Jay Dyer vs Pedro from Crucible Debate: Sola Scriptura and Protestantism

0:00PedroI'm gonna be honest. I've never heard of the filioque,

0:03Pedrobut if we believe that

0:05Pedrothere is one eternal being of God Can you still hear me, Jay?

0:09Jay DyerYeah. You sound good to me.

0:10PedroPerfect.

0:11PedroOkay. Nice. That's

0:12Jay Dyerway better.

0:14PedroIt's always good for me to have headphones on because if if you're talking right in my ear, I can just listen to all the content and what you're saying better. It's just right there.

0:24Jay DyerYeah. I I probably should do that eventually because I always end up having these issues, but I also don't like the idea of wearing headphones throughout every interview that I do. But

0:35Jay DyerI'm just making sure that we sound good.

0:40PedroK. Yeah.

0:46Jay DyerI probably K. So I need to make sure that your volume is up a little louder.

0:51PedroI got I could turn up the gain.

0:54Jay DyerYeah. You you're a little low. So

0:59PedroHow about

1:00Jay Dyernow?

1:01Jay DyerJust one second. Let me I'll make sure you're fixed.

1:10Jay DyerAlright. Test test.

1:12Jay DyerYou guys ready?

1:16Jay DyerPedro, can you give me a mic check?

1:19PedroMic check 12. 12345.

1:22Jay DyerIs everybody hear mic hear Pedro good?

1:29Jay DyerVolume up.

1:30Jay DyerSo I've got him up all the way.

1:35Jay DyerLet me try that.

1:38Jay DyerGotcha. Okay.

1:39PedroNow closer and closer to the mic until you got me. How about

1:42Jay DyerAlright. Let's yeah. Give me another mic check, Pedro, and let's see if that's good.

1:46PedroTesting. Testing. 12345.

1:58Jay DyerGive it a second to catch up, and we'll see.

2:06Jay DyerIs that is that better, you guys?

2:10Jay DyerBetter? Is it good enough, or do we need do we jack them up more?

2:17Jay DyerSounds good. Pretty good.

2:20Jay DyerTurn your gain up, Pedro. Can you do that? Somebody said. Chase. Chase isn't Chase is an audio guy.

2:28Jay DyerHello.

2:30Jay DyerHello. Much better.

2:32PedroNice. Okay.

2:33Jay DyerCool beans.

2:33PedroMic check 12345.

2:38PedroOkay.

2:42Jay DyerCool beans, dude.

2:44PedroAlright.

2:45Jay DyerAlright everybody, so this is impromptu debate,

2:48Jay Dyerwe didn't plan this and

2:50Jay Dyerwe got to talking the day after the debate that Tristan had with Destiny that we wanted to set up another debate and then Pedro was kind enough to agree.

3:01Jay DyerOf course Pedro is over at The Crucible, which is a new debate channel, which I'm sure everybody kind of probably saw the

3:08Jay DyerTristan Destiny debate,

3:10Jay Dyerand The Crucible was kind enough to have me on

3:13Jay Dyerabout a week or two ago, and we had a good chat over there.

3:17Jay DyerSo I've been looking for a Protestant to come on and present the Protestant. It's actually been about three years since we had a Protestant come on to debate, so. Really? Yeah, props to Pedro for coming on.

3:29Jay DyerI didn't have a chance to put your brief bio in the description,

3:33Jay Dyerbut I'll add that later.

3:35Jay DyerSo if you want to give everybody an introduction to you, then I'm not trying to mess

3:41Jay Dyerwith anything, it's just, so I've been talking for like five hours already today, so my mind is a little mush, but we're still going to power through this.

3:49PedroFor sure, for sure.

3:50Jay DyerSo before we get started, and we're going to do a formal debate, everybody's going be timed, we're going to do the

3:57Jay Dyersetup that Pedro suggested,

3:59Jay DyerI'm going to let him give his brief introduction

4:03Jay Dyerand tell you guys whatever

4:04Jay Dyerhe wants to tell you guys about himself,

4:07Jay Dyerand then we will

4:08Jay Dyerkick it off and let's see, how do we,

4:14Jay Dyerwe have it as

4:16Jay Dyeropening fifteen minutes, Yeah, fifteen, ten, cross examination,

4:20Jay Dyerand then back

4:21Jay Dyerto cross examination,

4:23Jay Dyerand then closing statements.

4:25Jay DyerSo tell us a little bit about yourself and where you're at, what your faith is, and then we'll we'll kick it off.

4:31PedroWell, pretty much, my name is Pedro. I'm a reformed theologian.

4:36PedroPretty much the core of what we believe is that there is a sovereign God who is demonstrating

4:41Pedrohis grace and mercy through the salvation,

4:44Pedroor he's also glorifying himself through the salvation of a particular people through the incarnation of the son and the outpouring of the holy spirit.

4:54PedroI'm a young theologian. I'm very much just jumping in getting my feet wet, so I very much am

5:00Pedrohonored to actually be up against someone of j s. I've seen a lot of his debates,

5:05Pedroand I'm I'm glad he's allowing himself to be, you know, put up to scrutiny against, you know, kind of a dark horse because let's face it.

5:14PedroThe it's like martial arts. If you get to watch somebody else fighting for a while and then they don't know anything about you and then you just come out of the gate,

5:24Pedrothat person who's been able to watch pretty much has the advantage. So that's who I am.

5:29PedroReally, I would very much just like to have a nice discussion.

5:33PedroIt's gonna get knives out. Let's be honest. Knives are out gonna come out at some point. But at the same time, I want to demonstrate how Christian theologians are actually supposed to, you know, carry themselves in the heat of debate. Thank you.

5:46Jay DyerYeah. Excellent. And this is not to put you on the spot, but do you have a

5:52Jay Dyerconfessional church that you attend or is it like just

5:56Jay Dyerclassically Protestant or evangelical or do we

5:59PedroI'm a Southern Baptist

6:00Jay DyerOkay.

6:01PedroIf we wanna say. Okay. And obviously

6:04PedroCalvinist.

6:05PedroI've read most of Calvin work now at this point, but I have not done the, extensive study notes like I do with some of my most books. I have, like I actually took it from Jay to put sticky notes in all my books and write everything up. It's just the way to go. Because when you read a book, I think, you can't just speed and demon, like, go light speed through it. That's not how you learn. You gotta take your time with these things, I

6:28Jay Dyerfeel like. So

6:32Jay Dyerlet's see.

6:33Jay DyerCan you turn that gain back up? Because people are saying it's still too quiet.

6:38PedroGotcha. How

6:40Pedroabout now?

6:41Jay DyerYeah, better.

6:42PedroPerfect, okay.

6:44Jay DyerAlright, so

6:46Jay Dyersince the topic for the night is sola scriptura,

6:50Jay Dyerwe're gonna give Pedro he's gonna have the opening statement in the affirmative that sola scriptura is true and should be believed,

6:57Jay Dyerand I'm gonna set the timer

7:01Jay Dyerand what did we say, fifteen minutes opening?

7:03PedroYes, sir.

7:04Jay DyerOkay. So let me know when you're ready, and I'll hit the timer.

7:08PedroGotcha.

7:10PedroAlright.

7:12Jay DyerSo Andrew said seated? Andrew said get closer to the mic if you can. It's a little soft.

7:16PedroGotcha. Can you see this?

7:17Jay DyerYeah.

7:18PedroPerfect. And let the chat let the chat know and see if they can hear it too.

7:23PedroDoes it sound good, guys?

7:24PedroThat are read from the holy scriptures

7:27Pedroin order to our instruction and salvation,

7:30Pedroit behooves us to hear with earnest heed.

7:33PedroIf those believed afterwards

7:35Pedrowho had killed,

7:37Pedroshould not those believe who for a little while doubted?

7:41PedroAnd yet even in regard of them, a thing which he ought especially

7:46Pedroto observe and to commit to your memory because that which shall make us strong against insidious errors

7:53PedroGod has been pleased to put in the scriptures against which no man dares to speak who in any sort wishes to seem a Christian.

8:03PedroWhen he had given himself

8:05Pedroto be handled by them, that did not suffice him,

8:09Pedrobut he would also confirm

8:11Pedroby means of the scriptures

8:13Pedrothe heart of them that believe.

8:16PedroFor he looked forward to us who should be afterwards

8:19Pedroseeing that in him we have nothing we can handle

8:24Pedrobut have that which we may read.

8:27PedroWhenever there has been turmoil in the church an unfortunate presence of presuppositions

8:33Pedroand assumptions that often go unchallenged

8:35Pedrohave led from minuscule to catastrophic

8:40Pedroactions such as church splits,

8:43Pedroeven violent persecutions

8:45Pedroon both sides of the aisle.

8:47PedroThat fact does not apply anywhere else more than I think when it comes to the issue of sola scriptura. To outline my intention here more clearly in this opening statement, I will be covering two basic objectives

9:00Pedrowhich are one,

9:02Pedrodefining what sola scriptura is, and two, give a response to the common objections usually alleged toward the rule of fate.

9:10PedroThis is so we can move the conversation away from defending concepts and ideas that are contradictory to the actual position we hold,

9:19Pedroand to move forward to our most important goal and actual design of the

9:24Pedroof faith, which is asking the real questions.

9:28PedroWhat tradition

9:29Pedrodo you want to impose on us that we cannot be

9:33Pedrofound in scripture?

9:35PedroBy what standard does the creators of the tradition claim their authority?

9:41PedroIs this practice,

9:42Pedrolaw, rule, doctrine, or dogma contradictory

9:46Pedroto scripture in any way? Let's begin by defining what the doctrine of faith is.

9:53PedroBecause the scriptures are the only example of God breathed revelation in the possession of the church, they therefore

10:00Pedroformed the only infallible standard

10:02Pedroby which every other rule of authority of the church should be tested.

10:08PedroWe come to this conclusion from the apostle Paul in second Timothy three sixteen and the account of Matthew twenty two thirty one,

10:15Pedroperfectly defining scripture as God breathe,

10:19Pedroand that which equips us for every good work.

10:23PedroGod's voice admits no higher or equal authority

10:27Pedroin effect

10:28Pedroto scripture being in fact the ultimate

10:32Pedroauthority

10:33Pedrosubjugating any other.

10:35PedroTo practice sola scriptura in its purest essence is to use scripture as the lens through which you identify traditions,

10:44Pedrorules, laws, and authorities established by man and to discern whether that rule, tradition, law, or authority should be tossed to the fire or affirmed simply based off the question,

10:57Pedrodoes this practice

10:59Pedroauthority

11:00Pedrooppose

11:01PedroGod's word? To make sure we are nailing this to the church door properly,

11:06Pedrolet's take a second to define what sola scriptura is not.

11:11PedroIt is not a denial of God's word at specific times being an oral form during those times of inscription.

11:18PedroIt is not a denial of holy scripture leading and guiding the church. It is surely not the assertion that the bible contains

11:27Pedroall exhaustive knowledge. It is not the assertion

11:31Pedrothat we learn nothing

11:33Pedrofrom the previous generations.

11:35PedroIt is not a denial of authority

11:38Pedroor an assertion

11:39Pedroof the destruction of the church government.

11:42PedroIt is not you, your bible under a tree. Now that you have a understanding of what the rule of faith is and what it is not, please remember to pay attention and train your ears to quickly identify the difference between these two statements throughout this debate. Let us now move into responding to the common objections levied at the feet of the rule of fate starting

12:06Pedrowith when our opponents say we are identifying slash redefining a different meaning of the word from their understanding.

12:15PedroSimply direct them hastily to the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith or, the 1641 Westminster

12:22PedroConfession of Faith version.

12:24PedroAs seen here, that'll show them

12:27Pedrothe only ones redefining our rule of faith concerning this matter is in fact them.

12:33PedroThe next most common and probably crucial argument we knock down is you're placing your faith in a fallible listing of infallible books.

12:42PedroOr how do you know Matthew wrote Matthew without the church?

12:47PedroThe knee jerk reaction should be to immediately switch your mind to defending scripture itself,

12:53Pedronot sola scriptura.

12:55PedroYou are now against someone who has placed their own wisdom above that of scripture.

13:00PedroMove forward to establish

13:02Pedrothese three premises.

13:04PedroThe Bible is a reliable artifact that gives us a fair record of history and whose historical pedigree in terms of written documents of antiquity is unmatched.

13:16PedroIt it it describes Jesus Christ who at the very least, we don't believe this, but who at the very least is a prophet of God.

13:25PedroHe, Jesus, claimed that all he taught was from the father and that he was the truth incarnate.

13:33PedroThis will fall upon the question naturally,

13:36Pedrodid Jesus ever sin? And make no mistake, only the nonbelievers answers yes.

13:42PedroAfter that,

13:43Pedroyou should get the obvious no. You can then point to the obvious outcome as follows.

13:49PedroJesus is in fact God, the light, the word, the flesh, the truth, the only way.

13:56PedroHis view of scripture should therefore in fact be the church's view of scripture.

14:02PedroAnd the Bible is not just an artifact of history,

14:05Pedrobut that of revelation.

14:07PedroGod's revealed will to man on earth

14:10Pedroand as Jesus taught should be considered the very breath of God.

14:15PedroOn these grounds,

14:17Pedrothis basis is where we identify

14:20Pedrothat ontologically

14:21Pedroin the hierarchy of authority,

14:24Pedrowhich dictates doctrine,

14:26Pedroteaching, and rules of faith in and over the church scripture,

14:31Pedroin fact, stands at the principium without equal. If they continue to press the issue, resort to granting it, defeating the argument,

14:40Pedrothen breaking it over your knee like so.

14:45PedroEven if I grant the premise that the church is the reason why I know Matthew is a valid piece of scripture, a part of the canon,

14:53Pedroit does not negate the fact of reality

14:56Pedrothat how scripture came into being

14:59Pedrois part of the plans and purposes of God

15:03Pedrothat no man or organization here on earth can stop because he is in fact sovereign.

15:09PedroMeaning,

15:10Pedrowe both in the hypothetical or outside of it still realize that the holy spirit and his capacity of being part of the godhead having absolute power and total control is using the church, man,

15:24Pedroas an instrument to reveal God's will here on earth in his creation in its written form.

15:31PedroWhen it comes to the Bible,

15:33Pedrothe church should not be boasting over others that we were the ones blessed by God to give the scriptures to the world.

15:42PedroRather,

15:43Pedrothe church should be thankful that God in his sovereign will chose to use this institution

15:49Pedroas the instrument to do so giving

15:52Pedrohim, God, the glory.

15:55PedroExamining the premise on a theological and then material level itself

16:00Pedrojust goes back to some of what I already said in my opening statement and more importantly in God's revealed written

16:07Pedrodecree.

16:08PedroIt was God's intent from the beginning to make himself perfectly known to his people, and not a thing can be done to stop what God intends to do.

16:19PedroAnd then secondly, externally, on an anthropological,

16:22Pedroarchaeological,

16:23Pedroor paleographical

16:24Pedrolevel,

16:25Pedrothe claim that there should be any questioning

16:29Pedroof the content of the validity of Matthew being canon is just inexistent.

16:34PedroTo point out the error as clearly as possible,

16:38Pedromy opponent sources

16:40Pedrotheir certainty

16:41Pedroin institutions of man.

16:43PedroI source mine in the plans and purposes of God.

16:47PedroSimple as.

16:49PedroThey will also say to us,

16:51Pedroyou protestants are not obeying second Thessalonians two fifteen, so you're not actually doing sola or toda scriptura.

16:58PedroAnd your response is simply to be, executing the text and identifying this. The oral component you point to

17:06Pedrois when Paul preached the gospel in Thessalonica

17:10Pedroas stated in acts chapter 17.

17:14PedroThe written component

17:15Pedrois the first letter,

17:18Pedrofirst Thessalonians that Paul wrote to the Thessalonians in Thessalonica,

17:23Pedrowhich also just contains the gospel.

17:26PedroThe onus is on our opponents

17:28Pedroto produce something of credible historical pedigree that teaches what the Thessalonians believed back then is what they believe now. Next we have, what about those in the past who did not have scripture?

17:43PedroAnd this is a little bit stressful, but just answer the question.

17:47PedroWe have always stressed that this is the rule of faith for the normative state of the church today.

17:54PedroNo one denies during the time of inscription when there were those who literally walked

18:00Pedrowith

18:01Pedroand next to Paul, Peter, and Timothy, men carried along by the holy spirit,

18:08Pedrowere practicing sola scriptura. That was never the claim. Then we have the famous sola

18:13Pedroscriptura

18:14Pedrobrought forth, you know, x denominations.

18:18PedroI mean, much clearer

18:21Pedrocan I make this?

18:22PedroSources are used outside of their intended purposes.

18:27PedroThat does not discredit

18:29Pedrothe source.

18:31PedroVery simple. And finally, the most, jaw dropping accusation that's always made, we're rejecting authorities of church government.

18:41PedroStressful. Yes. Indeed. But, sir or ma'am, the reality is sola scriptura is putting God's revealed will over that of the traditions of man. If I need to, I will say it now.

18:55PedroI love the church.

18:57PedroI submit to my elders, and I recognize this document, the bible,

19:02Pedroacknowledges

19:03Pedroand builds up the church as a pillar of the faith,

19:07Pedrobut the pillar never confuses itself with that which which it is holding up,

19:13PedroGod's word. Let me, in my time,

19:15Pedroin my opening statement with a few verses from scripture that we can review in this debate.

19:22PedroOh, man. It's the, famous,

19:24Pedrosecond Timothy three ten through 17

19:26Pedroor only 14 through 17, actually.

19:30PedroIt's a final charge to Timothy.

19:33PedroBut as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of because you know those from whom you learned it and how from infancy you have known the holy scriptures,

19:47Pedrowhich are able to make you wise for your salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

19:53PedroAll scripture is God breathed,

19:55Pedrois useful for teaching,

19:57Pedrorebuking,

19:58Pedrocorrecting,

19:59Pedroand training in righteousness so that the servant of God

20:04Pedromay be thoroughly equipped

20:05Pedrofor every good work.

20:14PedroAlright, sir.

20:16PedroI can now just submit over the remainder of my time. I think I had at least, two minutes left, but I can give it over to you for your opening statement.

20:29Jay DyerYeah. Yeah. There was that was thirteen.

20:32Jay DyerSo

20:36Jay Dyerokay.

20:39Jay DyerLet me set the timer for me here.

20:50PedroOkay.

20:56Jay DyerAlright, so I'm

20:58Jay Dyergoing to I'll get my opening statement, I wrote a bunch of notes about bad arguments that I heard or

21:05Jay Dyernon sequiturs that I heard in his opening statement that we'll address later.

