DEBATE: Jay Dyer Vs Pastor Jonathan Shelley | Tradition Vs Sola Scriptura

1:26Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)Hey, everybody. Tonight, we're debating tradition versus sola scriptura, and we are starting right now with Jay's opening statement. Thanks for being with us. Jay, the floor is all yours.

1:36Jay DyerYeah. Just one second. I have one thing I'm pulling up here from something

1:42Jay DyerI wrote for

1:43Jay Dyeropening statement here.

1:46Jay DyerCan you give me just one second before we start? I just this... I just needed this one piece of data here for the opening statement. It's

1:54Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)You got it?

1:55Jay DyerNo problem. This is hard to find here.

1:57Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)This is a great opportunity for me. I can fill that time easily. Folks, first, if it's your first time here at Modern Day Debate, I'm your host, doctor James Coons. We're a fully neutral platform hosting debates on science, religion, and politics. Hit that subscribe button as we have many more debates coming up,

2:11Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)including at the bottom right of your screen, debate con eight this summer in Dallas, Texas.

2:16Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)We are expecting it to for sure sell out. Check out the tickets link in the description box. It will include debates such as Dinesh D'Souza versus Andrew Wilson, as well as Godalogic apologetics

2:27Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)versus Muslim Daniel Haakikachu,

2:30Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)and many other debates. Rachel Wilson will be taking on Not So Weirdite on the effects of feminism,

2:35Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)as well as

2:38Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)Andrew Wilson taking on Loner Box on whether or not Trump is a fascist. You don't wanna miss it. Click on that link right now. Check out the full debate card and book your travel early.

2:47Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)Keep in mind, look at your calendar because before you plan your schedule,

2:51Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)you want to go to this conference.

2:54Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)Ready for you, Jay, if you are.

2:56Jay DyerYou said we're doing ten minutes opening?

2:58Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)Yep. Okay.

3:00Jay DyerAlright. So when we come to the question of sola scriptura versus the question of tradition, the first argument I'm gonna make is that the Bible itself,

3:09Jay Dyerthe accepted text that between Orthodox

3:12Jay Dyerand

3:13Jay Dyermost Protestants we agree on, those texts themselves

3:17Jay Dyeractually point outside of the text when it comes to the notion of sacred tradition also being the word of God.

3:25Jay DyerAll Protestant arguments generally rest on the assumption that it's only the written texts that are the word, and that it's not the word himself that is a divine person

3:34Jay Dyerthat thus makes himself known through the medium of written text. And so if this argument fails, then the entire notion that we only listen to the written text is refuted then by the written text themselves.

3:47Jay DyerMy goal is to then open the minds of everybody here to this foundational

3:51Jay DyerProtestant presupposition.

3:53Jay DyerThere is overwhelming evidence that, for example, from Genesis one up until the time of Moses, the tradition was passed on orally. So there's nothing inherently

4:03Jay Dyerflawed or bad necessarily

4:05Jay Dyerabout oral teaching because God was able to preserve the oral teaching from the time of Adam

4:11Jay Dyerup to Abraham and up to Moses.

4:13Jay DyerAnd that counts as several hundreds of years, and so God's providence is not in any way impugned by the fact that it's oral versus something being written.

4:22Jay DyerAs we move on, when we look at specific examples in the Old Testament, we notice that the patriarchs,

4:29Jay Dyerall through Genesis,

4:30Jay Dyerkept this oral tradition and then passed it down.

4:33Jay DyerAnd then eventually, for example, the time of David,

4:36Jay Dyerwe read in second Chronicles 29

4:39Jay Dyerthat

4:40Jay Dyerhe stationed the Levites in the house of the Lord with cymbals, stringed instruments, and harps

4:46Jay Dyeraccording to the commandment of David,

4:48Jay Dyerof Gad, the king's seer, and of Nathan.

4:52Jay DyerFor thus was the commandment of the Lord by his prophets, the Levites with instruments of David, and the priests with their trumpets. We do not have any written record of what David commanded concerning these things. Furthermore, it is clear that David flourished some some two hundred fifty years before the time of king Hezekiah.

5:08Jay DyerIt must be argued then that this was David's opinion if you're a Protestant because we don't know that this was involved in any written description as far as we can tell because these books have actually been lost.

5:19Jay DyerBut we know that in the book of Leviticus, if you read Leviticus ten and eleven,

5:25Jay Dyeryou'll note that Nadab and Abihu are actually killed for making up how we would worship God. So God doesn't tolerate the idea of DIY

5:34Jay Dyermaking it up worship.

