DyerAnd you're just saying, I want that council, and I want their New Testament, and I don't want anything else. And I'm just saying that's arbitrary.

44:31Pastor PI believe that God has confirmed and blessed the choice of those books.

44:36Pastor PYou got Martin Luther came along

44:39Pastor Pjust after Gutenberg

44:41Pastor Phad invented the printing press and and

44:45Pastor PErasmus

44:46Pastor Phad gotten

44:47Pastor Ptogether the textus receptus. Martin Luther then translated his bible, and then it was printed on a printing press and sent sent

44:55Pastor Peverywhere.

44:55Jay DyerWho do think who do you think transmitted the received text?

45:00Pastor PIt

45:01Pastor Pcame through the church. It came through the church, but Erasmus put it all together. It had not been

45:05Jay DyerWhere does the received text come from?

45:07Pastor PIt had they come through the church as I just said.

45:09Jay DyerNo. It's a specific church.

45:11Pastor PWhich one? Okay.

45:12Jay DyerIt

45:14Jay Dyercame about It's the Byzantine New Testament.

45:16Pastor PChurch, it came well. Of course, at the schism, you know, the Byzantine church had what it had and the Catholic church then

45:23Jay Dyertext. So so the New Testament collection known as the received text is the Byzantine text.

45:27Pastor POkay. And that you're right. That's what

45:30Jay Dyerwe call orthodox church.

45:31Pastor PByzantine the Byzantine text. That doesn't nullify what I'm saying.

45:35Jay DyerWell, do you understand that the Orthodox Church? It does

45:37Pastor Pit doesn't matter. It doesn't matter.

45:39Pastor PDoesn't matter what we call it. It's the it's the books that are in that

45:42Jay DyerThat's what it is.

45:42Pastor PIt's the 27 books that are in the New Testament that Martin Luther, you're you're

45:47Pastor Pyou're

45:48Pastor Pno. You're trying to nullify what I'm I'm trying to tell you that I believe god

45:52Jay Dyerblessed the books without the church that put the books together.

45:55Pastor PWell, the That's the meaning. Martin Luther put those put those into German, and God bless that translation.

46:00Jay DyerWas the received text. And then

46:01Pastor Pand then again

46:02Jay Dyerwas the You didn't know

46:04Jay DyerByzantine text.

46:04Pastor PAnd then again,

46:06Pastor PGod did it again. He blessed it in the in the early sixteen hundreds between 1600

46:11Jay Dyerand 1610

46:13Pastor Pobserve your 20 when

46:15Pastor Pthe

46:16Jay DyerDo admit it? Do admit

46:16Pastor Pit?

46:17Jay DyerThis argument.

46:18Pastor PWhen the translators

46:19Pastor Pput together the the King James bible and again, I'm not a King James believer per se. K. But you already admit I like it. I I like it, but I believe God blessed the King James version nonetheless.

46:31Pastor PAnd it has been the version that has that has changed.

46:34Pastor PYes. They they God has blessed it. You cannot deny the blessing of God on England and on The United States and around the world where just carved truth. Where the where the King James version has been distributed.

46:48Pastor PAlright. It's God's blessing. Can't deny it.

46:50AndrewTime, guys. We gotta go one

46:51Pastor PBut you deny the blessing of God on the King James version.

46:54Jay DyerIt's only blessings if your position is correct, and you already failed

46:58Jay Dyerbecause you didn't even realize the Byzantine text, which is the New Testament text you're talking about, is the received text.

47:04Pastor PAnd it doesn't matter. It doesn't it doesn't matter what you call it. You can call it what

47:07Jay Dyeryou want. Okay. So you're admitting that God used the Byzantine church to preserve your bible.

47:11Pastor PDoesn't matter. Doesn't matter. God God then And took it it doesn't

47:15Jay Dyermatter because it refutes your position, so you don't want it to matter.

47:19Pastor PYou They didn't translate it into German, and they didn't translate it into English.

47:22Jay DyerYour

47:22Pastor Pposition. They didn't translate it in German. They didn't translate it in English. They were gonna keep it as it were. So, you know, Martin Luther, thank god, he he took what Erasmus did and he went the next step and translate into German. And then thank god, the King James translators

47:38Jay DyerHe just rambles and asserts

47:39Pastor PHe went ahead.

47:40Jay DyerArgue. This is not even an argument. It's just him asserting his position and asserting how awesome Martin Luther is and

47:46Pastor PSo no. You don't so you you don't believe that God blessed the King James.

47:49Jay DyerIf your position is correct, and that's the thing in question.

47:51Pastor PRight? So you don't believe that God blessed the King James version at all?

47:54Jay DyerAgain, it's the received text, and many Orthodox churches use that text. So you're just

47:59Pastor Pignoring It's the not in English. The received text was in Greek. Okay? So what about the English? What about the German?

48:04Jay DyerJust based on the received text. Obviously, that's what I'm saying.

48:07Pastor POkay. And so why didn't the Greek Orthodox Church or the Eastern Orthodox Church translated into German and English so it could go around the world and be printed Because on the gluten burning

48:16Jay Dyerthe Roman Catholics are in Germany.

48:18Pastor POkay. But again,

48:20Pastor Pthey're gonna keep it in Greek. They're gonna keep it away.

48:23Pastor PSo what good is it if it's just in Greek?

48:25Jay DyerRambling just for a second. Do you understand that? Always translate

48:29Jay Dyerit into the vernacular.

48:32Pastor PYou've

48:32Pastor Pso the Greek when did the Greek Orthodox Church or the Eastern Orthodox Church translate the Bible into into English?

48:39Pastor PWhen was that?

48:40Jay DyerWhen they came to America.

48:45Pastor PI've I've not seen it. Sorry. I'm I'm gonna have to be ignorant on that. I've not seen it. But they're they didn't give it to Britain and they didn't as far as I know, I I've been in ministry for fifty years. I haven't seen I haven't seen a Greek Orthodox

48:57Jay Dyeran argument for the English teacher, which is what I've asked you.

48:59Pastor PI believe God has blessed

49:01Pastor PGod has blessed That's not an argument.

49:04Jay DyerI know that you think that, but I'm asking a specific point about how you know. And you're saying, I believe God blessed

49:09Pastor Pthis So you're gonna but no. You you are you gonna tell me that God did not bless what the what King James translators

49:16Pastor Pdid and

49:17Jay DyerYou're clivocating on blessing because God can bless anybody at any place. That doesn't mean that that's the right canon of scripture.

49:25Pastor PSo

49:27Pastor PI I can just

49:28Jay Dyerknow you're saying that I can turn that argument around on you and say that God has blessed the Orthodox churches for their preservation of the scripture in Russia.

49:34Jay DyerI mean, that doesn't prove anything. This is a non So

49:37Pastor Pso the

49:38Pastor Pthe

49:40Pastor Pgreat awakening here in the in The Americas before

49:43Jay DyerYeah. Although all of that is only a great awakening if your view is correct. Understand if Protestantism is correct, that's

49:48Pastor Pthe only way you don't

49:49Jay Dyerbelieve in it. Is a blessing and a great awakening. And that's the thing in question is whether

49:52Jesus Brea (caller)So you

49:52Pastor Pdon't think so? Correct. You don't think so?

49:54Jay DyerNo.

49:55Jay DyerEvery time you assert, wasn't a

49:57Pastor Pgreat no. So it wasn't a great awakening.

49:58Jay DyerI'm asking you about your position, not the thousand assertions of your position.

50:02Pastor PDo you understand that? No. I'm I'm asking you so you deny

50:05Pastor Pit sounds to me like you deny God's blessing on the the King James. You deny the great awakening. You're denying history.

50:12Jay DyerNot denying it. I'm saying it doesn't prove the point about who has the right canon. It's a very simple argument. I don't I'm sorry that you can't follow it. I'm sorry.

50:19Pastor POkay. So God I believe God is blessing his work.

50:22Jay DyerNone of that is an argument. The fact that people are certain no. It's not. Do you understand what an argument is?

50:27Proper Chadian (caller)Yeah. To bring an argument.

50:28AndrewTo kinda to kinda to kinda bring us back around again and see if we can close it one more time.

50:34AndrewPastor p, what he's what he's asking specifically here is,

50:38Andrewlook.

50:39AndrewFrom from your perspective,

50:42Andrewhe wants to know why you you think this is true, why you think Protestantism is true. You say because it has the blessing of God. Okay. Well, that's fair enough, but he's asking you, well, couldn't anybody say that? Why do you know that this is true?

50:55AndrewThat that this blessing is actually true? Why so he like, says, you you know, if I just said this book, for instance, is blessed by God, what makes that untrue?

51:05Pastor POkay. I believe God has supervised

51:08Pastor Pthe

51:09Pastor Pthe canon

51:10Jay DyerThat's collection

51:11Jay Dyernot an argument.

51:12Pastor PDown through

51:13Jay Dyerunderstand there's a difference between us stating a position and arguing the position.

51:16Pastor POkay. And and Erasmus ended up with that canon

51:20Pastor PAnd he

51:21Pastor Pcollected it, put it together for Martin Luther

51:24Pastor Pto translate it to German, to print and distribute,

51:28Pastor Pwhich then

51:29Pastor Pended up

51:31Pastor Pin the in the in the English Isles, British Isles, which ended up in America. I believe we we see the hand of God on his word.

51:39Jay DyerK. So this is argument, and I'm just gonna keep reinserting that this is not an argument until you make an actual

51:44Pastor Pargument.

51:46Pastor PAlright.

51:48Pastor PAs I said before, churches,

51:51Pastor Pmen,

51:53Pastor Pcan can become

51:56Pastor Pcorrupted

51:57Pastor Pas well as

51:59Pastor Pdeceived

52:00Pastor Pand so forth.

52:01Jay DyerAnd wasn't

52:01Pastor Pthe principle by which Carthage isn't So

52:04Pastor PI I I'm not saying Carthage was or wasn't corrupt. I believe they got it right as far as the canon. That one thing.

52:10Jay DyerWhat's the principle for that?

52:11Pastor PThat one thing.

52:11Jay DyerKnow that? What's the principle that you know that by?

52:14Pastor POh, the blessing of God over and over and over.

52:16Jay DyerYou know that it's the blessing of God? Because I anybody can say that.

52:20Pastor PWell, I I I believe that it's

52:21Jay Dyerbless my canon.

52:23Pastor PWell, I believe God I'll I'll have

52:26Jay Dyerto say interested in what you believe. I wanna know the arguments. Do you understand the difference between an argument and asserting your position and what you believe? Those are two different things.

52:33Pastor POkay. You if you if we go back to the great schism

52:38Pastor Pand we say and use and I guess you would say

52:41Pastor Pthat at the great schism, the eastern north eastern church separated

52:45Pastor Pfrom the western church. The western church grew much much larger. It's today

52:51Pastor Pfour times the size of the eastern church, which doesn't mean anything necessarily. Doesn't mean anything necessarily.

52:57Pastor PBut the eastern church kept its traditions, so it it stakes its life on those traditions and its liturgy etcetera etcetera which is not exactly the same as the Roman Church or the Anglican Church or the Lutheran Church. Everybody's got their their liturgy, you know. And

53:12Jay Dyerso understand that if I sat here and said that I believe my position over and over and over that that wouldn't constitute an argument.

53:18Pastor PK. But you're can you say that the just because the Eastern Church has their tradition that it's necessarily the right one?

53:27Pastor PWhat makes theirs right and they it's a schism. So one went one way, one went the other. Who's to say he's right?

53:33Jay DyerI'm sorry but do you not understand what do you know what logical fallacies are?

53:37Pastor PAre you not gonna answer my question? Yeah. Which one how do you know which is right?

53:41Jay DyerWhat you're asking is a fallacy.

53:44Pastor PThey're not the same. Yes. It is. There's no fallacy. They're not the same. K. Me give you example. Literacy is not the same.

53:50Jay DyerGive you an example why this is a fallacy. K?

53:53Jay DyerThere's 30,000 protestant denominations,

53:56Jay Dyertherefore,

53:57Jay Dyernobody knows which one is correct. That's a fallacy.

54:00Jay DyerThe fact that there's a bunch of denominations

54:02Jay Dyerhas literally nothing to do with which one is true and which ones are false. That's a fallacy.

54:09Jay DyerDo you not understand that? The same thing applies to the fact that there was an east west schism.

54:14Jay DyerThe fact that there's a schism has nothing to do with which one is true or false.

54:19Pastor PNo. But you're you're choosing one. No. You're choosing one. You chose one. Which why did you choose that one? Why?

54:25Jay DyerBecause it's not the false one because there's argumentation

54:28Jay Dyerbehind why.

54:30Pastor PAnd you don't think that there

54:31Pastor Pare a 100,000 Catholic priests that would would disagree with you on that in the same

54:36Jay DyerThat's way that is a fallacy. Has nothing to do with which one's true or false. It's not so do you think truth is determined by consensus?

54:42Pastor PI believe that every

54:44Pastor Pperson's got to choose

54:46Pastor Pbased on the word of God But what they're gonna

54:50Pastor Pthe fact that you have

54:50Jay Dyera choice doesn't have anything to do with what's true or false. So

54:55Jay Dyerif we all just have a consensus that two plus two is five, does it make it five?

54:59Pastor POkay.

55:01Pastor PI love that. That was actually something I had written down, that there is an absolute,

55:06Pastor Pand that's the word of God. It's an absolute.

55:09Pastor PAnd But at no point

55:11Jay Dyerhave you demonstrated that you have the correct word of God. You just asserted it.

55:15Pastor PAgain, I I believe that God

55:17Jay DyerDoesn't matter what you believe. It's whether you can prove that or not.

55:21Pastor PI I can prove that god used the the King James version to bless the

55:27Jay DyerYou didn't prove that. You just stated that many many times.

55:30Pastor PAnd the America I

55:32Pastor PI I see people getting saved in The Americas. I don't see people getting saved in the same way. Yeah. But it's

55:39Jay Dyerthat your position is wrong. If you're heterodox, they're not saved. You're just teaching heresy.

