Jay Dyer vs Mike Lowry Urantia Debate: Christianity vs Urantianism

0:00MnestheusJay, welcome. Jay Dyer, welcome to the show.

0:02Jay DyerChampion of Wine.

0:03MnestheusGood to have you here.

0:04MnestheusThank you for coming on board. It's good to see you again. Yeah.

0:08Jay DyerI'm sorry I'm a little late. I was thinking it's, thirty 07:30,

0:11Jay Dyerbut I then I remembered it was it was seven my time. So, anyway, I'm here.

0:15MnestheusAll good. Thanks for being as early as you are. We, we were ready to, riff and preamble as long as it took. Even if it took three or four days, we were just gonna camp out and keep going until you, showed up. So I'm glad it was only nine minutes. It's good to have you and, we were just sort of, beginning to set the frame here and I'll I'll do my best in introducing you,

0:37Mnestheusto our audience and to Mike. I'm sure most everyone who's watching us, is aware of you, Jay. Jay is a,

0:43Mnestheusa very

0:45Mnestheuspassionate advocate for the truth of Jesus Christ. He has arrived,

0:49Mnestheusafter a, I I think, a long and rigorous journey of seeking

0:54Mnestheusthe truth. He's arrived at Eastern Orthodoxy

0:57Mnestheusand, is a is a wonderful advocate

0:59Mnestheusfor Eastern,

1:01Mnestheushistory and for the, you know, understanding of of where that, church has come from across

1:07Mnestheushistory. So I've learned a lot from listening to Jay on that topic. Jay's also

1:12Mnestheusa

1:13Mnestheusdreadful gadfly to the to the elite cabal who rule over us. He's exposing a lot of their secrets. He's, he's doing it on big platforms. He's been a guest, host on Infowars. He's a very, very talented

1:27Mnestheusand very,

1:29Mnestheusup and coming,

1:30MnestheusI think, thought leader. So it's great to have you again, Jay. And what

1:34Mnestheuswe'd like to do today is,

1:36Mnestheusfirstly introduce you to Mike who's my compatriot of the last three months with our new podcast Champions of the Light.

1:43MnestheusAnd, you guys will get to know each other. Mike is coming at Christianity from a very different perspective that you may or may not have heard of,

1:50Mnestheuswhich is based on the Urantia book.

1:53MnestheusMike will tell you more about that as we go, but the Urantia papers are,

1:59Mnestheusclaimed to be a new revelation, a twentieth century revelation,

2:03Mnestheusthat that shared new light,

2:05Mnestheusfrom an angelic perspective on the total history of man as well as

2:10Mnestheusthe time that Jesus spent on earth with the apostles and what his teachings actually meant.

2:15MnestheusAnd it it brings a lot of challenge

2:18Mnestheusto church tradition,

2:20Mnestheusand and

2:21Mnestheusyou're all about correct church tradition with Eastern Orthodoxy. So I'm really looking forward to hearing these two perspectives,

2:28Mnestheusunraveled as you as we probe into it together, and I'll I'll hand it over to Mike to, introduce himself and

2:35Mnestheushit you with a question, and we'll begin.

2:38Mike LowryThat was a perfect intro, James. Way to go. Welcome,

2:42Mike LowryJay.

2:44Mike LowryMike here.

2:45Mike LowryI know of you a little

2:48Mike Lowryand not a lot.

2:50Mike LowryI saw you first.

2:52Mike LowryMaybe I've seen your face here and there, and I've heard of who you are, but I saw you do a debate with Tom Jump

2:58Mike Lowryon the kill stream,

3:00Mike Lowryand that was an interesting call it

3:02Jay Dyera debate, but if you wanna call it a yeah.

3:04Mike LowryYeah. It was set up as a debate.

3:06MnestheusSome kind of punch off.

3:08Mike LowryYeah. I saw a

3:10Mike Lowrybit of a

3:11Mike Lowrydog fight there or cat fight, I'm not sure.

3:14Mike LowryBut

3:15Mike Lowrythen I saw

3:18Mike Lowrysome with Stefan Molinou.

3:21Mike LowryThat was also interesting.

3:23Jay DyerThat was a much better discussion for sure.

3:25MnestheusThat you know, I I

3:27Mnestheusmy first my

3:28Mnestheusfirst encounter with your work, Jay, was seeing your debate with the Kurgan. And as I said to you in our interview, that was like the worst way to to be introduced to you, think.

3:36Jay DyerYeah. It was

3:40Jay Dyerdefinitely the worst of all. So

3:42MnestheusYeah. Not not not a not the the most, elucidating

3:46Mnestheusdebates, but, entertaining for sure.

3:49MnestheusAnd, and then I saw you not long after that on the one

3:52Mnestheustoo where, you know, you, I think you really you really took him to task. He couldn't he couldn't cope well with you.

4:01Jay DyerYeah. Thank you. I I

4:04Jay Dyerwe've had a good history of of solid debates. I think the the Malpass debate, the Matt Dillon debate,

4:11Jay Dyerthe Stefan debate, the j f debate,

4:14Jay Dyerthose are all, you know, pretty solid. It's called the Shabir doctor Shabir Lee debate. So those are usually the good ones when it's, you know, people that have some some

4:22Jay Dyersome study behind them.

4:24Jay DyerYou know, Kier Kieran Kieran and t jump, you know, they just I don't really think they knew what they're doing.

4:31Jay DyerBut, most of the the debates with people with PhDs have been pretty good. There's also, doctor Feinberg. We had a good debate couple years ago. So those are the quality debates.

4:41MnestheusWell, yeah. I've seen a couple of those. The, the Matt Dilla Hunty one I found, fascinating,

4:47Mnestheusand, and it was a really, that was a new exposure for me to

4:51Mnestheusthe, the kind of presuppositional

4:53Mnestheusapologetics

4:54Mnestheusthat you,

4:56Mnestheuswork with in your debating style. And you can see how it's a

5:00Mnestheusit's one of those great divides that, you know, when when people sort of arrive at it and look across it at each other, it's,

5:07Mnestheusit's very hard

5:08Mnestheusto get across it without really abandoning your entire position,

5:13Mnestheusone way or the other. It's that great divide. So you bring people there quickly, I think, with that

5:18Mnestheusstyle of debate,

5:20Mnestheusand then circle around it a lot and you get to examine it. So I I really appreciate that, level of I

5:26Jay Dyerthink on a practical level, the transcendental argument is probably the best. It's the most

5:31Jay Dyerforceful if people get it. I think the biggest challenge is really conveying the argument because a lot of times people

5:37Jay Dyerdon't get it right away. It's kind of like a not a

5:41Jay Dyeran immediate click. But when it does click,

5:44Jay DyerI think most people kinda, you know, see the force of it, and they they find it to be pretty convincing. But I have to confess, I don't know a whole lot about your interest. So I'm welcome I I'm glad to present,

5:56Jay Dyeryou know, my thoughts.

5:58Jay DyerI'm not gonna be mean. I promise to be very nice and cordial.

6:01Jay DyerSo

6:02Jay DyerI I but I welcome you to explain it to me and and tell me, you know, why you think it's convincing and what the arguments are and this kind of stuff. So proceed however you will. Whatever you want.

6:13MnestheusThis is great.

6:15Mike LowryEpic. Okay. Cool.

6:17Mike LowryWell,

6:19Mike Lowryyeah. Why don't I start actually then? I I have a lot of questions for you, but if if you want, I'll go first and wait in, and we'll get to know each other and talk about Urantia.

6:28Jay DyerRight.

6:29Mike LowrySo

6:30Mike Lowryso why do I find it convincing?

6:33Mike LowryI'll answer that one first.

6:37Mike LowryIt has to do with my own personal experience in my life, and with seeking after God and understanding what life is ultimately for,

6:45Mike Lowrylike what we're doing here.

6:47Mike LowryAnd that's been my

6:50Mike Lowrypurpose for my life ever since I became a young adult. I started asking that question, and it began to mean a lot to me.

6:58Mike LowryAnd I went through

7:01Mike Lowrymy own personal journey and and looking

7:04Mike Lowryfor meaning,

7:06Mike Lowryand understanding the patterns, the the symbols, and the the

7:13Mike Lowryconspiracies,

7:13Mike Lowryand all the rest.

7:15Mike LowryUnderstanding what's going on on the planet, what's the history all about, who am I, what are we doing here, these are things that have plagued me as a contemplative type of person. And

7:25Mike LowryI

7:26Mike LowryI found my way out of Christianity that I was raised in, into

7:30Mike Lowryatheistic nihilism in my twenties.

7:34Mike LowryI found my way into

7:36Mike Lowrysmoking weed and psychedelics and exploring all sorts of eastern philosophies.

7:43Mike LowryI

7:44Mike Lowryfound myself discovering a dark satanic cabal running the world

7:49Mike Lowrythat

7:50Mike Lowryblew my mind as an atheist, because I started to see that there was absolutely some sort of spiritual influence behind all of that. And I thought, alright, well, if there's no God, then what's up with this spiritual side of reality? And I also saw it in psychedelic experiences

8:06Mike LowryI had that left me

8:08Mike Lowryshaken and

8:10Mike Lowryquestioning things on a whole other level. So there I found myself, like, looking.

8:14Mike LowryWhat is all of this about?

8:19Mike LowrySkipping forward to just

8:21Mike Lowrya few years back, I found myself at one of the lowest parts of my life, just due to certain personal circumstances,

8:27Mike Lowryand I

8:28Mike Lowryactually, one day,

8:30Mike Lowryat a at a particularly poignant moment, I found myself looking into the sky and cursing God, and saying, basically, fuck you.

8:38Mike LowryIf you're out there, I hate you.

8:41Mike LowryAnd

8:42Mike LowryI wish you never made me, and if you did, it was a mistake, and you suck. Like, my attitude was just pure rage toward God, if he's even out there, because I couldn't find him.

8:53Mike LowryBut it was at that moment that God

8:56Mike Lowrystarted speaking to me. And

8:58Mike Lowryand looking back now, I realized that's the first moment I was really starting to speak to him, even though it was so irreverent.

9:04Mike LowryAnd but it was

9:06Mike Lowrywas sincere. And I had finally, sincerely

9:09Mike Lowryturned toward him.

9:11Mike LowryAnd he started ministering to me in a way of leading me

9:16Mike Lowryday by day to see him at work, and understand his nature and his character,

9:22Mike Lowrywhich is

9:23Mike Lowryso patient and compassionate,

9:26Mike Lowryand he even allows us to go through suffering and adversity

9:29Mike Lowryas a way of growing us up in any way.

9:32Mike LowryI started to see my life in a different frame after that.

9:37Mike LowrySo for the last several years, I've been on on this path of finding him personally,

9:41Mike Lowryrevealing himself to me just

9:43Mike Lowryinwardly,

9:44Mike Lowryunderstanding

9:45Mike Lowryhis

9:46Mike Lowrynature through

9:47Mike Lowryjust essentially like personal spiritual communion with him. As I've

9:52Mike Lowrycleaned up my life, I got my life way back on track,

9:56Mike Lowrystarted living right and doing right,

9:59Mike Lowryand wanting what was right.

10:01Mike LowryAnd then

10:02Mike Lowrysomewhere down that road,

10:04Mike LowryI rediscovered something that I had found during my weird psychedelic exploration years, which was the URANTIA book. And I had read it back then, and I didn't comprehend it at all. I just had read it out of curiosity.

10:16Mike LowryBut this time I revisited it,

10:19Mike Lowryand I found it was speaking to me on another level, where I was seeing what it was actually saying,

10:26Mike Lowryand

10:27Mike Lowrythat I had missed the first time through.

10:30Mike LowrySo now, when I'm reading the book,

10:33Mike Lowryand studying it, I've just come to see

10:36Mike Lowrythe God that has been revealing himself to me in my personal life, he's here in this book,

10:42Mike Lowrydescribed and defined,

10:44Mike Lowryfleshed out in

10:47Mike Lowryreally succinct and beautiful detail.

10:50Mike LowryAnd so that's the reason I find it convincing, is because personally to me, it's just

10:56Mike Lowrycoherent,

10:57Mike Lowrycogent,

10:58Mike Lowryand touching.

11:00Mike LowryAnd so

11:02Mike Lowrybeside all of that,

11:04Mike Lowryjust quite fantastic intellectually speaking, or just the content itself

11:10Mike Lowryis

11:11Mike Lowrythese highly crystallized concepts of spirituality, of God, philosophy,

11:17Mike Lowryand really nicely packaged retelling of the history

11:22Mike Lowryof humanity, and even before.

11:25Mike LowryThe story leading up to Christ and his incarnation,

11:28Mike Lowryincluding

11:29Mike Lowrythe angelic rebellion,

11:31Mike Lowryincluding the nature of creation of the central universe all the way to the formation of our planet and life on it, why we're here, and then the bestowal

11:39Mike Lowryincarnation of Christ on the planet is really what the book is about. Everything else is just background and set up for that telling of the story. So it's really like, through that book,

11:49Mike Lowrywe get to learn about Christ in a way that's so much more than in the third person retelling that we get in the gospels, which get it not

11:57Mike Lowrywrong, but it's just like, this is so much more complete. We get all of his life from

12:02Mike Lowrychildhood all the way through adulthood and even after the ascension and even before the incarnation.

12:07Mike LowryIt's all there. And every part of his life was a revelation of God, because he was God with us. So in the Bible, we get the ministry years

12:17Mike Lowryin partial,

12:18Mike Lowrybut in the Urantia papers, we get his entire life in full, told from the perspective of angels who were there with him and with the apostles.

12:25Mike LowryIt's a commission straight from heaven.

12:29Mike LowryAngelic messengers came and delivered the book a hundred years ago. Almost nobody knows about it. It's been spread only by word-of-mouth, and it was printed by just collection of

12:39Mike Lowryvoluntary funds. It wasn't a for profit venture, and it's been very slowly spread.

12:44Mike LowryI feel fortunate to have come across it, and I'm finding it amazing that almost nobody knows about it.

12:49Mike LowrySo that's where I'm coming from, and anyway, I found myself back into Christianity, understanding it in a way that's so much different than the Protestant Christianity I was brought up with.

12:59Mike LowryAnd I don't know anything about Orthodox.

13:01Mike LowryI'm learning about it slowly. I'm just freshly

13:04Mike Lowryintroduced to it at this point, And I'm trying to understand what is the Orthodox perspective. What is it that the church means to you, versus what the church means to these Catholics that I'm getting to know.

13:15Mike LowryAnd

13:17Mike Lowryobviously it's different than the church that I knew as a

13:20Mike Lowryborn again evangelical California Christian with my family upbringing.

13:25Mike LowryAnd then now I have a whole other perspective through the revelation of the book.

13:29Mike LowryAnd so I guess that's what I'll say, I'll wrap it up there.

13:33Mike LowryThat's what that's my connection to the re entry papers.

13:39MnestheusThat's one, Mike.

13:44Jay DyerCan I go?

13:45Mike LowryI have I have a list of questions we can jump to jump to with you, but I mean, that was that was the response to you.

13:52Mike LowryThat was a mouthful too though, but so this is your first time hearing about it?

13:56Jay DyerNo. I mean, I I've I don't know a lot of details, but I did read, I think a couple of essays maybe ten years ago when I first heard about it. And then I I have a book that covers a whole lot of different, religious groups that,

14:10Jay DyerI read a chapter in. And so I I remember, I I vaguely have ideas of what you guys,

14:16Jay Dyerbelieve. But,

14:20Jay Dyerwould you rather get into the some of the things that you said, or would you rather me kinda just give an overview what what Orthodox Christianity is?

14:27MnestheusI'd love the overview first, and then we could then we could get drill down into,

14:31Mnestheusdifferent questions.

14:32Jay DyerSo basically

14:33Jay Dyerright. So we think that the Orthodox Church is the true church. So in other words, we think there is a historical pedigree from the time of the apostles right after the ministry of Christ,

14:45Jay Dyerinto the first century that is based around what we call apostolic succession. So if you look in the book of acts or in the letters of Paul to Timothy or in his letter to Titus,

14:54Jay Dyeryou get this idea of Paul basically laying hands on people and passing down this

15:00Jay Dyerordained authority

15:02Jay Dyerthat's patterned on the way that there was a a lineage, a progeny of authority in the Old Testament, basically, the little bit the Levitical priesthood. So that's mirrored in the New Testament in the fulfillment of the church. And so if we read books like Hebrews,

15:15Jay Dyerwe look at chapters four, five, six, seven, eight, we get this

15:19Jay Dyerimagery of the priesthood of Christ being superior to the old testament priesthood of the of the Levites and the sacrifices.