5:35Jay DyerThus,

5:36Jay Dyerthere had to have been an oral tradition

5:39Jay Dyerthat David knew or passed down

5:42Jay Dyerthat was the basis for the organizing of this liturgical worship.

5:47Jay DyerAlso note that for

5:51Jay Dyermost reformed people or protestants in general, many of them will actually make a very similar argument

5:57Jay Dyerabout how we worship God in the New Testament. For example, the reformed, and I don't know if this person is a Calvinist or reformed or not, but many reformed Baptists or Calvinists have what they believe as as a regulative principle of worship. I'm just using this as an example. Maybe he doesn't believe in this. But the regulative principle for many Protestants states that you can only do in worship what God specifically commands and lays down. However, in the New Testament documents,

6:20Jay Dyerwe do not have any specific pattern of how an entire worship service is to be conducted.

6:26Jay DyerThus, when we read the apostolic fathers, for example, we notice that they do mention the pattern of worship.

6:34Jay DyerThey speak of the Eucharist. They speak of episcopacy.

6:36Jay DyerThey speak of deacons. They speak of an altar.

6:39Jay DyerAll things missing

6:41Jay Dyerin Protestant churches for the most part.

6:44Jay DyerDo we seriously believe that when the New Testament

6:49Jay Dyerteachers and apostles

6:50Jay Dyerpreached

6:51Jay Dyerthat their preaching wasn't the word of God? Peter himself

6:55Jay Dyersays the word of God which was preached to you, showing us that it is not restricted only to the written text.

7:03Jay DyerProtestants, for example, will cite Isaiah eight and say to the law and to the testimony.

7:08Jay DyerBut many commentators, including Protestants, will note that this testimony

7:12Jay Dyeris also including the oral tradition.

7:16Jay DyerWe read in the Old Testament about the book of the wars of the lord, the book of the just. We read about the book of Nathan the prophet. We read about all kinds of books and proverbs and things that were written down, which were not,

7:27Jay Dyerultimately included in the canonical text.

7:33Jay DyerFor example, if we look at the case of the visions of Adol the prophet against Jeroboam,

7:38Jay Dyerwe have a true prophet prophesying against the evil king Jeroboam.

7:42Jay DyerThis is obviously from the lord.

7:45Jay DyerBut where is the written law about this prophetic incident?

7:49Jay DyerNote also that the undisputed Old Testament text itself is directing us to these books as references.

7:55Jay DyerOn the Protestant model, we would have the infallible referencing something fallible because most of them will say if they admit that the oral teaching is the word of God, it was somehow fallible.

8:05Jay DyerBut now we have the infallible written referencing

8:07Jay Dyerthe fallible.

8:09Jay DyerThis is absurd.

8:10Jay DyerAgain, we see that they did not have sola scriptura in the Old Testament

8:14Jay Dyersince,

8:16Jay DyerIsaiah

8:17Jay Dyereight twenty to 21 mandates also going to the testimony.

8:21Jay DyerBut all of these prophecies, for example, Obadiah or others,

8:25Jay Dyerare called the word of the Lord.

8:27Jay DyerRather, the written law and the oral testimony of the prophets was considered

8:32Jay Dyerthe word of the Lord. And thus, it is because the word is a person, as Jesus says to the pharisees, you search the scriptures because you think that it is in them that you have eternal life. When is they that bear witness of me? Protestants are actually Judaized heretics who rely on a Judaic interpretation

8:47Jay Dyerand understanding of texts

8:49Jay Dyeras if they are themselves

8:51Jay Dyerdivine or god. And I'm not saying they're not inspired because I do believe in inspiration. But the Orthodox Church does not believe that the texts themselves are God.

8:59Jay DyerThey are... The Bible is a created

9:03Jay Dyermedium of

9:04Jay Dyertransmitting the knowledge of God. It itself is not divine.

9:09Jay DyerIn the New Testament, we have many examples as well of this same principle.

9:14Jay DyerFor example, we are told that

9:16Jay DyerJohn says that if it were to be collected into one book, you could never collect everything that Jesus did or said into a book because it would take all the books in the world. And this is John 20 verse 30.

9:32Jay DyerExcuse me, that's John 20 verse 30 says that there are many other things that he didn't said, and then 21 verse 25 says that all the books in the world couldn't contain all of this.