55:43Pastor PWell, I I believe that and I explained this earlier. I gave the gospel through repentance

55:48Pastor Pin of our sins and faith in the lord Jesus Christ, not through liturgy Right. So through baptism,

55:54Pastor Pnot not not through

55:55Pastor Pthe I'm

55:57Jay Dyernot gonna is it these are just fallacies. So so the the fact that you think that's the gospel doesn't have anything to do with what the canon of scripture is and proving that an objective way.

56:05Pastor PWell, I'm basing it on the word of God.

56:07Pastor PAs I understand it What the word of God is

56:10Jay Dyerand is the thing in question. So every time you restate that you're just following the word of God, you are begging the question because the word of God, in terms of its contents, is the thing that is in question. Do you not understand that?

56:21Pastor POkay. I I I don't think that again, you you have arbitrarily chosen

56:26Pastor Pwhich set which tradition, which church you're gonna be a part of.

56:29Jay DyerI'm happy to go into the reasons as to why orthodoxy is true in Rome and

56:32Pastor Pnot But

56:34Pastor Pthat's your decision.

56:36Jay DyerIt's not a decision. It's a decision based on arguments and proofs.

56:40Pastor PIt's a decision that

56:43Pastor Pyou make.

56:44Pastor PI when when

56:45Jay DyerYou can't don't so if I I might decide to believe that two plus two is four, and I might decide to believe that two plus two is five. The fact that I decide things doesn't make the truth relative.

56:55Jay DyerAnd you are arguing that people making decisions and disagreeing,

56:59Jay Dyerit sounds like makes truth relative. That's absurd.

57:02Pastor PTruth is not relative.

57:04Pastor PTruth is not relative. The word of God is absolute. The

57:07Pastor Proot word of God is absolute. That's why Paul said reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doubt.

57:12Jay DyerDon't know what else to say. I mean, is the most obtuse debate I've had in a long time, and I don't mean to be rude to you, but these are very simple points, and I can't if you can't understand how these are fallacies, I don't know what else I can tell you.

57:23Pastor PWell, it sounds to me like you

57:25Pastor Phave lifted a church

57:27Pastor Pinto a place of

57:30Pastor Pworship.

57:30Jay DyerWas an either or fallacy.

57:32Jay DyerSo the fact that I chose a church, right, as if I'm not choosing the bible, that's your false either

57:38Pastor Por not. Church is not that important that it can Who does who does Paul say is the pillar

57:42Jay Dyerand ground does Paul say the bible is the pillar and ground of church or the church?

57:46Pastor PThe church is the distributor of the truth. We stand for the holy

57:49Jay Dyersay that Timothy is the pillar and ground of truth?

57:51Pastor PIt's it's the church. But it is But not

57:54Jay Dyernot But not according to

57:55Pastor Pnot necessarily your church, you see. Or not And not necessarily my church. I Yeah. But in your

58:00Jay Dyerargument in your argument, it's not a church at all. It's the it's the text. Why doesn't Paul say that the pillar and ground truth is a written text?

58:06Pastor PAt that point, the bible the New Testament hadn't wasn't completed. Okay. Who put the who put the bible together? Again, as as I said, counsel of Carthage was they got I believe they got it right. I'm gonna I'm gonna accept what they said.

58:19Jay DyerAnd that is

58:19Pastor PAnd as well as as well as

58:21Jay Dyerno reason to choose them other than that's the canon that you want. That's arbitrary.

58:25Pastor PIt's

58:26Pastor Pnot the canon that I want. It's the canon that I received.

58:29Pastor PAnd just I believe that God blessed it and and authorized it

58:32Jay Dyeras his word. That's dishonest. You don't receive their canon.

58:36Pastor PI believe it's the authorized it's authorized by God.

58:39Jay DyerYeah. But because but you're just asserting your position because that's the canon that you believe

58:44Pastor PAnd see you

58:46Pastor Parbitrarily

58:47Pastor Pchoosing a church and lifting it up to a place that it doesn't

58:51Jay DyerI gave you a whole opening statement as to why the orthodox church has the liturgical tradition that the apostles handed down and none of the other ones do. So if you wanna talk about Roman Catholic stuff, I'm happy to argue that. We can prove that by going to the canons of the seven councils where they don't teach the papacy.

59:06Pastor POkay. The

59:09Pastor Pthe the the the eastern churches,

59:12Pastor Pthey're all they all have nuances of difference. That's why they're diff that's why they're not all one, you know, they're they're they're

59:19Pastor Pthere's

59:19Jay DyerWhat does this have

59:20Pastor Pto do? Different flavors. There's different flavors. So they have disagreements. So which one is right? Which one's right? They disagree with

59:27Jay Dyerthe two other options small things. The Orthodox churches don't disagree. If you're talking about the Coptics, that's a specific statement about Christology that we would have to go into. But you keep under not understanding that this is a fallacy.

59:39Jay DyerThe fact that people disagree has nothing to do with what's true or false. But Do not understand why that's a fallacy?

59:45Pastor PLook. There there are thousands as you just said, there are thousands of denominations.

59:49Pastor PCorrect. I believe you have arbitrarily chosen one.

59:52Jay DyerIt's not arbitrary because I'm happy to give you the reasons why the Orthodox Church is the right one.

59:57Pastor POkay. You can give me all kind of reasons, but they're it's arbitrary for you. And you're doing it because you

1:00:02Jay Dyershot yourself in the foot because that's that's relativism. So you are a boomer who, on the one hand, says there's absolute truth, but then everything else is relative when it challenges your position. So you're inconsistent.

1:00:13Pastor POkay. I'm sticking with the word of God.

1:00:16Jay DyerIt's

1:00:17Jay Dyernot actually the word of God. It's just what you want. And so the definition of heresy is to pick and choose,

1:00:22Jay Dyerand you do the very thing that you're saying, right, that I'm saying is is what heresy is. You pick and choose. I want Carthage because it has this. I don't want anything else Carthage has. That's picking and choosing. And according to Paul, to pick and choose is the definition of heresy.

1:00:38Pastor PWell, churches go awry.

1:00:40Pastor PChurches go astray. Leaders go astray. Leaders get corrupted. Teachers get corrupted. Doctrine gets corrupted. And if you're gonna put all your all your eggs

1:00:48Jay Dyeris not corrupted.

1:00:50Pastor PAnd if you're gonna put all your eggs in a church,

1:00:53Pastor Pif all you're gonna put all your faith in a church So all you've done I believe you could be leading Let us

1:00:57Jay Dyeryour own understanding. That's all you've done.

1:00:59Pastor PI'm I'm taking the word of God as I believe God is

1:01:01Significo (caller)It's not the word

1:01:02Jay Dyerof God. It's your own mental conception that you're following

1:01:05Pastor PI'm gonna take these 66 books. If you wanna call it arbitrary, that's fine.

1:01:09Jay DyerI don't know what else I can say. I mean, is just a repeating, like, boomer chasing his tail. So I don't know what else

1:01:14Pastor Pto say. You're not gonna you're not gonna dissuade me from the 66 books that I

1:01:19Jay Dyerhave No. Because you're not able to argue and you don't even understand what a fallacy is. I mean, you consistently make fallacies throughout this discussion and when I explain to you that it's a fallacy, you can't even recognize that it's do you know what a logical fallacy is?

1:01:31Pastor PDoesn't matter. I I'm not

1:01:33Jay Dyergonna lift the don't matter?

1:01:35Pastor PNot gonna lift okay.

1:01:37Pastor PI'm not gonna lift the church up above the word of god. Can't can't do it.

1:01:42AndrewSo I did I did have one maybe possible direction we could take this before we wrap it up, if you guys will humor me briefly.

1:01:50AndrewSola scriptura or the belief

1:01:53Andrewitself

1:01:54Andrewthat,

1:01:55Andrewthe bible alone

1:01:57Andrewis enough, that there's no there's no church authority. There's none of this type of thing. I I asked this to a person one time

1:02:05Andrewwhen it came to interpretation,

1:02:06Andrewfor instance. If I was blind and I couldn't

1:02:08Solomon (caller)I read

1:02:09Jay Dyerwant to to note that he said logical fallacies don't matter.

1:02:14Jay DyerQuote.

1:02:16Jay DyerThat's that's the surrendering of the debate. I would just want that on record. Sorry. Go ahead.

1:02:20AndrewOkay. No problem. So

1:02:23AndrewI asked I asked a guy one time, if you couldn't read and somebody else had to read the scripture for you, isn't somebody else interpreting it for you so it wouldn't be sola scriptura in and of itself?

1:02:36AndrewWould not be your own interpretation as somebody else is doing the interpretation.

1:02:41Pastor PTo read the bible, you're you're calling that interpreting?

1:02:44AndrewNo. I'm saying if somebody else has to read it for you.

1:02:48Pastor PAgain, if if someone is reading out loud the word of god to you, I don't call that interpreting.

1:02:54AndrewWell, I mean but

1:02:56Andrewyou're interpreting it based on what somebody else says. You're not reading it for yourself. Right?

1:03:02AndrewLike, how would you know how would you know if they were lying, for instance?

1:03:05Pastor PWell, look.

1:03:10Pastor PHear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one, and you shall teach these to your children. Hear. It the the primary thing is for for to hear the word of God, not not necessarily to read it, but to hear it to hear it with your ears, to hear it with your heart, to hear it with your mind.

1:03:25Pastor PSo to to for someone to read the word of God to you is not interpreting the word of God. It's just to hear it to so you can hear it in a with your ears as opposed to seeing it with your eyes. That's all. It's just another gateway

1:03:38Jay DyerDid you make a do you make a choice at some point in your life to

1:03:43Jay Dyerbelieve this or that bible?

1:03:45Pastor PNo. I I I grew up

1:03:47Jay Dyerwith the I

1:03:49Pastor Pwell, I grew up with the King James.

1:03:50Jay DyerDid you make a are you choosing to to follow and use the King James?

1:03:54Pastor PI I don't use the King James today. K. I use a Whatever bible you use, did you choose?

1:03:59Pastor PI

1:04:01Pastor Pthere were really no other bibles when I was a boy, you know. Whatever bible you used

1:04:05Pastor PSeventy years ago. You

1:04:06Jay Dyerchoose that?

1:04:07Pastor PNo.

1:04:08Pastor PYou you didn't make I guess what was available. It was what was available.

1:04:11Jay DyerAre you con are you continuing today to choose whatever bible that you use?

1:04:17Pastor PI use several different Bibles.

1:04:19Jay DyerSo Okay. When you wake up one morning and you choose a Bible to read, is that a choice you make?

1:04:24Pastor PYes, of course.

1:04:25Jay DyerOkay. By your logic earlier, that's an arbitrary choice that you made, and you don't know that you have the right Bible.

1:04:31Pastor PWell, believe that there are different types

1:04:34Pastor Pof translations. Some are wooden.

1:04:36Jay DyerYou not hear argument that I just made?

1:04:38Pastor PI'm trying to explain. Some are wooden and some are conversational.

1:04:42Pastor PSo sometimes I'm

1:04:43Jay Dyera Making a logical point. You said that choices are arbitrary to you and that means subjective. So you're confusing

1:04:50Jay Dyerarbitrariness

1:04:50Jay Dyerwith subjectivity.

1:04:52Jay DyerThose are two different things.

1:04:53Rambling Man (caller)Right?

1:04:53Pastor PSometimes I want a conversational bible. Sometimes I want

1:04:56Jay Dyera wooden listening.

1:04:57Jay DyerYou literally can't hear what I

1:04:58Pastor Panswered your question.

1:04:59Jay DyerYou're not answering the question because I'm making it very clear to you.

1:05:03Pastor POkay.

1:05:04Jay DyerSo Did you make a did you make a choice?

1:05:06Pastor PWell,

1:05:08Pastor PI I've

1:05:09Pastor Pthe years

1:05:10Pastor Psince I've studied the bible Yes,

1:05:11Jay DyerI arbitrary.

1:05:12Jay DyerSaid my choice of orthodoxy is arbitrary.

1:05:15Jay DyerThat dumb argument falls back on you because every choice that you make would then be arbitrary and then everything would be subjective. Do you understand that that's a self refuting position?

1:05:24Pastor PWell, what I understand is that

1:05:26Pastor Pin

1:05:27Jay DyerYou're not even listening.

1:05:28Pastor PIn in my mind, I cannot place a church higher than the word of God.

1:05:33AndrewAlright. Well, gentlemen,

1:05:35AndrewI'm going to stop the debate there. I don't feel like we're making much in the way of progress. Are both of you guys okay with that?

1:05:42Jay DyerYes. That's fine.

1:05:43AndrewOkay. Gotcha.

1:05:44AndrewSo callers,

1:05:46Andrewthere's usually a little bit of overlap here. I'm gonna ask a couple questions myself. Callers can hop in if they want to. Jay, you got time for a couple of callers?

1:05:53Pastor PSure.

1:05:54AndrewOkay. And do you, pastor p, have a couple of, few minutes for callers? Okay. Appreciate that. So,

1:06:00Andrewpastor p,

1:06:02Andrewthis I think that this debate's been somewhat frustrating for the audience.

1:06:06AndrewI take notes the entire time a debate's going on.

1:06:10AndrewI consider that to be a very important task for a moderator to do. But

1:06:14Andrewwhen we're talking about the contention of these arguments,

1:06:18AndrewJay Jay himself is he's really just asking you why you believe this thing. Do you have a justification outside of I just believe it? That's why.

1:06:27AndrewThat's really what he's asking.

1:06:30Pastor PAnd I said, first of all, I I agree with the suppositions

1:06:33Pastor Pmade at the Council of Carthage, the two primary suppositions that define

1:06:38Pastor Pthe canon

1:06:40Pastor Pwith these books.

1:06:41Pastor PAnd then I've I believe God has blessed

1:06:44Pastor Pthe Texas receptus

1:06:46Pastor Pthrough the King James through the years.

1:06:50Jay DyerYeah. And, again, asserting a position isn't an argument.

1:06:54AndrewRight. It's so what what you're doing is you're you're just kinda stating what you believe.

1:06:59AndrewFirst caller in, Joel Olstein.