21:10Jay DyerBut for my opening statement, I would argue that

21:14Jay Dyerthe Protestant doctrine of sola scriptura, at least in terms of the classical reformers, is specifically defined as even in the the confessions that he mentioned, which, by the way, the London Baptist confession is actually just a copy and paste

21:26Jay Dyerof the Westminster Confession,

21:28Jay Dyerwhich, by the way, excludes the elements that they didn't like. So particularly infant baptism, which resulted in two supposed churches with a copy and paste confession out of communion with one another over the issue of infant baptism. So the London Baptist confession is not the same faith as the Westminster Baptist Confession, because it's two different groups independent of one another with no continuity or communion,

21:52Jay Dyerand no continuity with anything that existed in the first thousand years of the church,

21:57Jay Dyerexcept perhaps

21:58Jay Dyerelements of followers of Nestorius.

22:01Jay DyerBut aside from that, we'll

22:03Jay Dyertouch on that later, I would say that the doctrine of sola scriptura as outlined by the Protestant classical reformers is that the scriptures are the sole final authority and infallible rule

22:16Jay Dyerof faith for the church. So particularly that's how it's defined, I mean I know that you gave several sort of qualifiers in your thing, but

22:25Jay Dyerthe classical reformation doctrine,

22:27Jay Dyerwhich is what I'm assuming that you're here to defend, is that it is the sole infallible

22:32Jay Dyerand final rule of faith for the church of God.

22:37Jay DyerThe problem with this, of course, is that it's not just a question of one or two verses in Thessalonians

22:42Jay Dyerhere or there that might reference tradition. I mean, I think second Thessalonians two fifteen is referencing both written and oral traditions that are binding it to standing injunction,

22:51Jay Dyerbut actually the idea of oral tradition as authoritative

22:55Jay Dyeris something that was always

22:58Jay Dyeralways the case even during the period when we had prophets who had direct revelation

23:02Jay Dyerof scripture

23:04Jay Dyeror the word of God in an oral form, and then in a written form, because we know, for example, for many centuries prior to the writing of the law of Moses,

23:12Jay Dyerit was oral, so we don't, I mean it could have been written, but we don't know if there was a prior written tradition.

23:17Jay DyerWhat we know of as the Torah is eventually written down and a record of an oral tradition that's providentially preserved. Now, God can providentially preserve the oral tradition from the time of, you know, Abraham, etcetera, up to Moses, there's nothing preventing God from preserving

23:33Jay Dyeraspects of oral tradition for the church today, and I will give examples of the very thing that he asked for examples of in his opening statement in a bit. But it's in the Old Testament itself that we come to the notion of the law and the testimony.

23:47Jay DyerRight? So Isaiah, for example, makes mention of the law of God,

23:52Jay Dyerpresumably the written text, and the testimony.

23:55Jay DyerAnd Jesus himself, in many places, actually references things that are not in the written text of the Old Testament. He mentions in Matthew 23 the seat, or the cathedra of Moses. There's nothing in the Old Testament that says that there's a successive seat of the the office of Moses, and yet, when Ezra founded the

24:12Jay Dyerof the law of the synagogue,

24:14Jay Dyerthey became the de facto

24:16Jay Dyersuccessors to Moses, which is a tradition that Jesus, of course, gives an affirmation to.

24:22Jay DyerWhen Jesus rebukes the traditions of men, it is not all forms of world tradition, therefore, that he's rebuking, he's just rebuking

24:28Jay Dyerthe pharisaic

24:30Jay Dyeraccretions

24:31Jay Dyerand misinterpretations

24:32Jay Dyerthat Jeremiah himself had objected to in the book of Jeremiah, where he calls the scribes and pharisees of his day liars for adding to and subtracting from the word of God. That does not mean that there's no oral word of God. Now I know that my opponent admitted that there was a time when there was, say, an oral word of God or so or other

24:53Jay Dyerperhaps forms in which God had spoken.

24:56Jay DyerBut what we see is when we go through Old Testament texts

25:00Jay Dyerthemselves,

25:01Jay Dyerwe find in many places in the Old Testament itself, again, I will give you the example of second chronicles 29,

25:08Jay Dyerwhere we have the story of king Hezekiah

25:10Jay Dyerorganizing

25:11Jay Dyerthe liturgy,

25:12Jay Dyerright, the entire liturgical process on worship of God,

25:17Jay Dyernot on the basis of explicitly written text. There's no known written

25:22Jay Dyerdescriptor of how the liturgical practice and worship was to be done, and yet

25:27Jay Dyera few hundred years later

25:29Jay Dyerthey they took the tradition that had existed at the time of

25:34Jay DyerDavid and

25:35Jay Dyerthrough this oral tradition they were able to organize this vast liturgical

25:39Jay Dyerpractice and ceremony,

25:41Jay Dyerand that's

25:42Jay Dyerironic because if you're talking about a person from the reformed tradition,

25:47Jay Dyerwho he, which he said the London Baptist Confession, well both London Baptist Confession and the Westminster

25:51Jay DyerConfession of Faith reference what's called the regulative principle of worship.

25:55Jay DyerThe regulative principle of worship from the reformed perspective is basically that there's nothing allowed in worship

26:00Jay Dyerthat the word of God does not explicitly sanction.

26:04Jay DyerRight? That's the classic view. Then of course we get reformed and puritan theologians

26:08Jay Dyerhaggling and debating amongst themselves whether that means instruments, whether that means only psalm only,

26:13Jay Dyerwhether that women have to wear head coverings, etc, and there are a multitude of countless denominations of the reformed who are split over precisely those very topics.

26:23Jay DyerSo ironically,

26:24Jay Dyerthe very things that they think

26:26Jay Dyerare regulative principles

26:28Jay Dyerare actually in the text themselves, the Old Testament,

26:31Jay Dyernot only written form. Now that's ironic because if you think about Nadab and Abihu who are castigated for offering strange fire,

26:40Jay Dyerright, would there not have been written form,

26:43Jay Dyerat least in every specific, for how the liturgy should be worshipped? And yet once again,

26:48Jay Dyersecond Chronicles 29

26:53Jay Dyerexplicitly is noting that

26:55Jay Dyerthe liturgical worship of Hezekiah is organized according to the tradition and not according to what we know as

27:02Jay Dyerwritten. We know that the Old Testament mentions many texts, right, that are not part of the canonical

27:07Jay Dyerlist of scriptures, such as the book of the just, the book of the wars of the Lord,

27:13Jay Dyerthe book of Nathan the prophet, the

27:16Jay Dyerbook of Ado the seer, etc, and what this shows is that even in a period in which the

27:23Jay Dyerregulative principle, so to speak, was so strict,

27:26Jay Dyerthere was still references within Scripture to non canonical texts as

27:32Jay Dyeraccurate presentations of events and

27:36Jay Dyerprophecies. Right? So again, the prophecy

27:39Jay Dyerof Ado the seer, the book of Ado the seer, we don't have the book of Ado the seer, and yet we're told that it includes

27:45Jay Dyertrue statements,

27:47Jay Dyertrue history, and he is called a true prophet.

27:50Jay DyerSo in other words,

27:52Jay Dyerif it is the case that sola scriptura is true, and many times we actually see reformed theologians appealing to Old Testament texts to prove sola scriptura,

28:02Jay Dyerthe irony is of course that in that time period nobody was operating on the principle of sola scriptura, and the Jews themselves never believed in sola scriptura. Now perhaps you could argue there's a sect of the Jews, kariites or whatever, the Torah only Jews,

28:17Jay Dyerthat's not the mainstream of Judaism and it's not the Judaism of Jesus' day that Jesus accepted

28:23Jay Dyerwhen he said to the woman at the well, salvation is of the Jews. Okay, he's not talking about the Karaites, he's talking about the normative Judaism of his day, which he did admit was represented by the scribes and the pharisees,

28:35Jay Dyereven though they were wicked, even though they were hypocritical,

28:38Jay Dyerhe did say the pharisees sit in the seat of Moses and therefore they are the legitimate authority and successor, so do what they say but not as they do.

28:47Jay DyerSo what this shows is that we know the pharisees believed in oral tradition, we know that Jesus is affirming the validity of oral tradition, and this is in a period in which most

28:58Jay Dyerprotestants and reformed will literally cite text from the old testament and text from the new testament before the compilation and determination of the canon to prove sola scriptura.

29:09Jay DyerNow again, I'm not trying to misrepresent

29:12Jay Dyermy opponent's position, but at one point, and he can correct me if I misheard him when he gives his reply, but he did say something that sounded to me like

29:21Jay DyerPaul and Timothy, etc, weren't practicing sola scriptura.

29:25Jay DyerWell if that's the case, then second Timothy,

29:29Jay Dyerright, is not going to be a proof for sola scriptura, right, because second Timothy

29:34Jay Dyertalking about the

29:36Jay Dyerability of the God inspired, God breathed scriptures

29:40Jay Dyerto make the man of God perfect for every good work, is by his own admission not about sola scriptura. Right? I mean it's in a period in which there are other books of the New Testament that haven't been written yet, like the apocalypse. Right? Now,

29:56Jay Dyeranother element that I think we have to get to

29:59Jay Dyerthroughout his

30:00Jay Dyerdiscussion that was presupposed and never actually demonstrated

30:05Jay Dyerwas the very topic of the canon itself. Now he did attempt to address one element of

30:10Jay Dyerdebates about the canon regarding the authorship of Matthew,

30:14Jay Dyerwhich yes, I do typically bring that up because the authorship of Matthew is part of the element

30:21Jay Dyerand bases

30:22Jay Dyerfor how we know that Matthew should be in the canon. So apostolic authorship is one of the criteria,

30:29Jay Dyerbut not the only criteria per se, right?

30:34Jay DyerIt's just one element, but

30:36Jay Dyerthere's more than that, because there are many, for example, gospels that were floating around that claimed to have apostolic authorship. So something more was needed other than, because we have to have a way, for example, to adjudicate between

30:48Jay Dyerpseudepigrapha

30:49Jay Dyerand the actual gospels written by, say, Matthew himself.

30:54Jay DyerSo this is where the tradition of the church, which he admitted, comes into play,

30:58Jay Dyerand I appreciate him giving some admission to

31:01Jay Dyerthe tradition of the church, but the irony was that the admissions that he gave

31:06Jay Dyeractually skirted and bypassed the very issue at heart, which is that

31:11Jay Dyerthe list of the scriptures in terms of their canon is just as necessary

31:16Jay Dyerand infallible as the text that make up that list, obviously, and I would think that's self evident. Right?

31:23Jay DyerBecause you can't argue for the the

31:27Jay Dyerinspiration and inerrancy of the scriptures without having a knowledge of the content of those scriptures, right? So we need to know the list of books that goes into that book and he alluded to the

31:38Jay Dyerpoint of

31:39Jay Dyerwhat R. C. Sproul used say, that it's a fallible collection of infallible books, well I just take issue with that phrase itself as itself a contradiction.

31:47Jay DyerIf the infallible list itself is in toto fallible,

31:52Jay Dyeror excuse me, the infallible books themselves are collected

31:56Jay Dyerfallibly,

31:57Jay Dyerthen presumably things can be removed, and precisely in the Reformation that's what we see, we actually see the reformers removing the books that they find problem with. Luther, for example, famously said that I reject any of the books of the

32:10Jay Dyerdeuterocanon

32:10Jay Dyerthat do not preach the word of God.

32:13Jay DyerWhat is that? Well, it's whatever Luther interpreted to be consonant with his dialectical doctrine of grace versus law. So text that dealt with works can't be therefore canonical because they don't preach grace and they don't preach the gospel. Now that's Luther as just an example, I know that my opponent isn't Lutheran, I'm just illustrating that that that's the attitude and principle that we see in the reformers,

32:36Jay Dyerand it's not accidental that it's from the reformed church in its infancy and from the Lutheran church in its infancy, that afterwards we begin to see the dissecting

32:46Jay Dyerand removing and destruction of the integrity of the scriptures themselves. Now my opponent obviously is not a liberal textual scholar, but all I'm saying is that the presuppositions of the ability to challenge the church's authority on the collection of books in the canon is what sets the stage for and allows for the academics to then destroy the rest of the scriptures themselves.

33:08Jay DyerSo if the church is wrong about the collection of the books, then the church and its historical interpretation can also be wrong about anything else such as the deity of Christ, right? So in other words, it doesn't work to beg the question

33:20Jay Dyerabout when you're asked about which books make up the canon to say the ones that are correct

33:26Jay Dyerin the Bible, that's what his position said. He did allude to things like tradition, he did admit that he needed the church's tradition,

33:33Jay Dyerbut when confronted with the fact that that would seem to lead to the conclusion that the church at least isn't wrong in this point, right, of the determining of the canon,

33:43Jay Dyerhe alluded to the fact that, well, he said, the bible is authoritative,

33:47Jay DyerJesus is authoritative, and Jesus is God.

33:50Jay DyerBut that's begging the question, because we're asking about the text that tell us that Jesus is authoritative and Jesus is from God. Right? So the question was about what is the authorship of Matthew.

34:01Jay DyerMatthew doesn't identify its author, so to say, well,

34:06Jay DyerI'm going to

34:08Jay Dyerturn to the question of Matthew's authorship on the basis of the Bible's authority.

34:14Jay DyerNow that's the thing that's in question though. Right?

34:17Jay DyerHow do we know that Matthew is Matthew's gospel? And the response was,

34:22Jay Dyerthe Bible's authoritative, Jesus is authoritative, and Jesus is God.

34:26Jay DyerBegging the question. Right?

34:29Jay DyerSo if you're going to admit that the church has the normative authority in terms of determining the canon,

34:36Jay Dyerwhich it does, and that's my what I'm going to really end with here,

34:40Jay Dyeris is that not only does the church have normative authority to determine the canon, you actually made an odd statement that you

34:48Jay Dyerfollow the bible because the church is an institution of man. Well, it looks to me like in Acts two, it's an institution that God created. It's an institution that is the body of Christ. Jesus said, he who hears you, hears me, so he gives to the apostles the very authority that he himself had.

35:06Jay DyerHe then, in the epistles to Timothy, Paul says, I laid hands on you, you lay hands on men after you who will be able to transmit the things you heard from me in the presence of many witnesses.

35:17Jay DyerSo that's also another attestation to the oral tradition because Paul taught,

35:22Jay Dyeras Acts says, for three years, day and night in Ephesus, and he says to Timothy, the whole deposit of the faith, which you heard from me in the presence of many witnesses, pass that on,

35:32Jay Dyerwhich includes obviously the scriptures, and a milieu, a context from which to interpret those scriptures,

35:39Jay Dyerand I would add that the New Testament, you'll notice, does not lay down any liturgical pattern of worship. So he wanted an example, the church's liturgy, and we actually have those ancient historic liturgies,

35:50Jay Dyerand those liturgies,

35:51Jay Dyerif you don't know, help determine the canon of scripture in the councils. That's my fifteen minutes.

35:59PedroAlright. And I think the cross examination actually starts with you sir, cross examining me. So you wanna take over for ten minutes? I have a timer here, and you can set your own timer.

36:08Jay DyerOkay. Let's go. So

36:11Jay Dyeryou said that

36:13Jay Dyerfirst thing I would like to address is the Augustine quotes. So you gave a quote from Augustine that

36:20Jay Dyerintended or it appeared to try to give the impression

36:23Jay Dyerthat Augustine believed in your doctrine of the

36:27Jay Dyerauthority or final authority or

36:31Jay Dyersola scriptura basically. Is that what you take that quote to mean?

36:35PedroNegative, sir. It's in, I think, when he's actually fighting for the unity of church against the Gnostics,

36:41Pedrohe's simply saying to base all your arguments in scripture.

36:45PedroThat way you can actually call out the Gnostics.

36:48Jay DyerOkay. So you don't think that Augustine believes sola scriptura?

36:51PedroNo. I believe that Augustine,

36:53Pedrobelieves that all of his argumentation

36:56Pedroshould come from scripture.

36:58PedroSo, another text that I could give,

37:00Pedrofor an example, is

37:02PedroI am not bound by the authority of Aramium,

37:05Pedroand you are not bound by that of Nicaea.

37:08PedroBy the authority of the scriptures, that are not the property of anyone,

37:12Pedrobut the common witness of us both.

37:14PedroLet position do battle with position, case with case, reason with reason. This is the works of saint Erasmus answers to Maximus part one volume 18 page two eighty two.

37:26Jay DyerSaint Erasmus?

37:29PedroOh, Saint Augustine, sorry. I abbreviate it, my bad, and I like I've been reading a lot of Erasmus, ladies and gentlemen, so we're on Saint Augustine, my bad. Works of Saint Augustine.

37:37Jay DyerOkay. So first of all, the fact that so

37:41Jay Dyerthe premise of scripture in apologetics and argumentation is not the same thing as sola scriptura. Right? Do you agree with that?

37:49PedroNo. I would just I would I would allow I would I would just allow the premise that's trying to be made here and say, okay. If you don't think that what was what was interpret

37:58PedroAugustine's

37:59Pedrointerpretation,

38:00Pedroright, I'm interpreting them wrong.

38:02PedroFrom that passage that I just quoted to you,

38:04PedroI don't see any other, but it's not my type question.

38:07Jay DyerBad. He could have been saying hypothetically,

38:09Jay Dyeroh, well, you claim to not accept the authority of Nicaea, I mean do you know for example

38:15Jay Dyerthat, have you read the canons of Nicaea?

38:18PedroNot completely, no sir.

38:20Jay DyerOkay, do you,

38:22Jay Dyerif

38:23Jay Dyernot completely then in part have you read

38:25PedroYes, sir.

38:26Jay DyerOkay. Could you tell me what types of things are in the canons of Nicaea?

38:29PedroPretty much the confirmation

38:31Pedroof,

38:33PedroI would go for you're right. Some of the texts were discussed.

38:37PedroThey were also talking about some of the deity of Christ or the hypostatic union within Christ, those sorts of things.

38:43Jay DyerNo. The council of Nicaea

38:46Jay Dyerdoes not deal with a hypostatic union, that's Ephesus and Chalcedon. The council of Nicaea in its dogma deals with the deity of Christ. I'm asking about the canons of Nicaea.

38:56PedroOh perfect,

38:57Pedroeducate me, I don't know.