9:42Jay DyerAnd then we have, for example,

9:45Jay Dyerstatements that Paul says very clearly to the Thessalonians in second Thessalonians to keep the oral traditions as a standing command, whether I delivered what I delivered to you, whether oral or written. So we have a standing command according to Saint Paul.

9:57Jay DyerIn first Thessalonians two, Paul says, for this reason, we thank God without ceasing because you received the word of God which you heard from us. So the oral teaching of the apostles is the word of God as well. This alone really undoes

10:12Jay Dyerthe majority of the out of context and low tier

10:16Jay Dyerquote mining that most sola scriptura proponents do. That's why Paul also says

10:21Jay Dyerto keep the oral traditions.

10:23Jay DyerAnd to Timothy, he says in second Timothy one thirteen, hold fast the pattern of the sound words you heard from me.

10:30Jay DyerThat is not against the scriptures.

10:32Jay DyerAnd certainly, when Jesus says in Matthew 23 that the scribes and pharisees,

10:36Jay Dyercreate

10:37Jay Dyertraditions

10:38Jay Dyerof men that supplant the scriptures,

10:41Jay DyerIn that same chapter, he also talks about the scribes and pharisees sitting in the seat of Moses, and thus they have the authority of Moses. There's nothing in the Old Testament about mosestolic succession or a seat of Moses. Jesus is referring to a valid

10:54Jay DyerOld Testament tradition,

10:56Jay Dyerand he's rejecting the scribes and pharisees' invalid

10:59Jay Dyertradition.

11:00Jay DyerAs we move into the early church, for example, we learn that

11:04Jay Dyerthe early church did not have for many centuries a written New Testament text. I have with me here, and I can just pull it up if we need to, multiple

11:13Jay Dyercanons

11:15Jay Dyerof scripture amongst the church fathers for centuries.

11:18Jay DyerAnd by the fourth century,

11:20Jay Dyerthe entire church East and West, west being represented by the council of Rome under pope Demesus, including the deuterocanonical texts as part of the normative official canon of that time under the Latin patriarchate.

11:33Jay DyerAnd in the and in the East, under the apostolic canons, the very last few canons cover the canon of scripture according to the entire eastern church normative for the East in canon law by the fourth century, guess what? They include the deuterocanonical texts. Now we don't think that it was even solidified at that point, and many Protestants, including James White, in his recent debate with Tran Horne, were forced to admit that the canon of the early church was.

11:57Jay DyerIt was unformed,

11:59Jay Dyerand the early church for many centuries was not operating on the principle of sola scriptura.

12:04Jay DyerWell, if that's the case, then sola scriptura was not true in those centuries. And if it wasn't true in those centuries, it's actually the Protestants that are adding faking gay new doctrines

12:14Jay Dyerand teachings of men because the church didn't have sola scriptura as its operating principle.

12:21Jay DyerBeyond that, also, I would add that when you get into the history of the foundation of the formation of the canon,

12:28Jay Dyeryou'll note that many Protestant scholars... And I... When I was Protestant, I read all these texts. For example,

12:35Jay DyerLee McDonald, who lists all the different canons of scripture according to the varying varying church fathers or f f Bruce, they all recognized

12:41Jay Dyerthe role that liturgy and tradition played in the formation of the canon. And so I will end it with saying that according to this person that is... That I'm debating with, he has no argument for why we ought to accept as normative

12:54Jay Dyerthe Protestant canon.

12:59Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)Thank you very much for that opening, and we're gonna kick it over kick it over to pastor Jonathan. But first, as you can see at the bottom right of your screen, modern day debate has launched on TikTok. If you hang out on TikTok, check out our link pinned at the top of the chat and in the description box where you can find clips from juicy debates. With that, we're gonna kick it over to pastor Jonathan for his opening as well. The floor is all yours.

13:20Jonathan ShelleyThank you so much, James, for allowing me to be on the show and to represent

13:25Jonathan Shelleythe Bible, the word of God. And I wanna start with a verse in Colossians chapter one, verse number 18.

13:32Jonathan ShelleyThe Bible says about Christ that he is the head of the body, the church,

13:36Jonathan Shelleywho is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things he might have the preeminence.

13:43Jonathan ShelleyReally, this debate is around authority and understanding that Christ is the final authority.