1:07:01AndrewCan you hear me okay?

1:07:04Joel Olsteen (caller)Yeah. Can you hear me?

1:07:05AndrewYeah. Go ahead with, with your question, sir.

1:07:09Joel Olsteen (caller)Yeah. I'm curious when when two people come and they both read the bible and someone gets a different interpretation,

1:07:15Joel Olsteen (caller)how do you know who's correct and who's incorrect?

1:07:18Joel Olsteen (caller)And that's for pastor p.

1:07:23Pastor PWhat I what I'm hoping is that we can dig into the word of God.

1:07:28Pastor PWe can take his whatever scriptures pertain to to to that doctrine, that that thought that they have, and try to parse it out so that we come to a biblical understanding,

1:07:39Pastor Pa biblical position.

1:07:42Joel Olsteen (caller)Okay. I have a follow-up question for that because the I think what Jay is trying to point out is that what's in question

1:07:49Joel Olsteen (caller)is what an actual biblical understanding

1:07:52Joel Olsteen (caller)is. So when we go and we say we we try to parse it out and come to a biblical understanding,

1:07:59Joel Olsteen (caller)that's what's in question. That's what we're trying to find out. So we haven't found that yet, but we're trying to use that as our metric, as our ruler to say what a biblical understanding is. And that's, that's a very big problem.

1:08:12Pastor PWell, I

1:08:15Pastor PI try to be consistent

1:08:17Pastor Pas I study the Bible and teach the Bible. I try to be consistent with old and new testaments,

1:08:23Pastor Pputting stringing passages of scripture together, letting the Bible interpret itself,

1:08:28Pastor Pand

1:08:29Pastor Pstick with the word and and let the word

1:08:32Pastor Ptell us what is the truth.

1:08:35Pastor PThy Jesus said thy word is truth.

1:08:39Joel Olsteen (caller)K. But if so let's say,

1:08:42Joel Olsteen (caller)you know, I read the Bible and I came to the Eastern Orthodox Christian understanding, which is what I've done, and you've come to it and you've come to a different understanding. How do we know who's correct and who's incorrect?

1:08:51Pastor PWell, as far as I'm concerned, we get into the word of God, and the one that agrees most with the word is correct.

1:08:58Joel Olsteen (caller)But what we're judging,

1:09:01Joel Olsteen (caller)what we're trying to judge, you know, correctness of the Bible with is our own interpretations.

1:09:07Pastor PWell, again,

1:09:09Pastor PI've done my best through the years to let the Bible speak for for itself and to be as consistent as I can with the doctrines, the teachings,

1:09:19Pastor Pand and let it let it interpret itself.

1:09:22Pastor PAnd for me, it's been a way of life.

1:09:26Joel Olsteen (caller)Well, and I don't I would never disagree that you've done your best and that

1:09:31Joel Olsteen (caller)you've tried to make it a way of life, but

1:09:34Joel Olsteen (caller)the Orthodox Church has done the same thing, but we've done it for two thousand years. So

1:09:38Joel Olsteen (caller)I'm I just I'm trying to point out, and then I'll get off the call. I'm sure we have other callers.

1:09:43Joel Olsteen (caller)I'm trying to point out that by the stand

1:09:45AndrewYou can take your time. You can take your time here, Palam.

1:09:48Joel Olsteen (caller)Okay. I'll I'll I'll take my time then.

1:09:51Joel Olsteen (caller)What I'm trying to point out is that by

1:09:53Joel Olsteen (caller)the standard that you're laying forth, you would have to accept that we are also correct.

1:10:02Pastor PIf you if you're studying the word of God and doing your best to interpret the word of God, you know, I'll give you I'll give I'll

1:10:11Pastor Pgive you credit that we may end up coming to the same conclusions.

1:10:15Pastor PYou know, you if a person comes with a quest a biblical question, if you're

1:10:19Pastor Psquaring it with the word of God, then we may end up with the same answer.

1:10:25Joel Olsteen (caller)And if we don't end up with the same answer,

1:10:28Joel Olsteen (caller)and,

1:10:29Joel Olsteen (caller)like like, you and Jay and and me and you haven't come up with the same answer, though, obviously, you know,

1:10:34Joel Olsteen (caller)I agree that you're sincere and, of course, would never doubt that, you know, you've studied, so have I, so has Jay for his whole life. And we've come to different conclusions. So now what do we do to parse out who is correct and who is incorrect?

1:10:47Pastor PWell, we may have to agree to disagree, but we can still have fellowship around the

1:10:52Pastor PLord Jesus Christ and his Holy Spirit.

1:10:56Pastor PWe do you do you agree that with the gospel that I gave that Jesus died, paid for our sins,

1:11:04Pastor Pand we must repent and believe in him. Do you agree with that?

1:11:07Joel Olsteen (caller)There's a lot to unpack there. I can agree with the words, but I may not agree with the concepts tied up with that. So for instance,

1:11:14Joel Olsteen (caller)when you say he died for our sins, do you think that,

1:11:17Joel Olsteen (caller)that means that Jesus was punished on the cross in in in place of us?

1:11:22Joel Olsteen (caller)Yes.

1:11:24Joel Olsteen (caller)That's part can one person of the Trinity be punished by another person of the Holy Trinity?

1:11:30Pastor PWell, the

1:11:31Pastor Pfather

1:11:32Pastor Pchose to place this our sins upon him, and he took he who knew no sin became sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God in him. So he took our our our pain, our shame, our punishment, our guilt. He took it all, and he drank the cup to the bitter dregs, and he he took my place on the cross so that I could receive the grace of God,

1:11:59Pastor Pbecause of his death for me and the blood that was shed for me and the price that was paid. Today, I can receive it for myself.

1:12:08Jay DyerWell, there there's a rapper master p. Is that where pastor p comes from? Was it a playing on the name of a rapper?

1:12:15Pastor PNo. No. No. I've been pastor p for many, many, many years.

1:12:19Jay DyerWell, he's probably 35 or 40. So

1:12:22Pastor PWell, I'm almost 70, so, no, it's not a play.

1:12:25Joel Olsteen (caller)I've I've already mastered you. I've been raised for 70.

1:12:27Jay DyerHe got master p from pastor p, actually.

1:12:29Pastor PI've I've been well, maybe, but I've been pastor p for for fifty years. So yeah.

1:12:34Joel Olsteen (caller)Well, pastor p, you look I hope I look as good as you look when I'm when I'm 70.

1:12:38Jay DyerWell, I I play

1:12:39Pastor Pbasketball twice a week, and God has been good to me. I I still work a full time job, and God's been good to me.

1:12:46Joel Olsteen (caller)Very cool. I I if I if I have time for one more question,

1:12:49Joel Olsteen (caller)I'd like to,

1:12:52Joel Olsteen (caller)bring up the fact that if

1:12:54Joel Olsteen (caller)if Christ literally took on

1:12:57Joel Olsteen (caller)became guilty,

1:12:58Joel Olsteen (caller)right, how is, then that would mean that that god who, in essence, is goodness and can't perform evil and can't perform bad,

1:13:08Joel Olsteen (caller)he took on a change in his essence and

1:13:10Joel Olsteen (caller)became,

1:13:12Joel Olsteen (caller)you know,

1:13:14Joel Olsteen (caller)separated from the rest of the holy trinity.

1:13:17Joel Olsteen (caller)So I'm curious as

1:13:18Pastor Pto

1:13:18Joel Olsteen (caller)how you can reconcile

1:13:19Pastor Pthat Exactly.

1:13:20Joel Olsteen (caller)With your interpretation.

1:13:21Pastor PYes. That perfect. Yes. Exactly.

1:13:25Pastor PThat's why Jesus said on the cross.

1:13:28Pastor PWell, first of all, let's go back to the garden. He said, you know, if there's any other way,

1:13:34Pastor Pfather, let this cup pass for me. Nevertheless, not my will, but thine be done. And then he he turned to Peter. He said, my soul is exceedingly sorrowful even unto death. He was already feeling the pain, the shame, the guilt, the grief for our sin. And then on the cross, he said, my

1:13:52Pastor PGod, my God, why have you forsaken me? The father forsook his son.

1:13:57Pastor PAnd, it was it was dark for the space of an hour because it was a picture of the father turning his back on his son

1:14:06Pastor Pin

1:14:07Pastor Pmy place

1:14:08Pastor Pto taking taking my place on the cross.

1:14:12Joel Olsteen (caller)And then maybe, Jay, can you give the orthodox interpretation of the guard of Gethsemane,

1:14:17Joel Olsteen (caller)if you would?

1:14:19Jay DyerYeah. So the orthodox view is that

1:14:21Jay Dyerdeath, in terms of the son of God undergoing death, is the severance of his human soul from his human body. Given the fact that he's a divine person, he's identical to the logos. He is the second person of Godhead.

1:14:33Jay DyerThere's no way that the Trinity can split itself or damn one of the persons or something like this. It's absolutely impossible. So that would lead to either Nestorianism

1:14:42Jay Dyeror some form of Arianism.

1:14:44Jay DyerThe death of Christ is the severance of his human soul from his human body and his descent into Hades, which David describes in many, many, many Psalms going into Hades. And Peter says that the gospel was preached to the dead in Hades,

1:14:57Jay Dyerknown in orthodox theology as the heroin of Hades, and then we have the ascent of Christ in our nature to cleanse the way so that we can go into the hell holy of holies in heaven, which is the third heavens,

1:15:08Jay Dyerwhich is the meaning of the day of atonement according to Hebrews. So that's that's our understanding of that.

1:15:15Joel Olsteen (caller)Awesome. And should I get out of here, Andrew? Or maybe

1:15:18AndrewI'm Yeah. We do we do have a caller behind you. Appreciate you calling in so much. Mister,

1:15:23Andrewhave a great day.

1:15:25AndrewJ j y Lewis, go ahead.

1:15:28JY Lewis (caller)Hey. So I had a question for

1:15:30JY Lewis (caller)pastor p.

1:15:33JY Lewis (caller)You you appealed to the council of Carthage, I believe, and said that you agree with the

1:15:40JY Lewis (caller)presuppositions

1:15:41JY Lewis (caller)that they had

1:15:43JY Lewis (caller)there.

1:15:44JY Lewis (caller)But a lot of the people that attended that council also believed fundamentally

1:15:49JY Lewis (caller)in

1:15:51JY Lewis (caller)the authority of the councils and the authority of the bishops to come to conclusions on things. So how do you how do you determine which things that they, they got right in that council and what things they got, that they maybe weren't right? Or how do you determine

1:16:06JY Lewis (caller)the validity of what they're saying

1:16:09JY Lewis (caller)when they believe the contradictory thing that you believe?

1:16:13Pastor PWell, may maybe what I'm saying is sub subjective and I and and so be it. But

1:16:19Pastor PI believe that God has blessed the their decision

1:16:22Pastor Pto choose the books that are in the New Testament canon over and over and over. He has blessed those books. And that's the books that that's the books we have today.

1:16:30JY Lewis (caller)Then then how comes other

1:16:33JY Lewis (caller)how come those same bishops accepted,

1:16:37JY Lewis (caller)different canons

1:16:38JY Lewis (caller)from the other councils then later on?

1:16:41Pastor PWell, they didn't they didn't, like, elevate those canons to the same authority as the as the the what was agreed to on as the New Testament. They're not they're not at the same level.

1:16:52JY Lewis (caller)How do you how do you come to that conclusion?

1:16:54Pastor PWell, if

1:16:56Pastor Pyou look at a Greek Orthodox Bible, Eastern Orthodox Bible, it doesn't have a thousand books in it. You know?

1:17:02AndrewIt's it's

1:17:03Andrewlimited. It's limited.

1:17:04JY Lewis (caller)More than you do. Right? You have your 66 books, but the

1:17:08JY Lewis (caller)the They

1:17:09Pastor Phave the Apocrypha, but the Apocrypha is Jewish.

1:17:11JY Lewis (caller)Has different

1:17:13Pastor PWell, the Apocrypha is Jewish. Septuagint Septuagint

1:17:16Pastor Pis Jewish.

1:17:17Pastor POkay. That's so so they're they're but they're not bringing in every deuterocanonical

1:17:22Pastor Pbook in in their bible. Their their bible is basically the same as mine and and you add the apocryphal books as well

1:17:29Jay Dyeras clear that deuterocanon

1:17:31Jay Dyeris the books that are called the apocrypha, which are in the canon.

1:17:35Jay DyerSo that is part of our bible.

1:17:36Pastor PThey're all Jewish. You know? They that's where Maccabees and Baal and the dragon and so forth are. And that's

1:17:44Pastor Pthat's all Jewish. That that had nothing to

1:17:46JY Lewis (caller)percent sure about the the maybe Jay can answer this because I

1:17:52JY Lewis (caller)I'm not as well informed on this, but doesn't Christ and the apostles throughout the New Testament reference books that are not in the canon?

1:18:01Jay DyerYeah. Yeah. I cited it in my opening statement.

1:18:03JY Lewis (caller)Okay.

1:18:04JY Lewis (caller)So that that's that's all I had. I just wanted to say that it seems,

1:18:08JY Lewis (caller)pastor p, that if the New Testament is referencing and the, they're referencing books that your canon doesn't have, doesn't that pose a major issue for you? And that's just kind of one I wanna leave. Maybe you can answer that and go back for a little bit on. Appreciate it. Thanks, guys.

1:18:25Pastor PThank you.

1:18:29AndrewOkay. We gotta get to our next caller here.

1:18:32AndrewSignifico,

1:18:33Andrewcan you hear me okay?

1:18:35Significo (caller)Yes. Can you hear me?

1:18:36AndrewI can. Go ahead with your question, sir.

1:18:38Significo (caller)Hey, crucible crew. Appreciate

1:18:40Significo (caller)the show. First question's for Andrew. Andrew,

1:18:43Significo (caller)you're smoking. You got that going. When are you gonna can I buy you a Zippo lighter? Because that dick is gay. Can I buy you a Zippo and send it to you?

1:18:52AndrewYou can. Can. But but only but only if you put something awesome on it. Right? So that's that's I'll

1:18:59Significo (caller)get I'll get with you on Telegram.