15:26Jay DyerAnd it's identified as the Melchizedekian

15:28Jay Dyerpriesthood. So in many ways, you could see the the the the new

15:32Jay Dyerpriesthood that's spiritual in the sense of it not being just based on a kind of a a genealogical

15:38Jay Dyerlineage in the old testament. Now it's spiritual priesthood that we call apostolic succession, and that literally means

15:45Jay Dyera passing on of authority from the apostles to the people that they ordained. Paul says to Timothy, I laid hands on you. Timothy, you don't lay hands on anyone after you hastily, so be sure that they're good people.

15:58Jay DyerAnd, of course, we don't say that that alone is what is the characteristic of the true church, but also other marks or features.

16:06Jay DyerSo the church is going to be, we would say, with Paul in Ephesians one.

16:10Jay DyerIt's gonna be one body, one baptism. There's gonna be specific

16:14Jay Dyermarks.

16:15Jay DyerAnd eventually, by the time of what would become the creed, we get the four marks of the church that it's one holy Catholic and apostolic.

16:23Jay DyerCatholic is not limited for us to communion with the Roman Sea, but the empire wide church is the church that has that empire wide canonical confession of what eventually becomes the Nicene Creed, which we believe is in full continuity with the fathers prior to Nicaea and in full continuity with the old and new testament. So we don't see any, like, departure. We don't think Constantine made up a new church. We think that it's the same teaching pro pre and post Nicaea in terms of the fathers that we accept as the legitimate orthodox teachers, the saints,

16:56Jay DyerAmbrose, Ignatius, Irenaeus, Cyprian, etcetera. And then post Nicaea,

17:01Jay Dyerwe get that same doctrine, Athanasius,

17:04Jay Dyerso forth, and others

17:06Jay Dyercontinuing the same idea, the same faith. So for us,

17:09Jay Dyerthat historical

17:11Jay Dyerembodiment there that you have in the creeds,

17:14Jay Dyerin the seven ecumenical councils, that is the totality of what would be the first millennial Christianity. There's one more council, but we're gonna set that aside just because between Roman Catholics and Orthodox,

17:25Jay Dyerwe, least, loosely speaking, agree on these first seven.

17:29Jay DyerSo that more or less, you could say, is, like, the first thousand year chunk of Christianity that the East and West basically have in common.

17:37Jay DyerAfter that period, we start to go in different directions, and the Orthodox Church contends that it is faithful to the first millennium of Christianity.

17:46Jay DyerWe believe that the papacy,

17:48Jay Dyerthe Latin church, deviated.

17:49Jay DyerNot everybody in the West, to speak, many Orthodox churches in the West and many Orthodox churches in America. And hence, we go by the title of the Orthodox Catholic Church. We don't believe in things like the filioque doctrine. We don't believe in a lot of the Roman Catholic distinctives,

18:06Jay Dyerthe papacy, Vatican one's doctrine of invallibility,

18:09Jay Dyerand so forth, many other things as well. But that's what distinguishes us from the Roman Catholic church. So we see ourselves as basically

18:17Jay Dyergladly and proudly ossified in the first millennium of Christianity,

18:21Jay Dyerdoing the exact same type of Christianity that you would have seen in the days of Saint Basil, in the days of Saint Cyril, in the days of Saint John Damascus. Pick any, century

18:30Jay Dyerall the way back to Justin Martyr,

18:33Jay Dyeryou would have found the same basic structure of creed,

18:37Jay Dyerof liturgy, of sacraments, of initiation,

18:39Jay Dyerof bishops, apostolic succession, saints. It's all there. So that's what we say, and we believe that we put the bible together.

18:47Jay DyerWe are the interpreters of that text,

18:49Jay Dyerand, only in the orthodox church do you find the fullness. There's definitely things that Protestants have in common with us, definitely things that Roman Catholics have in common with us, but we think that we've maintained,

19:01Jay Dyerthe the fullness of that faith. So that's what Orthodox Christianity is.

19:06MnestheusNice. That's a a a very, thorough

19:09Mnestheusand yet concise summary.

19:12MnestheusAnd I just wanted to throw something out there before we get into

19:16Mnestheusthe nitty gritty, which I'm dying to get into. But as we were talking about before with your debate with

19:22MnestheusMatt Della Hunte, the divide here is going to be a presuppositional one, and it's gonna be about authority.

19:28MnestheusMike takes the authority of the Urantia Papers as angelicly,

19:32Mnestheusgive you know, gifted. It's a revelation from God. Therefore,

19:36Mnestheusit has, you know, direct

19:38Mnestheusdivine authority.

19:40MnestheusAnd, of course,

19:41Mnestheusthe bible's looked at in a similar way,

19:44Mnestheuswith with, I guess, more room for fallibility

19:48Mnestheusin a sense, because we recognize the humanness of the authors

19:52Mnestheusand and the the span of history and the different contexts and different genres that are in the bible.

19:59MnestheusBut it's still seen as, you know, one of the authorities

20:02Mnestheuswithin orthodoxy.

20:03MnestheusAm I characterizing that fairly, Jay?

20:08Jay DyerI would affirm a stronger view of,

20:11Jay Dyerinerrancy. So I would I would go go on and just and just and say that the scriptures are,

20:16Jay Dyerinerrant. I think that is a patristic teaching.

20:19Jay DyerThere are copious manuscript errors and those kinds of things. Those are a little bit different. But,

20:24Jay Dyerbasically, yes, we don't believe in, you know, bible alone like protestants do. We believe that the bible functions within the context of the life and experience of the church. And for us, it's a liturgical book, which means it's kind of a worship book. So really, that's the proper context

20:39Jay Dyerto place the bible.

20:42MnestheusRight.

20:44MnestheusAnd, and so so therein lies the, the divide, you know, and I guess we're gonna have to try to dance around that, in exploring the specifics of what Urantia claims and

20:56Mnestheusand what orthodoxy claims, I guess.

21:00MnestheusMike, where do you wanna take this? I mean, you could start at any level, really, all the way from creation down.

21:06Mike LowryWe've had several requests and, before I I give, give into this I need to say thank you to Jolly Rogue, who just donated one ninja ginny. You guys, we are on d live as well. Little plug for the d live channel. We'd like you to meet us over there. Link is in the description.

21:22Mike LowryWho knows how long we'll be on YouTube.

21:24Mike LowrySo everybody's moving there. D live is available for you. Thank you, Jolly Rogue.

21:30Mike LowrySome of the the requests I've had would be for me to ask you the same question, Jay, that I asked to Rouche when I called in to his q and a a couple weeks ago.

21:41Mike LowryAnd the question goes like this.

21:45Mike LowryWhen Jesus was with the apostles,

21:48Mike Lowryhis disciples,

21:50Mike Lowryhe was still with them when he was training them, and then taking them around from town to town, and they were preaching the gospel together. What

22:00Mike Lowryis that gospel that they were preaching?

22:05Jay DyerWell, I would say two senses. Right? So

22:09Jay Dyerthere's going to be a a fullness of the gospel when revelation

22:14Jay Dyeris complete. So for us, there's a ceasing of revelation with the death of the last apostle.

22:19Jay DyerWe acknowledge that there's oral tradition, absolutely. So the the when the apostles went out and preached, anything that they taught was gospel and was

22:29Jay Dyerrevelation, was authoritative because they were given that status and that power by Christ himself. And so, for example, not just preaching, but, I mean, Christ even breathes on the apostles in the upper room and says, you have the authority.

22:40Jay DyerWhoever sins, you remit. They're remitted. Whoever sins, you retain, they're retained. Right? So he he he doesn't just give them authority to preach, but also to cast out demons, to tread on scorpions, as Luke says, right, to

22:51Jay Dyerbind into loose. And so for us, that would include all kinds of things even to the point of,

22:57Jay Dyeryou know,

22:58Jay Dyerconfession. Right? I mean, we we would say that the church has the authority through confession to remit and retain sins. And,

23:05Jay Dyeryou know, in the Protestant

23:07Jay Dyerviews of this, it really seems kind of impossible to me that there would even be something like that. Why would Jesus even say something like that? I know that's not where you were going with that text. I'm just using that as an example of how a tradition in the church would develop from these ideas. But there's a lot of places in the New Testament, for example, where we have rec records of Jesus saying things like it's more blessed to give than to receive. Paul quotes this. This is not found in any specific gospel, so we know that there's oral traditions. Paul teaches,

23:35Jay DyerI think it's in acts twenty, three days and for three years, for three years, day and night in Ephesus.

23:41Jay DyerRight? And everything that he taught orally,

23:44Jay Dyerhe in gives the injunction to Timothy to pass on. He also gives the same injunction to the Thessalonians. It's that second Thessalonians to pass on anything,

23:53Jay Dyerwhether he taught it orally or in written form. So we're we we would acknowledge as the Jews in the Old Testament acknowledged,

24:01Jay Dyerthere is legitimate valid oral teaching. It's not all just codified in written text. That's kind of a Protestant misconception. But,

24:10Jay Dyerwhere where I'm getting a little confused here is that

24:14Jay Dyerwe we can't

24:16Jay Dyerdivorce,

24:18Jay Dyerlike, what the gospel is from

24:21Jay Dyerhistory. And I'm not saying you're necessarily doing that, but my question would be along those lines. Like, don't you think we kinda have to go with what was historically the case?

24:30Jay DyerAnd then the people after the time of the apostles look at them to see what that

24:35Jay Dyerapostolic oral tradition is. Don't you think we need to go back to those people?

24:43Mike LowryThat's a really good question. We should address that. But before we do, can I press you again to see what's your answer to specifically what I'm asking? What was Jesus

24:52Mike Lowrywhat were they preaching while Jesus was with the apostles and they were

24:57Mike Lowryyou know, traveling around? What do you imagine was the core of what's the news that they were spreading? What's the message they were telling the people?

25:03Jay DyerWell, says throughout the gospels, the the gospel of the kingdom. Right? The kingdom of God is upon you. The kingdom of God is here. Repent. It's the time of the kingdom, which is Christ himself. Right? The kingdom of God is within you. So we know that this is an inner

25:16Jay Dyerexperience that's going to primarily be the life of the Holy Spirit.

25:20Jay DyerEventually, it's gonna expand into much more than that.

25:23Jay DyerBut during the gospel time when he's sending out the 70, it's to preach the gospel of the good news of the kingdom, to heal the sick, to cast out demons. But, again, remember this is all prior to the resurrection.

25:34Jay DyerAnd so this

25:36Jay DyerI'm not saying you can't look at that as the, quote, gospel, but the gospel will be that's all still in in anticipation

25:43Jay Dyerof the death, burial, and resurrection. And then Paul will say that the gospel is Christ dying and and and resurrecting.

25:50Mike LowryIndeed.

25:51Mike LowrySo that's the distinction that we're aiming at with that question I asked you, which is

25:56Mike Lowryif maybe you can help us get an even more, you know, a fuller understanding of why it seemed that when Jesus was with us,

26:03Mike Lowryhe was teaching the disciples and through them teaching the people about the gospel of the kingdom, which was about

26:10Mike Lowryforgiveness,

26:11Mike Lowrylove,

26:12Mike Lowryspiritual unity,

26:14Mike Lowryconnecting with the father spirit.

26:17Mike LowryAnd then after his death, burial,

26:20Mike Lowryresurrection, ascension,

26:21Mike Lowryanother character named Paul came on the scene and through him, we start hearing about the atonement of sins through the death and sacrifice of Jesus on the cross.

26:30Mike LowryWhy did the gospel message seem to switch emphasis

26:34Mike Lowryfrom

26:35Mike Lowrythe brotherhood of the kingdom to

26:38Mike Lowrythe atonement of the cross?

26:40Jay DyerI'm not trying to be contentious here, but I would my response to that would be that I think that you're selectively looking at different areas of the gospels to neglect the other areas that Jesus does talk about. For example, in Matthew 16, Jesus says that

26:55Jay Dyerthe kingdom of God is the church. So he identifies the kingdom as the the the the body of believers that he's set up.

27:03Mike LowryWhen yes. Exactly.

27:05Jay DyerRight. So the so the kingdom is the the But did he say

27:08Mike Lowrythe church?

27:10Jay DyerYes. He says that the my kingdom will be founded on this confession of Peter and it will not fall. Right? So the confession of hold on. So there's the statement in Matthew sixteen eighteen of the church being set up. And then a few chapters later in Matthew 18, he says collectively to that body of the same apostles. He says that whoever sins, you retain, they retain. Right? So he gives them the office, what we call the office of the keys. Right? So I'm just giving one example of where Jesus talks about

27:39Jay Dyerthe kingdom and identifies it with the church. We think that the church is the kingdom of God. And so Jesus in many places says that he's going to die. So I I don't think you in other words, it's a presupposition that Paul taught something different

27:53Jay Dyerthan what Jesus is laying the groundwork for because most of those parables, if you look at, for example, the parables, of the sower,

28:02Jay Dyerif you look at the parable of the

28:04Mike LowryHey, Jay. If you if you don't mind, let me slow you down before we get too many different examples. Can we go can we cover the first one before we go on to a bunch more? I don't wanna get into a situation where we get flooded with too many quick brief touchdowns

28:17Mike Lowryversus actually covering an idea before we move on to another one.

28:20Jay DyerOkay. But let me end with the fact that I'm just saying that the parables of the kingdom

28:26Jay Dyerare the same as the church. The kingdom is the church, and so when he talks about parables of the vineyard and the vine keeper,

28:34Jay Dyerand the the son of the the the vineyard owner and this kind of stuff, and that the king will come home and that there's a guy a guy not wearing a wedding garment. Right? Matthew 22.

28:44Jay DyerThese different parables are telling the same type of story about the anticipatory

28:49Jay Dyerkingdom that Jesus is setting up. He even says Yeah. I will seat the apostles on 12 thrones,

28:55Jay Dyerand you will eat you will dine with me,

28:58Jay Dyerright, in the kingdom of God.

29:00Jay DyerThat is the church. And for us, these are all

29:03Jay Dyerbanquet statements about the Eucharist. The Eucharistic feast is that marriage banquet in those parables.

29:13Mike LowryI totally agree with you.

29:15Mike LowryAnd so does the Urantia book that the

29:18Mike Lowrykingdom is

29:20Mike Lowrythe brotherhood of believers.

29:21Mike LowryWhat you're referring to as the church.

29:24Mike LowryI need to look up. I will seat the apostles

29:26Mike Lowryon 12 thrones.

29:28Mike LowryWhere's that found?

29:31Mike Lowry19.

29:32Jay DyerOff the top of my head, I'm not sure. But he says, will give you 12 thrones

29:38Jay Dyerand you will sit with me judging the 12 tribes of Israel. He says

29:43Mike LowryEpic.

29:44Mike LowryBut

29:47Jay DyerI I can get there for you in just a second.

29:49Mike LowryBut I got it. It's 19 verse

29:52Mike Lowry28.

29:53Mike LowryYeah. I

29:55Mike Lowrysay that you

29:56Mike Lowrythat ye which have followed me in the regeneration

30:00Mike Lowrywhen the son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory. He shall also sit upon 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes.

30:09Mike LowryMhmm.

30:10Mike LowryEveryone that had forsaken the house, all the yada yada. Okay, this is great. I wanna do a study on that.

30:15Jay DyerRight. When do you think Jesus sat on the throne?

30:21Mike LowryWhen do I think he sat on the throne?

30:25Mike LowryI don't know. I don't know the answer to that question.

30:27Jay DyerWell, there's a lot of New Testament texts that tell us that when when he ascended, he sat at the right hand of the father waiting until his enemies be made subject to him. Hence, the Psalm.

30:36Mike LowryOkay.

30:38Mike LowryI'm with it.

30:39Mike LowryWorks for me. No disagreement there.

30:41Jay DyerSo if he has what but what I'm getting at is that if he ascended, know, back in the book early the book of acts, right, he that's when he ascends. And if he sits at the right hand of the father then, which is what he's saying here that I will sit you will sit with me. We see when John sees into heaven, he sees the saints in heaven around the throne of the lamb.

31:00Jay DyerIf that began in the first century,

31:03Jay Dyerdoesn't it stand to reason that the gates of hell didn't prevail against that church that was set up in the first century?