38:58Jay DyerOkay, so the canons of Nicaea deal with issues of church law and church governance, this is where we get,

39:04Jay Dyernow I mean there's canon laws, apostolic canons, apostolic constitutions prior to Nicaea,

39:09Jay Dyerbut Nicaea lists its own canons, and what we see in the canons of Nicaea is things like

39:14Jay Dyerthe episcopate,

39:16Jay Dyerthe offering of the Eucharist, baptismal regeneration,

39:19Jay Dyerthe diaconate

39:21Jay Dyervirgins,

39:22Jay Dyerthe

39:24Jay Dyercelibate life, viaticum,

39:26Jay Dyerthese are all in the canons of Nicaea, Easter, okay, because we'd already had the quartodecimonian

39:31Jay Dyercontroversy prior to Easter. So do think Augustine believed in the canons of Nicaea?

39:37PedroNo, I think he, I think from his quote, I would just read it back once again, I am not bound by the authority of Iremium and you are not bound by that of Nicaea. So he's referencing obviously the accounts of Nicaea.

39:47Jay DyerAugustine believed, Augustine

39:49Jay Dyerbelieved, Augustine

39:51Jay Dyeraccepted, August, so you're quote mining, okay?

39:55PedroOh,

39:56Pedrolet's get the context then.

39:57Jay DyerThis is a fundamental

39:58Jay Dyerissue of church history,

40:00Jay DyerAugustine accepted Nicaea because he was actually involved in councils, right? Do you understand that the church was synodal?

40:07PedroBut he's not demanding his opponent to argue,

40:11Pedrohe's not going to allow his opponent to be subject to Nicaea, that's

40:15Jay Dyerthe point of the opponent doesn't accept the authority though, that's not saying that Augustine

40:20Jay Dyerdoesn't believe in the authority of councils because there's countless places where he does. He was an episcopate

40:25Jay Dyerand attended these councils.

40:28PedroOkay. So we can allow it and then let this go on and say, let's see if you, reject this one too. I answered therefore I didn't reject the authority of scripture has decided which of the

40:38Jay DyerDon't miss one.

40:39PedroNo. No. No. I I reject it. But you can reject that you can reject my quote mining. Right? You called it quote mining that in that quote right there that

40:46Jay DyerI quote because saying if you hadn't you knew the quote

40:49Pedroon I'm

40:50PedroI'm allowing it. I'm I'm allowing it. I'm going on to something else to see if we can move it move it forward. Sure. I answered therefore that if the authority of scripture has decided which of these methods is right,

41:01Pedrothere is no room for doubting that we should do according to that which is written.

41:07PedroThis is volume one, letters of Saint Augustine, letter 54,

41:12Pedrosection six.

41:13Jay DyerYeah. So,

41:15Jay Dyerwhat was Augustine's canon of scripture?

41:18PedroIt was not mine. It was the apocrypha, but, we both can realize that he didn't know Hebrew.

41:25PedroSo he the only two church fathers who

41:27Jay Dyeractually What does that have the

41:29Pedroto do

41:29Jay Dyercanon of scripture?

41:30PedroWell, it has to do with it because who is trusted with the canon of the Old Testament scriptures during the time of its actual inspiration?

41:37PedroWhere what group of people

41:38Jay DyerYeah.

41:39PedroAnd what the church they speak in every region.

41:40Jay DyerSo the church determined the canon of scripture, not the Jews who don't believe in Christ?

41:44PedroOh, no. No. No. No. Well, I would reject that and say, god, in his infallible wisdom, determined the canon. Right? And he is now distributing us to the canon passively.

41:54PedroSo I would reject that completely.

41:55Jay DyerRight. So have you read anything about the history of the formation of the canon?

41:59PedroThe history of the formation of the canon? Yes. It's in this book by, Roger Beckwith.

42:05PedroIt's called the Old Testament Canon of the New Testament Church, and it goes directly into,

42:10Pedrowhy and how we should actually acknowledge the Jews who in Romans three one are acknowledged where all the prophets and apostles and oracles are coming from in the Old Testament who actually came out with the

42:21Jay DyerOld Testament. Did apostles

42:23Jay Dyeruse primarily a proto Masoretic text?

42:26PedroNo, they used the Greek subseutogen. And do

42:28Jay Dyerthey often

42:30Jay Dyercite the deuterocanon?

42:32PedroNo, they're citing the No, groups of

42:33Jay Dyeryou're completely false, completely wrong.

42:36PedroThe New Testament writers in

42:40Jay Dyerdozens of places reference and cite the deuterocanonical books.

42:43PedroWell Psalm one zero two, right?

42:45PedroThe group that

42:46Jay Dyerwe're of places.

42:48PedroOkay, cool. Can you give us or my bad, it's not my time to answer questions. You can just take that from me. I'll take the hit, go

42:53Jay Dyerfor Yeah, but it's not even an issue that's in dispute. So you could read a normative work on the canon from a Protestant, from a Baptist, Lee McDonald. He has a whole appendix of

43:03Jay Dyerdozens and dozens of references in the New Testament books to the deuterocanonical text.

43:09PedroGotcha. So you're still sourcing so so so this is this is where I I have to assert. You're still sourcing

43:16Pedroyour canon, right, in the institutions of man, which I see as an instrument of God that he used in his sovereign will to communicate to his people.

43:26Jay DyerRight. So so

43:26Pedroit's so I I'm trying to see where this is gonna make sense.

43:28Jay DyerSo it has no normative authority. It has no normative No.

43:36PedroIt has the authority that the scriptures give it.

43:39Jay DyerSo it has no normative authority because normative

43:41Jay Dyerauthority authority means that like the constitution, it's a body of people who interpret the document.

43:46PedroWell, I don't think the constitution is inspired

43:48Pedrolike the bible is. So

43:50Pedroonce again, the authority the authority

43:53Pedrogiven to the given to the church is that from which scripture, which is given from God Mhmm. Is given it.

43:59Jay DyerWhen did God when did God tell the canon to the early church?

44:04PedroTo the early church? So are we going into the Old Testament Jews?

44:07Jay DyerNo. The canon of scripture that the early church determined. Do you understand that

44:12PedroOh, in the outpouring? Okay. So post No. No. Post crucifixion.

44:15Jay DyerWell There's no list of the canon? Where is your evidence for the canon? Do the canon of scripture? Well

44:20Pedrowell, like I said, it's invested in the ontological nature of the canon, which means so so this is where

44:26Jay DyerI'm You're saying the

44:28Jay Dyercanon is invested in the in the ontological nature of the canon?

44:32PedroYes.

44:33Jay DyerThat's that's not a good argument. That's a circular argument.

44:36PedroWell, I believe that scripture is scripture is theopneustos,

44:39Pedrogod breathed,

44:40Jay Dyera little breath of

44:41Pedrogod. Right? You referenced the seed of Moses, but tell

44:43Jay Dyeryou that doesn't tell you the list

44:45Pedroof the best. But if I had to finish, you referenced the seed of Moses. The seed of Moses is only described once, and I think that's in, Genesis. I can't give the exact chapter of it. But there is no scholar who actually compares its authority to that of Theotokos.

44:58Jay DyerMoses

44:59Jay Dyeris in Matthew 23. I have no idea what you're talking about.

45:02PedroWell, that's when Jesus is referencing it from Genesis. He's he's he's referencing back to it.

45:08Jay DyerIt's not in Genesis.

45:09Jay DyerOkay. Whereas Moses is not in Genesis.

45:12PedroOh oh, okay. But there is no actual,

45:15Pedrohow do you say? There's never a date being referenced as theopnusos

45:20Pedroon the ontological hierarchical level as god breathed. Ontological meaning is necessary.

45:25Jay DyerI what the word ontology means, I don't understand what this

45:28PedroWell, I'm just tracking because we gotta bring people along here, right?

45:33Jay DyerI mean, it sounds like filibustering to me, so I don't know.

45:35PedroOh, well, I'm just trying to explain my position, my bad, keep going.

45:38Jay DyerOkay, I don't hear an argument or explanation for the position, I hear you saying these words,

45:43Jay Dyerhow does that answer my question

45:46Jay Dyerthe church as a historical fact being the ones that debated in six centuries

45:51Jay Dyerwhat the canon would be?

45:58PedroWell, I think the church is being guided by the holy spirit in its when that's the offering of the holy spirit.

46:05Jay DyerI know you think that.

46:06PedroNo. No. No. I don't think that. I know that. We know that by the scriptures, sir. That's not a think not a think question, that's actually a fact of reality. You

46:13Jay Dyerunderstand this is a question of post New Testament

46:17Jay Dyerthe Yes. First 600

46:21Jay DyerSo I'm asking you about that time period.

46:24Jay DyerBy the way, my ten minutes is up if you want to switch it around.

46:27PedroOkay. Cool. Cool. And I'll just reset the timer.

46:36PedroAlright.

46:38PedroTen minutes and let's start the clock.

46:41PedroSo, sir, can you give us a can you explain to us all what a

46:45Pedroargument from silence is? Can you take a take you can take two minutes of my time to do this.

46:53Jay DyerI didn't make an argument from silence, so I don't know what your why No.

46:56PedroNo. Wait. Well well, I'm I'm trying I'm gonna slowly build a case. What is an argument from silence?

47:03Jay DyerI mean, I think it's self explanatory.

47:05Jay DyerIt's trying to make an argument where there is no evidence of that thing.

47:09PedroPerfect. Okay. So, you saw my last quote where I gave the scripture where

47:15Pedrosecond Timothy,

47:17Pedroscripture is being referenced

47:19Pedroas.

47:20PedroRight? And it being able to equip the man for every good work. In your

47:25Jay DyerYeah. It doesn't say that's all the same.

47:26PedroResponse in your response to mine,

47:29PedroI just wanna know, you said at one point, I think, there is some kind of liturgical authority,

47:36Pedroor liturgical practice.

47:38PedroYeah. They're called in scripture.

47:40PedroYou heard of Yeah. Where in scripture specifically do you get any of the liturgical practices?

47:45Jay DyerFrom the

47:46PedroThat would have fully equipped a man to actually, you know, write them out just from

47:49Jay Dyerthe scriptures. So you're I think you misinterpret that text because it doesn't mention all kinds of things that are necessary for salvation like prayer or like the gathering together of the saints. So if you're gonna restrict that text to only being what's necessary listed in that text,

48:04Jay Dyerthen prayer isn't necessary and gathering together isn't necessary.

48:08PedroGot it. Going to apostolic

48:11Pedroapostolic

48:12Pedroauthorship,

48:13PedroActs chapter 17,

48:15PedroI think you know the story. The Bereans are actually in contact with Paul, and they have kind of a back and forth where they're testing him by the scriptures. Right?

48:24PedroWhat does Paul actually respond to them at the end of the test when they say, you know, we gotta test you?

48:30PedroWhat does he say at the end of that test?

48:34Jay DyerHe applauds them for their knowledge of scripture and for them for going to the scriptures. Scriptures.

48:39PedroOkay. So would it be, wise for a person in this day when we have, you know, Jehovah's Witness,

48:45PedroMormon,

48:46PedroMormons,

48:47Pedroall these other, you know, heretical groups that mean you would agree a heretical,

48:51Pedrothey all the time make kind of the same,

48:54Pedrowhat what would you call it? Truth claims. Sure. Right? Good example would be the Book of Mormon. Right? How would you go against battling the, the Book of Mormon?

49:03Jay DyerThe same way that I go against battling you where I point out that we have a historical testimony of a historic church with absolute succession, and so you're basically in the same position as the Mormon.

49:13PedroSo you would never actually put

49:16Pedroa scripture to test like Paul put them to the scriptures like the Bereans put Paul to the scriptures?

49:21Jay DyerNo. I go to the scriptures all the time with heretics, Muslims, atheists, whoever. It's just that I cut it off at the head by that killer argument, which would apply to them and you.

49:30PedroPerfect. Okay. Cool.

49:32PedroWould God have failed in here in communicating his will without the church, or would the church have failed in communing God's will without God's intervention where you place the actual need?

49:45Jay DyerNo. Because in the Old Testament, God was able to communicate his will without the church, in the sense that the church of that time was the nation of Israel,

49:55Jay Dyerand then he established a new thing, which was the church,

49:59Jay Dyerhis body, guided by the holy spirit when Jesus said I will send the holy spirit to guide you and lead you into all truth, which didn't end at Pentecost,

50:06Jay Dyerit still exists. The church is, it's not a human institution, it's still here.

50:11Jay DyerOkay. The church has the same Holy Spirit as in Acts two is what I'm saying, the Orthodox Church.

50:17PedroGotcha. And what,

50:18Pedrogoing to the next question.

50:20PedroWhat on what basis did Jesus reject some of the traditions of the Old Testament Jews who obviously fell out of grace because they started coming up with strange traditional practice, like the mission on the Gomorrah when you read

50:32Jay Dyerecclesiastes They violated

50:35Jay Dyerthe word of God with their tradition, but the word of God is not equal to only written text. So that's your presupposition that I would reject.

50:43PedroPerfect.

50:44PedroAnd then

50:45Pedrodo you think that there are any kind of, errors within,

50:50PedroGod's word without the church

50:52Pedrothat cannot be identified?

50:57Jay DyerNo. I believe in the inerrancy and inspiration of the scriptures.

51:00PedroPerfect. And do you think that man is fallible?

51:05Jay DyerIt's a

51:06Jay Dyerloaded question, complex question, because

51:09PedroCan man make mistake?

51:11Jay DyerYeah. But I wouldn't conclude from that that the church has aired.

51:14PedroOh, for sure. For sure. Because, you know, we have a multiplicity of elders so they can check each other for for that. But in that moment, when you think of inerrant scripture compared to foul men,

51:26Pedrowhat should actually take, precedence in decision making?

51:29Jay DyerI it's a false either or. The same holy spirit that enlightens the apostles to

51:35Jay Dyerestablish the church at Pentecost is the same Holy Spirit that empowers the church throughout the centuries to have the same message, the same power, the same gifts, the same apostolic succession that it had in the first century.

51:47PedroGotcha.

51:48PedroAnd do you see anywhere in scripture anything else that is compared to being theopneustos,

51:54Pedrogod breathes?

51:55Jay DyerThe word of god that's oral.

51:58PedroGotcha. So

51:59Jay DyerSo when Paul preaches day and night for three years in Ephesus,

52:03Jay Dyerthat's the word of god. Peter says the same thing that he preached

52:07Jay Dyerthe word of God, that's not just written.

52:09Jay DyerAnd so other examples of the things that I gave would be the liturgical worship of the church is also theonistos,

52:15Jay Dyeras an example.

52:16PedroGotcha. In Acts chapter nine, when

52:20Pedrothe apostle Paul

52:21Pedrois on the road to Damascus,

52:23Pedrohe goes directly to the synagogue.

52:25PedroFrom what principle does Moses

52:29Pedroargue

52:30Pedrowith the

52:31PedroJews at the time? Where where does he get all his argumentation from?

52:35Jay DyerDon't mean Moses.

52:35PedroThe apostle Paul.

52:37Jay DyerYeah. Well, the Jews accept the writings of Moses, so he's going to argue from the thing that they accept,

52:43Jay Dyerthe scriptures.

52:44PedroWait. The scriptures. Perfect. And do

52:47Pedroyou not see where the tradition is absent there, where he's only arguing from scriptures?

52:51Jay DyerActually, Paul at times does cite tradition.

52:54Jay DyerJesus said it is more blessed to give than to receive, that's not written anywhere. So Paul refers to

52:59Jay DyerJesus tradition,

53:01Jay Dyerbecause John said at the end of Gospel John that Jesus

53:04Jay Dyerdid and said many things that could not even be contained in all the books of the world. So

53:09Jay Dyeryeah, this is, I mean I'm not trying to be rude, but I'm just saying that

53:14Jay Dyerthe text that you're using,

53:17Jay Dyernot the problem for the orthodox position because the orthodox position doesn't deny the premise of scripture, it just denies that scripture alone is the only normative authority.

53:26PedroIs there any group you can identify

53:28Pedrothat has had traditions that have led them to heresy?

53:34PedroWell, because They they take tradition as equal to scripture and then it's led them to heresy?

53:38Jay DyerSure. The pharisees. The very people that you think determine the canon.

53:42PedroPerfect. And Catholics?

53:45PedroLike, we can identify Pope Francis today?

53:49Jay DyerYeah. There there are many instances of the traditions of men, absolutely, which

53:53Jay Dyerreplace the word of God as Jesus said. Sure. Absolutely.

53:57PedroGotcha. So would it be not profitable

54:00Pedrofor, you know, us to take that as an example of this is what happens when traditions are put as presidents

54:07Pedroequal to or above scripture?

54:09Jay DyerYeah. Again, you're just confusing false tradition with true tradition, which the whole argument is presupposing that God's word equals only the written text. And what I said was that God's word

54:18Jay Dyeris oral in many cases and written in many cases.

54:22PedroDo you think that

54:23Pedrous in our camp don't actually think we have traditions? Do you think we

54:28Pedroare traditionless? Is that your thought?

54:31Jay DyerNo. Not at all. That's why I I tried to refer to the the points where you did invoke tradition and point out that I think it's inconsistent because the very thing that you admit is involved in the canon, you're saying, isn't authoritative, but the canon is.

54:44PedroRight. And

54:45Pedrothis is how I would say our camp looks at scripture. You have the lens of scripture, and then you have tradition.

54:52PedroIf you look at the position my hands are in, we're looking through the lens of scripture at tradition.

54:56PedroDo you think it might be,

54:59Pedrodangerous to switch those positions where you're looking through your tradition at scripture?

55:04Jay DyerI think that your analogy is resting on,

55:07Jay Dyera false presupposition

55:09Jay Dyerabout how texts work.

55:11Jay DyerTexts don't prima facie say what they mean and mean what they say, they actually have to be interpreted.

55:17Jay DyerI actually believe that

55:19Jay Dyerscripture is part of a tradition.

55:22Jay DyerThe oral teachings are part of that same tradition,

55:25Jay Dyerand that they work together in a harmony and a milieu that is inseparable.

55:30PedroGotcha. I have a string of questions that we're only at a minute left that I wanna actually go through, so I'm gonna actually seat over the rest of my question time and give it to you.

55:39Jay DyerWhat's the next

55:42Jay Dyerstep in the debate? I forgot.

55:43PedroOh, you cross examine ten minutes.

55:46Jay DyerOkay. Let me

55:47PedroSo you have two more cross examinations.

55:51Jay DyerLet me get my timer started here.

55:58Jay DyerAlright. Want to go back to

56:00Jay Dyerthe list of quest or so your your opening statement.