1:19:01AndrewAlright. Alright.

1:19:02Significo (caller)So,

1:19:03Significo (caller)question or conversation or whatever for Jay. Jay, much love to you. I love your debates. I love watching you, especially against atheists and other religions and whatnot.

1:19:11Significo (caller)I, I'm not an orthodox, but I'm nowhere close to even being close to debating you. I'm gonna let you know. So I'm really more kinda trying to pick your brain.

1:19:21Significo (caller)What I hear a lot of,

1:19:23Significo (caller)a lot of orthodox people say, one of their I don't know if you wanna call it a gotcha or what, but they say actually, one of the callers brought it up. So what happens when two people disagree on a verse?

1:19:33Significo (caller)I don't see that as being very much of a problem. I believe you're coming from the position that if there's a disagreement, it's whatever the church says. Right? You go with what the church says.

1:19:43Jay DyerAre you asking me how does an orthodox person determine the disagreements?

1:19:47Jay DyerYeah.

1:19:48Significo (caller)You would default to what the church says. Right? I'll I'll just go into my question. Well, I

1:19:52Jay Dyermean, it's it's also it's also a question of the nature of of the disagreement. I mean, we don't think everything is, you know, encompassed in dogma. We think there are certain doctrines that are way more important than others. For example, the trinity and the deed of Christ are absolutely

1:20:06Jay Dyercentral to all of orthodoxy. So for example,

1:20:10Jay Dyerwe can't, like, have feel a on

1:20:12Jay Dyerthose, but, you know, what a specific text in the book of, I don't know,

1:20:17Jay Dyersong of song a song of songs means? Can there be varying interpretations of that? Sure. Because that's not directly affecting the fundamentals of the faith, which would be things like, you know, what are outlined in the Nicene Creed, for example.

1:20:29Significo (caller)Mhmm.

1:20:30Significo (caller)Okay. Yeah. I think you kinda got to sort of what my question is. I was gonna ask about

1:20:35Significo (caller)when,

1:20:35Significo (caller)you know, Paul writes

1:20:37Significo (caller)you know, he he has disagreements,

1:20:40Significo (caller)he discusses how to handle disagreements and things like that. And if there was a central authority that was under direct inspiration from god

1:20:48Significo (caller)in the same way that the writers of the original bible were. Why would he ever, you know, make allowance for disagreements if someone's gonna have the answer, whoever the current leader of the orthodox church would have that answer?

1:21:00Jay DyerRight. So every position,

1:21:02Jay Dyerwill struggle with people having arg dis arguments and disagreements.

1:21:06Jay DyerSo this is not something that's a unique feature of orthodoxy.

1:21:10Jay DyerEvery group, has people who disagree.

1:21:13Jay DyerBut that's a separate question from whether there's objective truth and who is in fact correct and who's in fact wrong. So these are all different questions. So

1:21:21Jay Dyerwe would say that, you know, in

1:21:23Jay Dyeracts two at Pentecost,

1:21:25Jay Dyerthe spirit comes in fulfillment of what Jesus promised in John fourteen fifteen sixteen seventeen, that the spirit would be the one that guides the church into all truth and that it would not leave the church. So there's a mystery between

1:21:37Jay Dyerhuman free will and synergy and the guidance of the church. And for the orthodox

1:21:42Significo (caller)You heard that answer. Sorry.

1:21:44Solomon (caller)Go ahead.

1:21:45Jay DyerFor the orthodox, we would say that

1:21:48Jay Dyereven despite human weakness,

1:21:50Jay Dyerthere's still a providential guidance for the church. And so, for example, as pastor p would believe that the the divine providence guides the

1:21:58Jay Dyerinspiration and preservation of the text, I would agree with him. But where I disagree is that he wants that to be apart from

1:22:05Jay Dyerhuman instruments

1:22:07Jay Dyerwithin history. I'm just simply admitting that, no, there are human instruments within history. And in fact, we can identify who that body of people is as the instrument within history. It's not a vacuum where it's just me in the bible. It's actually a historical process of a church that has existed in every generation.

1:22:24Jay DyerSo for example, you can go to Ephesus,

1:22:26Jay Dyerand you can find that church that Paul was writing those letters to. There's an orthodox church in Ephesus. It's the exact same church. That doesn't mean that every orthodox church always preserves it. People can fall away.

1:22:36Jay DyerPeople can go off into heresies. They can apostatize.

1:22:39Jay DyerYou have in apocalypse two and three, Jesus says, if you keep doing this, I will remove your lampstand. Right? So there's the possibility of being grafted out. Paul warned the church of Rome in Romans 11.

1:22:49Jay DyerThey could be grafted out if they keep teaching or falling into error or heresy. So

1:22:54Jay Dyerthe question of authority in the orthodox church usually comes down to the local bishop. There's nobody higher than a local bishop. There's no pope.

1:23:01Jay DyerIt doesn't mean the local bishop is is infallible,

1:23:04Jay Dyerbut the local bishop is the highest local authority, and the the bishops meet in synods. In the history of the church, even before the council of Nicaea, the normative structure and and government of the church is local synods. The Orthodox church still operates that way. It still operates on the basis of local synodal government.

1:23:23Significo (caller)So what threshold would an orthodox leader need to cross in order to become heretical and therefore

1:23:30Significo (caller)this person's no longer the ultimate authority of God on earth? Move on to the next guy.

1:23:35Jay DyerYeah. So, I mean, you have countless examples in church history of bishops who have fallen into heresy, and, that decision is typically made by their local synod.

1:23:44Significo (caller)So is is it that if it conflicts with the already existing scripture, or is it if

1:23:50Significo (caller)of all due respect, or is it if it just some other orthodox leader says this guy's lost his money?

1:23:55Jay DyerNo. It's it's a question. So we have a thing called canon law. Right? This is the this is the history of Western Christendom has, even the West, has canon law.

1:24:04Jay DyerAnd so go read the councils and read the canons of Nicaea, for example, and you'll see the first example of canon law. There's also the apostolic canons. Right? So it's a decision that's made by a synod looking at church law, ecclesiastical law, which we think Christ gave the power to the church to do that. In Matthew 16, he says the gates of hell would not prevail against the church. And he says that the church has the office of the keys,

1:24:27Jay DyerMatthew 16, as well as two chapters later to Matthew 18. So the same thing that's said to Peter about keys in Matthew 16

1:24:34Jay Dyeris also stated to the whole college of the apostles in Matthew 18.

1:24:37Jay DyerJesus also breathes on the apostles and says, whoever sins, you remit, they're remitted. Whoever sins, you retain, they're retained. So for us, all of those functions are part of the apostolic ministry. Jesus says to the apostles, he who hears you, hears me. Paul passes on that authority to Timothy in Ephesus as his only representative example in Ephesus.

1:24:57Jay DyerSo there's no there's not, like, a one size fits all answer like like the Roman Catholic. Oh, the pope decides all these things. Well, in the history of the church, the pope didn't decide all these things. It was the decision of the synod basing itself on what had been received and passed down in the councils and in the canons. So in other words, let's say we're at the council of Ephesus

1:25:17Jay Dyerand Saint Cyril is condemning Nestorius.

1:25:20Jay DyerWhat's the basis for Nestorius being condemned? Because Nestorius was the highest patriarch in all of Eastern Christianity. He was the patriarch of Constantinople.

1:25:28Jay DyerAnd yet he was started he started teaching

1:25:31Jay Dyerthis idea that there was a dual subject in Christ,

1:25:34Jay Dyerthe eternal logos and the subject of the historical person, Jesus of Nazareth.

1:25:39Jay DyerThis is condemned by Ephesus. Ephesus says, we don't see this in the scriptures. We don't see this in the teachings of the fathers, and we don't see it in the teachings of the canons, which have been received from the previous councils.

1:25:49Jay DyerSo that's the modus operandi of the councils when they condemn bishops of Paul into heresy.

1:25:55Jay DyerYeah.

1:25:55AndrewI appreciate your response, man. Yeah. We color, I'm I'm afraid we have to move on to some other colors. We only have so much dire voice to go around tonight, I'm afraid. But I did hear the Zippo click, so that was good.

1:26:07AndrewYou have yourself a wonderful evening. Appreciate it very much.

1:26:11AndrewBible believer, go ahead. Can you hear me okay?

1:26:15Bible Believer (caller)Yes. Can you hear me?

1:26:17AndrewWe can. You're a little bit low.

1:26:19Pastor POkay.

1:26:19AndrewSo maybe, speak up. Use, use the big boy voice. Right? Go ahead.

1:26:23Bible Believer (caller)I will use my big boy voice. Can you hear?

1:26:27Bible Believer (caller)Okay.

1:26:28Bible Believer (caller)Yeah.

1:26:28Bible Believer (caller)So pastor p, you said

1:26:32Bible Believer (caller)modern Judaism doesn't have a liturgy,

1:26:35Bible Believer (caller)but second temple Judaism where Christ would have worshiped

1:26:39Bible Believer (caller)does not resemble modern Judaism by

1:26:42Bible Believer (caller)modern Judaism's

1:26:43Bible Believer (caller)own admission.

1:26:44Bible Believer (caller)So I just wanted to clarify that.

1:26:47Pastor PI'm not sure I said that Judaism doesn't have a liturgy. I'm saying that the liturgy that I've seen in synagogues, and I've been to numerous synagogues, I don't see anything quite like it in

1:26:58Sarah Mer (caller)Okay.

1:26:58Pastor PIn churches. So I I Right. He I thought he was saying that, the liturgy that that, had was in the synagogues

1:27:06Pastor Pwas being

1:27:08Pastor Prepeated in the church, and I I haven't seen that. Is that a misunderstanding?

1:27:12Jay DyerNo. That makes sense.

1:27:13Proper Chadian (caller)What I

1:27:13Jay Dyerwas saying was that the

1:27:16Jay Dyerif you read liturgical scholars from various traditions, including Roman Catholic, Anglican, and Orthodox, and perhaps even other Protestant scholars, what and even Lutherans. What you would have is the admission that

1:27:27Jay Dyerin the early church,

1:27:29Jay Dyerthe worship service that the church is doing in the first and second century

1:27:33Jay Dyerarises out of a combination

1:27:35Jay Dyerof the liturgical worship of the temple and the synagogue. I'm not saying that today's synagogue worship is identical to what the apostles are doing.

1:27:46Bible Believer (caller)Okay. That was just a point of clarification.

1:27:49Bible Believer (caller)But I wanted to ask you, pastor P,

1:27:53Bible Believer (caller)is everything that you believe today a product of your own right to private judgment, sola scriptura?

1:28:01Bible Believer (caller)Everything you believe about the Bible?

1:28:04Pastor PWell, I've been under the teaching of other

1:28:08Pastor PBible teachers

1:28:10Pastor Pfor my whole my whole life. It's not my own it's not just my study, but the study of other men and women of God that

1:28:19Pastor Pinform

1:28:20Pastor Pme

1:28:21Pastor Pand help me get a fuller teaching. So I haven't come to all these conclusions myself. I will say though that I get up every morning and I spend

1:28:31Pastor Pfour,

1:28:33Pastor Pabout four hours in the word I every

1:28:35Bible Believer (caller)don't wanna take up too much time. I'll

1:28:38Bible Believer (caller)just touch off and I just wanted to know, like, you know, that you do acknowledge other people are you're gleaming information from other people within your tradition.

1:28:48Bible Believer (caller)And so I just wanted to ask you, is the list of books

1:28:52Bible Believer (caller)infallible?

1:28:55Pastor PI believe it is.

1:28:56Bible Believer (caller)So

1:28:57Bible Believer (caller)there's something outside of the Bible that's infallible?

1:29:01Pastor PI'm sorry. What what books are you talking about? Are you talking about the The 66 books. 66 books? I believe that that's that's infallible.

1:29:07Bible Believer (caller)I Okay.

1:29:08Jay DyerSo I'm sorry. I

1:29:10Jay DyerSo you're saying that you're saying that the council of Carthage was infallible in that case?

1:29:14Pastor PIn that case, yes.

1:29:17Bible Believer (caller)Okay. So sola scriptura is not what you believe then. Then you do believe

1:29:21Jay Dyerbelieve in infallible authorities outside of the the bible.

1:29:24Pastor PWell, the books were there. They just had to be confirmed.

1:29:27Pastor PThat's it. They were there, and god confirmed them.

1:29:29Bible Believer (caller)Did the early church ever operate without a definite canon and for how long?

1:29:34Pastor PYeah. I that is a

1:29:37Pastor Pthere were other there were lots of things that that's the whole reason, as I understand it, why the council had to be had to deal with it because there were so many books,

1:29:47Pastor Pso many books.

1:29:49Bible Believer (caller)Yeah.

1:29:49Pastor PThey and and we now call those other books pseudo canonical. So

1:29:53Pastor Por extra canonical,

1:29:55Pastor Pbut they had to decide what what is the word of God. And Right. And I believe God gave them wisdom in that in that regard.

1:30:01Bible Believer (caller)Okay. It's pretty interesting. Just a a thought then I'll leave.

1:30:05Bible Believer (caller)That the doctrine of the Trinity and, you know, Christology

1:30:08Bible Believer (caller)was ingrained

1:30:09Bible Believer (caller)prior to a canon and the church somehow you can trust the church in trinity Christology in a canon, you somehow don't think simple matters like having a priest is something that the church can come to truth on.

1:30:22Bible Believer (caller)But

1:30:22Pastor PCorrect. Correct.

1:30:23Bible Believer (caller)That it's just that's interesting.

1:30:24Pastor PYep. Don't believe in priests.

1:30:26AndrewAlright.

1:30:27AndrewAlright. Yeah. Thank you so much, bible believer. Have yourself a great night. We got a couple more callers passes.

1:30:32Jay DyerI would can I add something on that point?

1:30:34AndrewOf course.

1:30:36AndrewGo ahead.

1:30:38Jay DyerIf you look up the Dura Europa Synagogue, which is an early synagogue, it's actually mentioned in the orthodox liturgy book by

1:30:47Jay DyerI think it's Oxford Oxford book, but Hugh is the author.