31:11Mike LowryI suppose if you look at it in the way you're looking at it, I can see how that absolutely makes sense.

31:18Mike LowryTo me, I'm not sure that that one reference that you just made in Matthew

31:22Mike Lowryis a definitive

31:23Mike Lowryproof that that's an actual reality in the universe where there's 12 apostles sitting around the throne somewhere.

31:30Jay DyerWell, the apostles are in heaven. That's what I'm saying. Right? So when John sees into heaven, he sees those that had died for the confession of Christ already reigning with Christ.

31:40Mike LowryOkay.

31:41Mike LowrySo and again, also, I don't I don't know I don't know what the revelation to John on the Isle Of Patmos and his vision that he had at that time. I don't know. I don't know if that's a diff if that's definitive proof of a reality of 12 apostles sitting around a throne somewhere,

31:56Mike Lowryor if this is an early church concept of the post

32:00Mike Lowryascension

32:03Mike Lowrydisciples.

32:05Mike LowryI could because I'm not convinced that they got everything that they said.

32:08Jay DyerWhen they die?

32:12Mike LowryWell,

32:14Mike Lowryheaven is not a

32:16Mike Lowryplace where you go when you when you die necessarily. I mean, the the I don't believe that. The the concept of heaven I'm not sure that we have the same concept. It may be not of hell either. This might be a clarification

32:27Mike LowryHey,

32:28MnestheusMike. I think But I really

32:29Mike Lowrywanna go back to I I wanna keep

32:31Mnestheusgoing with this It's probably good at this point to for you to give a bit of the,

32:36MnestheusUrantia perspective, Mike. Sorry, we've we've got a little delay. But, a couple a few people in the comments have been

32:42Mnestheustrying to understand what this conversation is because they don't know what you believe.

32:46MnestheusSo if you can give the elevator pitch of the theology

32:50Mnestheusof Urantia, that would probably help Jay and the people at home.

32:54Mike LowryAnd that will be even a good segue for us to cover that spot that you touched on before,

32:59Mike Lowrythat we didn't spend time with, but it's really important. And it's the same place that Ruch Ruch v took us, which was Matthew 16,

33:06Mike Lowrythe conversation with Peter and the other apostles,

33:08Mike Lowryand he had said to them, who do you say that I am?

33:12Mike LowryThey said, Some say that you're this prophet, some say that you're that one. He says, Well, forget that. Who do you say that I am? And Peter said,

33:21Mike LowryYou're the Christ, the son of the living God.

33:24Mike LowryAnd

33:27Mike LowryJesus says to Peter at that point, No man has revealed this to you. It was the Father in heaven who revealed this to you. And upon that rock,

33:35Mike LowryI will build my church or my brotherhood, my kingdom.

33:41Mike LowrySo

33:42Mike Lowrywhat that means to me,

33:44Mike Lowryand also

33:46Mike Lowrywhat that means in the Urantia papers,

33:49Mike Lowryit was that direct revelation to Peter that Jesus was referring to. He was making a remark on the fact that Peter had had a direct revelation

33:58Mike Lowrythrough the father's spirit to him.

34:01Mike LowryAnd upon that,

34:02Mike Lowrythat individual

34:04Mike Lowryrelationship

34:05Mike Lowryto the heavenly father,

34:07Mike Lowryupon that, the brotherhood will be built. He was pointing out that Peter was being a demonstration

34:14Mike Lowryof what Jesus was trying to teach his apostles

34:17Mike Lowryand what he wanted them to

34:19Mike Lowrythen go and teach to everyone else, that we are spirit conduits

34:23Mike Lowryfor the father's spirit,

34:25Mike Lowryand we can have direct

34:27Mike Lowryrelationship to him.

34:29Mike LowryIt's an inner experience.

34:30Mike LowryAnd when we have that direct relationship to the father, as Peter had just demonstrated in answering that question that way,

34:38Mike Lowrythen we can build a spirit born brotherhood on the earth that we will know as the church.

34:44Jay DyerRight, but So

34:46Mike Lowrygo ahead.

34:47Mike LowrySo that

34:48Mike Lowrywas not in that moment a bestowal of special authority on Peter to then be the foundation of a new organization that will become known as the church. And then that church will have

35:00Mike Lowryauthority of making particular decrees

35:02Mike Lowryabout the gospel.

35:04Mike LowryThat's not what it was. What it was, he was pointing to

35:07Mike Lowrythe church is going to be a brotherhood of people who have learned how

35:12Mike Lowryto hear from the Father.

35:14Mike LowryAnd as we learn that, the church will grow and the gates of hell will not stand against that new spirit born brotherhood.

35:21Mike LowryBecause currently, the spirit that prevails in the earth

35:24Mike Lowryis the spirit of rebellion. The devil runs this planet.

35:28Mike LowryAnd he had stolen us away spiritually

35:31Mike Lowrythousands of years beforehand.

35:32Mike LowryAnd Christ was restoring

35:34Mike Lowrythe spirit circuit to the father

35:36Mike Lowrythrough his life, his teaching, his demonstration,

35:39Mike Lowryand his dethroning

35:41Mike Lowryof the reigning prince while he was here.

35:44Mike LowryAnd so ever since he's ascended,

35:46Mike Lowryand again, I'm in broad terms paraphrasing the concepts of the Urantia paper, the clarification it makes, which is that

35:54Mike Lowryin the early church after Pentecost,

35:58Mike Lowryyou just

35:59Mike Lowrycorrectly

36:00Mike Lowrylaid out the system by which we can look at the direct connection all the way back to the early church in Orthodoxy, let's say.

36:07Mike LowryAnd some others might disagree with you, but I don't. I don't have any reason to. But my

36:13Mike Lowrymy problem though, that I might discover is that you're going all the way back to Paul.

36:18Mike LowryBut Paul to me,

36:20Mike LowryPeter and Paul particularly,

36:22Mike Lowryit was after Pentecost when the bestowal of the spirit of truth came upon, and they started preaching about their excitement about the risen Christ.

36:31Mike LowryThe whole message of the church got turned into the message about the risen Christ.

36:36Mike LowryAnd then Paul being an active charismatic,

36:40Mike Lowrypassionate, effective spreader of Christ's message,

36:44Mike Lowryinteracting with Greeks and Romans and other Jews, Hebrews,

36:48Mike Lowryhe ended up

36:49Mike Lowrynot, let's say perverting,

36:52Mike Lowrybut converting the gospel message, making little tweaks and changes here and there in order to adapt it to other audiences, like he did on Mars Hill when he was speaking to the Hellenist and said, hey, look at this, this statue of the unknown God, that's the God we're talking about. So he was adapting Christ to their frame of concept. In the same way,

37:11Mike Lowryhe did an adaptation for the Hebrews and saying, don't worry about sacrifice anymore, Christ was the final sacrifice.

37:18Mike LowrySo he did a thing like that, and that became canonized into scripture, it got adopted into early church history, and in the second century, when the church really blew up through

37:27Mike Lowrythe Roman empire,

37:29Mike Lowrythat became

37:30Mike Lowrythe core teaching of the church, which is that Christ's death, resurrection, and ultimately his atoning sacrifice is the purpose of his life. And we got steered off from the actual message, which is that he was showing us how to have direct spiritual connection with the father. And upon that spiritual connection for each individual brother in the brotherhood,

37:49Mike Lowrythat type of love shared one another will change the world.

37:53Mike LowrySo first And that's how they would know that we were grafted into the the living vine.

37:57Jay DyerSo in many places, for example, in the gospel of John,

38:01Jay DyerJesus speaks of himself as the fulfillment of

38:05Jay Dyerthe Passover. Right? So he refers to himself as the Passover lamb. When you get into the high priestly prayer, Jesus talks about the holy spirit coming and that when he sends it, he will send it to his church, to his people, to his apostles, and then it will lead and guide them into all truth.

38:21Jay DyerEven promises some really wild things like

38:25Jay Dyerthat this church will possess

38:27Jay Dyerthe very glory that he had with the father before the foundation of the world. That's all in John 17. So we know the father hears Christ's

38:35Jay Dyerhigh priestly prayer there in John fifteen, sixteen, 17.

38:39Jay DyerRight? And especially in 16 when he talks about him sending the person of the Holy Spirit.

38:44Jay DyerWhen we look at the book of Acts and we see that that's a historical empowerment,

38:49Jay Dyerit doesn't work to

38:51Jay Dyerdo a revisionism

38:53Jay Dyerthing where you look back and say, oh, but then I'm gonna do the blackout thing where at this point,

38:59Jay Dyerthe church went bad. I don't accept the church fathers after point x y z because Christ is saying that this empowerment

39:06Jay Dyeris coming into time and space into history.

39:09Jay DyerIt's not going to leave. The the kingdom of god can't fail. Right? And he is instituting

39:15Jay Dyeran organizational church, And that's why Paul, in his letters to Timothy, is not doing something new. He's following the pattern

39:22Jay Dyerof the apostles that had been ordained by Christ

39:25Jay Dyerwho went out and taught I mean, Paul's Paul is not doing a different missionary enterprise than Peter or anyone else in the sense of what they're preaching. Right? That's why they do have a disagreement,

39:35Jay Dyerbut Paul ends up being right at the council in Acts 15 where Paul and Peter and everybody, right, they settle the issue of how to receive Gentiles into the church. So the arbitrary picking of a point where you're gonna say, I'm gonna accept

39:48Jay Dyerthe narrative,

39:49Jay Dyerearly on. And then at this point, when Paul converts

39:52Jay Dyerand he sees Christ, then I'm gonna say that it's a different type of thing by Acts 17 when he's I mean, I could we could go right now through the Psalms.

40:01Jay DyerThe Psalms in the history of the church and in most of the apologetic argumentation of the church fathers and the way that the Psalms are cited in the gospels

40:08Jay Dyerconsistently

40:09Jay Dyerpresent a pattern in dozens,

40:12Jay Dyeractually, where there's a death, burial, and resurrection

40:15Jay Dyerpattern and motif that David is prophesying

40:19Jay Dyerof the the Messiah, that that Christ will die. He will descend into Hades,

40:24Jay Dyerand he will resurrect in that body. Now I can prove that by the fact that in the gospels,

40:30Jay Dyerwhen the text from the Psalms are cited about the Messiah,

40:33Jay Dyerthe pattern and motif

40:35Jay Dyerof those messianic prophecies

40:37Jay Dyeris the same in multiple Psalms. Right? So it just in my personal reading this last couple weeks, I just happened to be go going through the Psalms.

40:46Jay DyerAnd what I noticed, for example, in Psalm two,

40:50Jay DyerPsalm 18,

40:52Jay DyerPsalm 22,

40:54Jay DyerYou get into the thirties. Psalm

40:56Jay Dyerlet's see.

40:58Jay Dyer29.

40:59Jay DyerThis is in the the 30 if you have the the Masoretic

41:03Jay Dyertext.

41:04Jay DyerPsalm 32,

41:06Jay Dyer31, 32,

41:08Jay Dyer33,

41:10Jay Dyerthirty

41:16Jay Dyerthirty

41:17Jay Dyer40.

41:19Jay DyerAnd I can keep going, but what you start to notice is that same pattern of

41:23Jay Dyerconstant

41:24Jay Dyermessianic prediction.

41:26Jay DyerAnd they're messianic predictions of David saying

41:29Jay Dyerthat his human nature that he's suffering in is a prediction of the the body that God's preparing for the son of God and the death that he's gonna experience. So you've got dozens of psalms that are teaching you the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. So the idea that Christ is somehow

41:47Jay Dyernot teaching that message and just teaching a kind of an ethical message of

41:52Jay Dyerbrotherly love is to completely miss the purpose of the holistic revelation.

41:57Jay DyerChrist is giving that message to all the apostles. That's why they all teach the death and resurrection,

42:03Jay Dyerand that's why there's many times where Jesus predicts his own resurrection.

42:07Jay DyerWhat does he say about Jonah? Jonah was in the heart of the well for three days and three nights,

42:12Jay Dyerand so will the son of man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights, hence, and then the resurrection. Right? I am he. I am he. Christ constantly says to the pharisees that he is the I am, and so he's not gonna be held by death. If you tear this body down, tear this temple down in three days, I will build it back. It's prediction of the resurrection. Now there's many, many of these. We can go through the many places in the gospels that talk about the death and resurrection. But the fact that he's teaching parables, that doesn't prove that Paul's teaching something different.

42:43Mike LowryWell, the the problem isn't with the death, burial, and resurrection.

42:47Mike LowryThere's no challenge there. Well, you said that

42:50Mike Lowryfocused on that.

42:52Mike LowryHe focused on the atonement principle.

42:56Mike LowrySo that's different than saying whether or not he died.

42:59Jay DyerOkay. So for us though, that is the atonement. So I'm I'm not sure what Where's the disconnect here? I'm not understanding.

43:04Mike LowrySo prophesying

43:06Mike Lowrythat the Messiah would die, be buried, and he would be resurrected is different than saying when Jesus died

43:12Mike Lowryand was buried and resurrected,

43:14Mike Lowrythe reason for that is that it took away your sins.

43:19Mike LowryThat's what the atonement says,

43:21Mike Lowrythat you're attaching the removal of sins

43:24Mike Lowryto

43:26Mike Lowrythe death on the cross versus what you just told me is that the Psalms are foreshadowing an event that did in fact take place, but Paul is putting a meaning on that event that didn't exist before that.

43:38Jay DyerOkay. Why why do you think the death of Christ wouldn't take away sin? I'm confused here. What do you think it did?

43:46Mike LowryIt was

43:49Mike Lowryit what do you mean what it did what it did? What does it do when you die?

43:53Jay DyerDeath, realm, and resurrection of Christ.

43:56Mike LowryThat was just the event when he was executed

43:59Mike Lowryby his enemies after a betrayal.

44:00Jay DyerSo it doesn't have significance?

44:03Mike LowryNo.

44:05Jay DyerReally?

44:06Jay DyerI'm

44:07Jay Dyernot trying to mean, I'm just I've lost, like

44:10Mike LowryNo. This is what I'm saying. This is this idea that you're

44:13Mike Lowrytaking for granted emerged with Paul.

44:17Jay DyerNo. It didn't. I mean,

44:19Jay Dyerso there's all these prophecies of the death and resurrection, but they don't have a redemptive significance.

44:25Mike LowryI'm not aware of that. Can you,

44:27Mike Lowryfix that for me? Like, I I don't think that there is. There's prophecies that it will happen, but Paul gives meaning to the happening that they prophesied.

44:34Mike LowryHe Christ himself said said, I will die,

44:37Mike Lowryand I'll come back. But he didn't say, I will do that, and then when I have done that, believing in that or accepting that or anything like that will have to do with atoning for your sins.

44:47Mike LowryHe didn't say that I am a sacrifice. Right?

44:49Jay DyerHe says I am the resurrection and the life. He tells in John 11 the whole gospel of the resurrection

44:55Jay Dyerto the people that are standing there in terms around Lazarus' tomb.

45:00Mike LowryWell, he is the resurrection.

45:02Mike LowryHe is the spirit that when you are connected to his spirit, you've given birth to an immortal soul. Eternal life has to do with connecting with the father. When the father's spirit has been born within you

45:13Jay DyerOkay. I can use I see. I see. So you're using the words in a way different way than we mean them. Okay. I so that's why I was confused is that the these are you have attached different meanings to these words that we don't use.

45:27Jay DyerI see the disconnect now. Okay. So

45:31Jay Dyermay maybe let's rewind a little bit.

45:34Jay DyerWhy do you think that that's the correct on what epistemic basis do you think that's the correct

45:41Jay Dyerway to approach and understand these texts?

45:46Mike LowryWell, I'm

45:47Mike Lowrywhat do what do you mean epistemic?

45:50Mike LowrySay say it in

45:51Jay DyerHow how so what we have is two like, we so like James was saying, we have two different paradigms here of how to go about understanding these words and understanding the parables and the context and the the history of the the text and whatnot.

46:03Jay DyerRight. And what I'm asking you is that so you've got a presupposition

46:06Jay Dyerabout, let's just call it a polling

46:09Jay Dyerconspiracy. Do you think it was a mistake or conspiracy that that poll did something different?

46:14Mike LowryI think it was a well intentioned

46:17Mike LowryI think it was I think it was

46:19Mike Lowrylike to give the benefit of the doubt and say that it was a well intended

46:23Mike Lowryerror.