13:49Jonathan ShelleyIf Christ is the head of the church, then we ought to obey Christ and appeal to Christ. Since Christ is not physically with us on earth,

13:57Jonathan Shelleyhe has left us obviously his word, and we can reference his word. If Christ is infallible,

14:02Jonathan Shelleythen his word is infallible.

14:04Jonathan ShelleyTherefore, we appeal to scripture as being infallible.

14:08Jonathan ShelleyAnd so if you elevate tradition,

14:11Jonathan Shelleyif you elevate church authority to be on par with or usurp the authority of Christ, well, now we no longer have the correct body. The correct body is Christ as

14:21Speaker 3the head, meaning that we have

14:22Jonathan Shelleyto have scripture as our final authority.

14:25Jonathan ShelleyThe question is, what is scripture? Of course, the Bible teaches that God's word is forever, O Lord. Thy word is settled in heaven. The Bible teaches that there's no such thing as a time when the word came into existence. The word has always existed. In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God. There's never been a time when which the word did not exist.

14:45Jonathan ShelleyThe word of God is eternal.

14:47Jonathan ShelleyAnd so therefore,

14:48Jonathan Shelleyjust like God is eternal,

14:50Jonathan Shelleywe only appeal to that which is divine, to that which is eternal, to that which is unchanging.

14:57Jonathan ShelleyWe look at church tradition. We look at whether it's Catholic or Orthodox.

15:01Jonathan ShelleyThese are constantly changing.

15:03Jonathan ShelleyAnd really, if we really think about this argument, we both agree that the 66 books that I hold in my King James Bible are the word of God. Really, I just disagree with him and think that the apocrypha is the word of God. I deny that it is on par with scripture. It could be used for historical understanding, but it's not the word of God. I disagree that his church is

15:23Jonathan Shelleyinfallible

15:24Jonathan Shelleyas we see many churches in the New Testament having serious error, not just a little bit of error,

15:31Jonathan Shelleyerror. At no point do we see any church being infallible.

15:35Jonathan ShelleyThere's no verse teaching of this infallible church. There's no teaching about his specific Orthodox church. There's no table of contents to tell us which church to pick out of the Orthodox, Coptic, Russian, Greek, Roman Catholic.

15:50Jonathan ShelleySo we basically just have to trust them. But at the end of the day, the churches are not the one that has the authority. It's the scripture that has the authority. Scripture gives authority to the church. It's the church's responsibility

16:02Jonathan Shelleyto simply receive and recognize

16:04Jonathan ShelleyGod's word.

16:06Jonathan ShelleyOne of the tests that the Bible gives us about knowing what God's word is is that the the scripture teaches that we will hear the voice of the shepherd.

16:13Jonathan ShelleyJesus Christ said, my sheep hear my voice. He says that we're not gonna follow a stranger. Another test the Bible gives us in the book of Deuteronomy is that when someone presumes to speak a word in the name of the Lord and it comes not to pass,

16:26Jonathan Shelleyto disregard that particular word. So we understand that the word of God is gonna match reality.

16:31Jonathan ShelleyIt's gonna match what

16:33Jonathan Shelleydivine voice that we hear in the scripture. It's gonna have internal consistency. The Bible teaches the scripture cannot be broken. The Bible tells us we're supposed to compare spiritual with spiritual.

16:43Jonathan ShelleySo, you know, there's several different tests that we could employ to understand what truly is the word of God.

16:49Jonathan ShelleyAt the end of the day, you know, people will scoff at the idea that the scripture has this divine voice. But we can tell the difference between

16:57Jonathan ShelleyDoctor. Seuss and Shakespeare.

16:59Jonathan ShelleyThere's a gigantic difference between these two texts. And if God were to write a book or to speak, there would be a gigantic difference between God's word and man's word.

17:11Jonathan ShelleyTherefore, it is evident

17:13Jonathan Shelleywhen God speaks as opposed to when man speaks.

17:16Jonathan ShelleyThe 66 books of the Bible that we have has the divine voice. It's recognized

17:22Jonathan Shelleythrough God's people through the Holy Ghost. My sheep hear my voice. And, really, when we talk about Protestant

17:29Jonathan Shelleyor Orthodox or Catholic, we all agree on the 66 books being scripture.

17:34Jonathan ShelleyWhere we disagree

17:35Jonathan Shelleyis that Jay believes that the apocrypha is scripture. I don't believe that. He believes that his church is infallible. I don't believe that. And I believe he has no verses to point to that. Why would I disagree with their

17:49Jonathan Shelleyapocrypha?