1:30:51Jay DyerAnd he's a Protestant scholar at Oxford, and he traces the history of liturgical worship

1:30:56Jay Dyerto the apostolic era. And one of the things he mentions is the

1:31:00Jay DyerJewish the famous synagogue called Dura

1:31:03Jay DyerEuropa synagogue,

1:31:05Jay Dyerand I think it's from the second or third century. If you look this synagogue up, you'll notice that it looks just like an orthodox church. It has icons and all over the walls.

1:31:14Jay DyerThat's all.

1:31:15AndrewAlright.

1:31:16AndrewThank you so much for that. Bible believer, can you hear me okay?

1:31:22AndrewBible believer, can you

1:31:23Pastor Phear it was Solomon. I think you were bringing Solomon on.

1:31:26AndrewOh, yeah. Sorry about that. Solomon, can you hear me okay?

1:31:30AndrewSolomon,

1:31:31Andrewyour, your mic is muted. Can you hear us?

1:31:34Solomon (caller)Yeah. I can hear you.

1:31:36AndrewOkay. Go ahead with your question, sir.

1:31:39Solomon (caller)Okay. So to preface, I'm not I'm not versed in debate and logic

1:31:44Solomon (caller)and history like j or

1:31:47Solomon (caller)pastor p,

1:31:48Solomon (caller)But I I think I could see the

1:31:51Solomon (caller)problem in this debate why it's not moving forward.

1:31:54Solomon (caller)And I think the main question that needs to be answered for pastor p is

1:31:59Solomon (caller)what is the word of God,

1:32:01Solomon (caller)and why do you believe

1:32:03Solomon (caller)that what you believe the word of God is

1:32:06Solomon (caller)to be

1:32:07Solomon (caller)instead of just saying

1:32:10Solomon (caller)instead of just saying I believe.

1:32:13Solomon (caller)Because

1:32:14Solomon (caller)on the other end, could say could say that as well, and that's not a justification for

1:32:20Solomon (caller)that belief.

1:32:22Solomon (caller)So

1:32:23Solomon (caller)what is the word of God,

1:32:25Solomon (caller)and why do you believe that?

1:32:29Pastor PWell, first of all, I accept the the Bible that Jesus used when he was on Earth,

1:32:35Pastor Pthe the Hebrew canon slash Septuagint,

1:32:38Pastor Pwhich was the Hebrew canon translated into Greek.

1:32:42Pastor PHe quoted both, so it seems.

1:32:45Pastor PAnd that was the those two were the foundation for the preaching of the apostle Paul and so forth. So that was accepted.

1:32:52Pastor PAnd the apocrypha was there, but it was not it had it did not have the same

1:32:59Pastor Pimportance

1:33:00Pastor Pand and

1:33:03Pastor Pbelief

1:33:05Pastor Pcredulity

1:33:06Pastor Pthat the

1:33:08Pastor Prest of the Old Testament had, the 39 books, what we call the Old Testament. And then I believe that God

1:33:15Pastor Pgave us the rest of the New Testament and can use the Council of Carthage and and that and use the church to confirm

1:33:23Pastor Phis word.

1:33:25Pastor PAnd so I have 66 books in in my bible, and that's that's the word of God as I understand it.

1:33:36Solomon (caller)Okay.

1:33:41Solomon (caller)Or do do you not see that you ended it with, I believe that that's the word of God, and that's what I understand?

1:33:48Solomon (caller)Because we're trying to we're trying to find the the objective,

1:33:52Solomon (caller)not the subjective.

1:33:53Solomon (caller)Right?

1:33:54Solomon (caller)So if Jay Dyer were to were to answer the question that I asked you,

1:33:58Solomon (caller)he will give you

1:34:03Solomon (caller)history. And

1:34:04Jay DyerYeah. There's an objective public historical witness.

1:34:07Jay DyerYeah. Objective historical public witness as to what can and I accept.

1:34:14Pastor PAnd as I and Solomon, as I told him, I've seen

1:34:18Pastor Pthrough history, I believe I've seen God bless

1:34:20Pastor Pthe

1:34:21Pastor Pthose those books that were passed down through the Texas Receptus from the church. I I totally acknowledge that.

1:34:30Pastor PThe Texas Receptus that that Erasmus put together, Martin Luther translated into German, published through the Gutenberg

1:34:38Pastor Pprinting press, then and then came to England. And in

1:34:46Pastor P1611,

1:34:47Pastor PKing James had it translated

1:34:50Pastor Pas an authorized. It had already been translated by Tyndale, but it was authorized and then allowed and and and legally

1:34:57Pastor Pto to be printed and distributed. And I believe God has God blessed England and God blessed The Americas with that book, with that bible.

1:35:07Solomon (caller)Okay. Again, you're saying I believe

1:35:10AndrewSir, Solomon, I'm sorry. I'm sorry to cut you off, but we do have other callers that are right behind you. I gave you kinda two questions.

1:35:17AndrewSo I I gotta kinda move on to the other callers, but I do appreciate the call in, sir.

1:35:21Solomon (caller)Okay. Thank you. Welcome.

1:35:26AndrewJesus Brea, can you hear me okay?

1:35:28Jesus Brea (caller)Yeah. Can you hear me?

1:35:30AndrewI can. Go ahead with your question, sir.

1:35:32Jesus Brea (caller)Thank you, Andre. I have a question for sorry.

1:35:35Jesus Brea (caller)Pastor Pete.

1:35:38Jesus Brea (caller)Yeah. Sorry about that. That was unintentional.

1:35:41Jesus Brea (caller)I wanted to ask,

1:35:44Jesus Brea (caller)I mean, up to the time of Carthage. Right?

1:35:49Jesus Brea (caller)You from the time of the apostles,

1:35:52Jesus Brea (caller)Peter died. Paul died.

1:35:55Jesus Brea (caller)We had Christians up to that time.

1:35:59Jesus Brea (caller)Then John died. Right? Right.

1:36:03Jesus Brea (caller)Up to the time of Carthage, what happened to all those Christians that didn't have a fixed

1:36:09Jesus Brea (caller)well,

1:36:11Jesus Brea (caller)according to your criteria, a fixed canned scripture.

1:36:14Jesus Brea (caller)What

1:36:16Jesus Brea (caller)what happened to them exactly?

1:36:17Jesus Brea (caller)What what was what was their their

1:36:20Jesus Brea (caller)basically

1:36:22Jesus Brea (caller)yeah. What what what was their their faith their fate? Sorry.

1:36:28Pastor PI believe it was in the the the the death of Christ.

1:36:32Pastor PThey believe the same gospel. There's only one gospel, and that is that Jesus died for our sins, and we repent of our sins and believe in him. And

1:36:40Pastor Pthe and and

1:36:42Pastor Pwhether they had the full canon or not,

1:36:45Pastor Phopefully, they were able to hear the word of God, the the the word of the gospel,

1:36:49Pastor Pwhich is the core

1:36:50Pastor Pteaching of the Bible.

1:36:52Pastor POkay.

1:36:53Jay DyerAnd Go

1:36:54Jay Dyerahead.

1:36:55Jesus Brea (caller)No. No. Sorry. Yeah.

1:36:57Jesus Brea (caller)My follow-up is,

1:37:00Jesus Brea (caller)well, many Christians up to that time and basically since the

1:37:05Jesus Brea (caller)first, second century believed in things like the Eucharist,

1:37:09Jesus Brea (caller)like the priesthood, like, you know, hierarchy.

1:37:14Jesus Brea (caller)Well, then teaching about the Eucharist was basically everywhere. Right? And you had many canons such as the you know, you had collections that are like the, I believe, the ureterium canon,

1:37:26Jesus Brea (caller)the the the codex, the batik canons, if I recall.

1:37:30Jesus Brea (caller)You had, I mean, you had a plethora

1:37:32Jesus Brea (caller)of different canons.

1:37:34Jesus Brea (caller)And,

1:37:35Jesus Brea (caller)you know, up to that point,

1:37:38Jesus Brea (caller)there was no,

1:37:41Jesus Brea (caller)basically, a fixed

1:37:43Jesus Brea (caller)cannon that could tell us which was right and which was wrong. So

1:37:48Jesus Brea (caller)what happened to them? I mean,

1:37:51Jesus Brea (caller)did did all those people that followed the wrong the wrong canon

1:37:55Jesus Brea (caller)fail somehow?

1:37:57Pastor PNo. Because

1:37:58Pastor Pthe the Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus,

1:38:02Pastor Pwhich are basically the same. They were influenced by Arminius

1:38:06Pastor Pand they

1:38:09Pastor Pit's still

1:38:11Pastor Poverwhelmingly

1:38:12Pastor Pthe same as a textual receptus. There there's not that much of a difference Yeah. That that the gospel would not be clear. The gospel was clear one way or the other.

1:38:21Jesus Brea (caller)Yeah. But you had churches like that that accepted, like,

1:38:25Jesus Brea (caller)the apocalypse of Peter or

1:38:28Jesus Brea (caller)the the letters of Saint Clement of Rome, for example.

1:38:32Jesus Brea (caller)I believe there was a

1:38:35Jesus Brea (caller)I I don't recall if there was a letter well, there there were various

1:38:40Jesus Brea (caller)books that many many churches

1:38:43Jesus Brea (caller)included

1:38:44Jesus Brea (caller)in their canons. So, I mean,

1:38:47Jesus Brea (caller)there was no

1:38:49Jesus Brea (caller)agreement general agreement on which books belonged there. And

1:38:55Jesus Brea (caller)up to the time of Marzian,

1:38:57Jesus Brea (caller)I mean, there there was not even a discussion about that. Right? So so

1:39:01Jesus Brea (caller)what happened there? I mean, was there, like, a gap between

1:39:05Jesus Brea (caller)that time and the time of conflict?

1:39:09Jesus Brea (caller)That's what I wanna know.

1:39:12Pastor PAgain, the

1:39:13Pastor PI believe the

1:39:15Pastor Pthe primary thing, you know, from from

1:39:20Pastor Pin answer to your question, the primary thing is the hearing of of the of the gospel. That's primary. As I said, you know, that that's the center of the word of God. And so

1:39:31Pastor Pit's not a it's there's no issue in hearing the gospel.

1:39:36Pastor PNo

1:39:37Pastor Pmatter which books are circling around, the gospel is still the same. It it doesn't change. The

1:39:43Pastor Pdeath of Christ for our sins, that doesn't change. I believe though that God needed to have a clarification of what exact books would be in the canon and that's what the Council of Carthage was for.

1:39:55Jay DyerSo I I I wanna add to add to that. I know there's quite a few people in the chat

1:40:00Jay Dyerwho

1:40:01Jay DyerI would like if they want to, I'd like them to call in because draconian

1:40:04Jay Dyermethods and Andy something,

1:40:07Jay Dyerlike, they seem to be really

1:40:08Jay Dyerinterested in

1:40:10Jay Dyerwhat I'm talking about.

1:40:12Jay DyerSo why don't they just call in? I'd be happy to address any of their questions if they wanna call in.

1:40:16AndrewYeah. So just, like, to kinda add on to that. Like,

1:40:19Andrewyou know, jump in the Discord. Call in. No one's gonna bite your head off hard.

1:40:25AndrewRight? Don't be a bunch of weenies about it. Just call in.

1:40:28AndrewHey, Seuss.

1:40:30AndrewI appreciate you very much your call. Have a great day.

1:40:34AndrewRambling man. Can you hear me okay?

1:40:37Rambling Man (caller)Yeah, I can hear you. Can you hear me?

1:40:39AndrewYeah, thanks so much for your patience. Go ahead with your question, sir.

1:40:42Rambling Man (caller)Thanks a lot. Yeah, Pastor P,

1:40:44Rambling Man (caller)I wanted to know, do you think

1:40:46Rambling Man (caller)the heretics of history

1:40:49Rambling Man (caller)truly believed their heresy?

1:40:52Pastor PWhy wouldn't they? I mean,

1:40:54Pastor Pare you saying that they were heretics so called? They really weren't heretics?

1:40:59Rambling Man (caller)Well, no. I I kinda wanna press you on this idea that merely stating

1:41:04Rambling Man (caller)that you really believe something

1:41:06Rambling Man (caller)is any kind of justification.

1:41:08Rambling Man (caller)Right? Indeed, the heretic can and has

1:41:12Rambling Man (caller)used your same

1:41:13Rambling Man (caller)argument as to why something is correct.

1:41:17Pastor PWell, sincerity doesn't necessarily validate what you believe. You know, you could believe that the earth is flat and

1:41:23Pastor Pjust because you're sincere about it doesn't make it flat, if that's what you mean.

1:41:28Rambling Man (caller)Yeah. So I I'm trying to see how you think

1:41:32Rambling Man (caller)heresy is rooted out on your system. Given that, a heretic can make your exact argument.

1:41:40Pastor PThat

1:41:41Pastor Pyou're you're saying that

1:41:43Pastor PI

1:41:44Pastor PI'm saying that I believe this, therefore, it must be true, and a heretic is on equal ground with me because he says he believes such and such.

1:41:52Lemon (caller)But I mean

1:41:52Significo (caller)but but you'll do

1:41:54Rambling Man (caller)the additional move where you'll say, but the way we adjudicate a dispute between me and the heretic

1:42:00Rambling Man (caller)is we go back to the word, and we just check the word and find out if it's consistent with the word. But indeed, the heretic can do the same thing and come to his heretic you know, heretical conclusion.

1:42:11Rambling Man (caller)So I'm trying to see how outside of just saying, well, we agree to disagree. Let's go start our own churches.

1:42:18Rambling Man (caller)How there's some dispute resolution in your system?

1:42:22Pastor PWell, I've been I've been a Baptist for many years.

1:42:26Pastor PAnd within our Baptist churches, we

1:42:30Pastor Pdo our best to keep the doctrine pure

1:42:33Pastor Pand to if if there is heresy, we try to root it out, call it out, root it out,

1:42:39Pastor Pand we don't we don't execute anybody.

1:42:42Pastor PWe do excommunicate

1:42:44Pastor Ppeople, obviously. And every church has that

1:42:47Pastor Pright, I believe, to do that.