46:24Jay DyerOkay. So you've got a bunch of phrases and terms that you've given meanings that are different from the historic,

46:31Jay Dyerthe the patristic,

46:32Jay Dyerthe the meanings that we've typically understood those things to mean. Right? This idea that you said Jesus,

46:38Jay Dyerwe become an immoral spirit when he we connect to the father through

46:42Jay DyerJesus or however you phrased it. So you're not you you don't believe that the bodily resurrection of Christ is what, like, saves the whole created order, basically? No. Okay.

46:53Jay DyerSo it's a gnostic idea that you have. So this is gnosticism.

46:57Jay DyerAnd what I'm asking is,

46:59Jay Dyerwhere do you get the understanding or the argument or the basis to know that that is the right criteria to judge the New Testament or Paul?

47:08Mike LowryBefore we go, you just labeled me as gnostic. Can you help me understand what that means?

47:13Jay DyerThe I'm not saying that you're intentionally,

47:15Jay Dyeraffirming a gnosticism.

47:17Jay DyerYou may not, but I'm just saying that the the the argument that you're making is a is a doc a doccadic or docetism type of position where

47:25Jay Dyerthe,

47:26Jay Dyerthe real Jesus is a spiritual Jesus, a kind of a a consciousness.

47:30Jay DyerAnd so there's this assumption that the incarnation

47:33Jay Dyerdoes not mean what the church always taught it meant, the second person that God had assuming human nature.

47:38Jay DyerSo it's it's totally different meaning of the term, and I'm I'm detecting a an assumption of gnostic presuppositions here, which is just the idea that

47:46Mike LowryI don't know if

47:47Mnestheusyou're getting the right assumption. Prellest, mentioning this prellest prellest heresy,

47:52MnestheusI think, as well quite a bit. So I'd be interested

47:54Jay Dyerto hear So for us for us, prelast is delusion. It's spiritual delusion. I'm not being mean. I'm just saying that's what the word prelast means. That's why I keep people keep saying it.

48:02MnestheusOkay. Right.

48:04Mike LowryOkay. It's not the first time I've heard that. So I mean

48:08MnestheusIt's just a satiric

48:09Mike LowryLet's go. Supervising.

48:12Jay DyerSo let me put it like this. So when you gave your arguments about

48:16Jay Dyerthe first things that you said, you said my subjective experience and appeal tells me that,

48:22Jay Dyeryou know, your ranch is coherent to me.

48:25Jay DyerYeah. But what I'm getting at is here is that you it needs to be objective. Like, you need to demonstrate it in an objective way, and so we need to know how you know these things are correct.

48:39Jay DyerLike, what would you say to a mormon?

48:40Mike LowryDo I

48:41Mnestheushave to do that?

48:42Jay DyerBecause how would you is what

48:43MnestheusI asked you as well, Mike.

48:44Jay DyerI was a response to Mormon who says that I have a burning in my bosom that tells me Mormonism is correct and your answer is wrong.

48:53Mike LowryI don't have any problem with that person if they're connecting with Christ. If their doctrine or their theology is wacky Yeah. But Christ. But

49:00Jay DyerBut who is Christ? Like, I say that he's the second person of godhead who assumed human nature resurrected

49:05Jay Dyerand therefore, that's how we're all gonna be resurrected. That's you have a different Jesus. You don't have the

49:10Mike LowryNo. I agree I agree with everything you just said.

49:12Jay DyerNo. But you have different meanings for the words. Right? So the the meaning is different. It doesn't matter whether we're using the

49:16Mike Lowrysame word. But if my frame of mental intellectual

49:20Mike Lowryconceptualization

49:21MnestheusHow do

49:21Mike Lowryyou know? Things isn't the same as yours, is one of us okay and the other one's not?

49:25Jay DyerCorrect. They both can't be correct.

49:28Mike LowryBut if if one of them is more correct than the other or one of them is absolutely

49:32Jay Dyerfalse and one of them is correct.

49:34Mike LowryAnd and what is the effect of that? What happens?

49:37Jay DyerWell, you have a heretical Jesus. You're not worshiping Jesus.

49:41Mike LowryWho are you worshiping?

49:43Jay DyerYou or me?

49:45Mike LowryIf you're a heretical Jesus, who then are you worshiping when you worship Jesus?

49:49Jay DyerWell, you're you would be in delusion. You'd be worshiping yourself, Satan. It doesn't matter.

49:54Jay DyerWhat I'm asking about so how do you know how do you delineate between different people's subjective claims and experiences? What is the what is the standard that you can use?

50:05Mike LowryThe fruit of the spirit.

50:07Jay DyerK. That's subjective. I'm asking for an objective standard.

50:10Jay DyerRight? So because everybody's gonna say that I've I'm a nice guy. I'm I'm peaceful and gentle.

50:17Jay DyerThe Mormon's a nice guy, peaceful, gentle. You are.

50:20Jay DyerWhat tells us objectively which of these positions is correct?

50:25Mike LowryWell, you're asking a question that's really not a religious question.

50:29Jay DyerOf course, it is. It's a it's an objective, epistemic question. I can give you

50:33Mike Lowryan answer. It's objective and epistemic,

50:35Mike Lowrybut it's not religious.

50:37Jay DyerWhy do you think that I mean, there's a whole domain of religious epistemology.

50:41Jay DyerSo of course it is.

50:42Mike LowryWell,

50:43Mike Lowrythat's an intellectual endeavor into the into the area of religionism,

50:48Mike Lowrybut it's not actually religion to be

50:51Mike Lowryintellectually

50:52Mike Lowryepistemic

50:53Mike Lowryand object. Well,

50:54Jay Dyerdisagree. It is. The church has a whole history of dogmas and debates that are epicentic, and that are

50:59Mike LowryWell, that's true. The church has that, but the church isn't always religious either. The church is a institution. It's an organization. It's a big thought experiment. It's a bunch of people thinking about stuff, but that's not what religion is.

51:10Jay DyerWell, you're saying that it's a thought experiment, but the Bible is full of apologetics and Jesus doing apologetics and debating. The apostles go out and do apologetics and debate.

51:19Jay DyerTo So say that

51:20Mike Lowrywasn't doing religion either. That's just something that they partook in. Usually, when they were confronted by pharisees.

51:25Jay DyerSo what is you're saying that it's not, quote, religion. Again, you're using very broad generic terms.

51:30Jay DyerBut, again, how do you know the difference between occult and not occult?

51:38Mike LowryOccult meaning

51:39Mike Lowryhidden

51:41Jay DyerNo. No.

51:41Mike LowrySymbolism? A.

51:43Mike LowryOh, occult. Oh,

51:45Mike LowryI see.

51:46Mike LowryOccult and not occult?

51:52Mike LowryI don't I

51:53Mnestheusdon't know cults. So that.com.

51:57MnestheusJoin us.

51:58Mike LowrySo why why is there not an argument?

51:59Jay DyerDon't have an external standard that we can appeal to that's objective to know the difference between true and false religions,

52:05Jay Dyerthen

52:07Jay Dyerthere's not an argument here.

52:10Mike LowryGreat. I'm not here to argue, really.

52:12Mike LowryI'm just here to learn about what you're saying and clear An argument is

52:16Jay Dyernot the same thing as arguing. So in debate, you have Oh, sorry. You have a

52:21Jay Dyerproposition and you have, you know, defending the claim. I don't mean an argument. I'm saying

52:25Mike LowryOh, I see. Yeah.

52:26Mike LowryWell, I'm

52:27Mike Lowrylook, I don't find it to be valuable for anybody's

52:31Mike Lowryconnection with God,

52:33Mike Lowryas far as I know, and I might learn more.

52:36Jay DyerOkay. But did you

52:37Mike LowryThe way that I see it currently, I don't find to be

52:41Mike Lowryonly the pharisees.

52:43Jay DyerNo. He debates the sadducees also who are liberals.

52:45Mike LowryOh, I'm sorry. Yeah. So only the religious rulers who were literally working for Satan and trying to stop him.

52:52Jay DyerOkay.

52:53Jay DyerBut

52:54Jay Dyerthere's

52:55Jay Dyerthe fact that he does it with religious leaders doesn't mean that it can't be done in a general sense. I mean

53:01Mike LowrySo my my point being if someone attacks you with an argument to try to catch you up in something, if you're sagacious enough to,

53:09Mike Lowrylike he was, brilliant, to be able to maneuver through that in an effective and classy way, fantastic. But that's not the way we build each other up spiritually. That's not actually a religious practice. That's just a way that he dealt with his enemies Okay. In a loving and clever

53:23Jay DyerWhat I'm

53:24Jay Dyeris that, like,

53:26Jay Dyeryou're right that we have to love people, but love can't be divorced from what's true. So there has to be a balance between love and truth.

53:33Jay DyerBecause if there's not a a a normative objective standard of truth,

53:38Jay Dyerthen we're we're subject to our own delusions, our own self deception,

53:43Jay Dyerand the deception of others. Right? We can be deceived by other people. We can be going out and thinking that we're, sincere in teaching good stuff, and we're not. We're wrong. Right? So there has to be some kind of, like, standard.

53:55Jay DyerAnd, you know, all throughout the old testament, there's a standard. There's a a group. There's an authority. Jesus even says in Matthew 23,

54:02Jay Dyereven though the pharisees were,

54:04Jay Dyerinwardly wicked, they were still the authority. They still had the right and the authority to teach in the name of God. He says they sit in the seat of Moses. Now in the church, when he sets up teachers,

54:17Jay Dyerwe have a history of people who descend from those apostles and who have a consistent doctrine,

54:24Jay DyerAnd they have the authority to do that. And I'm saying that if you don't recognize that,

54:28Jay Dyerhe that is not with me scatters

54:31Jay Dyerabroad, Jesus says.

54:32Jay DyerThat's the danger here. I'm not trying to call you out specifically and say you're a bad person. I'm just saying that the danger for anybody,

54:38Jay Dyerme included or anyone, is that if we're not gathering with Christ, we're scattering abroad.

54:44Jay DyerAnd that's why there has to be objective ways to delineate between a cult and a true religion and a false religion.

54:52Mike LowryOkay. What are then can you tell me what is the way to delineate between a cult and a true religion?

55:00Jay DyerOne easy way is history. Right? Because we know Jesus set up something in history. Right? He didn't set up a thing that I believe was destined to fail. We just saw in the Matthew 16 text that he said that the gates of hell wouldn't prevail against what he's setting up. Now I would say

55:16Mike LowryCan you clarify what that means before we move on? What does it mean that the gates of hell will not prevail against?

55:21Jay DyerThe gates of hell, Satan's kingdom, would not be able to destroy Christ's kingdom.

55:26Mike LowryNow wait a minute. Do gates

55:28Mike Lowrydestroy people?

55:30Jay DyerGates is a reference in the Old Testament to either angelic forces or to actual gates. Right? So that many places in the Psalms, David refers to the gates as the angelic powers in heaven.

55:41Jay DyerSo a gate is can mean can mean different things in different senses. But

55:45Mike LowryTo me to me hold let's let's what do you think of this? Hold on. To me

55:49Jay DyerYeah. Hold on. Hold on. Daniel two look. It let's make this real easy. Daniel two Alright. Daniel seven,

55:55Jay DyerDaniel nine,

55:56Jay Dyeras well as many places in the Psalms. I've got a whole I can list them if you want right now. There's all of these predictions throughout the prophets, throughout the Psalms, all the way back to Abraham that when the Messiah comes, one of the key signs

56:09Jay Dyerthat we'll all know that the Messiah is here

56:12Jay Dyeris that we will begin to see the conversion of the Gentile nations to worshiping the God of Israel. Now there's literally dozens of passages just in the Psalms

56:20Jay Dyerabout when the messiah is here, we will all know it will be a public fulfillment.

56:25Jay DyerThe whole world will see because these pagan nations will begin to convert to the worship of the god of Israel.

56:31Jay DyerYes. Guess what? That happened when Jesus came.

56:35Jay DyerPentecost opens the church. No. You keep saying yes, but you don't actually affirm that because you don't believe

56:41Jay Dyerwhat the people who at that time converted out of those nations believed. You believe the opposite of them. All of those people believe what we say. They believe in the trinity. They believe in the incarnation. They believe in the resurrection. They believed in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

56:54Jay DyerAll of those doctrines that the church fathers teach,

56:57Jay Dyerright, that is the fulfillment

57:00Jay Dyerof those prophecies

57:02Jay Dyerof the Gentile nations converting to the kingdom of God to be grafted into this one kingdom.

57:08Jay DyerSo if you admit that those are prophecies of the conversion of the Gentiles,

57:13Jay Dyeryou have to accept that that's what happened in history, and that means that those people that converted are correct. And they believed what we believe.

57:21Mike LowryIt doesn't ipso

57:22Mike Lowryfacto

57:23Mike Lowrymean that they were correct in everything.

57:26Mike LowryIt just means that they were effective.

57:28Jay DyerDon't have anything in common with them.

57:31Mike LowryYes. I do.

57:32Jay DyerNo. You don't.

57:33Mike LowryYeah. Almost everything you just said, I agree with.

57:37Jay DyerIf you reinterpret

57:38Jay Dyerall of the words, it doesn't matter. You don't mean it in the sense that we mean You don't believe in

57:43Mike Lowrythe We have small disagreements,

57:46Mike Lowrybut you just said I don't agree with anything and that's

57:47Jay Dyernot true. You don't believe in the trinity, you're not part of

57:50Mike Lowryus. I do believe in the trinity.

57:52Jay DyerYeah. But you've redefined it to not mean what we mean.

57:55Mike LowryWell, so then we have a small disagreement of terms.

57:58Jay DyerNot a small disagreement. That's why all the totality

58:01Jay Dyeris in the Orthodox Church. It's not a small disagreement.

58:04MnestheusWhy we why we drill down right there into the trinity because it is such a central,

58:09Mnestheusit is possibly the central theological issue.

58:12MnestheusAnd I'd like, Mike, for you to

58:14Mike LowryGreat idea.

58:14MnestheusIf you can, as brief as briefly as possible,

58:17Mnestheusprovide the Urantian

58:19Mnestheusperspective on the trinity.

58:20MnestheusAnd Jay, please then dismantle or square it away with orthodoxy.

58:26Mike LowryOkay.

58:28Mike LowryThe

58:30Mike LowryUrantia concept is

58:32Mike Lowryunderstanding that God,

58:34Mike Lowrythe absolute deity,

58:36Mike Lowryis a unified

58:38Mike Lowrybeing.

58:39Mike LowryHe is the totality

58:41Mike Lowryof

58:42Mike Lowryall there is, beginning to the end.

58:45Mike LowryHe's outside and transcending time and space.

58:48Mike LowryHe transcends personality even. He's prepersonal and superpersonal.

58:52Mike LowryHe is the absolute supreme

58:55Mike Lowryinfinite

58:56Mike Lowryaspect.

59:00Mike LowryFrom that

59:01Mike Lowryin form, we experience God in a triune manifestation,

59:06Mike Lowryfirst through the father, and then through the subsequent

59:09Mike Lowrycoordinated aspects,

59:11Mike Lowrythe son and the spirit.

59:12Mike LowryThe father being the unified

59:15Mike Lowryspirit

59:16Mike Lowryfather of all creation,

59:18Mike Lowrythe son being the vehicle through which the father creates, and the spirit being the conjoint actor through which father creates.

59:25Mike LowryThe father creates through the son and the spirit. The spirit is the influencing force of the father.

59:31Mike LowryThe son is the

59:33Mike Lowrypositive acting

59:35Mike Lowrycreative force.

59:36Mike LowryThe ruling controlling aspect of the father's spirit.

59:40Mike LowrySo a son of God is a creative aspect of the father's spirit.

59:47Mike LowryThat is a

59:49Mike Lowryconceptualization

59:50Mike Lowryconcept, I don't know, I'm putting it out there that way, this is sort of the type of language that the URANTIA book uses. It dedicates

59:58Mike Lowrymany thousands of words to fleshing this concept out, and I just really paraphrased it.

1:00:04Mike LowryAnd

1:00:05Mike Lowrybut I think that's good enough.

1:00:06MnestheusSo is

1:00:08Mnestheusgood. Thanks, Mike. Okay. It's tight.