17:50Jonathan ShelleyWell, it has not been received by all Christians historically.

17:54Jonathan ShelleyIt does not have the divine voice. It was not preserved in the Hebrew. It's not internally consistent.

18:00Jonathan ShelleyIt has many different historical and factual errors in the Apocrypha specifically.

18:06Jonathan ShelleyAdditionally, it teaches,

18:08Jonathan Shelleya weird salvation. It teaches that almsgiving

18:11Jonathan Shelleypurges away from every sin.

18:13Jonathan ShelleyThis doesn't match reality,

18:15Jonathan Shelleyand it doesn't produce the type of fruit that the King James Bible has produced. The Bible says by their fruit, you shall know them. The Bible teaches that wisdom is justified of her children. We can see the evident fruit of the King James Bible

18:27Jonathan Shelleyof, you know, those who have adhered to scripture alone and put that at the top of their church. What's interesting is the Protestant Reformation

18:34Jonathan Shelleyis not defined by one singular individual,

18:38Jonathan Shelleyand we don't appeal to one particular individual. We don't have a cult leader like Joseph Smith or

18:43Jonathan Shelleyperhaps Muhammad or other false religions.

18:46Jonathan ShelleyWe simply all read the scripture and come to the same conclusions.

18:51Jonathan ShelleyAnd what is that conclusion? That Christ is the head of the church. Of course, why did the Protestant Reformation even happen? The Catholic church had corrupted itself. It was teaching new doctrines. Jay will even agree with me on this. And when you looked at scripture, the plain reading was in clear contradiction to the Catholic church. So who's right? Well, Jesus Christ told us that the pharisees,

19:08Jonathan Shelleythey had elevated their tradition over the word of god, and he said, you full will reject the word of god that you may keep your own tradition.

19:15Jonathan ShelleyThat's what the Catholics have done, and that's what the orthodox have done in the same way, adding things to the text.

19:21Jonathan ShelleySo at the end of the day, we have to ask this question, who's the final authority

19:25Jonathan Shelleyminus scripture? J's would be a bunch of Orthodox bishops

19:29Jonathan Shelleyor some

19:31Jonathan Shelleycounsel or some sonat.

19:33Jonathan ShelleyAt the end of the he might try to claim that our our

19:36Jonathan Shelleybelief is circular.

19:38Jonathan ShelleyBut at the end of day, you have to appeal to something. I appeal to scripture as my final authority.

19:43Jonathan ShelleyJay appeals to his his Orthodox church.

19:47Jonathan ShelleyHow did he come to that conclusion? I have no idea because the Bible doesn't teach it whatsoever,

19:52Jonathan Shelleyand so therefore I reject it. Why do I come to the conclusion about the Bible? Well, it tells me it's the word of God. I've tested it, proved it, and it's been evident to me that it is the word of God. When I compare other texts,

20:04Jonathan Shelleythey don't pass the exact same test.

20:08Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)You got it. Thank you very much for that opening as well. Folks, if you didn't know, Modern Debate has a Discord. Join 16,000

20:15Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)active members

20:16Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)in the debate arena at the modern day debate Discord pinned at the top of the chat and in the description box right now. With that, we're gonna jump into the open dialogue. Gentlemen, I'm gonna give you guys ton of freedom.

20:26Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)If it gets to be where there's too much speaking over each other, I'm gonna jump in and maybe make it ninety second responses. But otherwise, the floor is yours.

20:36Speaker 3Sorry. Go ahead.

20:37Jay DyerYeah. It's interesting because all I heard was a a series of personal subjective appeals and fallacies and begging the question about what was in question, which is

20:47Jay Dyerin my opening statement, I said that you had no basis for any

20:52Jay Dyernormative authority to bind you or anyone else to the Protestant canon. And it's also interesting that Paul himself in first Timothy three fifteen says the church is the pillar and ground of truth, which is the very thing that you denied saying that, no. It's the written texts that are the pillar and ground of truth. Why does Paul say that it's the church?

21:13Jonathan ShelleyAm I allowed to engage with you on that?

21:16Jay DyerObviously, if I'm asking you a question. Yeah.

21:18Jonathan ShelleyI don't believe that the scripture is the pillar ground. It just is

21:22Jay Dyerthe truth.

21:23Jay DyerThe normative authority is scripture. So so what's the difference between being the pillar and ground of truth and being the truth?