56:04Jay DyerLet's go back to

56:09Jay Dyerwhen you said

56:14Jay Dyeryou said

56:15Jay Dyeryou had an interesting phrase in your opening statement. You said that sola scriptura does not mean

56:21Jay Dyeryou

56:22Jay Dyerwith your bible under

56:24Jay Dyera tree or something like that, right, sitting out reading your bible. Right? You said that it was

56:30Jay Dyerwas it was not that, and you identified it as that there is some kind of group or church

56:36Jay Dyerthat

56:38Jay Dyeryou said has you have elders or something like that. My question Okay. Is

56:42Jay DyerSo my question is, do you believe that those elders have the authority

56:46Jay Dyerto bind you to any decision about scripture in terms of normative interpretation?

56:52PedroYes, sir. As long as their interpretation

56:54Pedrointerpretation is grounded in the arguments from scripture, I am then bound to them, but that does not put them up, up above scrutiny.

57:02PedroSo if I find something wrong, I am able to come to them, and my arguments have to be based in scripture in order to scrutinize their authority.

57:11Jay DyerSo there's not normative authority in the church?

57:17PedroWe we have normative authority. We just don't put that normative authority above the authority of scripture.

57:22Jay DyerOkay. But what's gonna determine that is your individual reading of scripture. Right? So when the elder says,

57:28Jay Dyeryou're gonna accept this interpretation of this text, and you say, I don't believe in your interpretation, you're not bound by that. Correct?

57:36PedroIt's a it's

57:37Pedroa false premise because we actually believe that God's word was delivered with an intention, so there is an intent

57:43Pedrobehind the words. So, like, you write your books, which are very awesome, by the way. When you wrote those, hopefully, later down the line, people will interpret them with the intent that you originally wrote it with. That's exactly what we're saying. God

57:57Pedrothis means the outpouring of the holy spirit would be intention of actually listing out scripture.

58:02Jay DyerThat's second question.

58:03PedroThere's an objective

58:04Pedromeaning behind the text.

58:06Jay DyerI know that you admit, and your opponent elder who is trying to bind your interpretation

58:11Jay Dyeralso believes that there's an objective meaning, but what happens when there's a dispute over these meanings? For example,

58:16Jay Dyerin the disputes between the Arian and the Orthodox,

58:19Jay Dyerthere was a council called Nicaea,

58:21Jay Dyerand Athanasius, for example, writes in his letters that it was the Holy Spirit who spoke at Nicaea.

58:25Jay DyerSo clearly Athanasius had the attitude that the council of Nicaea was Theo Nustos,

58:30Jay Dyerand the churches bound

58:32Jay Dyertheir

58:33Jay Dyerparishioners to Nicaea.

58:36Jay DyerNow you could reject that, but you'd have to go out and start your own church. So what I'm asking is, is there an entity, a body, a group,

58:44Jay Dyerwhich has normative authority to bind anyone to an interpretation? And you're saying yes, but it has to show what

58:49Pedroscripture I would just share

58:52Pedroshare the opinion that no one holds

58:55Pedrothe scriptures as their own property. Just like Augustine said in his quote, it is the property of the common man from which everyone should base their arguments from. So obviously That's what does not believe. No. Well well well, if you understand that there's an objective meaning of the text and then you are in a in a dispute with another person amongst the scriptures,

59:14Pedrothat objective meaning will come forth.

59:17PedroAnd then obviously the person holding the

59:19Pedrofallible position will be proven wrong.

59:21Jay DyerYeah, but I'm asking you about a specific example where both sides are appealing to the text of scripture and you don't have any way for the church to

59:30Jay Dyerauthoritatively

59:31Jay Dyerbind anyone.

59:32PedroI have a perfect example that

59:35Pedrowe can see today. Pope Francis thinks Pope Francis thinks that gay marriage is okay. Right?

59:43PedroWe agree with that. Right?

59:45Jay DyerHe thinks that. Yeah. Or he appears.

59:48PedroThe Catholics

59:49Pedrohave given him infallible authority to interpret the text due to papal infallibility.

59:54PedroMe and you deny this explicitly.

59:56PedroWe don't have to argue this. Where we would go wrong with where we would battle him is from the text of scripture saying no, marriage is actually between a man and a woman.

1:00:06Jay DyerWell, but the fact that we would appeal to scripture itself does not disprove the point about normative authority. So it's not a question of is there a guy like the Pope who claims to have it, it's a question of how is this to be resolved

1:00:21Jay Dyerwhen, for example, on your position,

1:00:24Jay DyerI could

1:00:25Jay Dyerreject the existing canon of scripture? You said it's a fallible collection of books, so couldn't I just say, well, I've prayed a lot, I've studied a lot,

1:00:33Jay Dyerand I've decided that the actual canon of scripture is like

1:00:38Jay Dyertwo gospels and, like, one of Paul's epistles.

1:00:42PedroWell, this is where I would say we have to identify whether the authority is being, you know, holding himself above scrutiny,

1:00:50Pedrosaying that he's the infallible infallible

1:00:52Pedrointerpreter when in fact we know

1:00:53Jay Dyerit's No, I'm agreeing fallible

1:00:55Jay Dyerwith you, you said it's a fallible collection, so potentially,

1:00:59Jay Dyerand this is what happens in the history of the Protestant church and churches,

1:01:03Jay Dyeris that they begin to dissect the canon and they start taking the books out. And I'm just saying, isn't it true on your position that if it's a fallible collection,

1:01:11Jay Dyerthen potentially that can happen?

1:01:13PedroWell, that goes back to my opening statement where if you saw the line that I, that RC Sproul helped me out with, I start with

1:01:20Pedrothe books are at least in a reliable,

1:01:23Pedroyou know, source of what the church is. Then I take that all the way to fast forwarding because I just don't wanna do my whole opening statement again where they actually are Theotokosk

1:01:32PedroGod Breathe, the in fallible

1:01:34Pedroword.

1:01:35Jay DyerOkay. Is the list of the books?

1:01:39Jay DyerYes.

1:01:42Jay DyerSo it's God breathed, but it's fallible.

1:01:45PedroI'm sorry?

1:01:46Jay DyerIt's God breathed, but it's fallible?

1:01:48PedroWell, the I'll I'll put it this way. If you would have retitled

1:01:52Pedrofrom Matthew

1:01:54Pedrothe life of Jesus

1:01:56Pedroand then you still read the text,

1:01:58Pedroright, and then you put that title in the canon,

1:02:02PedroI would say it's not

1:02:04Pedrorelevant to the situation. You still get scripture

1:02:07Pedrobecause it's dependent

1:02:08Jay Dyeron So the help point of holy

1:02:10Jay DyerI asked a really specific question about

1:02:13PedroOkay.

1:02:13Jay DyerThe

1:02:14Jay Dyercanon.

1:02:15Jay DyerOkay. Is the list of the books also Theo Nustos?

1:02:18PedroOh, wait. My

1:02:20PedroMy bad. Yeah. My bad. You're right. That's, mixing up words. So is the list

1:02:26Pedroinfallible that we have today? No.

1:02:28PedroBut God has an infallible listing because he is the author of it and he knows it. You have that? Do you you have that? Has passed it to

1:02:37Jay DyerDo you have access to that? God's infallible list?

1:02:41Jay DyerNo. Okay. How do you know that exists?

1:02:43PedroBecause through his sovereign in in his sovereign

1:02:46Jay DyerYou're begging the question because do you are you getting that are you getting that from scripture?

1:02:50PedroWe're getting that from the sovereign purposes and will of God.

1:02:53Jay DyerIs that from scripture?

1:02:55Jay DyerYes. Okay. So now you're circling.

1:02:56PedroYes. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's just like in Daniel four thirty four to 30 circle. Let let me just quote it. Let me

1:03:02Jay Dyerjust quote it. Bagging the

1:03:03Pedroquestion.

1:03:04PedroLet me let me just quote it. Let's see if you get this. For his dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom endures

1:03:10Pedrofrom generation to generation.

1:03:13PedroAll the inhabitants of the earth account as nothing, and he does according to his will among the host of heaven and,

1:03:21Pedrothe inhabitants of earth,

1:03:22Pedroand none can stay his hand or say to him,

1:03:26Pedrowhat have you done?

1:03:27Jay DyerCiting a text

1:03:28Pedroabout of that text means that if he if he has an intent in order to communicate to his church, his elect people,

1:03:37Pedrohis revealed will, he will do it no matter what. No organization

1:03:41PedroThat's answer.

1:03:42Jay DyerThe question I'm asking you is prior to the text.

1:03:46Jay DyerSo you can't cite the text to prove the question that I'm asking you.

1:03:50PedroOh, so we can't cite

1:03:54Pedroscripture even though God has given it to us?

1:03:56Jay DyerI didn't say you couldn't cite scripture, I'm asking you an epistemic question that

1:04:00Pedrois Okay.

1:04:01Jay DyerClear to scripture.

1:04:02Jay DyerSo Okay. Every time

1:04:03PedroOkay. Every scripture. On.

1:04:05Jay DyerSo every time you cite scripture, you're begging the question that I'm asking you because the Okay. Question is about the list of the scriptures themselves.

1:04:12PedroRight. Right. And I'm gonna say I I would say this.

1:04:16PedroThe text, the scriptures, right, are a fact of reality. Before they were written, right, we know a a Wait.

1:04:24PedroWait. Wait. Wait. But but was it reality is a text answer. Woah. Woah. What it was it a fact before it where it was written

1:04:32Pedrothat,

1:04:33Pedrogot the the verse I quoted, was that a fact of reality,

1:04:36Pedroor did that have to be written for it to be made true?

1:04:39Jay DyerYou said it was in the mind of God, and I asked you if you had an access to that.

1:04:42PedroYes, I agree. But I'm asking saying

1:04:44Jay Dyerif you had access to that and you said no.

1:04:47PedroWell, well, well, I'm saying that if you don't have access to it, it

1:04:53Pedrostill makes it true. Right?

1:04:54Jay DyerI'm just asking your position.

1:04:55PedroHow do you if you don't have

1:04:57Jay Dyeraccess to it, how do you know if you don't have access to it?

1:05:00PedroHow do how do I know? Because no matter if it was written or not, it still happened in time. It took place. That event was sovereignly decreed by God. It happened. You can't refute that.

1:05:12Jay DyerThe list of the canon of scripture that is infallible

1:05:15PedroIs in it is fallible.

1:05:16Jay DyerIs in the mind of God, the one that No.

1:05:18PedroNo. No. We we have the the list that is in God's mind well, okay. My bad my bad that I misspoke. I'll say it this way. The list in the father's head is infallible.

1:05:29PedroWhat he has given to us and what we know

1:05:32Pedrois fallible.

1:05:33Jay DyerK. We How do you know that first

1:05:35PedroScripture scripture is a How do you know? Scripture is an artifact

1:05:39Pedroof revelation. It is not an

1:05:42Pedroobject of revelation.

1:05:43Jay DyerFirst Do

1:05:43Pedroyou understand that?

1:05:44Jay DyerThat first proposition,

1:05:46Jay Dyerhow do you know that?

1:05:48PedroHow do I know that God is sovereign?

1:05:51Jay DyerNo. You know what I'm asking you about, the infallible list in God's mind that you have no access to.

1:05:57PedroDon't have access to the mind of God yet

1:06:00Jay DyerThat's my time, so you what's wanna

1:06:02Jay Dyernext?

1:06:04Jay DyerRight.

1:06:05PedroI get another ten minutes, Okay.

1:06:07Jay DyerOkay.

1:06:07PedroSo

1:06:10Pedroyou've written many books before. Right?

1:06:13PedroTwo books.

1:06:14PedroPerfect. Okay.

1:06:16PedroWe both agree that letters are just symbols.

1:06:19PedroWhen those symbols come together to form words,

1:06:22Pedrothose words are used to define an intent. Right? We can agree on that. Right? There's

1:06:27Pedroa purpose to a sentence you write. Correct?

1:06:30Jay DyerSure.

1:06:30PedroNow when you put pen to paper,

1:06:33Pedronaturally,

1:06:34Pedroa a canon starts to take place in your mind. Correct?

1:06:38PedroThat you infallibly know.

1:06:40Jay DyerA canon?

1:06:41PedroNo. A canon listing of the books

1:06:44Pedrothat Jay Dyer would write. Correct? You don't know we don't know if Jay Dyer,

1:06:50Pedrowe don't know the infallible listing of Jay Dyer's books, but we know Jay

1:06:55Pedroknows his infallible listing of books, correct? Because you you put pen to paper the moment you started, correct?

1:07:02Jay DyerSo this is a question of history. That's the problem here.

1:07:05PedroSo Well, I'm just trying to get the concept I'm just trying to get the concept across is you've written books with an intent and you have a listing of those books that you may or may not write in the future that no one else infallibly knows but you. Correct?

1:07:20Jay DyerYeah. But you have access to my list of books. You don't have access to the thing that you said.

1:07:25PedroI would have to I would have to ask you though. Right? I would I would and even when you answer me, say time

1:07:31Pedrothirty years goes by

1:07:33Jay DyerMhmm.

1:07:33PedroMy my list of, oh, I know Jay is gonna be coming out with a book this set year kinda kinda trails off. Correct?

1:07:42PedroBecause you may have decided to make a new book. Right?

1:07:45Jay DyerOkay.

1:07:46PedroRight? Okay. Perfect. Do any of the books

1:07:50Pedrodown through history

1:07:52Pedrolose their objective meaning when you wrote it with the intent that you did over time?

1:07:58PedroDo they change?

1:08:00Jay DyerNo.

1:08:02PedroPerfect. Now can you see how that concept comes over to scripture where we're talking about interpret no?

1:08:07Jay DyerTotally false analogy.

1:08:09PedroRight. So you used so you used words. Right? Did the apostle Paul use words,

1:08:15Pedrowhen he was

1:08:16Pedrowriting the letter to the Ephesians?

1:08:20Jay DyerThe fact that I use words and Paul use words, what is that? Yeah. Well, when

1:08:25Pedroyou wrote your book,

1:08:26Pedrothere's an intent behind it. Right?

1:08:28Jay DyerRight. Sure.

1:08:28PedroYou were trying to transmit a specific message. Sure. When Paul was talking to the Ephesians,

1:08:34Pedrowe both know that they're going through a time of,

1:08:37Pedroyou know, there's a battling over who has, rights over the covenant. Right? Covenant of God. The Gentiles or the Jews. That's the whole argument. Right? So he's addressing that issue, and he's trying to transmit over the intent, right, of no, you both are now one in Christ. Correct? Sure. That is an objective meaning of Ephesians.

1:08:57Jay DyerYeah. I agree with that.

1:08:59PedroOh, perfect. Okay. So if a church body government

1:09:02Pedrocomes up with any other different interpretation of the general meaning or the intent of that text, can we challenge them on the basis of no, the objective meaning of this text is not what you're saying in your interpretation?

1:09:15PedroCan we do that?

1:09:17Jay DyerYou can, but it's not the same question as the epistemic question of what books are in the bible. So you keep confusing the two questions.

1:09:27PedroOkay. I'm just trying to make sure that we can get an objective meaning from the word of God for right now. That's what this line of question is.

1:09:33Jay DyerSo the fact that texts are interpreted does not mean that there's not objective meaning that's derived from the text. Of course, we can

1:09:39PedroWhat what

1:09:41Pedrowhat other objective meaning can you get from

1:09:44PedroPaul writing a letter to the Ephesians addressing

1:09:47Pedrotheir battle over who has rights to the covenant? So this is a Other objective meaning

1:09:52Jay Dyerloaded question about the meaning of text because texts don't have one meaning. They're interpreted,

1:09:58Jay Dyerand that's what I'm trying to say earlier about there's no such thing as the text just means what it says and says what it means. Every text of scripture is interpreted within the light of the rest of the text of scripture and within the light of the canon the church determined

1:10:10Jay Dyerand her liturgical practices, that's why I referenced liturgy,

1:10:14Jay Dyerbecause the liturgy was one of the key things that the church fathers looked at,

1:10:19Jay Dyeraka the lectionaries,

1:10:20Jay Dyerto determine the canon. Did you even know, were you aware that the

1:10:24Pedroare there any well, this is my question, Tom. Are there any texts

1:10:28Pedrothat, you know, state objectively

1:10:31Pedrowho who God is? Are there any texts like that that just stated objectively?

1:10:35PedroI think of Isaiah 10.

1:10:38Jay DyerYeah. But the fact that it states

1:10:40PedroIsaiah forty three ten. Sorry.

1:10:41Jay DyerYeah. But that doesn't mean the texts aren't interpreted, that they aren't part of a web or a matrix of other connected texts. I mean I agree.

1:10:48PedroI agree. What what is enough? If we're just looking at focusing on Isaiah forty three ten,

1:10:53Pedrowhat is another objective meaning from that text that you can get other than the nature of the nature and the who and the what is is God?

1:11:02Jay DyerSo the question is not about can you derive meanings from the text. The point

1:11:08Jay Dyeris that a text doesn't stand alone. That's the point I'm trying to make. Oh,

1:11:12Pedrofor sure.

1:11:13Jay DyerI'm not saying you can't read Isaiah and understand what the text is talking about, but it's only gonna be understood in the light of all the others and in the context of the church, that's what I'm saying. So asking me questions that I don't disagree with.

1:11:25PedroI know, well, I'm not trying to make a disagreement with you, I'm just trying to show you that there is an objective meaning to the text. So say you talked about,

1:11:33PedroI would say in This is a

1:11:35Jay Dyercategory error, you're confusing categories because

1:11:37Jay DyerI'm not disagreeing with objective meanings, to say that the texts are interpreted does not mean they don't have objective meanings, it's just as simple to say that they're not a prima facie.

1:11:46PedroBut we know that there are church, church organizations, the watchtower bible. Right? They think that Jesus is the archangel Michael. Mhmm.

1:11:56PedroWhat is the objective

1:11:57Pedroactual interpretation

1:11:59Pedroof the text of who Jesus is? He's died.

1:12:02PedroWe agree on that. Right?

1:12:04Jay DyerYeah. But that doesn't answer the the objection about how texts are interpreted.

1:12:09Jay DyerThe fact that you unite the fact

1:12:11Pedrothat I'm trying what I'm trying to get to is that there is a church government. Right? An authority, a normative authority called the Watchtower

1:12:17PedroSociety who makes punishments to their Jehovah's Witnesses that give them a false interpretation.

1:12:24PedroBut if the clergy

1:12:26Pedrowere smart enough well, this is what I'm getting to. If the clergy was smart enough to actually go into the word of God, they would be able to actually challenge their authority, right, from the grounds of scripture and say, no. I'm sorry, sir.

1:12:40PedroJesus is God. Correct?