1:00:12Jay DyerSo I think some of what he said we would agree with. I don't know if some of those kind of, loaded I don't I'm not saying he's being bad or disingenuous,

1:00:22Jay Dyerbut some of the terms that he use are kinda vague.

1:00:24Jay DyerYou know, we have pre precise terms.

1:00:26MnestheusThey def they they definite definitely need definition. There's there's new jargon being used in your answer.

1:00:32Jay DyerSo Let me just put it this way. Like, I we're I'm gonna agree with the way the Nicene Creed talks about. We believe in one God, the father almighty, maker of heaven and earth. The son is eternally generated from him,

1:00:42Jay Dyerand the holy spirit is eternally processed from the father.

1:00:46Jay DyerWe believe that there's one nature in god, that there's only one god because of that communion of nature from the father

1:00:53Jay Dyerconveyed to the son and to the spirit as Black Renee says. So I mean, just simply put, that's the triune god. Right? Father, son, and holy spirit.

1:01:02Jay DyerI agree with him that, you know, that the son has a role in creation and all that. Sure. But the problem is that in our view and by the way, a lot of what he talked about is, I think, kind of

1:01:14Jay Dyerpartial

1:01:14Jay Dyerparceled out from what our church fathers teach because we know that this comes from Athanasius,

1:01:20Jay Dyercomes from the Cappadocians,

1:01:21Jay Dyerespecially at Constantinople

1:01:22Jay Dyerone. They're the most important

1:01:24Jay DyerTrinitarian theologians,

1:01:26Jay DyerBezal,

1:01:27Jay DyerGregory, and Gregory. So if we read those guys, we get a better handle on what,

1:01:32Jay Dyerthe Trinity is in in the orthodox conception.

1:01:35Jay DyerSo there's pieces of what he said that we would agree with, but, my concern is that

1:01:40Jay Dyeryou can't do that Trinitarian theology apart from the incarnation.

1:01:45Jay DyerAnd so for us, the second person of the godhead, Jesus, right, took human nature and assumed it and was born of the Virgin Mary, and he did that for a specific purpose again that's prophesied in all these messianic prophecies when you take them in a holistic context. You look at all of them from the time of Genesis

1:02:02Jay Dyerinto Exodus,

1:02:04Jay Dyerinto the Psalms,

1:02:05Jay Dyerup into the major and minor prophets. We see so many places where the work of the Messiah, Isaiah 53, this kind of stuff is predicted.

1:02:12Jay DyerAnd then the ministry of Christ is situated

1:02:15Jay Dyerthere in between all of these old testament predictions

1:02:18Jay Dyerand the completion that comes with the new testament. Now just to cut through all of this really quickly,

1:02:25Jay Dyerwe have a historical testimony and a basis to know what the Bible is, what the New Testament is, why the New Testament text should be accepted.

1:02:34Jay DyerAnybody else out there in a Protestant group,

1:02:37Jay Dyeror in our friend Mike's group, they're gonna have to rely by default on the Orthodox Church and her her historic testimony as to what the biblical canon is. So I'm just gonna make it real simple and say that

1:02:50Jay DyerMike doesn't have any way to actually know what the Bible is without the testimony and tradition of the Orthodox Church. And if he's gonna have to go to that to know that, for example, Matthew is a gospel because it it's doesn't identify its author. He's gonna admit that there's a world tradition, then it's gonna be the oral tradition that we have that we use to put the bible canon together.

1:03:10Jay DyerSo in that sense, I would say we have a way to delineate, first of all, with scripture, not just scripture, but with scripture,

1:03:18Jay Dyertrue and false religion.

1:03:20Jay DyerAnd if Mike is gonna have to listen to us in some degree about the Canada scripture,

1:03:24Jay Dyerthen by default, just like every other heretic out there, you can't list you can't reject the rest of what we say about what the scripture means because it comes from us. It comes from our liturgical milieu.

1:03:38Jay DyerIt's really not

1:03:39MnestheusI'd to I'd like to throw in there that, Mike has

1:03:42Mnestheusthe wild card,

1:03:44Mnestheuswhich is that Yauraventia is from angels.

1:03:47MnestheusBut that comes with,

1:03:49Mnestheusthe

1:03:50Mnestheusthe cost that if it's from angels, it needs to be angelically coherent.

1:03:55MnestheusIt needs

1:03:55Jay Dyerto How do you know it's not demons? I would say that the book

1:03:59Jay Dyeris demonic.

1:04:00MnestheusA lot of people have said that in the comments as well. It's a good question. How do you know?

1:04:05Mike LowryOkay.

1:04:07Mike LowryFirst, I wanna address what Jay just said, which is that I have to come to the church

1:04:12Mike Lowryto

1:04:13Mike Lowryget a concept of what the Bible is,

1:04:15Mike Lowrybut I don't accept what the church says that the Bible is. The church says that the Bible is inerrant,

1:04:21Mike Lowrythat it is inspired,

1:04:22Mike Lowrythat everything in it is true and accurate.

1:04:24Jay DyerBut you've been And I

1:04:25Mike Lowrydon't accept.

1:04:27Mike LowryWell, that doesn't I can appeal to Shakespeare or Mark Twain as well, but it doesn't mean everything that's in there.

1:04:32Jay DyerYou said that you believe the sections in Matthew.

1:04:37Mike LowryI referred to them

1:04:39Mike Lowryfor

1:04:41Mike Lowryconceptual

1:04:42Mnestheusreject them totally by your answers.

1:04:44Mike LowryI don't reject them right or

1:04:45Jay DyerHow do you know

1:04:46Jay Dyerwhat what is your epist what is your epistemic standard to pick and choose what aspects of the bible you accept and don't accept? And you're gonna say the Origen book.

1:04:55Jay DyerYeah. Okay. So you have a presupposition that that was given to you by angels. Now so we have two competing narratives. Right? Paul says, don't believe any other gospel is demonic unless it's the gospel that I gave you.

1:05:06Jay DyerOur church Interesting. Right? Right. Yeah.

1:05:08MnestheusOur The church church just says don't believe Paul.

1:05:11Mike LowryI'm telling you Paul is the original error maker.

1:05:14Jay DyerBut

1:05:15Mike LowryPaul He teaches what spun us away from

1:05:17Mike LowryChrist's gospel to his gospel.

1:05:20Mike LowryNo. He teaches something slightly different. No.

1:05:22Jay DyerNo. Well,

1:05:23Jay Dyerright. So what I'm asking you is very simple. What is the epistemic criteria for you to know that the Urantia book is correct and the Bible's not?

1:05:32Mike LowryThere isn't any. It's

1:05:33Jay Dyernot epistemic. You don't have an argument. Thank you.

1:05:36Mike LowryWell, I'm not If there's no argument

1:05:39Jay Dyerfor your position, then you can't do apologetics.

1:05:41Mike LowryI'm not trying to do apologetics either. I'm just examining the differences in our theology

1:05:48Mike Lowryfor the sake of, you know, creative and critical thinking,

1:05:52Mike Lowryand personal experience.

1:05:54MnestheusMike is very welcoming of you, absolutely tearing his ideas apart. So a

1:06:00Mnestheusclear understanding of what the ideas are that need to be, torn apart. And I think having that historical perspective is incredibly valuable and it is what

1:06:08Jay DyerSo I mean, we've I don't know how how much more I can, restate the fact that if he doesn't have a way to judge between a Mormon claim or

1:06:19Jay Dyersome other cult's claim, then he has no basis to believe in his own position beyond his own subjective appeals and what he likes. That's not an argument.

1:06:27Jay DyerArgument simply means

1:06:29Mnestheushas commonality with, all of Protestantism is that, you know, it doesn't have that anchor through history

1:06:34Mnestheusof the traditional church to say this is, you know We can we can trace the traditions and the sacraments

1:06:41Mnestheusof Orthodoxy all the way back.

1:06:44MnestheusAnd and everything that's come since Martin Luther is just making shit up as they go along,

1:06:50Mnestheusand trying to figure it out. And, Urantia certainly seems to fit into that, of course,

1:06:55Mnestheusyour presupposition that it's angelic is correct.

1:06:58MnestheusBut I I wanna hover on this question of the the the demon aspect.

1:07:03MnestheusHow do you know that it's not a demon if if you don't have

1:07:09Mnestheusan an

1:07:10Mnestheusan objective frame from which to judge, how do you know that what you're being led by in your answer is not demonic?

1:07:19Mike LowryAre you asking me that question, James?

1:07:20MnestheusYeah. Yeah. Yeah. I am. Yeah.

1:07:25Mike LowryHow do I know that it's not demonic?

1:07:29MnestheusAnd and a few people have said it, you know, to you as well.

1:07:32MnestheusHad that instinct about it or or read it a bit

1:07:35Mike LowryWell, thing is here's warned

1:07:37Mnestheusyou that this is what it is.

1:07:38Mike LowryMy experience

1:07:40Mike Lowrywith what demonic means

1:07:42Mike Lowryis this.

1:07:44Mike LowryThere is a

1:07:46Mike Lowryvampiric force

1:07:47Mike Lowryon the planet

1:07:49Mike Lowrythat has existed here for a long, long time,

1:07:53Mike LowryAnd it's all about creating a

1:07:57Mike Lowryspirit of rebellion against the Father's will.

1:08:01Mike LowrySo what

1:08:03Mike Lowryit tells you is that everything's all about you,

1:08:06Mike Lowrythat your actions

1:08:07Mike Lowryand the consequences of those don't matter,

1:08:10Mike Lowrythat when you die, it's just over.

1:08:13Jay DyerOkay. So everything that you just said, any cult could say those same things.

1:08:18Jay DyerSo we need an objective way to judge between

1:08:22Jay Dyertwo five fifty cults.

1:08:25Mike LowryIt's okay if you wanna interrupt my answer, but this this is the way that I

1:08:28Jay Dyeranswer the question. If you're not gonna answer the questions, then I'm just gonna repeat what the specific question is. This is the third time I've asked it.

1:08:36Mike LowryWell, and I keep I'm telling you that if you want to understand demonic versus angelic,

1:08:41Mike Lowryand you want to appeal to history and appeal to church tradition to inform your understanding

1:08:46Jay DyerOh, I appeal to spiritual

1:08:49Mike LowryI appeal to a spiritual experience first. I appeal to goddess.

1:08:52Jay DyerIs not objective, and which can't delineate between true and false. So that's why it doesn't work. An invalid argument. It's a subjective argument.

1:09:01MnestheusDo you do you think

1:09:04Mnestheusindividuals are Look, j incapable of delineating

1:09:06Mnestheusany truth from falsehood, j?

1:09:08Jay DyerYeah.

1:09:09Jay DyerCan you repeat that?

1:09:11MnestheusDo do you think individuals

1:09:13Mnestheusare universally

1:09:14Mnestheusincapable of delineating

1:09:16Mnestheustruth from falsehood?

1:09:18MnestheusThat seemed it just seemed implicit in what you No.

1:09:20Jay DyerOf course not. What

1:09:21Mnestheusyou just argued.

1:09:23Mike LowryRight. Yeah.

1:09:24MnestheusSo The appeal so so some people could get

1:09:27Mnestheusyeah.

1:09:27Jay DyerI mean, this is a really simple point about the appeal to a subjective experience

1:09:31Jay Dyerdoesn't prove in an objective normative public way anything.

1:09:35Jay DyerI mean, again, I could I if I'm talking to a Mormon, if I'm talking to to a Jehovah's Witness, then I need an objective way to delineate the truth and the falsehood here. And you already categorized religion as relativistic when you said that religion doesn't have to do with epistemology and objective truth. Well, Jesus is the logos according to John one, so all truth ultimately comes back to him. I am the way, the truth, and the life. So it's totally wrong, first of all, to say that religion doesn't have anything to do with epistemology and objective truth. Your whole thing is built on your subjective personal experience. Now I'm not saying that everything about a subjective experience is wrong. I'm not saying that you haven't been sincere in seeking god. I don't know. I'm not here to judge you in terms of your inner disposition, but that's why we have objective public rules and dogma is so that we have a way to judge between truth and false so that we're not deceived.

1:10:30Mike LowrySo your main concern is to just not be deceived by demons?

1:10:35Jay DyerIf I were to ask, how do I know the difference between your group and a Mormon cult?

1:10:40Jay DyerIf they say two conflicting things, they can't both be correct. That's just basic logic.

1:10:46Mike LowryRight.

1:10:47Jay DyerSo what delineates between the two?

1:10:49Mike LowrySo what if we added yours in another three different positions?

1:10:52Jay DyerWell, I'm gonna appeal to an objective standard to delineate between the three.

1:10:56Mike LowryHow do

1:10:56Jay Dyeryou there is

1:10:57Mike LowryHow do you know that that's correct in itself? It's just your

1:11:00Jay DyerBecause I'm gonna look at the entire paradigm. I'm gonna look at the entire paradigm and see what can give a standard for

1:11:06Jay Dyerreason, for logic, for evidence, for proof, for all of these things, ethics. So it can't be a subjective appeal.

1:11:14MnestheusAnd and can you, just quickly

1:11:17Mnestheussummarize what your objective standard is ultimately?

1:11:21Jay DyerMy objective standard did that. My objective standard is gonna be the scriptures, the Orthodox Church, and the revealed theology, the revealed faith that we have. That's our ultimate governing presupposition and standard.

1:11:32Jay DyerAnd the re the way that I know that that's true in an epistemic sense is because it's a coherent pure paradigm. It has objective ways to answer these things. Now you may not like it even and agree with it, But if you're going to disagree, what I need to hear is a way to give an account for objective standards. Otherwise, you don't have a response to our position. And, I mean, I'm not trying to be mean, but I'm just saying if you say things like, I'm not here to give an argument. I'm not here to give, an account. I'm just here to say my objective my subjective experience.

1:12:03Jay DyerThat's no good in a debate.

1:12:05MnestheusAnd

1:12:06Mnestheusand, I mean, we're we're not, we're not we're aiming for a Yeah. We're not having a debate.

1:12:11MnestheusFor a learning conference. We knew that we would be

1:12:13Jay Dyerable debate anyway. So it is a debate. If we have two if we have two different world views and paradigms coming to the fore here that that have radically different claims about what the gospel is, You may not want it to be a to be a debate, but I'm laying out the challenge that if your religion can't

1:12:29Jay Dyerdo the domain of epistemology You've

1:12:32Mnestheusyou've got yeah. You've gotta be ready to defend

1:12:35Mnestheusdefend your faith, and it's true. These do these all of these ideas do need to be poked at and tested, and that's that's exactly why we're here.

1:12:42MnestheusI think Mike's gonna get a lot out of this. Aren't you, Mike?

1:12:46Mike LowryWell, I'm what I'm experiencing

1:12:48Mike Lowryis that what you wanna do is

1:12:51Mike Lowryobjectively compare

1:12:54Mike Lowryour ideas and our concepts,

1:12:57Mike Lowryand then decide who has the best ideas and concepts.

1:13:00Jay DyerCorrect.

1:13:02Mike LowryAnd that's

1:13:04Mike Lowrynot

1:13:05Mike Lowryreligion to me. That's theological I'm

1:13:09Jay Dyersorry. When Jesus goes out and debates, even with the people that you admit that he debates with, he argues that he's correct and they're wrong.

1:13:16Mike LowryBut that's not, he wasn't practicing religion by doing that. That's not

1:13:19Jay DyerYou have an arbitrary ad hoc definition of what you think religion is that it doesn't involve debate.

1:13:25Jay DyerHe's debating.

1:13:26MnestheusAnd and also, debate is just a consequence of the fact that there is truth and there is falsehood and and, you know, I think we have a desire to seek truth.

1:13:34Jay DyerHow do you know that's

1:13:35Mnestheusnot a single truth? We

1:13:37Mnestheusinternally debate, you know, when we're grappling with ideas. And when we're when we're, discussing ideas together, we are debating. So debate is implicit to the the pursuit of truth one way or another.

1:13:47Mike LowryObviously.

1:13:48Mike LowryYou know,

1:13:50Mike Lowryit's coming to mind that it was at a certain point Jesus

1:13:54Mike Lowryswitched only to speaking in parables to his disciples,

1:13:58Mike Lowryand it seems to me that

1:14:00Mike Lowryit's extremely useful to do that because again, what he's doing by speaking in parables is he's

1:14:07Mike Lowryspeaking in symbolic ways to teach the meaning behind the thing. It's not the thing itself. It's the individual person who grasps the meaning, who has eyes to see and ears to hear. That person is having a religious experience by finding truth

1:14:23Mike Lowryrevealed through the teaching. Religion is like that. Religion is not Jesus saying, I am this, therefore, this, this, this, and you must thus believe that.