1:42:50Rambling Man (caller)Right.

1:42:51Jay DyerYou're saying the Baptist church excommunicates people? I've never seen them back. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. When has this happened?

1:42:56Pastor POh, lots lots. Sure. We have people that are getting I mean,

1:42:59Jay DyerI I grew up my entire life in the Baptist church. I never saw anybody excommunicated.

1:43:03Pastor PNo. I've I've seen it.

1:43:05AndrewI I had a quick

1:43:06Pastor PPlenty of times.

1:43:07AndrewQuick question on this note, pastor p. If a person who's in a Baptist church does get excommunicated,

1:43:12Andrewwhat's stopping them from going the next town over to the other Baptist church and just going to that one?

1:43:17Pastor PWell, hopefully,

1:43:19Pastor Pthe next pastor will have some integrity,

1:43:21Pastor Pand he will say, where have you been? You know, what church have you been a member of? And they will say, you know, x y z Baptist Church or whatever. And they all he'll say, great. And then he'll call that pastor and say, I have one of your sheep over here and

1:43:37Pastor Pthey

1:43:38Pastor Pare

1:43:39Pastor Ppotentially,

1:43:40Pastor Pyou know, wanting to join and become a part of our fellowship. Can you tell me something about them? Is there anything that I need to know? Or or do I is there something I need to know? And at that point, the pastor can say, well, yes, they were either heretical or immoral or something,

1:43:55Pastor Pyou know, or no, they're great people and you should you should welcome them and tell them we we

1:44:02Pastor Pwe

1:44:03Pastor Pthey have our blessing.

1:44:04AndrewBut if the heretic if the person's a heretic and was excommunicated,

1:44:07Andrewlet's say, makes a great point here and says, why wouldn't he just lie?

1:44:12AndrewAnd say, maybe I've never been to a church ever.

1:44:15Pastor PThat's possible.

1:44:16Pastor PThat's always possible.

1:44:18Pastor PI mean, you know,

1:44:18Andrewwhat that there's a

1:44:20Pastor PWell, I mean,

1:44:21Andrewit's a good idea that, like, you have one body of a church so that you don't you don't maybe run into that as much.

1:44:27Pastor PWell,

1:44:29Pastor Ppower corrupts.

1:44:30Pastor PAbsolute power corrupts. Absolutely. I feel like churches have to be we look in a court of law, you know, you you raise your hand and you say, I solemnly swear to tell the truth the whole truth, nothing but the truth so help me God. And if you lie, you know,

1:44:46Pastor Pthat's

1:44:47Pastor Pbetween you and God.

1:44:48Pastor PAnd if a person goes to the next church and says, no, I haven't been a part of a church and they lie, that's between them and God. We can't there's not a whole lot we can do about it.

1:44:56AndrewOkay. Gotcha.

1:44:58AndrewThank you so much, Rambling Man, for the call in.

1:45:01AndrewHave a great night.

1:45:03AndrewCan you hear me okay?

1:45:05Sarah Mer (caller)No. I cannot. Give me one second here. How do you

1:45:11Sarah Mer (caller)give me one second. There we go. Check-in. Check-in. Test. Test. Test. Is that better?

1:45:15AndrewWe we can hear you fine. Can you can you hear us okay?

1:45:19Sarah Mer (caller)Hello, Andrew. Hello.

1:45:20Sarah Mer (caller)Hello, pastor.

1:45:21AndrewCan can you hear us, sir? Can you I can hear you. Okay. Great. Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead with your question.

1:45:28Sarah Mer (caller)Yeah. So I became a born again Christian simply through

1:45:32Sarah Mer (caller)exposing myself to the Bible, a plethora of Bibles,

1:45:35Sarah Mer (caller)because

1:45:36Sarah Mer (caller)I came to the Bible through

1:45:40Sarah Mer (caller)linguistic interests. I was interested in linguistic and the history of language and through studying the Bible I became a born again Christian. Now since then

1:45:50Sarah Mer (caller)I've been perusing the different denominations

1:45:52Sarah Mer (caller)and

1:45:54Sarah Mer (caller)the three

1:45:55Sarah Mer (caller)main contenders, obviously, Protestantism,

1:45:58Sarah Mer (caller)Catholicism, and Orthodoxy. And

1:46:00Sarah Mer (caller)at the end of the day, I'm I remain

1:46:04Sarah Mer (caller)reluctant

1:46:06Sarah Mer (caller)protestant. I'm Catholic friendly and I'm Orthodox curious.

1:46:11Sarah Mer (caller)So I have a question to mister Dyer,

1:46:14Sarah Mer (caller)if I may.

1:46:16Sarah Mer (caller)What happened to the people in Western Europe who for the last thousand years

1:46:21Sarah Mer (caller)lived and died outside of the Orthodox Church?

1:46:25Jay DyerRight. So I mean, I don't think we typically make judgments on individuals personal destinies because God doesn't

1:46:32Jay Dyergive us information about that. But if so, if God has a me

1:46:37Jay Dyera means by which he can join people to the mystical body

1:46:41Jay Dyeroutside of what he's told us, that's certainly within the power of God to do that. We see that with the thief on the cross, who, for example,

1:46:49Jay Dyerwould be with Christ that day in paradise and yet was not given the sacrament of baptism.

1:46:55Jay DyerSo it's certainly within the power of God to do these kinds of things. But what the destiny of people who,

1:47:01Jay Dyeryou know, died in those cases is, we don't know.

1:47:03Jay DyerWhat we do know is that it's our job to tell people to become orthodox. And I think when you look at texts like

1:47:09Jay Dyeracts eight, nine,

1:47:11Jay Dyerand then around 14 up through 18, you'll notice the pattern of the apostles

1:47:16Jay Dyeris to when they find people who are disciples that had not been taught about the spirit or were John's disciples and didn't have the full teaching or whoever,

1:47:26Jay Dyerthe the approach is to typically bring them under the episcopate. That's our that's our understanding of those texts. So

1:47:32Jay Dyerour view

1:47:33Sarah Mer (caller)Episcopate,

1:47:34Sarah Mer (caller)this is too big brain for me. I mean, you know, I thought my English was pretty good, and then I and then I come to a j y'all, then I realized I need another decade I need another decade to improve my English so I can even understand.

1:47:45Joel Olsteen (caller)That's a great

1:47:46Sarah Mer (caller)word. So hyperintellectual.

1:47:48Sarah Mer (caller)It's it's kind of pharise it's kind of phariseical. Saram.

1:47:51AndrewSaram. Hang on. Hang on. Saram. Saram. Saram. Let him finish, and then he can ask a follow-up.

1:47:56Jay DyerYeah. So that's a word that's used in acts one.

1:48:00Jay DyerRight? When Judas

1:48:02Jay Dyerdies, it says, let another take his episcopate. It just means the seat of a bishop. It just means this an overseer.

1:48:08Jay DyerRight? So,

1:48:10Jay Dyerit's not my fault that these are difficult questions. And so to call me a pharisee because I'm giving you, you know, sort of a historical analysis and a and a what I think is a fair answer. I don't think that's fair to call me a pharisee for answering your question.

1:48:23AndrewHey, Sarah. I I had a I had a quick question. I I'm just curious

1:48:27Andrewbecause I you know, I've wondered about this myself. But let me ask you the question back.

1:48:33AndrewWhat happened to all of the people who weren't Protestants? Did they go to hell?

1:48:36Sarah Mer (caller)Yeah. That's a good question, and I humbly,

1:48:38Sarah Mer (caller)you know, posit that I don't know. I don't

1:48:41Jay Dyerknow why I'm saying that. That's what I said.

1:48:42AndrewThat's what you call

1:48:43Proper Chadian (caller)me a pharisee.

1:48:45JY Lewis (caller)A shame.

1:48:45Sarah Mer (caller)Yeah. I'm saying when I listen to Jay Dyer, I can't help but think that this is kind of pharisaical,

1:48:50Sarah Mer (caller)isn't it? I mean K.

1:48:51Jay DyerBut I I explained how that same thing, though.

1:48:54Sarah Mer (caller)Yeah. That's I just said the same thing. That's right.

1:48:57Jay DyerOkay. So you're a hypocrite. That's a pharisee. So you're pharisee too because pharisees were hypocrites.

1:49:01Sarah Mer (caller)Maybe.

1:49:02Sarah Mer (caller)Maybe.

1:49:03Sarah Mer (caller)But I I'm not as learned I'm not as learned as as you, and, you know, I've been

1:49:07Jay Dyersubscribed So to is the

1:49:09Jay Dyerthat what made the pharisees pharisees being learned, or was it because they were being hypocrites?

1:49:13Sarah Mer (caller)I don't know. I honestly don't know. And it's overwhelming. Whole subject is overwhelming. So how can how can regular

1:49:21Sarah Mer (caller)It's not my fault. I didn't say it's your fault. But I'm saying, how how can how can can you see, now I'm not allowed to finish. Now I'm not allowed to finish my first time.

1:49:29AndrewAlright. Sarah, Sarah. Go ahead.

1:49:30Sarah Mer (caller)So when so when the regular Joe and Jane,

1:49:33Sarah Mer (caller)you know, if they if they hear the word of God and if faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God, and then they're exposed to this

1:49:40Sarah Mer (caller)practically

1:49:41Sarah Mer (caller)infinite plethora

1:49:43Sarah Mer (caller)of competing denominations,

1:49:45Sarah Mer (caller)how

1:49:46Sarah Mer (caller)it seems literally impossible to to get so it can't be this hard. It can't be this hard. So it's it's almost like you wound up back at sola scriptura in the end because as pastor p says, you peruse all of these denominations, and and if you scrutinize them

1:50:03Sarah Mer (caller)enough, then you find out that they're all they're all they're all rotten.

1:50:06Jay DyerI just saw resentment in your voice, the resentment,

1:50:09Jay Dyeras Nicaea said. So it's not my fault it's not my fault that these are difficult questions, and being

1:50:15Jay Dyerlearned doesn't make me a. So

1:50:17Sarah Mer (caller)Yeah. But I I I I'm talking about the average j, Joe and Jane. How are they supposed to make a decision?

1:50:23Jesus Brea (caller)To whom

1:50:23Jay Dyerto whom much is given, much is required.

1:50:26Sarah Mer (caller)Yeah. But not everyone is much given. Right?

1:50:29Jay DyerExactly. That's what that phrase means.

1:50:32Sarah Mer (caller)Okay. So so it's actually then it's an advantage to be simple and

1:50:35Proper Chadian (caller)to be and to be

1:50:36Andrewable I just wanna let you know this is your last follow-up.

1:50:38Jay DyerHe can count. We will be judged based on the light that we've been given, the degree of knowledge that we've been given. Jesus says the same things in Romans two. I

1:50:48Jay Dyermean, I whatever, dude.

1:50:49Sarah Mer (caller)Right. I mean, you have

1:50:50Jesus Brea (caller)a I don't know you. You have

1:50:52Sarah Mer (caller)a new safe if you kind of dim. Right?

1:50:54Pastor PYeah. Whatever.

1:50:54Sarah Mer (caller)Then you're safer. Alright. Alright. Alright. Whatever. Alright. Okay. So no answer. No answer. Okay.

1:51:00Jay DyerNo. I did have an answer.

1:51:01AndrewMean So I I do I do still kinda have to ask this real quick, though, before you go, because

1:51:07Andrewhe gave you essentially the same answer that you gave him, which is that we can't know. And you're like, well, we can't know either. I don't understand how that's not an answer or if he's a pharisee, how you're you wouldn't be a pharisee with the same answer. It's bizarre to me.

1:51:22Sarah Mer (caller)Yeah. Well, I'm I don't claim to know the I don't claim to have the answers as Jay Dyer does. Jay gives out this

1:51:28Pastor PSo you have a personal problem

1:51:30Jay Dyerwith me, and I haven't done anything to you.

1:51:32Sarah Mer (caller)No. I'm saying you're coming off you're coming off kind of parasitic.

1:51:34AndrewWhy are you a why are you a Protestant if you claim that you don't have the answers?

1:51:39Sarah Mer (caller)Yeah. Because I don't know.

1:51:41AndrewThis protest there's a claim of protestantism that they don't know.

1:51:43Jay DyerSo

1:51:44Jay Dyerdo you think that not knowing or claiming to not know makes you morally superior?

1:51:49Sarah Mer (caller)In in no way. In no way.

1:51:51Jay DyerWell, then why are you acting so morally superior?

1:51:53Sarah Mer (caller)Well, I'm not acting morally superior.

1:51:55Pastor PYeah. You

1:51:55Sarah Mer (caller)are. You're calling a No. No. I'm saying tonight. No. I'm I'm

1:51:58Jesus Brea (caller)now you're now you're

1:51:59Jay Dyerlying because you call me a pharisee.

1:52:00Sarah Mer (caller)No. I'm not lying.

1:52:02Jay DyerYou said you're morally superior

1:52:04Pastor Pbecause you don't know.

1:52:05Sarah Mer (caller)Said that you're a pharisee either.

1:52:06Jay DyerRight? Yes. You did. Now you're lying again because

1:52:08Sarah Mer (caller)you said I was a pharisee. What I No. I'm saying you're coming up.

1:52:10Jay DyerYou said I was a pharisee.

1:52:11Jesus Brea (caller)Now you're

1:52:12Pastor Psaying No.

1:52:12Sarah Mer (caller)Did not. No. I'm just a liar. You're a pharisee. I'm not I'm not right.

1:52:15AndrewAlright.

1:52:17AndrewSarah, I do appreciate the call in.

1:52:20AndrewI don't know. I've never been on the show before. No one

1:52:23Jay Dyerno one The irony is that that guy's approach is exactly the Talmudic approach of the pharisees in the New Testament, the way they treat Christ when they argue and try to trap Christ, and they try to be morally superior.

1:52:35Jay DyerSo the irony is that he's acting like he's morally superior because he's, quote, simple.

1:52:40AndrewPastor p, so let me let me ask you that question real quick before we get to the next caller because it seemed bizarre to me that a person would say,

1:52:48AndrewI'm a Protestant, not an Orthodox.