1:12:44Jay DyerWell, no. Because on the one hand, they actually have a mistranslated

1:12:48Jay Dyerbook. Right? Their new world translation

1:12:51Jay Dyeractually removes a lot of the references to Christ. So in fact, no, you can't just go to the book because they have the wrong bible, which is similar to what you have, the wrong bible.

1:13:00PedroOh, so you cannot use the bible that

1:13:04Jay DyerAre you aware of You can't well, yeah. You aware of the New World Translation?

1:13:08PedroYes, am. Can you not well, I'm able to use the New World Translation to actually even prove that Jesus is God because there are certain things that they don't have edited like that. And I know it's a it's a it's a doctored it's it it doctors the original original language, the original translation

1:13:23Jay Dyerof God. So are you familiar right. But you keep just saying that we can go to this text, we can go to that text, we can go to that text. Do you understand that the questions that I was asking were pretextual?

1:13:35PedroOh, well, right. I'm totally getting that, but you keep relying on

1:13:41Pedroas in God does never have a purpose to communicate his will to God.

1:13:45Jay DyerI never said that.

1:13:46PedroThat's the whole problem.

1:13:47Jay DyerI never said that.

1:13:48PedroI don't know where you

1:13:49Jay Dyersaid that.

1:13:49PedroWell well, how about this?

1:13:52PedroThe church will get scripture

1:13:54Pedroif they have God. Right?

1:13:57PedroYou need God in the outpouring of the Holy Spirit

1:14:01Pedroto use the church as an instrument to get scripture. Correct?

1:14:08Jay DyerI think God providentially used the church because Jesus said the Holy Spirit would be given to the church and it it would never leave the church. And so therefore I totally agree. That's how the church determined the canon.

1:14:19PedroAnd I and I totally agree. Now the

1:14:22Pedrooperate without the whole without the well, watch this. Watch this. Without the outpouring of the Holy Spirit,

1:14:29Pedrocan the church know the will of God?

1:14:32Jay DyerOf course not.

1:14:34PedroAnd would would without the church,

1:14:38PedroGod had failed to communicate his word to his people?

1:14:42Jay DyerThat's an impossible question because he chose to use the church. That's the point.

1:14:46PedroFor sure. What group do we know that that fell from grace was responsible for scripture?

1:14:56Jay DyerNo church that was responsible for scripture except for the Palestinian

1:15:00Jay DyerJews Right.

1:15:03PedroSo they were an instrument

1:15:05Jay DyerMhmm.

1:15:05PedroThat after a time

1:15:07Pedrototally

1:15:08Pedroderailed,

1:15:09Pedrolost their meaning Right. But still were used providentially

1:15:12PedroYeah. But the sovereign God to

1:15:14Jay Dyercommunicate his to cost. So you you what you're not getting is the importance of Pentecost and redemptive history.

1:15:20PedroWell, I think what you're not getting is

1:15:22Jay DyerNo, you said the church

1:15:24Pedrosovereign, well, let me finish. You said the I think church what you're not getting is the sovereign will of God because think about it this way.

1:15:30Jay DyerWell, you have to just sit here. You don't believe that God is sovereign and powerful enough to use the church.

1:15:35PedroOh, yeah. Well, well, well, let let let You said it was a human institution. So so Let's let's the test

1:15:40Jay Dyerchurch failed. You think the church failed.

1:15:41PedroNo. No. No. No. No. I don't think the church failed. I think the church would fail without God. But here we go. You believe the church Let let let's give the example. Let's

1:15:50Pedrogo to an example of the sovereignty of God.

1:15:53PedroGenesis 50. Right?

1:15:55PedroJoseph,

1:15:56Pedrohe's just met back up with his brothers after they sold him into slavery.

1:16:01PedroHe says a a a very, key quote to them. What you meant for evil, God meant for good.

1:16:07PedroRight?

1:16:07Jay DyerWhy would you think I deny the providence and salvation of God?

1:16:10PedroI'm not saying I'm just saying that we are instruments used by God

1:16:15Pedroto

1:16:16Jay DyerExcept for the church in the first

1:16:18Pedroto put down. No. No. No.

1:16:20Jay DyerExcept for the church. You don't believe No. No. No. You don't don't believe

1:16:24PedroWell, that's my opening statement. Well, that was my in my opening statement, if you listen. The church should not boast

1:16:30Pedroabout being the instrument that God chose to use in order to communicate his

1:16:34Jay Dyerword funny because Paul said the church of

1:16:36Pedrothe body. So the They they should grateful they should be they should be grateful that they were the instrument used by God in his sovereign will to communicate the word the world.

1:16:46Jay DyerSo now you're admitting that they were, used in the first seven?

1:16:49PedroNo. No. No. I'm I'm identifying I'm identifying that it is God's sovereign will, which is all dependent upon that we have

1:16:56Jay DyerYou have a false dialectic.

1:16:58Jay DyerThis is a false dialectic between the church and God's sovereignty.

1:17:02PedroSo I keep I I only have a minute left, by the way, so this will be your final response. Go for it. My bad.

1:17:09PedroKeep going.

1:17:11Jay DyerWell, is it who whose turn is it? What do you mean?

1:17:15PedroOh,

1:17:17PedroI actually think we're done. I think that was it.

1:17:20Jay DyerThen That was cross examination. Oh, That was cross examination

1:17:23Jay Dyerand then there's closing statements.

1:17:28Jay DyerCool. You said as long as you want and then I'll let you go as long as you want. And then we'll Do you wanna open up for q and a?

1:17:34PedroRight.

1:17:35PedroSo I think what's happening here is, we are trying to communicate in in the essence of the rule of faith that, oh, is this not a closing statement?

1:17:45Jay DyerIt's supposed to be mine.

1:17:47PedroOh my bad, yeah, go for it.

1:17:48Jay DyerI mean that's how you have it listed, I don't

1:17:50PedroNo no no, you're right, right.

1:17:52PedroYou're correct, my bad. I'm just jumping the gun here.

1:17:55Jay DyerIt's okay.

1:17:56Jay DyerSo

1:17:57Jay Dyeryeah, I'll give my closing statement, I'll try to keep it as quick as I can. Just to kind of review and recap, my

1:18:04Jay Dyertake initially

1:18:06Jay Dyeris that the Jews themselves

1:18:09Jay Dyerhad it correct

1:18:10Jay Dyerwhen even though they had the written text,

1:18:13Jay Dyerthey had the oral tradition,

1:18:16Jay Dyerthey did not believe in sola scriptura.

1:18:19Jay DyerI think that's pretty

1:18:20Jay Dyereasy to demonstrate, and so when Jesus is preaching and doing his ministry,

1:18:25Jay Dyeryou know, he refers to the oral traditions. He refers to things that are correct in oral tradition,

1:18:32Jay Dyeras well as the written text,

1:18:34Jay Dyerand as well as rebuking the nonconsistent

1:18:38Jay Dyeraccretions

1:18:39Jay Dyerand replacements

1:18:40Jay Dyerof bad traditions. So there's the written texts, there's the oral tradition,

1:18:44Jay Dyerand then there's the false tradition,

1:18:46Jay Dyerand Jesus, I think, speaks of all of those. And so Jesus himself, I don't believe, taught and thought in the sense of sola scriptura. And we get in the New Testament, when we come to Paul's epistles, as I gave you multiple examples,

1:19:00Jay DyerPaul continues to say not just in second Thessalonians, but throughout

1:19:04Jay Dyerthe epistles to Timothy, that he wants Timothy to pass on the entire

1:19:10Jay Dyerthe

1:19:12Jay Dyerentire

1:19:13Jay Dyerdeposit that he heard in the presence of many witnesses for three years to

1:19:19Jay Dyerthose who Timothy would lay hands on, and thus there would be, in my view, an apostolic succession.

1:19:24Jay DyerSo I think the

1:19:27Jay DyerPauline letters themselves beyond even second Thessalonians two fifteen had the standing injunction to pass on the oral tradition.

1:19:34Jay DyerWhen we get into the post apostolic period,

1:19:36Jay Dyerwhat we find is that there was not any explicit

1:19:40Jay Dyerlist of how to do the worship services in the church. This itself, I think, is an implicit refutation of the reformed view as a whole, but particularly in regard to the regulative principle of worship, because if you know the reformed faith, typically it's not just a question of sola scriptura, sola scriptura is hammered home when it comes to not worshiping God in a way other than his written text mandate.

1:20:06Jay DyerSo my challenge there is, well, it seems, it stands to reason that God would have laid down then

1:20:12Jay Dyeran explicit

1:20:14Jay Dyerwritten way that the church should and would do liturgical worship, and yet we do not have that. There is no New Testament writing or doctrine

1:20:23Jay Dyerabout how to conduct the church's worship services and yet the reform tradition hammers

1:20:29Jay Dyerthe fact that Nadab and Abihu are examples of those who would try to innovate and come up with humanly devised

1:20:36Jay Dyerways to worship God. Now guess what, in the early church there's not a single historian

1:20:41Jay Dyeror scholar of the tradition of liturgy, right, of liturgical

1:20:46Jay Dyerhistorians, and I could give you a list of multiple ones like Hugh Wybrew, Williams and Anstall,

1:20:51Jay Dyeretc,

1:20:52Jay Dyerwho talk about the fact that the earliest days of the church

1:20:55Jay Dyerdid not have a canon of scripture,

1:20:58Jay Dyerand yet they had, whatever writings they had in the various seas,

1:21:02Jay Dyerthe ability to worship in a pattern, a liturgy, and in fact in many of Paul's epistles,

1:21:08Jay Dyermany exodusian scholars from multiple traditions admit that Paul in many places is actually citing liturgical hymns and liturgical worship elements in his New Testament epistles. So what that shows us is that we do not have a pattern of worship

1:21:23Jay Dyerother than what is in the temple and synagogue systems that the church adopted

1:21:29Jay Dyerand then put into what are called Apostolic

1:21:32Jay DyerLiturgies.

1:21:33Jay DyerSome of these in their

1:21:36Jay Dyerseed form still exist today. Guess where you can find those? They're called Orthodox Liturgies. When you go to the Orthodox Liturgy, when you see the Liturgy of Saint Mark, when see you the liturgy of Saint Basil, when you see the liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom,

1:21:49Jay Dyerwhen you go to the Latin Rite and you see the liturgy of Saint Peter,

1:21:53Jay Dyerthose are all ancient

1:21:54Jay Dyerpatterns of worship

1:21:56Jay Dyerthat are not explicit in Scripture and yet are laid down in apostolic churches,

1:22:02Jay Dyeras even many Protestant theologians and scholars have admitted.

1:22:07Jay DyerParticularly, for example,

1:22:09Jay DyerPhilip Schaff in his famous history of the church, he lists the apostolic

1:22:13Jay Dyersuccession of the bishops of Rome.

1:22:15Jay DyerSo there you can see from a famous Protestant scholar, one of the most famous works of Protestant church history, the admission of,

1:22:23Jay Dyerat the see of Rome, successors of bishops. And guess what, it's not any different anywhere else, because this is the pattern that Paul laid down to Timothy.

1:22:30Jay DyerSo I say all that to point out that when we actually go and read Protestant scholars like

1:22:36Jay DyerF. F. Bruce's book on the Canon of Scripture, or when we read Lee McDonald's book, The Formation of the Canon, what we see is an admission from

1:22:45Jay Dyerprominent classic Protestant evangelical scholars,

1:22:49Jay Dyerthat the church's liturgy

1:22:52Jay Dyeris one of the easiest examples of tradition

1:22:55Jay Dyerthat played a key role

1:22:58Jay Dyerin determining

1:22:59Jay Dyerthe canon of scripture.

1:23:01Jay DyerAnd one way we know that is what's called lectionaries. Lectionaries were the daily readings in the apostolic season churches,

1:23:09Jay Dyerwhere you would walk in the various days of the week in the churches, in the first, second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth centuries,

1:23:16Jay Dyerand you would hear

1:23:18Jay Dyerthe organized readings of the scriptures

1:23:21Jay Dyerin accordance with the saint of that day, the lives of the saints, and the liturgical textual readings that day. Guess what? If you go to Orthodox Church and you go throughout the year, you will see and hear the exact same thing.

1:23:34Jay DyerSo what we have is, in the church today, the exact same pattern and expression

1:23:40Jay Dyerof the way the church worshipped in the first, second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth centuries,

1:23:45Jay Dyerand what you learn as well when you look at the history of the canon is that it's debated for many centuries.

1:23:51Jay DyerSix centuries from the orthodox vantage point, because of course we don't just accept de facto what Rome says,

1:23:58Jay Dyerwe look at the ecumenical canons and councils,

1:24:01Jay Dyerand it's the sixth council for us that has the sort of final statement on what the canon of scripture is. So for the orthodox church, when we look at this, and we look at for example, Saint Athanasius

1:24:12Jay Dyergoing and convincing

1:24:13Jay DyerRome

1:24:15Jay Dyerto include Hebrews

1:24:17Jay Dyerand Revelation in the canon,

1:24:20Jay Dyerwe see that the formation of the canon itself

1:24:23Jay Dyeris nothing like my opponent

1:24:26Jay Dyerexclaims,

1:24:27Jay Dyeror claims and exclaims

1:24:29Jay Dyerand assumes.

1:24:30Jay DyerRight? The whole presentation

1:24:32Jay Dyerwas totally,

1:24:33Jay Dyertotally out of accord with the actual admitted

1:24:36Jay DyerProtestant

1:24:37Jay Dyerhistorical

1:24:38Jay Dyerapproach to the formation of the canon. I'm not aware of any Protestant scholars that, in fact there's a whole chapter on Athanasius doing that very thing

1:24:48Jay Dyerto the church of Rome to convince them to include Hebrews in the apocalypse. Now if that's the case, then my opponent who kept setting God's sovereignty over against the instrument of the church, here's a key example from the providential history of the church where Athanasius,

1:25:04Jay Dyeras an instrument of God's providence,

1:25:06Jay Dyergoes to Rome and convinces them of these disputed books to be included in the canon. So the very thing that he's asking for, I'm gonna give the example that Lee MacDonald covers in that whole chapter in his book, that yeah, Athanasius

1:25:19Jay Dyerconvinces Rome. He convinces the pope to include these books in the canon because the East accepted those books.

1:25:26Jay DyerSo moving on,

1:25:27Jay DyerI think that a lot of his argumentation was premised on the presupposition that

1:25:32Jay Dyerthe

1:25:33Jay Dyerword of God equals

1:25:35Jay Dyerwritten text. My whole reply

1:25:38Jay Dyerto this was just simply that that's not true. The word of God equals written text and oral tradition, both, and I gave multiple examples, in fact,

1:25:46Jay Dyerhe asked for, in regards specifically

1:25:49Jay Dyerto the Thessalonians,

1:25:50Jay Dyerhe said can you produce

1:25:52Jay Dyerany oral tradition that would be in accord with what Paul wrote to the Thessalonians in second Thessalonians two fifteen about the oral tradition. Yeah, I would be happy to, it's called the Church of Thessaloniki,

1:26:03Jay Dyerthe Orthodox Church in Thessaloniki

1:26:06Jay Dyeris the same Orthodox Church that Paul wrote to in Thessalonians.

1:26:10Jay DyerThessaloniki.

1:26:11Jay DyerWe have a succession

1:26:14Jay Dyerof the bishops

1:26:15Jay Dyerof Thessaloniki

1:26:16Jay Dyerback to exactly what Paul is writing about. So you want an example? Yes, it's actually a church over in Greece in Thessaloniki,

1:26:24Jay Dyerfather Peter hears is over there a lot.

1:26:27Jay DyerSo there you go, there's one example and they have a liturgy there, and that liturgy is fundamentally no different than it was in this apostolic period.

1:26:35Jay DyerSo there's one response to that objection that he asked. So moving on, I would point out that

1:26:41Jay Dyerhe mentioned, I

1:26:43Jay Dyerwanna highlight this not because I think that it necessarily disproves all of Protestantism, but it is worth again reemphasizing

1:26:50Jay Dyerthat

1:26:52Jay Dyerour friend is not in communion with all of the people that he claims

1:26:57Jay Dyerare part of the Westminster Confession. So he believes London Baptist Confession, but the London Baptist Confession is literally a copy paste

1:27:04Jay Dyerjob that just deletes the sections about infant baptism.

1:27:07Jay DyerSo again,

1:27:08Jay Dyerto say, oh I believe the London Baptist Confession and you could also look to the Westminster Confession, is kind of disingenuous when it comes to the fact that those two groups, at least historically,

1:27:18Jay Dyerkilled each other.

1:27:20Jay DyerYes, Calvinists,

1:27:21Jay DyerBaptists, Lutherans,

1:27:23Jay DyerPresbyterians,

1:27:25Jay DyerAnglicans,

1:27:26Jay Dyerthey've not typically been good buddies, they've killed each other. So the idea that they're just sort of in this loose confederation

1:27:32Jay Dyerof reformation is simply not true.

1:27:35Jay DyerMoving on,

1:27:37Jay DyerI want to also mention again that I think that the quotes from Augustine

1:27:42Jay Dyerdo not prove anything close to what he's saying, they're quote minds [mines], because there's countless places where Augustine consistently references tradition,Corrected

1:27:50Jay Dyerhas a totally different canon from our friend,

1:27:52Jay Dyerdoes not teach anything like what

1:27:55Jay Dyerthe Baptist church teaches, the reformed Baptist church teaches. We know that Augustine was a bishop, we know that he taught

1:28:00Jay Dyerrelics, he taught all the things that we believe, so he's one of our guys, that's all I'm trying to say. So I don't see how he's going to

1:28:07Jay Dyerafford you any evidence at all.