1:14:32Jay DyerMade an ad hoc way definition of what you think religion is, and then and so everything has to conform to the fact that we don't do debate in religion.

1:14:39Jay DyerIt's just simply not Jay,

1:14:41Mnestheuswhat's religion in your in your definition?

1:14:43Jay DyerWorship of the true god in in the strictest sense. So orthodoxy

1:14:47Jay Dyeris the true religion.

1:14:49Jay DyerNow there's a generic sense in which you say it applies to any,

1:14:53Jay Dyeryou know, notion of a deity, any notion of cultic worship.

1:14:57Jay DyerI mean, all of those things relate to religion. But for us, Paul says true religion is, you know, the worshiping and acknowledging one god, the father of our lord Jesus Christ, and by extension, the holy spirit. So religion can't be divorced from the people that gave us the bible from the history of the church and the many, many, many church fathers and saints. We don't cut it off. Right? So there's a lot of protestant presuppositions at work here that

1:15:21Jay Dyerthere's this departure point. And every protestant picks a departure point. Oh, the church was good up until

1:15:27Jay Dyeracts five, acts eight, Paul, acts 15, Constantine.

1:15:31Jay DyerRight? No. Every cult, every heretic does that. And so what we're hearing tonight is a lot of the same kind of

1:15:38Jay Dyeragain, not trying to be mean, but

1:15:41Jay Dyerunwitting

1:15:42Jay Dyerrep repetitions of ancient heresies.

1:15:44Jay DyerSo we have what we have as a holistic thing, and so you can't take these bits and pieces out. I gave multiple examples of predictions

1:15:55Jay Dyerof the Gentile church. Right? And when the Gentile church is here, that would be a key sign to know that the messianic era has arrived.

1:16:03Jay DyerNow he says, well, okay, but I don't have to accept everything that that church taught. Yes. You do. It's the only church. There's one holy Catholic apostolic. It's one body, one lord, one faith, one baptism. It's the one vine. It's the one branch. It's the one Israel

1:16:17Jay Dyerof the New Testament, the spiritual Israel. So outside of that, you have pieces and bits, and you have delusion. I think that I'm not trying to be mean, but what we've heard tonight is a lot of subjective

1:16:27Jay Dyerclaims about why I think this is true because of experience of peace and experience of this or that. And none of those things do any good in terms of determining objectively what's true and false.

1:16:41Mike LowryDid Jay,

1:16:43Mike Lowryif you don't mind, I'd like to ask some personal questions before you go. And we got like thirty

1:16:48Mike Lowryfive minutes left. We normally go to

1:16:49Jay DyerThat's fine. But I mean, if it's gonna turn into a thing where you're looking for a way that you think that I'm, you know, off or psychologically.

1:16:56MnestheusNo. No. Psychologizing.

1:16:57Jay DyerNo. I'm not gonna do

1:17:00MnestheusDon't ask me

1:17:00Jay Dyerabout that.

1:17:01Mike LowryI'm genuinely curious. I'm genuine. I have some genuine curiosity.

1:17:04Jay DyerMean, I'm not I'm not trying to mean it. It's just I don't I don't wanna get mad and and make you mad and get you know, because I I won't stop. I'll just keep going and I'll hammer it

1:17:12Mike Lowryand go

1:17:14Jay Dyerin the direction.

1:17:15MnestheusJay, listen, we're

1:17:17Mnestheusbig believers in reciprocity.

1:17:19MnestheusSo if he punches you, you hit him back as hard as you can. Right?

1:17:23MnestheusLike but if he doesn't, then we just we'll be friendly and we'll, we'll have a good chat.

1:17:28Jay DyerSo, again,

1:17:29Jay DyerI don't know how else to say that if you're if if if there's not gonna be an appeal to something objective,

1:17:37Jay Dyerthen and if it's not a debate,

1:17:39Jay DyerI don't know what else to say. I mean, that seems to me like a a passive aggressive way to skirt the issue of it is a debate. I mean, we have two conflicting

1:17:50Jay Dyertruth claims here, two different paradigms.

1:17:53Jay DyerWhy wouldn't we just say, okay. It's a debate. Who has the better argument?

1:17:56MnestheusYeah. It's a debate. It's a debate. We could agree. It's debate. It's it's certainly become one.

1:18:01MnestheusWe didn't know what it was I gonna

1:18:03Mike Lowrywould personally rather just

1:18:04Mnestheusstructure.

1:18:06Mike LowryI I there's there's so much that we can get out of this conversation if we continue the conversation beyond just

1:18:13Mike LowryI'm winning the debate and you're losing.

1:18:15Jay DyerNo. I'm not here

1:18:16Mike Lowryto I'd rather concede.

1:18:17Jay DyerThat's not

1:18:17Mike Lowrymy I'd rather concede and continue an interesting conversation with you, rather than you continue to tell me that I don't have objective standards to say what I'm saying.

1:18:26Jay DyerNo. You said you don't have an objective standard. That's what you told me.

1:18:29Mike LowryAnd I know. So I've said it, and now you've said it. So now what do we do? Do we move on?

1:18:32Jay DyerOkay. So what I'm trying to point out is that if that's the case, then there's a huge defect in that world view that you have. Because it can't delineate between

1:18:41MnestheusMhmm.

1:18:41Jay DyerCults and non cults.

1:18:44Mike LowryOkay.

1:18:45Mike LowryAnd I've heard you say that too.

1:18:47Jay DyerOkay. So are you gonna address that or we're just gonna skip over that?

1:18:51Mike LowryWell,

1:18:52Mike Lowrythat's something for me to think about.

1:18:55Jay DyerOkay.

1:18:56Jay DyerFair enough.

1:18:57MnestheusCool. Pause for thought. Pause for

1:18:59Mike Lowrythought.

1:18:59MnestheusAnd

1:19:01Mnestheusyou know,

1:19:01Mike Lowrywhat we're

1:19:01Mnestheusalso about, Jay

1:19:03Jay DyerSo yes, you can ask me whatever personal questions. I don't care.

1:19:06MnestheusYeah. We're we're really Champions of the Light is a project really about Christian brotherhood, you know, and and hanging out. And and I really have tried to make

1:19:15Mnestheusa very open,

1:19:17Mnestheussocial network

1:19:18Jay DyerNo. I'm not I'm not trying to be a bit I'm just I do

1:19:21Jay Dyerdebate, it's a debate. That's what that's

1:19:23Mike LowryYeah.

1:19:23MnestheusYeah. Go for it when we're going for it. But I we are also interested in in you, you know. You've you've Sure. Really made yourself very outstanding,

1:19:32Mnestheusin the work that you do. You've been a big influence on a lot of people. I know a lot of guys who have come to Orthodoxy because of your ministry.

1:19:39MnestheusAnd it's a it's a very intellectual

1:19:41Mnestheusand scholarly ministry,

1:19:43Mnestheuswhich is appealing I think to a generation who who have been, looking for that kind of nourishment intellectually.

1:19:50MnestheusYou know, Mike's

1:19:52MnestheusMike's coming at it from a different, vector, but we we really are interested in in, in who you are. So that's that's the only motive, I think, here in turning it to the personal. We're not we're not trying to That's fine. Snipe around the debate aspect.

1:20:05Jay DyerYeah. I mean, I I my background's philosophy. I studied philosophy in undergrad. I've always been involved in apologetics. That's been what I do for, know I mean, that's not the only thing I do, but, you know, I've had a huge, interest in apologetics since 1998,

1:20:19Jay Dyer'99 when I first got into it. So I should get it. Know?

1:20:25Jay DyerWell, thank you. I mean yeah. So that that so when I when I come to these discussions, you know, I approach it in a very just sort of,

1:20:32Jay Dyerat least striving I know nobody can be perfectly objective. That's not humanly possible, but I think that what we try to do in debate is is to try to strive for that. I think a lot of people don't understand that my approach has always been that,

1:20:46Jay DyerI I would actually prefer to be beaten in a debate because I know that

1:20:51Jay Dyerthat's gonna lead me to the truth. And I've I've lost debates. I've lost the, arguments and discussions with people like Perry Robinson. So I I have

1:20:59Jay Dyerhad times of being, you know, humbled. I've been shown that I was wrong. And so that's how I view it. I view it like if we're all committed to the truth and if we're all willing to

1:21:08Jay Dyerbe defeated,

1:21:10Jay Dyerit's not actually about an ego thing. It's not about, you know, who's right and who's wrong. Because if we're all committed to, you know, what's true, then we all ought to want to be wrong if we're wrong. Right? Yeah. Mean, every champion know if we're wrong.

1:21:24MnestheusLooking for that perfect opponent who's just a notch above him. Right? And who can, humble him so he he grows.

1:21:31MnestheusThat's definitely, I think, what Mike and I are about too. We want to know where we're wrong. I I I take a bit of a sitting position in a lot of these conversations, but I I'm an inquirer into orthodoxy, and and you've been part of that, Jay. So, you know, I'm I'm here to,

1:21:47Mnestheussee if we can,

1:21:48Mnestheusyou know, with your,

1:21:50MnestheusI mean, I'm not somebody to represent orthodoxy at all. You know, I'm I'm an ignoramus. I'm really just beginning to learn about it, but I'm I'm very interested in it.

1:21:57MnestheusAnd so somebody like you,

1:22:00Mnestheusyou know, it presents an opportunity having you on here to, give the best representation of orthodoxy to my friend Mike here,

1:22:06Mnestheusto give him pause for thought wherever he needs it to make sure that, you know, he's not foolishly convicted here that that this is if he's right, he wants to be sure that he's right.

1:22:16Jay DyerSo let so my approach is just simply that I've I I believe in a in a very objective kind of logical form of argumentation and and apologetic

1:22:24Jay Dyerprocess.

1:22:26Jay DyerCertainly, we have to internalize it. It has to be personal.

1:22:29Jay DyerBut in the domain of apologetics and discussions of rival face and worldviews and paradigms, it's kind of forced into

1:22:36Jay Dyerthe realm of the objective. So we have to look at logic. We have to look at the laws of logic, the rules of logic, debate.

1:22:43Jay DyerThat's my perception of it. That's how I always approach it. So what I always do is just simply look at a person's paradigm. I look at ethics, epistemology, metaphysics, the three branch of philosophy. I look for a holistic paradigm that can give an account for

1:22:59Jay Dyerthe standards that we need in each of those branches of philosophy. So that is, in the essence, the transcendental argument, the argument that we need a way to give an account for, standards

1:23:10Jay Dyerand ethics, standards and knowledge,

1:23:12Jay Dyerepistemology, numbers, objective,

1:23:14Jay Dyeruniversals, categories, these kinds of things. We need all those we need a way to understand that kind of stuff because that kind of stuff goes into

1:23:23Jay Dyereverything. It goes into how we read the bible. It goes into how we interpret, you know, the things in our life. You know, our subjective experiences are read through that lens

1:23:32Jay Dyerof our paradigm.

1:23:34Jay DyerAnd so my view is that the best apologetic

1:23:37Jay Dyerapproach is to look at the transcendental argument and to question our paradigms and see who has the coherent paradigm.

1:23:46Mike LowrySo

1:23:47Mike Lowrythat's so fascinating. Like, is that how you became a Christian? Like, personal questions I wanna ask is like this. Did you what was it like as a young man? Did you ever go through a time or season in your life of atheism or falling away and having no faith and finding your way back? Were you just did you always have faith? Did it just morph from one style to another?

1:24:07Mike LowryWhen did you determine that now I'm right, and before that I was wrong?

1:24:11Mike LowryAnd like, what was that experience like with for you? Like, I shared a bit about my life. Can you share some about yours? Like, what was your experience like

1:24:19Mike Lowryfinding

1:24:20Mike Lowrythe spirit of truth in your life?

1:24:22Jay DyerWell, I was raised Baptist.

1:24:24Jay DyerWe're kind of a nominal Baptist family. I got more into the Bible when I was 18, sort of going to Bible studies, this kind of stuff. I was Protestant at the time.

1:24:33Jay DyerAnd then that led me into, you know, researching church history. I got into the church fathers eventually. That led me out of Protestantism. I got into Catholicism in my twenties.

1:24:42Jay DyerThat was back before the Internet, so there weren't a whole lot of resources on anything other than just kind of the standard, Protestant Roman Catholic debate. So,

1:24:51Jay Dyerfor most of my twenties, I did that kind of stuff very seriously. And then by the time I was 30, I started having some doubts about wrong Catholicism, started looking at the other church fathers I hadn't read up here, this church father said the,

1:25:06Jay DyerEastern Church Fathers. And then I was introduced to orthodoxy in 2007.

1:25:10Jay DyerI didn't make a a quick jump. I actually went through the catechumen at back then in 2007, but I didn't actually convert.

1:25:17Jay DyerI wasn't convinced at the time. It wasn't right for me at the time to do it. I'm glad that I didn't do it at the time. And so although I never had an atheist period,

1:25:26Jay DyerI had a period where I toyed with, no, maybe Christianity is not true, maybe neo platonism or something like

1:25:33Jay Dyerplatonism is true.

1:25:35Jay DyerSo maybe two or three years, I read a lot of kind of platonic stuff. I went through a lot of Plato's dialogues in the republic, and I toyed with other possibilities.

1:25:45Jay DyerBut, eventually, I got back into the the Eastern Church Fathers

1:25:49Jay Dyeraround two thousand

1:25:51Jay Dyernine, ten, eleven, and then just sort of gradually

1:25:54Jay Dyerworked my way back into to orthodoxy.

1:25:57Jay DyerBut I'd never,

1:26:00Jay Dyeradopted,

1:26:01Mike Lowrylike,

1:26:02Jay Dyeryou know, full on atheism.

1:26:04Jay DyerI always thought that the transcendental argument was was pretty convincing for the existence of God even if I had periods of not, you know, being convinced that the the Christian Trinitarian doctrine I I underwent that well, maybe it's not true. Like, let me look at these other

1:26:19Jay Dyeryou know, I read Perennialist. I read the Platonist, Ganon, you know, all those kinds of characters.

1:26:24Jay DyerAnd, ultimately, no, I came back to,

1:26:26Jay Dyerto orthodoxy through people like Saint Maxim, sick investor, and through father Sarah from Rose, through father, Dimitriarcho Stine, a lot of kind of well known orthodox theologians of the twentieth century.

1:26:37Jay DyerAnd it wasn't just that. It was a lot of getting back into the scriptures, getting back into the

1:26:45Jay Dyermessianic prophecies, studying a lot of the old I I read through the old testament in the last ten years, probably, I don't know, probably 20 times.

1:26:53Jay DyerAnd just the more that I kind of, like, grappled with all those messianic prophecies,

1:26:58Jay Dyerto me, that was really one of the most convincing

1:27:01Jay Dyerpoints was that, you know, you've got dozens and dozens and dozens of predictions of not just the coming of Christ, but, you know, what what this is gonna mean. And if you understand those messianic prophecies in light of the coming of the church,

1:27:16Jay DyerI think it pretty much solidifies the fact. My argument is that, you know, we gotta look to the the church of that first thousand years.

1:27:25Mike LowrySo in in that time and in all of that learning and growing that you did, what would you say

1:27:32Mike Lowrylike, what was it like when you found God within yourself and found that spiritual birth moment in your own life? And what was that like?

1:27:43Jay DyerWell, I don't think there's, like, one point in time. I mean, some people might have a Damascus Road conversion. I know you don't like Paul, but some

1:27:51Jay Dyerpeople might have

1:27:52MnestheusMike Mike still uses that he still uses that term, nevertheless, to describe his own conversion moments. So, you know, he takes it

1:27:59Jay Dyerhe takes it I think that

1:28:01Jay Dyerin one sense, yes, there's a period where we might have a dramatic,

1:28:05Jay Dyeryou know, change out of a a really, you know, sinful lifestyle into something different.