1:52:50AndrewMy issue with you is that you can't tell me what happened to people who were Protestants. But when that question's posed to him, he couldn't either.

1:52:57AndrewWhy is that not even ground? Why would it make one a pharisee or not the others? He

1:53:02Andrewseemed to think just the claim of knowledge. It's bizarre.

1:53:06Pastor PWell, I can't I can't read his mind, but I

1:53:11Pastor PI want to I wanna answer the question that he asked and then and then maybe comment on his attitude.

1:53:18Pastor PI I believe that, you know, the Bible says, you will seek me and find me if you search for me with all your heart. And

1:53:25Pastor PI believe that if a person wants to know God,

1:53:28Pastor Pthat if they reach out to God, sincerely, God will reach back to them and and will somehow get the gospel to them just like the Ethiopian eunuch in the out out in the desert. And God picked up Philip from preaching

1:53:43Pastor Pa revival, so to speak, and dropped him in the middle of the desert so that he could give the gospel and then took him back. So

1:53:50Pastor PGod will bend over backwards

1:53:52Pastor Pto make sure that a person gets the gospel.

1:53:55Pastor PAnd

1:53:56Pastor Pif a person wants to hear the gospel, God will make sure that they get it. So,

1:54:01Pastor Pyou know, that's my answer to that one. I I

1:54:05Pastor Pcan only say that

1:54:07Pastor Pour friend

1:54:09Pastor Pwas

1:54:10Pastor Pmaybe

1:54:12Pastor Pput off with some

1:54:14Pastor Psome,

1:54:15Pastor PI don't know, high mindedness that the Orthodox Church is the only church very exclusive.

1:54:22Pastor PSo it does sound that way to me, and and that bothers me.

1:54:25AndrewIs it is it

1:54:26Pastor Pam I missing a point? Am I missing that?

1:54:28AndrewYeah. I guess I guess maybe to boil it down, like, let me just ask really directly. Do you think that Orthodox

1:54:33Andrewpeople and Catholic people are going to hell?

1:54:36Pastor PNot necessarily.

1:54:38Pastor PNot necessarily.

1:54:39Pastor PMany of them have listened

1:54:41Pastor Pwell enough to understand that Jesus died for their sins, and they're sorry for their sins, and they they are they've come to an understanding of his sacrifice on the cross for us. Those people,

1:54:52Pastor PI believe many of them are saved. I can't you know, it was it was rare that I ran in all the, you know, many, many thousands of people that I've spoken with. It was rare that I ran across a Catholic that I would say, oh, I think they're saved because I believe salvation changes a life, and I didn't see a whole lot of changed lives there.

1:55:11Jay DyerI I would like to invite black flame Nova and k l who are sort of going nuts in the chat to just please call in. And you can say whatever you want and interact, but to accuse me of being a pharisee and then turn around and say, I'm not calling you a pharisee. I mean, just just make your point and, you know,

1:55:30Jay Dyerwhat does let me say this. Like,

1:55:32Jay Dyerif you think that I'm mean or or whatever you think I'm the worst person ever, none of that has anything to do with whether the positions are true or false.

1:55:40Jay DyerSo

1:55:41AndrewYeah. I mean, we've had way meaner people on the crucible than Jay Dyer's been today. Slow, don, can you hear us okay?

1:55:48Slobodan (caller)Yeah. I can hear you guys great. Can you hear me?

1:55:50AndrewWe can. Go ahead with your question, sir.

1:55:52Slobodan (caller)Awesome. So, my question is for pastor P.

1:55:57Slobodan (caller)I just wanted to ask you,

1:55:59Slobodan (caller)do you know that,

1:56:01Slobodan (caller)given the biblical text that,

1:56:04Slobodan (caller)people can come to any

1:56:06Slobodan (caller)any huge variety of interpretations

1:56:09Slobodan (caller)from that. And do you consider, like

1:56:12Slobodan (caller)do you consider that some interpretations

1:56:15Slobodan (caller)could be wrong or could be spiritually

1:56:18Slobodan (caller)I I don't mean wrong in in a factual sense, but wrong in a spiritual sense.

1:56:22Pastor PDo you do

1:56:23Slobodan (caller)you believe that people can have an interpretation that's wrong in that sense?

1:56:27Pastor PI'm I'm I'm sorry.

1:56:29Pastor PWhich are you talking about a specific passage that I referenced, or are you talking about just in the biblical teaching in general?

1:56:36Slobodan (caller)Just in general. Like,

1:56:38Slobodan (caller)for example, you have some Gnostic sects

1:56:40Slobodan (caller)that believe that Jesus is the same person as the serpent in the garden and that Jesus' role was to free us from the prison of Eden and that Jesus is actually a different entity from

1:56:52Slobodan (caller)God the father.

1:56:54Slobodan (caller)So do you do you see how somebody without any teaching or extrapolation or interpretation given to them,

1:57:02Slobodan (caller)from an authority,

1:57:03Slobodan (caller)how that can lead to a spiritually dangerous belief?

1:57:07Pastor PWell, you know, God gave the church, what we what we call fivefold

1:57:11Pastor Pexcuse me.

1:57:13Pastor PThe fivefold ministry,

1:57:15Pastor Papostles, prophets, evangelists, shepherds, and teachers, apostles,

1:57:19Pastor Pprophets, evangelists, shepherds, and teachers.

1:57:22Pastor PAnd it's our job,

1:57:24Pastor Pto make sure that they are taught clear

1:57:28Pastor Pand correct doctrine.

1:57:29Pastor PAnd, you know, somebody comes to the church, that I'm pastoring with with those kind of doctrines, I'm I'm gonna sit down and try to show them what, the Bible says about it.

1:57:41AndrewSir, how can

1:57:42Jay Dyeryou Slow Slovenon,

1:57:43AndrewI'm I'm really sorry. We have a bunch of callers stacked up behind you. We still have a couple more that we have to get to. I do appreciate your calling. Can you make this last question very concise?

1:57:52Slobodan (caller)Yeah. Sure.

1:57:54Slobodan (caller)So how do you how do you determine what is the correct inter how can how can you for example, let's use that example.

1:58:00Slobodan (caller)How can how do you tell that person that they're wrong? That if they believe that Jesus was a serpent in the garden and everything I just said,

1:58:07Slobodan (caller)how can you tell them that they're wrong?

1:58:08Pastor PWell, there there's no clear teaching that

1:58:12Pastor Pteaches that in the Bible that so, you know, they're gonna have a hard time having a a good proof text for that.

1:58:20AndrewOkay. Thank you. Thank you so much. Slow it on. I really appreciate the call in. I'm sorry that we have to move along quickly, but we wanna get to everybody.

1:58:28AndrewDJ, can you hear me okay?

1:58:30DJ BolgerYeah. I can. Can you guys hear me?

1:58:33AndrewYeah. Speak in speak into your mic.

1:58:35DJ BolgerOkay. Is it better?

1:58:37AndrewYeah. I'm getting a bit of an echo,

1:58:39Andrewbut I think it'll be okay. Go ahead with your question.

1:58:41DJ BolgerOkay. My question is for pastor P.

1:58:45DJ BolgerI wanna ask about the Jerusalem council in Acts chapter 15.

1:58:49DJ BolgerI'm wondering if you think the ruling of that council was infallible seeing how, you know, the council took place before it was ever written down in the scriptures.

1:58:58Pastor PWell, we get it back behind the scenes, look at that council in Galatians

1:59:02Pastor Pwhere the apostle Paul said he withstood Peter to the face

1:59:07Pastor Pfor associating

1:59:08Pastor Pwith the Judaizers

1:59:10Pastor Ptrying to to demand

1:59:12Pastor Pthat in order to become a Christian, you had to be circumcised.

1:59:16Pastor PAnd so the apostle Paul was able to get in there and sway

1:59:21Pastor Pthe council,

1:59:23Pastor Pand thank god he did.

1:59:27DJ BolgerRight. But but do you would you say that the ruling of that council was infallible?

1:59:33Pastor PWhat what ruling are you talking about specifically?

1:59:36DJ BolgerThat that you don't have to be circumcised to be saved.

1:59:40Pastor PAgain,

1:59:41Pastor PI believe the apostle the god that god used

1:59:45Pastor Pthe apostle Paul to sway them and that we don't and then thank god we don't have to be circumcised, which which is just another way of saying we don't have to be Jewish. That's really all that means is we don't have to be you don't have to be Jewish to be saved. You could be a Gentile and be saved. And I'm a Gentile, so

2:00:03Pastor PI'm able to be saved.

2:00:06DJ BolgerRight. So so if that ruling was infallible, why why would you say that the rulings of the other ecumenical councils like Nicaea and Constantinople one and all those weren't infallible?

2:00:17Pastor PWell, we we again, we

2:00:19Pastor Ppeople are are are are prone to error, And

2:00:23Pastor PI can't accept every time that people

2:00:27Pastor Pget together that they're gonna come out with the right answer.

2:00:32AndrewDJ, I appreciate your call in, and I hope you got the answers that you were after. Thank you so much for that call in. Appreciate it very much. Still have a few callers left. Thank you, both debaters, for hanging out for the calls. A lot of people really wanted to talk to both of you.

2:00:48AndrewRachel, go ahead.

2:00:50Rachel (caller)Hi. Can you guys hear me fine?

2:00:52AndrewYeah.

2:00:53Rachel (caller)Hi, pastor p. I think that everyone in the chat really agrees that, you know, we find you to be a really sincere guy, and it's very clear that you love Christ. So we all appreciate that. I just have one question.

2:01:08Rachel (caller)We didn't have a bible

2:01:10Rachel (caller)for the first few centuries of Christianity.

2:01:14Rachel (caller)There you know, people didn't have a bible in their house. There was no printing press. There was no canon yet.

2:01:19Rachel (caller)We just had various scriptures in various churches, but they hadn't been compiled into a bible.

2:01:25Rachel (caller)Yet those centuries produced some of the greatest martyrs in all of Christian history. How did those people know

2:01:32Rachel (caller)what Christianity was if it's bible alone?

2:01:37Pastor PWell, the the word of the of the gospel is the core. And I I think I started out by saying that a couple hours ago,

2:01:44Pastor Pthat the word of the gospel is the core

2:01:47Pastor Pof the bible. And if

2:01:49Pastor Pif

2:01:50Pastor Pif a person heard

2:01:52Pastor Pthe

2:01:53Pastor Pthe core of the bible would being the gospel that Christ died for our sins, pay the price, and and they receive that, that's the primary thing. And, you you know, the the the martyrs, that was what they were dying for. They were dying for for the for the gospel,

2:02:07Pastor Pfor Christ,

2:02:08Pastor Pfor their belief in him. They weren't dying for every little little doctrinal

2:02:13Pastor Pbelief.

2:02:15Pastor PThey were dying for that one thing.

2:02:16Rachel (caller)Right. But how did they know that if they didn't have a bible? Right? It had to be a priest who told them they had to hear it in a church. Right?

2:02:25Pastor PMaybe.

2:02:26Pastor PThey might have heard it from an evangelist. They

2:02:29Rachel (caller)have a bible they could just read. Right? So how would they know the unless it was through oral teaching at that point?

2:02:35Pastor PHow shall we hear without a teacher? Yes. Of course. It it it's it's through the church that God has has given

2:02:42Pastor Pthe

2:02:44Pastor Pand primarily.

2:02:45Pastor PI mean, sometimes it's not always a church. Sometimes it's

2:02:49Pastor Pit's

2:02:50Pastor Pa bible in a in a Gideon bible in a motel drawer.

2:02:53Rachel (caller)So I

2:02:55Andrewunderstand. You have to make this last one really concise right now.

2:02:57Rachel (caller)I will. I just have one point. So we can't

2:03:01Rachel (caller)we all agree in the primacy of scripture, but we cannot say scripture alone based on what you just said.

2:03:09Rachel (caller)It can't possibly be scripture alone if for the first three centuries we didn't have scripture

2:03:15Rachel (caller)that we could read. So

2:03:17Sarah Mer (caller)that's all

2:03:18Lemon (caller)I wanted to say.

2:03:18Solomon (caller)Okay.

2:03:21AndrewDid you wanna respond to that, pastor?

2:03:23Pastor PYes. That that there were texts that were passed all around.

2:03:27Pastor PThey were and and, again, that's part of the problem was that there were lots of texts being passed around.

2:03:32Pastor PThey

2:03:33Pastor Pfor the most part, they they were teaching that Christ was the the Jewish Messiah who came to die for sins. And,

2:03:41Pastor Pyou know,

2:03:42Pastor Pif a if a if a person only had a couple of manuscripts

2:03:46Pastor Pthat were from the New Testament, then that was probably

2:03:50Pastor Penough to give them the truth of the gospel.

2:03:53Jay DyerWell, I'd I'd like to comment on this as well because

2:03:57Jay Dyerif we go to Saint Irenaeus, who was famous bishop in

2:04:02Jay Dyerone eighty AD, and he has a book called Against Heresies.

2:04:06Jay DyerAnd if you read books three and four of Against Against Heresies,

2:04:10Jay Dyerhe actually helps us answer this question. So particularly book three, he talks about

2:04:15Jay Dyerat the very beginning, the the first two chapters, he explains for the second century church what was normative, at least as far as he understood throughout the Roman Empire.

2:04:24Jay DyerThe way that the true church was known was the tradition of the church.

2:04:29Jay DyerAnd this tradition, he he identifies

2:04:31Jay Dyeras apostolic succession.

2:04:33Jay DyerHe says that this tradition that the church holds is not an a secret oral teaching like the Gnostics had, but it is in fact the entire apostolic deposit,

2:04:42Jay Dyerboth written and oral tradition,

2:04:44Jay Dyerwhich is had in the churches that possess the apostolic succession.

2:04:48Jay DyerSo the very time period that we're referring to where there's not yet a canon of scripture, Saint Orinius gives us multiple texts and passages at length describing the way that Christians knew the gospel and they knew the faith, and it's precisely the means that I described,

2:05:02Jay Dyerin the orthodox position.