1:28:10Jay DyerMoving on, I would say that

1:28:13Jay DyerI never heard a

1:28:15Jay Dyerconvincing response to the question of how you know that you actually have the right canon, and in fact I proposed the situation where hypothetically

1:28:23Jay DyerI could come along and

1:28:26Jay Dyerdisagree and come up with my own canon, and that's actually what we see in the history of Protestantism, and I don't see on what basis he would have a problem with that if it's a fallible list of books, and so when I asked him where the infallible list is, and he said that it's in God's mind, and then he compared that to me writing various books,

1:28:44Jay Dyerit's a false analogy because the actual process of the history of the canon doesn't match up to the way that I write books, right? So if I wrote books and taught a bunch of stuff,

1:28:53Jay Dyerand then I had a bunch of like disciples in a cult around me or something like that, and then in the next few centuries

1:28:59Jay Dyerthey collected together,

1:29:01Jay Dyerright, and I gave them the authority to determine what my books were and what I said, that might be a better analogy because that's what the church is, right? Acts two is in accordance with what's in John fourteen fifteen sixteen about Jesus

1:29:16Jay Dyerteaching that the coming of the Holy Spirit will be such that the church will be empowered,

1:29:20Jay Dyerthe church will have the same presence of the Holy Spirit that she had at that time, at Pentecost,

1:29:26Jay Dyerright, the

1:29:27Jay Dyerspirit didn't leave,

1:29:29Jay Dyerbut what I hear in the reformed faith, and I know because I used to be reformed,

1:29:33Jay Dyeris a church that is

1:29:35Jay Dyerin like, propositional realm. It's not an actual historical entity because that thing failed. That church of the first six centuries, he said, was puffed up and bragged, and presumably failed because he's not in that church, right? I mean I can go read the first six centuries of the church fathers and see what they taught, they taught baptismal regeneration, they taught the real presence, they taught the kind of scripture that he rejects,

1:29:59Jay Dyerthey taught that the church has the authority to bind people's consciences in the councils and in synodality,

1:30:05Jay Dyerthey had an episcopate,

1:30:07Jay Dyerthey practiced in the baptism, they practiced all these things that he rejects and thinks are corruptions and failures,

1:30:12Jay Dyerso at a fundamental level from his position, the church completely failed,

1:30:16Jay Dyerand I don't see how that's in accordance with Matthew sixteen

1:30:19Jay Dyersixteen to 18, which says that the church,

1:30:21Jay Dyeras a visible body and institution

1:30:24Jay Dyerfounded on the apostles and their successors, he who hears you hears me, Jesus says, that it would just fall apart, and yet, but they got the canon right. Oh and they got the deed of Jesus right, mean they got that, oh they got the trinity right,

1:30:37Jay Dyerbut everything else, they're totally wrong, like they just failed. It was a giant failure,

1:30:42Jay Dyerbut good news,

1:30:43Jay Dyerin the reformation

1:30:45Jay DyerLuther comes and he saves and rescues the true gospel. Now in Eustitia Dei by Alistair Magrath,

1:30:52Jay DyerMagrath admits that prior to Luther, no one taught Luther's version of sola scriptura, excuse me, of the solas basically, and he's talking about justification, but I think we can extend that to the other solas as well. We don't see that in the church fathers, that is

1:31:10Jay Dyera totally missing, right? And that's why the simplest way to demonstrate that is that

1:31:15Jay Dyerour friend Pedro,

1:31:16Jay DyerJames White, any of these people, they aren't in the Orthodox Church.

1:31:20Jay DyerThey're not in communion with any

1:31:22Jay Dyerlinked historical group at all, because obviously they think those groups have failed and fallen away,

1:31:28Jay Dyerand yet what we constantly see is a reliance on

1:31:33Jay Dyerbut they got the canon right, but they got the deed of Christ right, but I like Nicaea, oh but let me reinterpret

1:31:39Jay Dyerthe Nicene Creed

1:31:41Jay Dyerwhen it talks about I believe in one holy Catholic and apostolic church.

1:31:45Jay DyerSo it's really just a ruse, right? And I'm not trying to be mean, but I'm just saying Protestantism as a ruse, I'm not trying to implicate our friends. So moving on as I as I close,

1:31:55Jay DyerI would say that

1:31:57Jay Dyerone thing that he said that was, again, I'm not trying to be mean, but he said the holy spirit is a part of the Godhead. No, fundamental Trinitarian theology

1:32:05Jay Dyerdoes not hold that God has parts.

1:32:07Jay DyerSo

1:32:08Jay Dyerdon't ever say God has parts. So I think that Trinity one zero one would tell you God doesn't have parts, there's no Godhead parts.

1:32:17Jay DyerYou

1:32:18Jay Dyerhad studied the church fathers, you would know that the trinity comes first. So maybe instead of assumptions and presuppositions about sola scriptura justification,

1:32:28Jay Dyermaybe you should study

1:32:29Jay Dyerlike Christology first and the trinitarian theology first, because you talked about God's providence. What's interesting is that in

1:32:37Jay DyerGod's providence,

1:32:38Jay Dyerbefore the canon of scripture, the church was operating with a liturgy

1:32:42Jay Dyerand was determining

1:32:44Jay Dyerin her formulations

1:32:46Jay Dyerthe trinity and Christology

1:32:48Jay Dyerbefore there was a publicly acknowledged

1:32:51Jay Dyercompleted closed canon of scripture. So we operate that way, you operate in the inverse way, in terms of how the Reformation Protestant churches think about Christ and salvation. I think that's a big problem here.

1:33:07Jay DyerHe said,

1:33:09Jay Dyerthe church is an institution

1:33:11Jay Dyerof man.

1:33:12Jay DyerI don't think the church is an institution of man. The church is an institution made up of men that has a divine origin. I believe the church is the extension of the incarnation

1:33:22Jay Dyerfollowing Paul, because we are the very body, the very limbs, the very eyes, the very hands of Christ himself, Paul says. And that's because the church is a divine institution, it's a theo nustos institution,

1:33:35Jay Dyerit's a theanthropic

1:33:36Jay Dyerinstitution,

1:33:38Jay Dyerjust like

1:33:39Jay DyerChrist Himself is theanthropic

1:33:41Jay Dyerbecause he's the God man. So his body shares in the same deification and power that he himself possessed, his body the church.

1:33:49Jay DyerTo say that the church loses

1:33:51Jay Dyerits fundamental constitution,

1:33:53Jay Dyerpower, and spirit, would be to essentially say that Christ's incarnation does not achieve its effect, and Christ is now divided,

1:34:00Jay Dyerand a Nestorian ecclesiology

1:34:02Jay Dyeris the result. So by default,

1:34:05Jay Dyeryour Christology is Nestorian as a reformed person, which 90% of the time they are, and your ecclesiology is an historian. So I can just simply say that that's another way to refute this whole thing.

1:34:21Jay DyerOddly you admitted that the you said the church is the pillar and ground of truth, but the church as the pillar holds up God's word.

1:34:29Jay DyerSo your interpretation

1:34:30Jay Dyerof that was the inverse, the opposite of what it actually says. So you read it like

1:34:36Jay Dyerwe have to remember what the church holds up, which is the word of God,

1:34:41Jay Dyerand so the church is actually built on the word of God, the written text,

1:34:45Jay Dyerand so you reverse the meaning. So I just had to call you out on that. Think that the point of that text is the very opposite of the reading that you gave it.

1:34:52Jay DyerSecond Timothy three sixteen about the, ability of the scriptures to make a man,

1:34:58Jay Dyergood sufficient and ready for every good work,

1:35:01Jay Dyerdoes not prove sola scriptura, and I give many examples of how that's the case.

1:35:05Jay DyerThe fact that it's able to make you wise and

1:35:08Jay Dyerso forth, the text doesn't mention anything about gathering together in church,

1:35:13Jay Dyertaking the sacraments,

1:35:16Jay Dyerprayer,

1:35:17Jay Dyerso would we conclude that that's literally all that's necessary, is what's listed in the text, and so I don't have to pray, don't have to go to church? Well, on your reading of the text, that would seem to follow, which is absurd. So in the context of the rest of scripture,

1:35:31Jay Dyerthere's not even a new testament canon completed yet. So how could this text prove sola scriptura when it's prior to the New Testament even fully being written? John hasn't written his apocalypse yet.

1:35:41Jay DyerSo again, sola scriptura I think presupposes

1:35:45Jay Dyermultiple things, and primarily my argument was about

1:35:49Jay Dyerthe epistemic

1:35:50Jay Dyerpreconditions

1:35:51Jay Dyerfor going to the text. I want to know how you have the right list, which you said is fallible,

1:35:57Jay Dyerand then you turn around and said, but that is the actual list is in God's mind, which we don't have access to, but I know that my list is right because it's the word of God. That is a circle and so appealing to the text doesn't answer, it just presupposes a thing that I'm asking about, which is the contents of the text itself.

1:36:15Jay DyerSo I don't think I ever heard an answer to that specific objection,

1:36:20Jay Dyerand I think that that's why

1:36:22Jay Dyerthe case for

1:36:24Jay Dyermy position, the Orthodox Church, its tradition, its liturgy, the context

1:36:28Jay Dyerfor how scripture is known and factual,

1:36:31Jay Dyerhistorical,

1:36:32Jay Dyerundisputable

1:36:34Jay Dyertruth

1:36:35Jay Dyerthat the church used her liturgy and her tradition to determine the canon, which she essentially

1:36:40Jay Dyerproves my position.

1:36:45PedroAlright. I'll get in mine.

1:36:47PedroAlright. Let's start with a quote from Clement.

1:36:50PedroMy opponent here tonight said that, in the first six centuries of the church, no one believed what we believe. But, let's let's let's try and test that really quick with this quote. It's from, the first letter of Clement,

1:37:03Pedroto the church at Corinth, section 45, and it states like this. Be competitive and zealous, brothers,

1:37:10Pedrobut about the things that relate to salvation.

1:37:14PedroYou have searched

1:37:15Pedrothe holy scriptures,

1:37:17Pedrowhich are true,

1:37:18Pedrowhich were given by the holy spirit.

1:37:21PedroYou know that nothing unrighteous

1:37:23Pedroor counterfeit

1:37:24Pedrois written in them.

1:37:27PedroThis debate was supposed

1:37:29Pedroto be about,

1:37:31Pedroasking

1:37:32Pedrowhat is the rule of faith actually for in its practice. And I think I need to restate the questions that actually make it operate to make sure that comes across correctly.

1:37:42PedroWhat and those are the these are the questions. What tradition do you want to oppose impose on us that cannot be found in scripture?

1:37:51PedroSo far, we got the tradition, but we never had it solidly grounded in scripture.

1:37:57PedroBy what standard does the creators of this tradition claim their authority?

1:38:02PedroEven though I I was trying to lead us to it, I never saw anything,

1:38:07Pedroreferencing anything else

1:38:09Pedroaside from the scriptures that, you know, were charged to Timothy by the apostle Paul.

1:38:14PedroI

1:38:16Pedronever saw I never saw any of that come forward.

1:38:18PedroIn this,

1:38:20Pedropractice, law, rule, doctrine, or dogma dogma,

1:38:24Pedrois it contradictory to scripture? And I think this is really the key here. We're asking,

1:38:29Pedroare we going to be, in contradiction to God's revealed words? I think this is what separates us

1:38:36Pedrofrom, the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Mormons,

1:38:40Pedroevery every cult group that you think of, even the even the Catholics.

1:38:44PedroAnd,

1:38:45PedroI I don't know. I was accused of quote mining, but here here here's another quote from Augustine to see if I'm actually taking it out of context on your own, ladies and gentlemen. Go and read it. It is this. Whoever descends from the sacred scriptures,

1:38:59Pedroeven if they are found in all places in which the church is designated,

1:39:03Pedroare not the church. Ecclesia,

1:39:07PedroCaput volume,

1:39:09Pedrothat is four. Translation by volume

1:39:13Pedrooh, it's actually volume three,

1:39:14Pedropage one zero nine to one ten.

1:39:17PedroWe have another one. Let no one say to me what hath Donateness said, what hath perimen said,

1:39:25Pedrowhat hath Pontius,

1:39:26Pedroor any of them. For we must not allow even Catholic bishops

1:39:31Pedroif at any time per chance they are in error, to hold any opinion contrary

1:39:37Pedroto the canonical scriptures of God.

1:39:40PedroWe're we're simply asking our our our friends here on the orthodox on the other side of the

1:39:45Pedroto, you know,

1:39:48Pedroexamine their traditions through the lens of scripture. We're not saying you need to throw away all your tradition. We have traditions.

1:39:55PedroBut the difference, I think, here between our two parties is that we are able to take tradition

1:40:02Pedroand examine it through the biblical lens and not the other way around.

1:40:06PedroAnd then finally, because I wanna keep it short and concise,

1:40:11Pedrowe here in this conversation,

1:40:14PedroI think, never actually got to,

1:40:18Pedroyou know, examine

1:40:20Pedrowhat or or or get a a direct admission of

1:40:24Pedrowill the church be able

1:40:26Pedroto succeed

1:40:28Pedrowithout the outpouring of the Holy Spirit? I wish I would've asked that question before. I think I did in a different form, but I didn't. Because my position, like, my opponent tries to misquote me, but I'm thankful that I made a clear opening statement.

1:40:43PedroMy position is that the church succeeds

1:40:46Pedrodependent

1:40:47Pedroon the sovereign,

1:40:49Pedroand I totally agree. It's not a part.

1:40:51PedroThe Holy Spirit is completely God, so he got me there. I think I may have misspoken.

1:40:56PedroThe Holy Spirit is, holy God and therefore is also sovereign, but is dependent on the Holy Spirit whether or not we successfully

1:41:04Pedroget scripture.

1:41:05PedroThat's all I would say in on the basis of where scripture comes from. And, I would close it there.

1:41:15PedroI'm

1:41:17Pedrosorry?

1:41:17Jay DyerAre you okay to do the super chat q and a?

1:41:20PedroOh, for sure. For sure.

1:41:21Jay DyerK.

1:41:21PedroCan we pull it on screen?

1:41:24PedroOr you can just read it.

1:41:25Jay DyerTrust you. No, just read them. I don't get that fancy.

1:41:28PedroChill. Okay,

1:41:31Jay Dyerso

1:41:32Jay Dyerif you guys would, be sure to hit like and share and I want to thank Pedro for coming on. It was a lively debate, I enjoyed it quite a bit, and

1:41:41Jay Dyerit was civil, it was friendly, it was heated,

1:41:44Jay Dyerit was good. So

1:41:45Jay Dyerwe'll go with the super chats now, and if you want to super chat, ask a question, it's through Streamlabs,

1:41:51Jay Dyerso if you guys know did I not put the

1:41:54Jay DyerStreamlabs link, did I? Could one of you mods hook me up there and put the Streamlabs link in

1:42:02Jay Dyerfor us? Yeah, thank you.

1:42:04Jay DyerExposing powerful lies.

1:42:06Jay DyerMe copy that and add that

1:42:08Pedroto

1:42:10Pedrothe show description here.

1:42:13Jay DyerOh man, that's not right.

1:42:18PedroAnd then we'll get to the super just one second. Let me get this link.

1:42:29Jay DyerAlright. So I'm only I'm only gonna be taking the super chats, and you can direct them to whoever you want, me or him. Please keep them obviously within the bounds of what's acceptable

1:42:38Jay Dyeron the platform.

1:42:39Jay DyerAnything crazy won't be reading it. Green Feathers for $5 says,

1:42:43Jay DyerPedro is not a theologian.

1:42:46Jay DyerVulpes for $5 says, thank you Pedro, God bless you Jay.

1:42:50Jay DyerPlease both pray for us in Australia.

1:42:54PedroAmen. If I have to say that,

1:42:57Pedrohave actually been praying for Australia. It's crazy what's happening there. It's pretty stupid.

1:43:02Jay DyerGreen feathers for $5.

1:43:04Jay DyerQuote, gotcha, Pedro.

1:43:07Jay DyerGooster, $5.

1:43:09Jay DyerPedro should take time to reflect on what is actually being said by the Orthodox.

1:43:14Jay DyerIf incorrect, calling the body of Christ his, theanthropic church, the traditions of men,

1:43:21Jay Dyergo would be along the line toes the line of blasphemy.

1:43:24Jay DyerDavid, five dollars. You're both smart and thank you

1:43:27Pedrofor Well, can I can I respond to that

1:43:28Jay Dyerreally quick? Sure.

1:43:29PedroYeah.

1:43:31PedroHonestly,

1:43:32PedroI have, in my some private conversations, been actually talking about, or talking to,

1:43:37PedroOrthodox men. And

1:43:40Pedroif I had to say every time I interact with a group, I'm primarily concerned on the identity of Christ because I think that, obviously, that's the way anyone is saved. And the christology is there's is solid. So if anything, I would not be combative about, like, the identity of Christ, which is particularly

1:43:57Pedropivotal to

1:43:58Pedroa person's salvation within the Orthodox Church. It might I haven't I haven't dove in deep enough, obviously, to get into other things, but I would I would not say outright every tradition in the Orthodox Church is evil and, you know, contradicts the word of God.

1:44:12Jay DyerOne thing that the Christology

1:44:14Jay Dyerleads to is the impossibility

1:44:16Jay Dyerof Calvinism.

1:44:18Jay DyerSo if you're going to be a Calvinist, you can't believe what's in Ephesus

1:44:22Jay Dyerat all.

1:44:25Jay DyerMoving on,

1:44:29Jay DyerDavid no. David says for $5, you're both very smart. Thank you for presenting your sides. That was a learning experience for me. Thank you very much, David. I just read the text, $5.

1:44:39Jay DyerCould the people outside of the council Jerusalem in Acts 15

1:44:43Jay Dyerhave just told that council,

1:44:45Jay Dyersorry. That isn't my reading of the text?

1:44:50Jay DyerI think that's a question.

1:44:52PedroYeah. I see I see the question. I would say,

1:44:59PedroI would wanna read it and go over it more so I would pass it.

1:45:04Jay DyerI would say no. So boomer man $1.02 $31.

1:45:07Jay DyerPedro, would you please inform us of an example

1:45:10Jay Dyerof you or your

1:45:12Jay Dyertradition viewing the tradition through the lens of scripture?

1:45:17PedroSola scriptura is in fact a tradition

1:45:20Pedrosaying this is the word of God inexplicably.

1:45:25PedroThat's the presupposition that we're writing on. It is Theot Nousios. Right? Therefore,

1:45:30Pedrono other,

1:45:32Pedroauthority in the church can come above it. And when it comes to an objective meaning,

1:45:38Pedrothat's it. Boom.

1:45:45Jay DyerLet me see. The next part of that question was,

1:45:49Jay Dyerwhat is the mechanism

1:45:52Jay Dyerin history that you appeal to to know the canon?

1:45:56PedroTo know the canon, like I said before in my opening statement, is

1:46:01Pedrodependent on the purposes and will of God.

1:46:04Jay DyerK. How does the sovereign will of God canon?

1:46:07PedroWell, he wants me to know something, so he will communicate it to me.

1:46:12Jay DyerK. But but

1:46:13PedroSo we believe in Calvinism. Right? When he created us Hold on. Okay. Sorry. But My bad.

1:46:17Jay DyerGo for you say his will is for us to know something,

1:46:22Jay Dyeryou said earlier that that's a truth that you derive from scripture, right?

1:46:27PedroWell that's a truth of reality, right? I don't believe No, that

1:46:30Jay Dyerno,

1:46:32Jay Dyeris equivocating here,

1:46:34Jay Dyerdo you

1:46:35Jay Dyerknow God's will for you?