21:29Jonathan ShelleyThe pillar holds up the truth,

21:31Jay Dyerand it Oh, so the church

21:32Jonathan Shelleyholds up the scriptures?

21:34Jonathan ShelleyThe... It it, of course, points to the scriptures, guards the scriptures. It's supposed to elevate the scriptures. It's supposed to magnify the scriptures.

21:40Jay DyerChurch holds up the scriptures, so the church supports the thing that you said is the ultimate truth.

21:45Jonathan ShelleyAbs... We believe... I believe that the church is a necessary function. I believe tradition

21:50Jonathan Shelleyis acceptable.

21:51Jay DyerIs it that people are in ground of They should

21:53Jonathan Shelleybe scrutinized from the top down,

21:54Jay Dyernot the bottom underneath up? Is it underneath the thing that you said was the foundation?

21:59Jonathan ShelleyIt is subject to the scripture. Yes.

22:02Jay DyerNo. No. Subject to is the opposite of being the foundation and pillar of. You don't know what that means?

22:07Jonathan ShelleyObviously, you could use these analogies in two different ways.

22:10Jay DyerNo. They're opposite. They're... You can't use hierarchy,

22:12Jonathan Shelleyand then, of course, the bible says it's about a foundation. There's no... These are two different analogies. You could use both of them.

22:17Jay DyerNo. They're not. This analogy says that the pillar and ground of truth is the church is the opposite of what you just said, and you said, well, you can say it both ways. Where does it... Why do you say that?

22:29Jonathan ShelleyObviously, the Bible teaches that Jesus Christ is the our foundation. He's the chief cornerstone.

22:34Jonathan ShelleyBut in other places, the Bible teaches that God is the king of kings and lord of lords. So as a

22:38Jay Dyertop What down does that have to do with

22:40Jonathan Shelleyproving analogies.

22:41Jay DyerWhat does that have to do with proving that the canon that you have is the accurate canon?

22:49Jonathan ShelleyThe reason why I believe the Bible is the word of God is because of

22:52Jay Dyerthe No. I

22:52Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)just wanna

22:52Jay Dyerask you. It's not wanna ask you that you have the right canon. I know you think it's the word of God. How do you know that you have the right canon when Paul says it's the church that is the pillar and ground of truth that produces the Bible and decides what goes into it?

23:04Jonathan ShelleyAgain, you're you're you're you're not listening to what I'm saying. Every single book if every single book in the Bible has a divine voice, then that is how I decide

23:12Jay Dyerwhat is my opinion. Question because You're begging

23:15Jay DyerI'm asking you how you know that the 66 books is the limit of the divine voice and not our canon.

23:21Jonathan ShelleyBecause no other book matches the divine voice. So if I hold up

23:24Jay Dyerto scrutiny a fallacy of self evidence, and it's begging the question. So because you think that the Protestant canon is the self evident manifest thing, when that's what I'm asking you, how do you know that that's the case? You said because it attests to that self evident manifest thing. That's a fallacy of self evidence.

23:39Jonathan ShelleySo wait a minute. If Christ is infallible

23:42Jonathan Shelleyand his word is infallible,

23:44Jonathan Shelleyhow could I appeal to that which is fallible

23:47Jonathan Shelleyto authenticate

23:49Jonathan Shelleysomething that's infallible? If Christ is the head, if Christ is infallible, then can't self authenticating.

23:55Jonathan ShelleyYou believe something can be self authenticating?

23:57Jay DyerThe opening statement showed you that the written texts are not the only thing called the word of God. So So you just keep begging

24:03Jonathan Shelleythe question. Made those assertions. Just prove that. You can claim

24:06Jay Dyerthat on the multiple...

24:07Jay DyerDid you not listen to the I did listen text. I said,

24:09Jonathan Shelleyyou you just You haven't decided yet. Interpreting the Bible.

24:12Jay DyerYou're just calling in a misinterpretation. Paul says, the things that you heard from me in the presence of many witnesses, pass those things on as sound doctrine. Peter says, the word of God preached

24:21Jonathan ShelleySo could you. So could so the oral tell them something that oral? Matches doctrine, but not Are

24:28Jonathan ShelleyYeah. Paul could say, hey. Here's how you should operate. Doesn't

24:31Speaker 3mean it's scripture.

24:32Jay DyerSo I'm not asking is it scripture. I'm asking you, is there oral word of God?