1:28:11Jay DyerAnd that could hap I don't deny that that happens to protestants. I know I underwent a a, you know, a sincere conversion on my part when I was protestant. I didn't know anything, but that happened to me when I was 18. And I don't deny that the grace of god is out there working in people. But what I I I came

1:28:26Jay Dyerto the more that, you know, I went back and back and back in church history was that we we still gotta have these kind of, like, you know, public ways to delineate because I can't just rely on my personal experience. So I'm not trying to set personal experience against

1:28:39Jay Dyerfor us in the Orthodox Church, there's a really deep, you know, mystical theology of Saint Gregory of Palamas, which is all about the direct perception of god. The whole message of the gospel for us is the direct perception through the noose

1:28:53Jay Dyerof the uncreated light of god, and that is the deification process.

1:28:58Jay DyerAnd that is not had is not had in contrast

1:29:02Jay Dyerto the public communal institutional church. It's had in that public communal institutional church. So I would say that the unique aspect of orthodoxy is that it doesn't situate the mysticism

1:29:14Jay Dyeroutside of the the organization.

1:29:17Jay DyerIt's actually within it, and it can only be had within the institutional church. So for me,

1:29:22Jay Dyerit's not been a one overnight thing. It's been a very long process.

1:29:27Mike LowryYou just sparked a question that I don't even know the answer to this. I'll have to think about it too, but I wanna throw it your way to see what you say.

1:29:34Mike LowryIf you if let's say, if we found this thought experiment, I don't have evidence of this, but if we found

1:29:40Mike Lowrythat it was possible for an individual

1:29:43Mike Lowryto engage in that deification process

1:29:45Mike Lowrysincerely

1:29:46Mike Lowryand

1:29:48Mike Lowryeffectively,

1:29:49Mike Lowryif we found that it was just as effective or even

1:29:53Mike Lowrypossible on levels even beyond what is happening in the orthodox

1:29:58Mike Lowryfaith tradition,

1:30:00Mike Lowryif if we found that it was also possible for people who are outside of that faith tradition to have that same experience, to go through that process that you just referred to?

1:30:10Mike LowryWould that discovery,

1:30:11Mike Lowryif we found that it was true,

1:30:13Mike Lowrywould that

1:30:15Mike Lowrychange or negate things that you currently believe about the church?

1:30:20Jay DyerSo within the paradigm that we have, we don't believe that it's possible to

1:30:26Jay Dyerexperience deification

1:30:27Jay Dyerin the proper sense outside of Christ because the purpose of Christ becoming incarnate was to deify the human nature that he assumed. When he deified that human nature that he assumed by his death, burial, resurrection, and then ascension,

1:30:40Jay Dyerwe are participating in that humanity of Christ that he deified

1:30:45Jay Dyervia the Eucharist. The Eucharist is the deified flesh of Christ. It's only in our church. It's not anywhere else. So by definition of what we would say and what our religion is, no. There is no deification outside of the deified body of the God man.

1:31:03Mike LowrySo then are you saying that if we did find out that there is, in fact, deification taking place outside,

1:31:09Mike Lowrythen the church was wrong.

1:31:11Jay DyerOkay. We would have a different idea of what deification is. What I am saying it is is not a subjective,

1:31:17Jay Dyerexperience

1:31:18Jay Dyerit's had outside of the context of the historic church and her dogmas. You're not gonna believe in an anti trinitarian doctrine and anti incarnational doctrine that experienced deification.

1:31:29Jay DyerIt's impossible. So

1:31:34Mike Lowryis

1:31:35Mike Lowryit possible to believe in a Trinitarian

1:31:38Mike Lowryincarnational doctrine

1:31:40Mike Lowryoutside

1:31:41Mike Lowryof orthodoxy?

1:31:43Jay DyerSure. I mean, plenty of people do.

1:31:46Mike LowrySo again, if we had beliefs that didn't, that weren't against

1:31:49Jay Dyerthat, But it's but they not had just

1:31:51Jay Dyernotional, like

1:31:53MnestheusIt's sacramental as well.

1:31:54Jay DyerYou have to be initiated into the church, you have to undergo baptism, you have to undergo the process of participating in these things.

1:32:02Mike LowryI understand that that's the mechanism by which this personal thing happens, right?

1:32:07Mike LowryBut the deification itself is very personal and mystical.

1:32:10MnestheusIs it it

1:32:11Jay Dyerjust the mechanism of the church?

1:32:13Mike LowrySo you're, this is

1:32:14Mnestheuswhat I'm getting at.

1:32:15MnestheusBecause there is a There's mystical

1:32:18Mnestheusa mystical

1:32:19Jay DyerSo aspect to

1:32:21Mike Lowrythis is what I'm getting at. What if, again, just thought experiment, can you do that? What if we found out that that mystical process, that personal process

1:32:30Mike Lowrywas able to be had outside the church? Would

1:32:33Jay Dyerthat change that your for for anarcho.

1:32:35Mike LowryYou're saying it's not, it's not, it's not, but what if in the thought experiment?

1:32:39Jay DyerSo

1:32:40Jay DyerWhat would that mean? That there is no God. What would you do if the thought experiment

1:32:45Mnestheusmean Yeah. It's asked Mike to he has to reject the sacraments and the entire history of the Orthodox Church in order to play that particular thought game. So it's it that gets right back to the presuppositions again.

1:32:58MnestheusIt's a yeah. It's sort of a it's a dead end, that one.

1:33:01Jay DyerSo this is the argument.

1:33:03Mike LowryI I don't think it's a dead end. What I'm trying to do is

1:33:06Mike Lowrydetermine

1:33:08Mike Lowrysomething about how you see things and clarify

1:33:11Mike Lowryfor myself.

1:33:12Jay DyerSo I'm gonna tell you right now, yes, we recognize that there's truth outside the church. Right? There there's truth in other religions. There's people outside the church that know truth and can discover things. But what I'm saying specifically about what we understand deification to be is that, no, that's not possible outside of the God man's body.

1:33:30Jay DyerHow could you be deified if you're not connected to the God man?

1:33:35Mike LowryAnd his body is the church

1:33:37MnestheusThe body is the the Orthodox Church, and that is,

1:33:41Mnestheusthat includes all the sacraments and the church life,

1:33:45Mnestheusand that is the that is actually the definition of

1:33:48Jay DyerThat's the gospel. The gospel is participation.

1:33:51Jay DyerJohn six, you eat his flesh, drink his blood. Right.

1:33:55Jay DyerIt's it's not hard. I mean, is a hard saying because Jesus says that those of you who don't believe what I say in John six and who leave away from me have no part in me.

1:34:06MnestheusAnd and so, Mike, essentially, what you're asking,

1:34:08MnestheusJay here is if everything that orthodoxy teaches is untrue because,

1:34:14Mnestheusdeification is achieved outside of those

1:34:18Mnestheustraditions, and beliefs, and sacraments

1:34:21Jay Dyerif what you're saying is true, then the then orthodoxy is not true. Okay.

1:34:25MnestheusYeah.

1:34:25Mike LowryRight.

1:34:26MnestheusIt can't be both. Yeah.

1:34:27Mike LowryRight. It can't be both. Exactly. So if we discovered

1:34:30Mike Lowrythat there is a way

1:34:32Mike Lowryto experience

1:34:33Mike Lowryand undergo that mystical unification

1:34:35Mike Lowryoutside of the Orthodox tradition, that would therefore mean that the orthodox tradition all along wasn't actually the body. The body would be something else other than the orthodox tradition.

1:34:46Jay DyerYeah. But I'm gonna have an objective way to delineate between the true and the false experiences, so I'm not gonna listen to your rancher demons telling me this when I already know what the true religion is.

1:34:56Jay DyerBecause I have an objective way to delineate between the two.

1:35:00Mike LowryMhmm.

1:35:01Mike LowryFantastic. But but if you came across evidence,

1:35:04Mike Lowryright, if you came across evidence that you couldn't refute. Right. That there

1:35:08Mnestheuswas is an intellectually honest man.

1:35:10Jay DyerI'm not an evidentialist.

1:35:11Jay DyerOkay. So the way

1:35:14Jay Dyerthat I view paradigms is that all evidences are interpreted within the matrix of the paradigm from which we come. So there's no neutral thing that you're gonna put forth and say, here's a dude who saw,

1:35:25Jay Dyeryou know, an angel talking to him and told him what was really going on, and he really experienced this. And so, you know, there's your wrench for you, bro.

1:35:36Mike LowryWild wild take here. What if Christ himself came to you

1:35:41Mike Lowryand told you otherwise Already currently believe?

1:35:45Jay DyerJesus

1:35:45Jay Dyercame in accord with what was written in the Old Testament. We already have that body of doctrines in the New Testament. It's a complete revelation.

1:35:55Jay DyerThat world tradition

1:35:56Jay Dyerthat's also passed into their successors.

1:35:59Jay DyerI can go and read right up here in these books

1:36:02Jay Dyerthe guys right after Jesus who carried on his mission, and they have the authority to do that. And the all of that so right there, by default,

1:36:11Jay Dyerall the cults are canceled out. You, Mormons, JWs, you're all canceled out.

1:36:18Mike LowrySo that's the answer you would give to Jesus if he told you?

1:36:21Jay DyerIt's that simple. That's not Jesus.

1:36:23Mike LowryNo. I'm asking you, is that what you would say to Jesus if he

1:36:26Jay DyerI could go right now to a bunch of channelers in different cults and they say they channel Jesus.

1:36:32Jay DyerThat's not Jesus.

1:36:35Mike LowryIf you met actual Jesus.

1:36:38Jay DyerIt's not actual Jesus if it's telling me different than this religion.

1:36:44Mike LowryThat would that would be your answer to Jesus if you met him and he said to you

1:36:48MnestheusSo so if a guy shows up looking like Jesus and he says that orthodoxy is wrong, then, naturally Jay is gonna be doubtful.

1:36:55Mike LowryRight.

1:36:55MnestheusI wonder if I wonder if the thought experiments are getting a little tiresome. What do you guys think?

1:37:00Jay DyerYeah. I mean, the the thought experiment is intended to get me to deny my paradigm and it's not gonna work.

1:37:08Mike LowryWell, it's it's

1:37:14Mike Lowryit's aiming at your paradigm is

1:37:17Mike Lowryyour paradigm.

1:37:19Mike LowryIt's you. No. It's You are the subjective element in your paradigm.

1:37:22Jay DyerThat's a fault that's a

1:37:24Jay Dyernon sequitur.

1:37:26Jay DyerThe fact that I have my paradigm does not mean that my paradigm is purely subjective.

1:37:32Mike LowryAnd

1:37:34Mike Lowryhow so? Aren't you

1:37:36Jay DyerBecause everybody has a paradigm, and not every element of a paradigm is subjective.

1:37:40Jay DyerI believe in objective standards of ethics, epistemology, metaphysics. I can give an account for those things.

1:37:46Mike LowryBut you just said I believe

1:37:48Mike Lowryin these things, and I can give an account that's satisfactory to you, and maybe also to others, but So

1:37:54Jay Dyerif I say that I

1:37:55Mike Lowrybelieve

1:37:56Mike Lowryexperience Probably. In believing that

1:37:58Jay Dyerthat I'm says not trying be mean to you, but this is really a a, like, a low level misunderstanding.

1:38:04Jay DyerIf I say that I believe one plus one is two, does that mean that it's only subjectively true that one plus one is two?

1:38:11Jay DyerSomething can Doesn't

1:38:12Mike Lowrymean that it's doesn't mean that it's only subjectively true.

1:38:14Jay DyerOkay. Thank you. So right. So not everything in a paradigm is purely subjective.

1:38:20Mike LowryCorrect.

1:38:22Jay DyerOkay. So that refutes what you just

1:38:24Mike Lowrysaid.

1:38:26Mike LowryIt's

1:38:29Jay DyerThe fact that I said it's my paradigm does not mean that it's purely subjective.

1:38:33MnestheusIt's also a shared paradigm.

1:38:36Mike LowryYeah. That's

1:38:37Mike Lowrythat's a good point.

1:38:39Mike LowrySo is your paradigm as rock solid as one plus one equals two?

1:38:43Jay DyerI believe so. Yeah. I I in fact, I actually think that

1:38:46Mike LowryYou believe so.

1:38:47MnestheusThe trinity It precedes

1:38:49Mnestheusmathematics.

1:38:51Jay DyerI actually think that the trinity is the ground of mathematics.

1:38:55MnestheusYeah.

1:38:58Mike LowryThe Trinity is the ground of math fascinating. Incredible. Okay.

1:39:02MnestheusRight at the end of the show, he drops out on us. Like, there's a rabbit hole to to spend some time in. I love that.

1:39:09Jay DyerWell, I'll be glad to come back. We can I can come back and do that kind of discussion if we want to sometime?

1:39:14MnestheusThat yeah. That'd be epic. Cool. That'd be really good.

1:39:18Mike LowryBoy, well, if I'm feeling like two versus one here, I don't wanna do any more thought experiments, but they have an intention behind them that what I'm aiming at is the concept that there's

1:39:28Mike Lowryreligion and there's the religionist.

1:39:30Mike LowryIt's the person who's having the experience. A spirit connection is a one to one connection.

1:39:36Mike LowryI'm explaining my paradigm here, okay? And again, if there's a disagreement, that's fine.

1:39:41Mike LowryBut in my paradigm,

1:39:43Mike Lowrythe way I see it is that we are children of God

1:39:47Mike Lowryindividually.

1:39:48Mike LowryHe is individually

1:39:49Mike Lowryinterested in each of us. We are

1:39:52Mike Lowrymaterial born

1:39:54Mike Lowrymortal creatures.

1:39:55Mike LowryWe have a mind access to God. That's where he connects with us spiritually.

1:39:59Mike LowrySo it's the spiritual connection one to one, it's personal. It's personal and subjective.

1:40:06Mike LowryThere's an objective reality,

1:40:08Mike Lowrybut the reality itself of even the existence of the universe is quite mysterious and quite beyond

1:40:13Mike Lowrymaterial conceptualization.

1:40:16Mike LowryWe get understanding of it through revelation,

1:40:19Mike Lowryand we have understanding of it through personal experience.

1:40:22Mike LowryBut all of that, at the end of the day, it's you experiencing it. It's you finding your way to mathematical understanding.

1:40:29Mike LowryIt's you comparing one thing to another. It's you learning about one plus one equals two. It's you seeing the universe through your eyes, and it's you connecting to God in your spirit.

1:40:39Mike LowryAnd so

1:40:40Mike Lowryreligion

1:40:41Mike Lowryhas a outward manifestation in the body of the brotherhood of the religionists,

1:40:46Mike Lowrybut that is all facilitated by each individual religionist,

1:40:50Mike Lowrythe person himself.

1:40:52Mike LowryAnd

1:40:53Mike Lowryit's a collective of individual experiences of God.

1:40:57Mike LowryGod is objectively real,

1:40:59Mike Lowryand each of us being a different vehicle for his spirit has a slightly different experience

1:41:05Mike Lowrybased on

1:41:07Mike Lowrythe condition and circumstance of our vehicle.

1:41:10Mike LowryAnd

1:41:12Mike Lowryto that degree,

1:41:14Mike Lowrythis is what I'm trying to aim at here is

1:41:16Mike Lowrywe can argue about the history of the church and the authenticity or authority of the scriptures and things like that.

1:41:24Mike LowryBut to me, what matters is how does that end up coming down to affect you as a person? And what kind of spiritual connection is that creating for you? Because to me, that's what religion is at the end of the day. It's not a formulation of ideas and beliefs about concepts and historical facts,

1:41:39Mike Lowryor it's not an association with a particular institution,

1:41:43Mike Lowryit's

1:41:44Mike Lowrywhat

1:41:45Mike Lowrydoes that do for you as a child of God? The purpose of life, the reason he created us as children is for that connection.

1:41:53Mike LowrySo all of it at the end comes down to

1:41:56Mike Lowryrestoring

1:41:57Mike Lowryhis connection with his children.

1:41:59Mike LowryAnd so when that connection is made, there's an effect there, and so I'm looking for that effect

1:42:04Mike Lowryin you through this religion that you're telling us about.

1:42:08Jay DyerI would say everything that you just said is completely

1:42:10Jay Dyernon sequitur, doesn't follow, is based on subjective

1:42:14Jay Dyerfeeling,

1:42:15Jay Dyerisn't isn't objective,

1:42:17Jay Dyerand doesn't get us anything really.

1:42:22Mike LowryNo, man. Amazing.

1:42:24MnestheusNo. Amazing. Just no,

1:42:26Jay Dyerbro.

1:42:27Jay DyerAmazing.