1:46:37PedroAppealing to reality doesn't Well, God exists. Right?

1:46:41PedroHe's the sovereign creator.

1:46:43PedroRight?

1:46:43Jay DyerOkay. But do you know that

1:46:44PedroWe get that we get that through so so here's a good conversation actually.

1:46:48Jay DyerIs the origin of that knowledge?

1:46:49PedroWell, let me oh, the origin of the knowledge that God exists is in general revelation as opposed to salvation.

1:46:55PedroHis

1:46:56Jay Dyerwill for you.

1:46:56PedroNo. No. No. Well, think about this. Think about this. There's a general revelation and there's a

1:47:02Pedrosalvation revelation. Correct?

1:47:04Jay DyerYou're avoiding the question because you know I'm asking you about something that you learned from scripture,

1:47:09Jay DyerI you never answered

1:47:12Jay Dyerwhat is prescriptural,

1:47:14Jay Dyeran epistemic question about how you know.

1:47:18PedroWell, you don't you don't

1:47:20Pedrohow do I say this? There is a god, right, who maintains and creates everything.

1:47:27PedroRight? That can be seen throughout general revelation without the bible. Right?

1:47:31Jay DyerOkay. But

1:47:32PedroLike, if I look around

1:47:34Pedroif I look around if I look around, there is order here.

1:47:38PedroRight? This is not just random. I didn't come from the primordial goo like the atheists say or something like that. There is a god who created us with a purposeful a purpose.

1:47:47Jay DyerOkay. So general so you're gonna appeal to general revelation to know the kenic. Is that what you're saying?

1:47:52PedroNo. I'm gonna appeal to general revelation just to know that there is a god. Right?

1:47:57Jay DyerOkay.

1:47:57PedroSo Salvific salvific

1:47:59Pedrorevelation

1:48:00Pedrotells me that God is sovereign. Right?

1:48:03Jay DyerOkay. So wait a minute. And now I'm giving you so you're appealing to natural theology to say that there's a God? Is that a God without any content?

1:48:11PedroI'm appealing to the fact that there we exist.

1:48:14PedroRight?

1:48:16PedroThere has to be a mover. The unmoved mover is God. We know we we agree on

1:48:20Jay Dyerthis. So your god is Aristotle's god?

1:48:22PedroNo. No. No. Our our god is the god

1:48:25Jay Dyerthat's scripture. Is Aristotle.

1:48:26Jay DyerThat's his god.

1:48:27PedroWoah. Oh, okay. So did

1:48:30Pedrois there any cause that brought forth god in your worldview? No.

1:48:34PedroNeither is mine. We know that he comes from the meta metaphysical.

1:48:37PedroHe is eternal, everlasting.

1:48:39PedroThere's nothing that caused god. He is just an eternal I

1:48:42Jay Dyerdon't think, you know, he comes from the metaphysical. That doesn't make any sense.

1:48:45PedroNo. No. No. No. He he is the metaphysical because

1:48:49Pedrowe know that he embodies eternity.

1:48:52Jay DyerSo he is the metaphysical

1:48:54Jay Dyeris a nonsensical re it's a reaffirmation of what the statement says.

1:48:58PedroWell, God occupies all of eternity. Correct? We believe he is omniscient in all places at all time. Correct? Or, omnipresent.

1:49:06PedroSorry.

1:49:06Jay DyerSo is this the same God of the Muslims?

1:49:10Jay DyerNo.

1:49:12Jay DyerOkay. So it's

1:49:13Jay Dyera

1:49:14Jay Dyergeneral revelation natural theology god.

1:49:19Jay DyerOkay.

1:49:20Jay DyerAnd it's not aerosol

1:49:21PedroIf

1:49:22Pedrowe exit

1:49:23Pedrowe are you are sounding sounding kind I'm not trying to be you're sounding kind of like an atheist right now. We know God exists just from creation. Right? There is a general revelation,

1:49:34Pedroand there's

1:49:35Jay Dyera subject of revelation. Premise at all.

1:49:37PedroI don't believe that. So

1:49:39Jay DyerI don't believe in natural theology like many reformed people.

1:49:42PedroSo so really okay. So really quick.

1:49:45PedroThe reprobate, the non believer. Right? You believe him when he says, no. There is no God. And I know there's no God. You believe him when he says that.

1:49:54Jay DyerThis is all non sequiturs because all No.

1:49:56PedroNo. No. No. It's direct. Does the non believer really think that does the non believer really think that there is no God?

1:50:03Jay DyerDoesn't follow from my question.

1:50:04PedroLying or like

1:50:06Jay DyerIt doesn't follow from my questioning that I think there's no God because I'm asking a question that an atheist asks, it's a basic philosophical

1:50:14Pedropoint.

1:50:15PedroIf I ask the question that I'm doesn't

1:50:18Jay Dyermean that I'm an atheist.

1:50:20Jay DyerAll I'm asking is that on your position, when you are appealing to general revelation,

1:50:25Jay Dyerfirst what you said is an unmoved mover. I mean, that's not our God, the Christian

1:50:29PedroGod Well, there's no causation

1:50:31Pedroto God.

1:50:33PedroThat's what that means.

1:50:35Jay DyerOkay. But unmoved mover is the way Aristotle describes God, and that's not the Christian God. So I'm asking you how you Okay. Know

1:50:43PedroMy bad. On the unmove mover, abandon unmove mover from your mind. There is no cause to our God. Wait a Correct?

1:50:52Jay DyerSo don't use the argument you just used.

1:50:55PedroWell, we're we're we're

1:50:57Pedrowe're reaching a a roadblock

1:50:59Pedroin the whole argumentation. I'm just allowing the premise saying this makes no sense.

1:51:04Jay DyerSo this

1:51:04PedroWe we don't know. And I'm saying, okay. Cool. Allow the premise then, yes, that that's a bad way to phrase it. This is still an eternal god who created us. Right?

1:51:14Jay DyerK. Is it a personal god?

1:51:16PedroYes.

1:51:18Jay DyerIs there a generic concept of person that's not father, son, and spirit?

1:51:23Jay DyerNo.

1:51:25Jay DyerSo you're arguing for the trinity?

1:51:27PedroYes.

1:51:28Jay DyerOkay. So isn't that

1:51:29PedroThe trinity the

1:51:30Pedrothe trinity that's like

1:51:32Jay Dyerthe the

1:51:33Pedrobeing the and the persons of God are all eternal. They were not created.

1:51:38Jay DyerIsn't the doctrine of Trinity a doctrine of revelation?

1:51:43PedroYes.

1:51:44Jay DyerOkay.

1:51:44Jay DyerSo it's not general revelation?

1:51:48PedroWell, general revelation

1:51:49Pedrojust knows that you know that a God exists.

1:51:52Jay DyerK. And I asked you, is that god

1:51:54PedroAs a result, just from looking out in the

1:51:56Jay Dyersaid, is he personal? And you said, yes. Yes. And then you said, is it father, son, holy spirit? So now it's not general revelation anymore.

1:52:04PedroAlright. I I would say move forward.

1:52:06PedroMove forward.

1:52:08Jay DyerK.

1:52:10Jay DyerNext question is,

1:52:13Jay DyerVolpe is $5. Pedro, I'm not sure how much you know of the Old Testament. There's a lot that we do, I think he means as orthodox, that is in the Old Testament. For example,

1:52:24Jay Dyerthere is the petitioning of the mother of the king in,

1:52:28Jay Dyerthe Old Testament.

1:52:29Jay DyerThere's venerating

1:52:30Jay Dyerand healing that occurs by objects such as the bones of Elisha,

1:52:34Jay Dyerand there is liturgical worship in the Old Testament. So I would agree with that. Gotcha.

1:52:40Jay DyerRead Arthur Kessler, $2. Pedro,

1:52:43Jay Dyerhow do you know that the scripture lens that you use

1:52:46Jay Dyerwhen you talked earlier about that lens isn't tainted by your own man made tradition or

1:52:53Jay Dyerfallible because of your human fallen nature?

1:52:57PedroBecause God is able to, in his sovereign, meaning ultimate authority, absolute power, total control, use a crooked stick to make a straight line

1:53:07Jay DyerDo you understand?

1:53:08PedroCommit to people his actual word

1:53:10Jay DyerDo you

1:53:11Pedrounderstand? Which means we can get scripture

1:53:13PedroDo you understand with viable people.

1:53:14Jay DyerSo

1:53:15Jay Dyerif I say to you that I think that's begging the question, do you understand why I say that? I'm not asking if you agree

1:53:22Pedrowith me, but do you understand why I that? I I would go, I don't know. Let's see where let's see where it goes. I don't know. So take us through that line.

1:53:29PedroExplain explain it.

1:53:31Jay DyerWell, what I was trying to get at in the last, series of questions was precisely that. There's a there's a flipping back and forth that occurs between

1:53:39Jay Dyerthe appeals to what you're calling general revelation,

1:53:41Jay Dyerwhich when I dig into it,

1:53:43Jay Dyerseems to then turn back into what's in scripture.

1:53:46Jay DyerSo question was originally about the content of scripture,

1:53:50Jay Dyerand you were like, well, I'm not really going to that. I'm just gonna look over here at the general revelation,

1:53:55Jay Dyerbut the meaning of general revelation actually turns out to be what's in scripture, the trinity.

1:54:00PedroYeah. And and I I think my problem here is the starting point for everyone.

1:54:05PedroThe starting point is the Holy Spirit, the outpouring of the Holy Spirit.

1:54:09Jay DyerK. But you're

1:54:10Pedroequating That that is the starting point.

1:54:12Jay DyerEquating that with the written text, and that's the presupposition that was never demonstrated.

1:54:18PedroEquating it? So the whole well well, just see where the I just need to see where the, fallacy is coming in. The holy spirit the the the outpouring

1:54:27Pedroof the holy spirit is what is responsible for communicating

1:54:32Pedrothe written word

1:54:33Pedroof God

1:54:34Pedroto his elect people.

1:54:36Jay DyerYeah. But that's a non

1:54:37PedroWhere in that statement

1:54:38Jay Dyernon sequitur because nobody disagrees that the Holy Spirit inspired the text of scripture, at least Alright.

1:54:45PedroCan the Holy Spirit error?

1:54:47Jay DyerOf course not.

1:54:49PedroPerfect. So relying

1:54:50Pedroon the plans and purposes of God

1:54:53Pedroin in the Holy Spirit.

1:54:55Jay DyerPresupposition is

1:54:56Pedrothat That's where I source all of my yes,

1:55:00PedroIt's true.

1:55:00Jay DyerBut your presupposition is that that excludes the church after the first century.

1:55:05PedroWell, no. No. No. No. I'm not exclusive. I'm not excluding the church. Right? I'm saying the

1:55:10Jay Dyerchurch But you are.

1:55:11PedroThat's

1:55:12Pedrowhat I'm saying. The church should

1:55:16Pedroboast,

1:55:17Pedroright, and say, it was us who did it. It was us who

1:55:20Jay Dyerdid it.

1:55:20PedroI'm saying it's I'm saying it's the holy spirit who That's

1:55:24Jay Dyerirrelevant to the argument in at hand. It has nothing to do with boasting or not.

1:55:27PedroThat's the core of the argument, though. Where does scripture come from?

1:55:31Jay DyerThat how does that affect the epistemic question at hand?

1:55:34PedroThe ep the epistemic,

1:55:36Pedrothe objective is God. We both believe that.

1:55:40PedroAnd no one can stop his hand.

1:55:42Jay DyerYou know, I don't think

1:55:43PedroI think we're disconnecting.

1:55:44Jay DyerI I don't understand that. Objection and the question. It's not a question of God's sovereignty, it's a question of the historic means by which the canon comes to be.

1:55:53PedroRight. And I put the sovereignty above the historic means.

1:55:57Jay DyerSo when I ask you how you know about the sovereignty of God, you said from general revelation and when I asked you about that it actually turned out to be special

1:56:05PedroWell,

1:56:06Pedroacknowledge that

1:56:07Jay Dyeryou should be sure.

1:56:08Jay DyerSpecial revelation begs the question because it assumes that you have the canon right.

1:56:15PedroI acknowledge

1:56:16Pedrothat the Holy Spirit

1:56:18Pedroused the church in order to communicate

1:56:22PedroGod's revealed will to us.

1:56:24Jay DyerBut you don't you don't believe that because you you reject

1:56:27PedroWhy can I not believe that? Because you reject God's sovereign hand

1:56:30Jay Dyercan use anybody. Reject the canon that the church has. So you don't

1:56:34Pedroactually Sir,

1:56:35Pedrothink about it this way. We have Genesis 50, Isaiah 10, and acts four.

1:56:40Jay DyerYou don't believe in the canon

1:56:42Jay Dyerof scripture that we have. You accept Luther's

1:56:44Jay Dyercanon of scripture, not ours. No. So you don't actually believe that.

1:56:48PedroSir, just think about it this way. Try and try and try and get on this line of thought. Genesis 50, Isaiah 10, Acts four, all examples

1:56:57Pedroof God

1:56:57Jay DyerYou just keep

1:56:58Pedroappealing to people.

1:56:59Jay DyerYou keep backing the clock.

1:57:00PedroI'm just saying I'm just saying it's all examples of using people

1:57:04Pedroin order to implement his will on earth

1:57:06Jay Dyerwithout HIPAA. Should accept I gave the example of Athanasius. You should accept that as an example of God's providence using the church.

1:57:13Jay DyerIt's you that has a problem with God's providence using the church.

1:57:17PedroWell,

1:57:17Pedrowas Athanasius always in, you know, good standing with the church during his time?

1:57:24Jay DyerNo. But that's precisely the point is that he was correct and everyone else was wrong.

1:57:28PedroWhat was his grounding to make him correct and everybody else wrong?

1:57:33Jay DyerIf you read him, he says scripture and tradition.

1:57:36Jay DyerThe very thing that you don't agree with.

1:57:38PedroOkay. So

1:57:41PedroAthonates tradition? Wait. One second.

1:57:43Jay DyerHe has In his festival letters, which

1:57:46Jay Dyeryou should read, he says the Holy Ghost inspired the fathers of Nicaea in their declaration.

1:57:52Jay DyerAnd so anyone who disagrees with Nicaea

1:57:54Jay Dyeris going against the Theo Nustos canon. So you specifically do not believe.

1:58:00PedroWell, let's identify this really quick. The church that he's battling at the time has their traditions,

1:58:06Pedroand Athanasius

1:58:07Pedrohas his traditions.

1:58:08Jay DyerRight? That's totally not true.

1:58:10PedroWell, what where are they arguing?

1:58:12Jay DyerIt's not from.

1:58:12PedroAthanasius said, I'm

1:58:13Jay Dyerarguing scripture. Church that he battled. He battled

1:58:16PedroI'm just

1:58:17Jay DyerHe battled heretics who were within the church who ended up outside the church.

1:58:21PedroI totally agree. I totally agree. And they are outside the church, but they have traditions. Right?

1:58:27Jay DyerThat's begging the the question is whether the traditions are true or false. It's not a question of tradition.

1:58:31PedroPerfect. How do we true how do we how do we identify whether a tradition is true or false? Is it scripture?

1:58:37Jay DyerNo. It's not just scripture, it is scripture and tradition, the tradition of the church. The Theot

1:58:42PedroWell, is well, we all have our traditions.

1:58:44Jay DyerDo you understand much? I'm just repeating what Athanasius says in his festal letter. So it's basically you are disagreeing not with me, but with Athanasius.

1:58:53Jay DyerBecause Athanasius writes festal letters where he says the holy ghost spoke through Nicaea, and anybody who disagrees with Nicaea

1:58:59Jay Dyeris disagreeing with the holy ghost.

1:59:01PedroWell, what if me and you said we have the Holy Ghost, we both have our traditions, right, I have the traditions of Calvinism, I can identify that, and you have the traditions of the Orthodox Church, what's the final point of contact we should go to in order to see whose traditions and who's actually in communion with the Holy Spirit?

1:59:18Jay DyerWell, it's going to be who has the actual true church. Right? Because that's

1:59:23PedroThe church has to do okay.

1:59:25Jay DyerThat's the pillar and that's the pillar and ground of truth, not the written text.

1:59:28PedroBut brother, look here. We have we have a prime example right now. Pope Francis.

1:59:34PedroBrother, we have a prime example right now. Pope Francis.

1:59:37PedroPope Francis.

1:59:38Jay DyerThat is irrelevant to the debate between us.

1:59:40PedroTheir tradition led to that. Correct?

1:59:43Jay DyerOf course not.

1:59:44PedroSo tradition did lead to papal infallibility and it is fact scripture?

1:59:48Jay DyerDo you know what equivocation is? You're equivocating on tradition. You're assuming that because you're saying that because Pope Francis arises from a false tradition,

1:59:57Jay Dyertradition is the problem. That's an equivocation.

1:59:59PedroI'm not saying all tradition is the problem, I'm saying they failed

2:00:01Jay Dyerto identify papacy argument is irrelevant.

2:00:04PedroWell well, I'm trying to show you where the papacy obviously,

2:00:08Pedrothe papacy obviously is irrelevant, I would agree, but also could have been destroyed if they properly used the scriptures as a lens to identify, no, papal infallibility is not a thing, we reject that. We need a multiplicity of elders.

2:00:20Jay DyerNo, again, the history, if you read the apologetic

2:00:24Jay Dyertradition on this issue, right, the opposition to the papacy precisely comes from

2:00:30Jay Dyerviolation of the canonical tradition first and foremost. So the Byzantine lists of the Middle Ages appealed to the tradition of the church in the canons as to why the papacy cannot be true,

2:00:41Jay Dyeras well as textual debates and argumentation.

2:00:44Jay DyerBut the point is that it's not just a question of who has more texts, me versus them, Pope versus Orthodox,

2:00:50Jay Dyerit's a question beyond the text, it's also part of the history of the church, because the church is a historical entity. The church is not a thing that's propositionally just in your head. It's a thing from history. This is this is the issue at root here.

2:01:04Jay DyerLet's move on because we can be here all night, and we can do a part two down the road or

2:01:07Pedrosomething like that, but we gotta For sure. We gotta move on. And hey, I wanna thank you once again. You're a beast. You did two streams tonight. Right?

2:01:15PedroBeast. Nice. I appreciate this.

2:01:18Jay DyerGolden arm $2,007.50

2:01:20Jay Dyerbucks. I don't understand

2:01:22Jay Dyerthe infallible list in God's mind, but it's fallible in man's possession. This makes no sense.