2:05:08AndrewAppreciate that very much. Jay, we're gonna move on to the next caller.

2:05:11AndrewGotta kick a couple of these out of studio. I think they just didn't disconnect correctly.

2:05:17AndrewProper Chalcedon or proper Chattyan. Sorry. Can you hear us okay?

2:05:22AndrewYeah. I can hear you. Go ahead with your question, sir.

2:05:25Proper Chadian (caller)Oh, it's today in, but,

2:05:28Proper Chadian (caller)Yep.

2:05:29AndrewThat's that's just for correcting me on my own show. You know? Like, don't I'm I'm kidding. I'm kidding. Go ahead, man. Go ahead.

2:05:37Proper Chadian (caller)Chats are always getting discriminated against, so I

2:05:39Andrewwould have been

2:05:39Proper Chadian (caller)surprised if you booted me for that. But, yeah, pastor p, I appreciate you staying up late and talking with us here. I know it's probably getting a little long in the tooth going to the whatever hour it is, but I had a question if are you familiar at all with Nestorianism,

2:05:53Proper Chadian (caller)the heresy that plagued the early church?

2:05:56Pastor PNot a lot.

2:05:57Proper Chadian (caller)Okay.

2:05:58Proper Chadian (caller)So if if I told you that your explanation of the trinity is Nestorian,

2:06:04Proper Chadian (caller)would that be something that would maybe be alarming or something that could possibly, if that was true, lead you to believe that, you know, the Baptist church has been spreading heresy?

2:06:15Pastor PWell, I I

2:06:17Pastor Pfor me,

2:06:19Pastor PI square everything with the word of God. So if if, you know, I I I don't know I don't know enough about Nestorianism.

2:06:25Pastor PI'm assuming that it's somehow

2:06:27Pastor Pdividing the nature of Christ

2:06:31Pastor Pbetween his godhood and manhood and allowing one to become more

2:06:36Pastor Pimportant than the other. Yes?

2:06:39Proper Chadian (caller)Well, so, I mean, there's a lot that goes into it. I would just recommend maybe looking into some of the early church fathers that, you know, maybe even were directly discussing

2:06:49Proper Chadian (caller)this exact issue

2:06:51Proper Chadian (caller)because,

2:06:52Proper Chadian (caller)you know, I think the the demons only have so many tricks up their sleeve, and a lot of the heresies just get recycled and come back with, you know, a different paint job. And I know you're very devout and, you know, serious about your faith, and I I think we can all respect that. You know, I don't think you need a really in-depth,

2:07:09Proper Chadian (caller)you know, theological understanding. I mean, you can be a simple person like the the blind man that said, you know, who is the savior that I can believe and be saved. But,

2:07:17Proper Chadian (caller)we need to be careful if we're actually spreading something that has

2:07:21Proper Chadian (caller)both this deep logical

2:07:23Proper Chadian (caller)truth rooted in it that can be traced back to the apostles.

2:07:27Proper Chadian (caller)And, also, you know, it's one thing to understand that deeply. It's another to, you know, have the belief in the church that Jesus established

2:07:36Proper Chadian (caller)and, you know, obviously

2:07:37Proper Chadian (caller)do your due diligence. But, you know, I think you said earlier that you believe

2:07:42Proper Chadian (caller)that in subjectivity that there is I mean, you would probably say there's absolute truth,

2:07:48Proper Chadian (caller)but,

2:07:49Proper Chadian (caller)I mean, we all believe there is, but I would just encourage you to maybe look into, you know, the Nestorian

2:07:55Proper Chadian (caller)controversy to to see exactly what,

2:07:58Proper Chadian (caller)you know, the dividing of of the personhood into Jesus into both a divine person and a human person,

2:08:04Proper Chadian (caller)and the human person gets damned.

2:08:07Proper Chadian (caller)Like, the problems because they weren't just a bunch of guys sitting in an ivory tower. Like, these things had real world

2:08:12Proper Chadian (caller)ramifications

2:08:14Proper Chadian (caller)that, you know, when permeated, you see the madness that is America with 30,000 denominations. You know, Baptist Church a with pastor Billy Bob believes this. Pat to search b

2:08:26Proper Chadian (caller)with, you know, master p believes this, and I'm right. He's right. So my my follow-up question, and and I'll be sorry, Andrew, but so where what is the metric within the Baptist church to correct the original sin of pride? Because I don't see anything, And every one of your responses is I believe x. And that's all well and good, but what if what you believe is wrong? Like, where where is the correcting factor that the historical church in historicity and the objective truth can provide an orthodox Christian for looking in the mirror and realizing, man, I'm wrong.

2:09:00Proper Chadian (caller)Whereas, you know, every Baptist can just start their own Baptist church b, then I disagree with you on this, then we start Baptist church c. And, you know, it's just endless splitting of the body of Christ, which, again, goes back to Nestorianism that now we have multiple bodies of Christ. So sorry.

2:09:16Proper Chadian (caller)Yeah. I'll let you respond to that.

2:09:17Pastor PWell, Baptist Church is, as I think I mentioned before, we are all about bible studies and small groups and

2:09:26Pastor Pgetting together

2:09:27Pastor Pconstantly

2:09:28Pastor Pwhere, you know, we we a typical

2:09:33Pastor Pfaithful baptist is in church five times a week.

2:09:36Pastor PAnd so we rub shoulders. We talk. And if we're if there's heresy, it won't take long. It it won't take more than a in fact, people who have heresies typically

2:09:46Pastor Pcan't wait to tell everybody. So,

2:09:48Pastor Pyou know, you go to a bible study and a person starts saying that they don't believe that Jesus is God or whatever,

2:09:55Pastor Pthen that's gonna get called out. And it's gonna be you know, somebody's gonna deal with it.

2:10:01AndrewBy the way, caller, I appreciate so much your call in if you can still hear us, proper

2:10:06Andrewchatty in, right, or today in, however you pronounce it. Don't correct me. Lemon,

2:10:12Andrewyou are up.

2:10:14AndrewGo ahead with your question. You've been waiting very, very, very patiently.

2:10:18AndrewGo ahead.

2:10:20Lemon (caller)Okay. So I have a so, Jay, I just wanna wish you a blessed fast.

2:10:24Lemon (caller)My question actually is for pastor p.

2:10:27Lemon (caller)Where was Jesus when he was three days in the tomb? Where was he?

2:10:31Pastor PI believe he went down to Hades and proclaimed,

2:10:36Pastor Pliberty to the captives and and,

2:10:39Pastor Pled captivity captive.

2:10:42Lemon (caller)Where And is this inscription?

2:10:45Pastor PIn Ephesians.

2:10:47Pastor PAnd then he I I believe it. I'm not typically,

2:10:52Pastor Pwe Baptist, we don't know for sure whether he waited to go back to his father

2:10:58Pastor Puntil after the resurrection or before.

2:11:02Pastor PBut yet, you know, because

2:11:06Pastor Pone of the Mary's grabbed him and he says, don't hold me. I have not yet ascended to my father, your father, my God, and your God. So

2:11:13Pastor Pat some point, he did go back to the father and

2:11:16Pastor Phe and at some point, he did go down to Hades. We, you know, we say the apostles creed from the council of Nicaea.

2:11:25Pastor PTypically, Baptist don't recite the part that says he descended into hell. And I I was reared in a reformed church. We didn't say it either, but,

2:11:34Pastor Pyou know, a lot of people a lot of Baptist believe that he did and it's it's about a fifty fifty split amongst Baptists. I can't speak for the reformed. I left the reformed church

2:11:45Pastor Plong ago, so I can't speak for them. But lots of Baptists believe that that that's what happened.

2:11:49AndrewLast follow-up, Lemon. Go ahead.

2:11:52Lemon (caller)The issue that and the I would argue that the issue that the reason why it's a fifty fifty split is because they don't hold the

2:11:58Lemon (caller)is because they don't hold the creed as authoritative,

2:12:01Lemon (caller)and that's a problem.

2:12:03Lemon (caller)Because without some form of holy tradition,

2:12:06Lemon (caller)your your system just falls apart. I was a protestant for fourteen years.

2:12:11Lemon (caller)It just doesn't make sense.

2:12:13Lemon (caller)Andrew, I just wanna thank you, and everyone, have a nice night. Thank you.

2:12:17AndrewYeah. Thank you for the call in Lemon. We appreciate it very much. Did you wanna speak to what he said there, pastor Pete?

2:12:22Pastor PI

2:12:23Pastor Pcan't I I I

2:12:25Pastor Pcan't disagree that

2:12:28Pastor Pthere there are

2:12:29Pastor Pchurches don't always make the word of God clear

2:12:33Pastor Pand some churches

2:12:34Pastor Pveer off and

2:12:36Pastor Ptalk about social issues rather than the

2:12:40Pastor Ptruth of the gospel and what Jesus came to do and lose they lose focus. I can't disagree with that.

2:12:47AndrewI appreciate that.

2:12:49AndrewSo I I'm gonna move into the super chat section, guys. Thank you so much for being troopers and hanging in there. We have a lot of people who have a lot of questions still.

2:12:59AndrewIt doesn't surprise me a bit with

2:13:02Andrewwith kind of the way that this debate has gone.

2:13:04AndrewFirst and foremost,

2:13:07Andrewwe're gonna start with dono chat.

2:13:11AndrewConsent ethics.

2:13:12AndrewSorry,

2:13:14Andrewguys. I'm just finding my place to make sure I don't lose it.

2:13:18AndrewOkay. This $4 from Terry set I'm sorry. Go ahead, Jay.

2:13:22Jay DyerI was gonna say,

2:13:23Jay DyerI may have to, head out pretty soon, but, I wanna say that I, I thank you for doing it, pastor p, and, you're a very

2:13:30Jay Dyergenuine

2:13:31Jay Dyerman. And we got heated, but I appreciate the good spirited approach towards the end here that, you know, we can be friendly and on good terms. And, you know, I apologize if I got too heated for you, but it was a good good good discussion.

2:13:45AndrewWell, if you, if you do need to head out, I understand, Jay, we're gonna fly through these super chats really quick. If you can give it just a few more minutes if you don't mind.

2:13:52Jay DyerI can hang out a few more minutes.

2:13:53AndrewOkay. And by the way, Jay Dyer, you can find him. We'll have his channel description up. Terrible at Resident Evil. But other than that, he's pretty much a good guy. Pretty much

2:14:02Jay Dyera the first one, man. I never played it.

2:14:05Jay DyerThat one was hard.

2:14:06AndrewFor $4 from Terry, he says, pastor p,

2:14:10Andrewyou remind me of my grandpa. You rely heavily on social relativity, your truth, or stories instead of objective truths,

2:14:18Andrewtypical boomer thought process,

2:14:20Andrewbut god bless you, pastor p. So he was kind of wrapping up the insults with a little bit of you're also okay. Right?

2:14:28AndrewSo

2:14:29Andrew$10

2:14:30Andrewfrom Black Ortho acolyte. He says, pastor p, do you believe the council of Jerusalem was infallible

2:14:37Andrewand guided by the holy spirit?

2:14:40AndrewCould early Christians reject that council and still call themselves Christians?

2:14:45Pastor PI do believe it was infallible and I do believe that that God

2:14:49Pastor Pled them to to make Christianity

2:14:54Pastor Psomething

2:14:55Pastor Pthat did not demand

2:14:57Pastor Pcircumcision

2:14:58Pastor Pand

2:14:59Pastor Pand the

2:15:00Pastor PJudaizers were wrong.

2:15:02Pastor PAnd the apostle Paul at that from that time on, the apostle Paul took the ascendancy

2:15:08Pastor Pin leadership,

2:15:09Pastor Pand I believe that was also something that was important in in the early church.

2:15:14Andrew$10 from j '40. He said, would either of the debaters like to offer a quick word on kenism?

2:15:20AndrewWhat the hell is kenism?

2:15:23AndrewAnybody know what kinism is? I don't know

2:15:25Jay Dyerwhat variant

2:15:26Jay Dyerwithin the students of Rush Uni. So, yeah, so, basically, it's like Rush

2:15:31Jay DyerUni's

2:15:32Jay Dyerphilosophy, theology with a kind of

2:15:37Jay Dyersort of racial approach,

2:15:39Jay Dyerbasically.

2:15:40AndrewOf course. Of course. $3 from the Palantir.

2:15:44AndrewGreat name. Right? Or

2:15:46AndrewPalantir.

2:15:48AndrewThere we go. Lord of Rings reference. Pastor p, if you don't mind sharing, which denomination of Protestantism do you follow?

2:15:55AndrewWhy is this one right as opposed to others? Thank you. And I believe you said you were a Christian reformed or Baptist. Right?

2:16:03Pastor PWell, I I was I was reared in a reformed church.

2:16:07Pastor PIt was called presbyterian, but, you know, they they followed the reformed

2:16:11Pastor Pdoctrines and

2:16:13Pastor Pbecame a fundamentalist

2:16:15Pastor Pindependent Baptist for many many years.

2:16:18Pastor PAnd

2:16:20Pastor Pwhen I came back to Atlanta from New York City,

2:16:23Pastor PI decided to become a Southern Baptist.

2:16:26Pastor PAnd, of course, Southern Baptist have had their their battles.

2:16:30Pastor PSo, you know, I I am

2:16:34Pastor PI'm I'm a Southern Baptist now

2:16:36Pastor Pand I'm not a pastor. I spend most of my time researching and writing,

2:16:41Pastor Pso I'm not involved in active ministry at the moment. Yeah.

2:16:46AndrewOkay. Appreciate that. $10 from No Limit Soldier.

2:16:49AndrewHe says, pastor p's lack of argumentation

2:16:52Andrewmakes Jay say,

2:16:54Andrewnah nah nah nah nah. He made he made sure that he wanted to put the hyphen on that. So,

2:16:59Andrewyou know, I that guy had to do it. Okay? Scott Morrissey for $4 says, first century Christians were saved through the preaching of the word of God by the Orthodox Church.

2:17:11AndrewOr I'm sorry, not by the Orthodox Church, but by reading the Bible, a lot never read the Bible.