1:42:28Jay DyerI I mean, basically, we had a two hour discussion for you to repeat all of the things that I've already addressed. So

1:42:35Mike LowryOkay, well, that tells us

1:42:37Mike Lowrywhat we need to know about Jay Dyer. That was fantastic

1:42:41Mike Lowryright there, that ending was amazing. I think that's just sort of like the

1:42:45Mike Lowryvalley between us is that

1:42:48Mike Lowryyou don't care about that. And I do.

1:42:51Mike LowryThat's that's that's so interesting.

1:42:53Jay DyerWell, yeah. That's a great virtue signal. I'll give you some points for that. But

1:42:57Jay DyerI'm here I'm here to discuss the, you know, objective principles and arguments. And if you're not gonna address that, then

1:43:04Jay DyerI don't know what else to say.

1:43:05MnestheusWell well, we've got about eight minutes left, so I reckon it's a great time to address,

1:43:10Mnestheusthe few, super chats that we have here and to open the lemon chest, which is,

1:43:15Mnestheuslooking extremely

1:43:16Mnestheushefty,

1:43:17Mnestheusmy friends, for us. There's there's over 600 lemons today, so that's a that's a good day on deal. I'll over there and, get get your clicking fingers ready for the lemons.

1:43:28MnestheusThere was a super chat earlier that I have lost in my interface here, but I do remember. I I forget who it was from. It was a $5 donation. Thank you, whoever you were. And the question was, I don't know to whom it was addressed. So both of you can give a very short answer. Was Jesus created?

1:43:46MnestheusJay, you can go first.

1:43:49Jay DyerThe second person of the godhead who is the son of god is uncreated.

1:43:54Jay DyerHe is eternally begotten of the father, but as a divine person, when he assumed the human nature, he in hypostatized

1:44:02Jay Dyerand made that human nature his own and made it personal.

1:44:05Jay DyerSo he is therefore the god man because he has two natures as a divine person.

1:44:10Jay DyerSo there's a a little bit more nuance in orthodox theology that he is created and uncreated in both of those senses.

1:44:18MnestheusCool. Mike, in the same time or less?

1:44:25Mike LowryThe spirit and the son

1:44:27Mike Lowryare coexistent

1:44:29Mike Lowrywith the father,

1:44:30Mike Lowrybut their manifestation

1:44:32Mike Lowryin time, there is a sequence, they come afterward.

1:44:35Mike LowryAnd so technically, they are created through the Father.

1:44:41MnestheusAlright.

1:44:43MnestheusNow, our next You

1:44:44Jay Dyersaid created through the father?

1:44:45MnestheusYep. Cool. You wanna get into it?

1:44:48Mike LowryYeah. In in

1:44:51Mike Lowrymy perception, that's I think I think that's how it is.

1:44:54Jay DyerAnd what what did you say is created through the father? I'm just curious. I missed it.

1:44:58Mike LowryThe son and the spirit, let's say, come into being through the father, and I think that's a synonym for our created.

1:45:04Jay DyerOkay. So you're anti trinitarian. Thank you.

1:45:08Mike LowryIs that right?

1:45:09Jay DyerI mean, I asked that earlier on.

1:45:12Mike LowryThat means that I'm anti Trinitarian?

1:45:15Jay DyerCorrect. If the sun and the spirit are creatures, yes.

1:45:21Mike LowryInteresting. I'll have to think about that some more too.

1:45:24MnestheusAlright. One, tab for next time as well. Our next super chat

1:45:28Mnestheusis from Tanner Terry, $10, thank you, says theology

1:45:31Mnestheuslet's see if there's a question here.

1:45:34Mike LowryA minute. Wait. Before we move on, let me ask you a question while I still have Jay here. He might be able to help me with this.

1:45:40Mike LowryIf the son

1:45:43Mike Lowryis begotten from the father,

1:45:46Mike Lowrywhat is the difference between him being a creature?

1:45:50Mike LowryIs born from the father? What does it what does it mean? Is is the father actually his father? Is he actually the son? If there's a bird

1:45:58Jay DyerWe don't take the creaturely analogies and read temporal causal relations into

1:46:03Jay Dyerthe analogy of causation is an eternal beginning. It's just an analogy. So we don't think that it that the father causes Jesus to have a beginning in time.

1:46:12Jay DyerSo it's an eternal beginning of the father's essence. There's no interposition of will.

1:46:17Jay DyerJesus is not a creature. He's an he's eternally the second person that god had in our view.

1:46:23Jay DyerSo g God is eternally father, Athanasius says. If he is the eternal father. To be eternal father presupposes

1:46:30Jay Dyeran eternal son that he's father of. So Jesus is not a creature.

1:46:36MnestheusThat's a good one. I like that.

1:46:37Mike LowryAmazing. That makes it really

1:46:38Jay DyerIn the beginning was the word, the word was God, the word was with God.

1:46:41Jay DyerThe word was God.

1:46:44MnestheusRight there in John one. Alright. Tenetari comments. Theology is expression of that which can be experienced by all in the life of the Orthodox Church. You cannot have mysticism without theology or theology without mysticism. Do you wanna comment on that, Jay?

1:47:02Jay DyerThat was kinda what I was getting at. Right? You can't

1:47:04Jay Dyerhave mysticism without some

1:47:07Jay Dyerguidelines,

1:47:08Jay Dyersome some structure.

1:47:11Jay DyerAnd the

1:47:12Jay Dyerbrilliant thing about the Orthodox Church is that it's never had a dialectical tension between

1:47:17Jay Dyerthe mystical experience and the sacramental life and theology and dogma of the church. So our most mystical theologians,

1:47:25Jay Dyerlike Saint Gregory Palamas,

1:47:27Jay Dyerare also our most dogmatic theologians.

1:47:33MnestheusCool.

1:47:35Mike LowryThis is not a response to that, but you reminded me in that response that you had brought up the gates of hell, and we were gonna talk about that and we kinda went away.

1:47:43Mike LowryYou had mentioned that it said it means that the church will not fall. Were you referring to a different mention or is that the same thing to you?

1:47:51Jay DyerI I mean, I just think it means that there's no way that Satan's kingdom,

1:47:56Jay Dyerdeath, and hell are gonna prevail against Christ's kingdom, the church.

1:48:01Mike LowryIf they prevail, wouldn't that mean that

1:48:03Mike Lowryif the gates will not stand against Christ's church, doesn't that mean that Christ's church will knock down his gates, setting the captives free?

1:48:11Jay DyerYeah.

1:48:12Jay DyerSure.

1:48:12Mike LowryRight. So it means that it doesn't mean that Christ's church won't fall. It means

1:48:17Mike LowrySatan's

1:48:18Mike Lowrykingdom won't stand.

1:48:20Mike LowryMeans that

1:48:20Jay DyerSatan will fall. It means that the church won't fall because he sent the Holy Spirit to the church to lead it and got into all truth. The Holy Spirit can never lead the church.

1:48:29Jay DyerYou think that it did, by the way. So there's Pentecost, the Holy Spirit comes,

1:48:33Jay Dyerand it left the church. Right? So there's some blackout for you.

1:48:37Mike LowryNo. To me, the church is the body of believers, but not believers in your doctrine.

1:48:42Jay DyerWhere was your church in the third century, the fourth century, the fifth century?

1:48:46Mike LowryIt was all of God's

1:48:48Mike Lowryfaith born son.

1:48:49Jay DyerWas not your cult your cult wasn't there. It's a new cult. Right. There was no a rancher cult that time.

1:48:55Mike LowryRight. The kingdom isn't a cult.

1:48:59Jay DyerWhere was your group in the third, fourth, fifth, sixth century?

1:49:03Mike LowryIt was the Christians.

1:49:05Jay DyerThe Christians are the orthodox Christians. We can read them. They're up here.

1:49:09Jay DyerThey don't believe you're Origen.

1:49:11Jay DyerThey don't believe your cult. It's a simple argument.

1:49:14Mike LowryThey didn't know about it yet. They were going off of Paul, but they had the spirit.

1:49:19Jay DyerSo they're not your church. They're not your cult. They're what we say.

1:49:24Mike LowryNo. They are my church. They just had a different set of beliefs at the time.

1:49:27Jay DyerSo there's a continuity error here. You're not getting the continuity between the Old Testament, the New Testament, and now. No.

1:49:33Mike LowryYou think that having the same spirit means believing all the same details.

1:49:37Jay DyerThey don't you don't have anything in common with them.

1:49:40Mike LowryYes. All of these meanings No. I have a lot of I have

1:49:43Jay Dyerlot of bullshit meanings for terms, and they don't

1:49:46Mike LowryLet's mean let's go. Let's let's go. I have a lot in common with them, and you're saying

1:49:51Jay Dyerthat It doesn't matter how much you have in common because what you don't have in common is

1:49:55Mike LowryWell, then why do you keep saying I don't have

1:49:56Jay Dyeranything in common them? Cult, dude. Because that's why. Because it's obvious.

1:50:01Mike LowryWhat cult am I in?

1:50:04Mike LowryYou're in a cult.

1:50:05Jay DyerYou don't

1:50:06Mike LowryI mean, we could just throw that around.

1:50:08Jay DyerBecause you got demolished on about 20 different points in this discussion where you didn't know basic philosophical concepts. So you're gonna call me in a cult? You you don't have a you don't even have a basis to to delineate between cults, which, by the way, earlier, you admitted you have no way to delineate between that. Now you're saying that I'm in a cult, so you contradicted again.

1:50:28Mike LowryOkay.

1:50:29Mike LowrySo the point is

1:50:31Jay DyerSo you like to contradict. Right? Is that the point?

1:50:34Mike LowryOh my god. You you like to get into

1:50:37Mike Lowrysemantic

1:50:38Mike LowryNo. That's chasing not your own

1:50:39Jay Dyera contradiction is not a semantic.

1:50:41Mike LowryYeah. Okay.

1:50:43Mike LowryYou like to just point out contradictions,

1:50:45Mike Lowrynot stop, instead of getting to the root of the issue.

1:50:48Jay DyerGet literally, I love to.

1:50:49Mike LowryYeah.

1:50:51Mike LowryAlright. But

1:50:52Mike Lowryyou're saying things that aren't true, Jay. You're saying I have nothing in common with them that's not true.

1:50:57Jay DyerNo. I said that

1:50:58Mike Lowryyou don't have nothing

1:51:00Mike Lowryin lost the spirit and that I'm saying that, and I'm not saying that. So you're just wrong. The church never lost

1:51:05Jay Dyerthe spirit. The spirit

1:51:06Mike Lowrywas fostered with the church as as errored as in their dogma and theology as they may have been through certain times of history. The spirit was fostering them You're through those

1:51:16Jay Dyernot confident in any of those people. I don't think you've read any of them.

1:51:19Mike LowryThat doesn't matter.

1:51:21Jay DyerHow are you gonna say that you don't have the same views of them? How you don't even know.

1:51:26Mike LowryI don't even care.

1:51:28Jay DyerThen you can't make that statement.

1:51:30Jay DyerWell, then That's idiotic.

1:51:31Mike LowryYou don't know none

1:51:33Mike Lowryof my views line up. You haven't read the book. You don't know anything about my views other than the tiny bit I

1:51:37Jay Dyershared with you and you're saying I have nothing in common

1:51:39Mike Lowrywith them which is a giant

1:51:40Jay Dyerassumption and wrong. Your views. You just said that you have all of these things in common with people that you've never read.

1:51:48Mike LowryI have the spirit in common with them, and I know that.

1:51:50Jay DyerYou were talking about the doctrines in common with them.

1:51:54Mike LowryWe found some doctrinal similarities already in this conversation.

1:51:58Jay DyerYou just said you haven't read them.

1:52:00Mike LowryBut you said I have nothing in common with them, but then we found

1:52:03Jay Dyersome some

1:52:04Jay Dyersimilarities. Feel sorry for you, bro. I'm not trying to be mean to you. Like, you I don't care

1:52:08Mike Lowryif you feel sorry

1:52:09Jay Dyerfor nonsense.

1:52:10Mike LowryYou're just saying Well, that's your opinion. Well, that's a good way to dodge and continuing the conversation. Demonstrating That's a good way to dodge and jump out of the conversation. I don't care I am making sense.

1:52:19Jay DyerYour passive aggressive soy stuff doesn't work on me, dude.

1:52:21Mike LowryNo. You're

1:52:22Mike LowryI don't care

1:52:23Jay Dyerhow much you'd wanna virtue signal and say you're soft and love and all this kind of stuff. It doesn't matter because what you're saying is total incoherence.

1:52:30Jay DyerYou're talking about people you've never read, but you know that they have the same views as you.

1:52:34Mike LowryThat's crazy. Book you've never read, and you're saying it doesn't line up with them

1:52:38Jay Dyerat why I'm here to talk to you. You're representing your book.

1:52:41Mike LowryAnd I'm here to talk to you because you're representing those people.

1:52:45Jay DyerYeah. And I'm telling you what they believe.

1:52:47Mike LowryAnd I'm telling you that you and I are lining up on things so I don't see why you're

1:52:50Jay Dyerthrowing But out we don't line up on things, dude. You're talking about reading my people that you've not read.

1:52:56Mike LowryAnd you're talking about reading my book that you haven't read because you've

1:52:58Jay Dyermet me. This is this is

1:53:00Mike LowryWe're doing the same exact thing. It's me and you talking to each other but then you're

1:53:04Jay Dyerinvoking dead old people. You're going into t jump level, dude.

1:53:08MnestheusWe we have what

1:53:11Jay Dyera fallacy is. You don't even know why Yeah.

1:53:13Mike LowryLet's please not go into that total like straight Asperger's realm because then we we'll lose all the value.

1:53:19Mike LowryThe thing is

1:53:20MnestheusWell, I'd

1:53:21Jay DyerI'd rather be I'd rather be in Asperger's realm than your gay soy realm. How's that?

1:53:26Mike LowryFair enough.

1:53:27Jay DyerI'm glad you Fair enough, bro.

1:53:29Mike LowryFair enough.

1:53:29Jay DyerYeah. It's always the bald dudes that have an issue with me. Have you noticed that? It's always the bald dudes that wanna come try that way.

1:53:36Jay DyerAngle.

1:53:36Mike LowryI mean

1:53:37Jay DyerAnd they make total clowns. Like, they don't even know what they're talking about. Like, you've literally contradicted probably 20 times in this discussion.

1:53:45Jay DyerThen you wanna you wanna play it off like you wanna play it off like it's Asperger's, dude. You think that works on me? You think I care?

1:53:53Mike LowryNo. I don't think you care.

1:53:54Jay DyerYou have no idea what you're talking about.

1:53:56Mike LowryYeah.

1:53:58Mike LowryThe other

1:54:00Mike Lowryother thing, if I could go back and learn more about you, Jay, what is your career? I'm still not clear on that. What do you do for I

1:54:08Jay Dyerdon't I don't have one. I don't have one. Just being a spurt.

1:54:12Jay DyerIt's just being a spurt. What's your Has it always

1:54:14Mike Lowryhas it always been that? Mhmm. Yeah.

1:54:16MnestheusHey, guys. Let's get back to we're gonna raise No.

1:54:18Jay DyerNo. No.

1:54:18Mike LowryI I really wanna I really wanna know

1:54:20Jay Dyerif we can get more in This is this is ridiculous. This is literally I'm gonna put you up there in the top two dumbest debates I've ever had. But thank you, James.

1:54:27Mike LowryEpic.

1:54:28Jay DyerIt's been a lot

1:54:29Mike Lowryof You're gonna run right

1:54:30Mike Lowryhere. No. No.

1:54:30Jay DyerBecause I'm scared of you. I'm scared of literally the dumbest arguments I've ever heard.

1:54:34Mike LowryAbsolutely. Just one more personal question. One more personal question.

1:54:38Jay DyerI don't do don't I'm not gonna give you the place to do your little soy passive aggressive virtue signal where you try to look like you were the superior better man. Okay. So Anybody anybody who does, anybody who knows anything about what a debate is knows that this was like laughable.

1:54:54Mike LowrySo you don't wanna tell us what kind of guy you are? You wanna just say I'm not gonna tell you what

1:55:00Mike Lowrykind of guy What about everybody else who's listening?

1:55:03Mike LowryYeah.

1:55:04MnestheusHe's out. Who are running?

1:55:06MnestheusYou know, he asked you to he asked you to let it go, Mike, and you didn't let it go. And sometimes That's true. Sometimes you just gotta let it go.