2:01:31PedroI would just say go back to my old opening statement and, review that.

2:01:36PedroYou'll you'll you'll see it's it's right there. Like, I mean,

2:01:40PedroGod knows what he's going to do.

2:01:42PedroIt says even in scripture, we don't know the his ways are above our ways. We don't perfectly know what God can do. What's happening is God is God is in his own Yeah. In his own on his own prerogatives

2:01:55Pedroof his own will, at his own time, he is giving us what is correct.

2:01:59PedroI don't believe that, you know, the bible fell down completely the question. Exhaustively from heaven.

2:02:03Jay DyerThat's begging the question.

2:02:05Jay DyerBecause you're saying that God's will is known from general revelation, I mean, scripture, and that's how we know

2:02:10PedroNo. No. No. I don't didn't say God's will is known from a general revelation. I said God in God's existence is known

2:02:18Jay Dyerin knowledge life. His purpose for me is known. And I asked you the content, where did you get that knowledge from? And you said general revelation.

2:02:27PedroWhere do you get yeah.

2:02:30PedroI think I think I I think I might just be mixed here, but I would just say this firmly, sir.

2:02:35PedroGeneral revelation shows that a god does exist.

2:02:40PedroRight?

2:02:41PedroSalvific revelation comes from the reveal of from the real world god, actually lets you know who that god is. K. Stating what natural

2:02:49Jay Dyertheology is is not a response to the question that I asked.

2:02:53Jay DyerWe'll move on. Orthodox

2:02:55Jay Dyerconvert,

2:02:56Jay Dyer$2. Pedro, have you ever visited an Orthodox church? I'm a recent convert, and I thank God for the church. Study of history and constant prayer were the reason for my conversion. Keep reading the church fathers and seeking Christ. Thank you to you both.

2:03:10PedroI appreciate that, sir. And I would actually like to go to an orthodox church just to obviously

2:03:14Pedroget a fair understanding because,

2:03:17Pedrowhat I will say is I do not, like some people online who just outright, you know, slander,

2:03:24Pedrothe Orthodox Church specifically without even going in properly and doing the the hard work. That's why in my whole argumentation here, I never actually brought up anything of the Orthodox Church because I don't know you guys yet. I I hope in our future conversations I get to know you guys better so I can get a better, grasping of what you believe.

2:03:44Jay DyerFair enough. Chad King, $1. Thank you both. Pedro,

2:03:48Jay DyerI agree with your argumentation except the general

2:03:52Jay Dyerthe general Protestant sola scripture.

2:03:55Jay DyerWhat then? How would I possibly choose

2:03:59Jay Dyerwhich denomination is correct? Would my salvation be at stake based on my interpretation?

2:04:06PedroI think, disco, it it kinda sounds like if I you don't believe what I believe, then you're, totally damned.

2:04:13PedroAnd I think that is a very naive position to take. Obviously, they're you know, they're along the process of sanctification,

2:04:20Pedrothere's different levels of maturity in people's, knowledge. Obviously, I'm green here. This is one of my first big, I think, debates in theology. So I'm not saying that I actually demonstrated perfectly here or would even have the authority to make a judgment call over someone's salvation.

2:04:36PedroYeah.

2:04:37PedroSo I I just wouldn't I I wouldn't do that.

2:04:40Jay DyerMacedonian

2:04:41Jay Dyerrank $11.

2:04:42Jay DyerMacedonia

2:04:43Jay Dyerand Christ are eternal.

2:04:45Jay DyerGolden Arm $2,007.03

2:04:46Jay Dyerdollars. Please

2:04:48Jay Dyerexplain

2:04:50Jay Dyerbegging the question non sequitur and equivocation,

2:04:53Jay Dyerthese might be helpful. Well, just, I mean,

2:04:57Jay Dyerin quick, begging the question would be

2:04:59Jay Dyerwhat I interpret him as saying that I think is begging the question is when I ask for the principle by which he knows

2:05:07Jay Dyerwhat is correct in terms of God's will or the canon, it was appeals to the thing that's in question, right, that he has the right canon and he has

2:05:16Jay Dyerthe interpretation correctly of those texts, and I'm asking for the epistemic principle that tells him which book is correct and which list is correct, and he just went to the text as if that tells him which book or list is correct. So that for me is begging the question. Non sequitur is

2:05:33Jay Dyerwhen it doesn't follow, right? So the premises or the propositions

2:05:37Jay Dyerthat are stated,

2:05:38Jay Dyerthey don't, the conclusion

2:05:40Jay Dyerdoesn't follow from those premises.

2:05:43Jay DyerEquivocation

2:05:44Jay Dyeris the idea that the word or

2:05:47Jay Dyera phrase

2:05:48Jay Dyerhas the same meaning in every context or setting like the word concept fallacy.

2:05:53Jay DyerSo for example, he was equivocating on tradition. So he was saying that something like, you know, the the pope comes from a false tradition, and so tradition is a problem, and therefore No. No. No.

2:06:08PedroI I I'm saying,

2:06:10Pedrotradition is not infallible as compared to theopneustas,

2:06:14PedroGod breed, revelation, the word of God.

2:06:17PedroThere are traditions that are good. Like, for example, here's a here's a good example. It is not a bad tradition

2:06:24Pedrofor,

2:06:25Pedroif you were to tell your people, hey. In giving the blessing for who will take your daughter as their bride,

2:06:32Pedroyou need to sit this man down and actually see if he's knowledgeable in the word of God. How would that be a bad tradition? You

2:06:39Jay Dyeradmitted that sola scriptura

2:06:41Jay Dyeris a tradition.

2:06:43PedroRight. Is it it's and

2:06:46Jay Dyeryou admitted that the

2:06:48Jay Dyercontents of sola scriptura could be wrong? Well,

2:06:53Pedrothe basis upon which it's standing is not wrong, which is scripture. So I I would say this. I think you're saying that

2:06:59Jay DyerThat is saying the do you understand this?

2:07:02Jay DyerYeah. It's a circle.

2:07:02PedroRemember my pre

2:07:04Pedroso remember my pre

2:07:05Jay DyerIt's a fallacy. I'm just gonna you that's a fallacy.

2:07:07PedroBut but think but well, let let's think about it this way, sir. What if it could be standing in your mind where it's saying, like I had on the slide in the beginning of my opening statement,

2:07:16Pedroscripture,

2:07:18Pedroor sola scriptura is the sole infallible rule of faith. What might be standing in your mind is,

2:07:24Pedrosola scriptura is the sole rule of faith. Could that possibly be happening at all?

2:07:30Jay DyerCould what be happening?

2:07:32PedroYou say we don't, value any any any tradition. Right? I'm saying that we we just examine our tradition.

2:07:39Jay DyerThat's not true. It's a specific question about how you know the contents of scripture

2:07:45Jay Dyerand you just keep equipping it.

2:07:46PedroThe sovereignty of God.

2:07:48Jay DyerI ask you how you know about that, where you get that knowledge and you said general revelation and then you said special revelation.

2:07:54PedroA god exists. Right?

2:07:56PedroDo you know

2:07:57Jay Dyerthat that begging the question, how do you know that that god is the Christian god?

2:08:02PedroDo you know that god is the how do you know that god is the Christian god?

2:08:08PedroGive me a minute.

2:08:11Jay DyerI mean, you have to go to scripture.

2:08:14PedroExactly.

2:08:15PedroYou have to go to scripture.

2:08:16Jay DyerSo that's begging the question. Question about

2:08:19Jay Dyerthe contents of scripture.

2:08:20PedroWhere does scripture come from?

2:08:22Jay DyerAlright, we're gonna move on.

2:08:24PedroGod.

2:08:24Jay DyerRole state, that's not answering the question, nobody disagrees

2:08:29Jay Dyerthat God is the ultimate source of tradition, the question is about how

2:08:34Jay Dyerdo we determine the canon of scripture? You can't just say, because God, bro.

2:08:40Jay DyerWell, I'm not

2:08:41Pedrosaying

2:08:42Pedrobecause God, bro, I'm saying God,

2:08:44Pedrolike we agreed upon, is a personable God. A personal one. Right? He interacts in his creation,

2:08:51Pedroand he wants his creation to know him. Right?

2:08:54Jay DyerYep. I asked you how you know that, and that he's personal. I said, is there any I said, is there is any

2:09:00Jay DyerGod personal apart from father, son, and spirit? And you said, no. And father, son, and spirit is a doctrine of scripture in Revelation.

2:09:06PedroRight. Right. And think about it this way.

2:09:08Jay DyerThat is a circle. That's a circle.

2:09:10PedroRight. Oh, okay. So think about it this way.

2:09:13PedroThe trinity, god, father,

2:09:15Pedroson,

2:09:17Pedroholy spirit,

2:09:19Pedroand God and and and the father. I'm getting mixed up. Sorry.

2:09:22PedroThey're they're in a personal relationship.

2:09:25PedroWe're made in their image. Right?

2:09:27PedroJust like them, we are personal. We are we we we we commune with one another.

2:09:32Jay DyerI'm asking you what you believe or what the Trinity doctrine is. I'm asking you the epistemic principle by which you know those things.

2:09:40PedroI

2:09:41PedroI I would say epistemic

2:09:43Pedrois referring to the objective. Correct?

2:09:46Jay DyerIt just

2:09:46PedroLike, it exists outside of our mind.

2:09:48Jay DyerIt just means knowledge.

2:09:50PedroWhat is the But but epistemic means it exists outside of our mind. Without us here, two plus two still equals four. Correct?

2:09:56Jay DyerWhat the word means. No. It's not it's not a So alright.

2:09:59PedroWhat's epistemic mean?

2:10:00Jay DyerIt just has to do with with knowledge. Our our doctrine of knowledge, how we know what we know, what do we know, can we justify our beliefs? It's a domain of philosophy, epistemology.

2:10:09PedroI'm not asking interested in the objective. I'm saying it rests for the principle.

2:10:13Jay DyerSo when you make these statements,

2:10:15Jay Dyerthey're based on a source, what is the source for these beliefs that you have when you say things like, God is personal,

2:10:23Jay DyerGod wants, you know, is sovereign, he's provident, he wants this for my life, he wants me to know this, he has this meaning for me, this purpose for me. I'm just asking you how you know what that stuff is, what's the source of the content of those problems?

2:10:35PedroYeah, let's try

2:10:36Pedroand construct it with some premises. Premise one, right?

2:10:40PedroThey're they're I'm

2:10:41Jay Dyernot trying be mean, you're not no. I'm not getting it.

2:10:44PedroI think we're running past each other because you keep saying,

2:10:48Pedroyou know, begging

2:10:49Jay Dyerthe question basic philosophical questions. I'm not trying to be rude, I'm not trying be a dick. I'm just asking about

2:10:55Jay Dyerhow you, what's the source for those beliefs?

2:10:58Jay DyerAnd you said general revelation.

2:11:00Jay DyerYes. But then when I ask you

2:11:02PedroThere is a God.

2:11:05Jay DyerYou're not getting it dude, when I ask you the questions of what that means,

2:11:09Jay Dyerit falls back on things that are not general revelation, that are scripture. So it's begging the question,

2:11:14Jay Dyerhow many times do I have to state that for you? Do you understand?

2:11:19PedroOkay.

2:11:20PedroI I think I would have to just review the tape and and write it down and try and come up with an answer for you. Yeah.

2:11:26Jay DyerIt's it's We'll move on. We'll we'll we'll cover it in the future. Roll steaks, $5. Can you recommend Pedro some chalk.com products so that he might partake in the beast energy?

2:11:36Jay Dyer500 streams in one day for talking for fifteen hours straight nonstop, that's exactly right, five hundred hours. And yes, we have a show sponsor which is chalk.com,

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2:11:57Jay Dyersponsor, and we love those guys, and yes, I am presently powered by chalk energy beast energy. Braden Rice $1.

2:12:06Jay DyerUnitarians use sola scriptura arguments

2:12:09Jay Dyerfrom the canon of scripture that

2:12:12Jay Dyeryou have,

2:12:13Jay DyerPedro, that also

2:12:15Jay Dyerthey think denies Christ's divinity. How could you argue against the interpretation of scripture

2:12:21Jay Dyerwithout appealing to a tradition such as the Nicene Creed?

2:12:24PedroGotcha. So just sticking the

2:12:27Pedrothe bible itself, I would go to Psalms one zero two where it describes, you know, God being unchanging

2:12:33Pedroand

2:12:34Pedrothink things of the things of this nature. It gives a,

2:12:38Pedroverbatim,

2:12:38Pedroyou know, text.

2:12:40PedroAnd then I would kind of try and make the Unitarian close the back door

2:12:45Pedroon saying,

2:12:46Pedrois this true? Like, I would say Jehovah's Witnesses.

2:12:49PedroIs it can this, be true of anybody but Jehovah God?

2:12:53PedroIf they close that door and say, yes. That is Jehovah God, I would then, go into

2:13:00PedroI

2:13:01Pedrothink it's John

2:13:05Pedrois it John? No. It's not John three sixteen. It's somewhere in John where it gives an exact,

2:13:12Pedroreference to the son.

2:13:14PedroRight? Using the

2:13:15Pedroit's actually quoting from Psalms one zero two who the son is.

2:13:20PedroRight?

2:13:21PedroSo from there, I would then ask him, okay. You just said before that this can be true of anyone but Jehovah God, and this is Jesus

2:13:28Pedrobeing identified

2:13:30Pedroright here verbatim

2:13:31Pedroas Jehovah God.

2:13:34PedroIs Jesus God? That's how I would do it like that.

2:13:38Jay DyerNicodemos three thirty three. Pedro, Jay is asking you how you know that sola scriptura is true, and you're saying that sola scriptura is true because sola scriptura says it is the k that is so.

2:13:49Jay DyerThis is like saying my diary is infallible because my diary says my diary is infallible.

2:13:54PedroWell, I I I would say I would say this. I'm saying that sola scriptura

2:13:59Pedrois true because it's stating that

2:14:02Pedroby the divine

2:14:03Pedrosovereign decree of God, he would from eternity past, he decree he sovereignly decreed this that he would give a revealed will to his people. And nothing, no organization on man could ever have stopped that from happening.

2:14:19Jay DyerBut again, that's known from scripture.

2:14:23PedroI I don't wanna run-in a circle again. I would just say next question.

2:14:26Jay DyerRight. And yeah.

2:14:29Jay DyerThat's the last of the super chats, so thank you Pedro. It was a nice debate, and we can, you know, set up some good topics

2:14:37Jay Dyerand debates in the future if you want to.

2:14:40PedroFor for sure. Yeah. I was actually interested on the, trinity. So do you and this is just a passing question. You don't have to answer it in full now. We can argue it later. Do you think don't believe exactly what the orthodox believe about the trinity?

2:14:55Jay DyerNo. Of course not.

2:14:56PedroOh, perfect. Cool.

2:14:57Jay DyerNo. No. We do

2:14:58Pedrodo agree on the trinity. Okay.

2:14:59Jay DyerNo. No. No. No. No. You misunderstand me. I'm saying you, of course, do not accept what we believe.

2:15:05Jay DyerWe are totally at odds.

2:15:07PedroOkay.

2:15:10PedroOne being of God,

2:15:12Pedrothree distinct persons,

2:15:15Pedroall fully partaking in that being of God. Right?

2:15:19PedroIs that is there any error in that statement?

2:15:23Jay DyerNo. But, I mean, that's not really I mean, that's like a good starting point you could say. But the for example, I mean, every reformation church that I've ever heard of or know about believes in the filioque, and that's a fundamental thing that the Orthodox Church rejects.

2:15:37PedroI'm gonna be honest. I've never heard of the filioque,

2:15:40Pedrobut if we believe

2:15:42Pedrothat there is one eternal being of God,

2:15:46Pedrothree distinct persons

2:15:47Pedroall equally and fully

2:15:50Pedroparticipating

2:15:51Pedroin in communion with that being,

2:15:55PedroI think we're solid. So I I I think we're just be mincing words after that.

2:16:00Jay DyerSo that's

2:16:01Jay Dyerright. Like,

2:16:03Jay Dyerthat's like saying

2:16:05Jay Dyerme and a Mormon believe in

2:16:08Jay Dyerthe phrase Jesus is God, so we're straight, we're all good. Well, when the Mormon

2:16:13PedroWell that's No hold I mean, we were very specific in being

2:16:17Pedrothree persons.

2:16:18Jay DyerWhen the Mormon explains what he means

2:16:20Jay DyerOkay. We totally disagree over the meaning of Jesus is God, right? So in the same way, even though the phrase

2:16:27Jay Dyerone essence three persons is something that we have in common,

2:16:31Jay DyerThe filioque is a fundamental

2:16:34Jay Dyerissue that all Reformation and Western churches accept that the Orthodox Church holds as fundamentally heterodox.

2:16:41Jay DyerSo no. We don't.

2:16:42PedroHow about this?

2:16:44PedroChristology, hypostatic union. Jesus is a 100% man and a 100% God.

2:16:50Jay DyerAgain, it's more than that. So you don't believe

2:16:52PedroIs he a but don't believe he

2:16:53Jay Dyera 100 believe Ephesus? You don't believe Chalcedon?

2:16:56Jay DyerYou don't believe the fifth or sixth councils? So no we

2:16:59PedroWithout don't have

2:17:00Pedrothe long words can you just explain it like to me I'm a layman?

2:17:04Jay DyerSo what we should probably do is a separate discussion for that because that would be a whole other topic, but I'd be glad to, you know you can come back and we can talk christology anytime.

2:17:13PedroPerfect. Okay. Cool. Nice.

2:17:15Jay DyerAlright. Anything you wanna leave anybody with? Of course, I've got your channel linked, the crucible, anything else you wanna leave us with?

2:17:23PedroNo. I just wanna say thank you again to Jay Dyer for having me on his channel. Obviously, I'm I'm I'm super green. I've I've never actually had, I think, a legit theological debate like this. This is my first time. So for him to be able to say,

2:17:37Pedroyes. I will let this peasant come onto my channel.

2:17:40Jay DyerDon't argue like that, I

2:17:41Pedromean

2:17:43PedroI'm kidding,

2:17:43Jay DyerI'm kidding. I'm glad you're here and it was a good discussion and we often, I mean it was civil, it was heated, it was good, it was perfect,

2:17:50Jay Dyerand no I don't look down on you or anything like that, I mean our goal,

2:17:55Jay Dyerwe're very open about it, we want people to be orthodox, because we think it's true. So that's our goal here,

2:18:00Jay Dyerand you're welcome anytime, and thank you for having me on the crucible, and everybody have a good night. Perfect. Alright, later dude.