24:36Jonathan ShelleyThe word of God can be spoken out loud, obviously.

24:39Jay DyerDoes that mean teaching

24:40Jay Dyeroral that's not just written text?

24:43Jonathan ShelleyThere's

24:44Jonathan Shelleyteaching, and then there's a scripture. If I quote scripture, I'm quoting the word of God. Does Paul call...

24:49Jay DyerWhy are you dissimulating? Why does Paul and Peter call their oral teaching the word of God?

24:53Jonathan ShelleyThey don't. There's no verse that

24:55Jay Dyersays Peter says the word of God

24:57Jonathan Shelleyis preaching the Bible.

24:59Jonathan ShelleyI get it and I quote a verse or or preach what a Bible says, that doesn't make my words the word

25:04Speaker 3of God.

25:05Jay DyerThe book of Acts, Paul says he taught for three years day and night, and he tells Timothy in the letter to pass on all the things that you heard from me in the presence of many witnesses. So you just refuted yourself.

25:17Jonathan ShelleyOkay.

25:18Jonathan ShelleyHe's teaching the scripture.

25:20Jonathan ShelleyHe he didn't say that. He didn't say five years. Opinion.

25:23Jay DyerThat's word of God. He just recited verses.

25:25Jonathan ShelleyOkay. How about first Corinthians chapter seven and possible differentiate

25:28Jay Dyerthe word of God in his own opinion? Subject.

25:31Jay DyerDid he just cite verses for three years straight?

25:34Jonathan ShelleyObviously, he reasoned out of the scriptures.

25:37Jay DyerOh, okay. So there's also oral teaching that's the word of God. Thank you. As Peter says, the word preached to you. How do you... What do you do it in my mouth?

25:44Jonathan ShelleyI never said I never said that. He reasoned

25:47Jay Dyerout the just teaching scriptures.

25:49Jay DyerScriptures. They're interpreting the scripture. That's the point. If Paul is teaching for their

25:53Jonathan Shelleyinterpretation is not the scripture.

25:56Jay DyerIt's the oral teaching that's the word of God as well. That's the point of what these

26:00Jonathan Shelleyverses says the word of God is also oral teaching.

26:03Jay DyerI'm showing you in these passages. You haven't shown a single passage, can word see you in of God, the the gospel preached to you. First Peter one twenty three and twenty four. Okay. Let's go there. Paul... I just quoted it. Well, you don't have to go there. I just quoted it for you.

26:19Jay DyerPaul says, therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions that you were taught, whether by

26:24Jay Dyerword or our written epistles. Second Thessalonians 15.

26:28Jonathan ShelleyLet's ask this question. How do you know that your church

26:31Jay DyerNo. Why you doing it quoque? Why are doing it too quoque when I'm asking you,

26:35Jay Dyeris there oral teaching that's the word of God or not?

26:38Jonathan ShelleyThere's no example of that in scripture.

26:39Jay DyerI just gave you three. Do you want more?

26:42Jonathan ShelleyOkay. So first Peter chapter one verse 25, but the word of the Lord endureth forever. That's the scripture.

26:48Jonathan ShelleyAnd this is the word which by the gospels preached unto you. He's saying he's preaching the scripture.

26:53Speaker 3He's preaching the word of God.

26:54Jay DyerSo he's just citing the text. Are you amongst you?

26:57Jonathan ShelleyBecause it's that the word the Lord endures forever,

27:00Jay Dyerand you claim that the Bible is a created nation.

27:02Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)Alright. I gotta jump. Alright. One sec. I'm just gotta... We have to go into ninety minute or ninety second responses.

27:07Jay DyerYeah. Let's do that because this is too stupid.

27:10Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)Okay. We'll give you... Pastor Jonathan, if you wanna finish that thought, I've got the timer set for you for ninety seconds.

27:15Jonathan ShelleyFirst Peter chapter one verse 25, but the word of the Lord endureth forever. That debunks Jay's point that he earlier stated, the word of God was created. It's always existed.

27:23Jonathan ShelleyAnd he says, this is the word. What what word? The word of the Lord. Whatever was already preached that endured forever. You can't say that Peter's words endured forever or that Peter existed before this. He's talking about the scripture,

27:37Jonathan Shelleywhich by the gospel is preached unto you. This in no way teaches that whenever Peter or Paul get up and explain what the Bible means, or they give the sense of the reading that that is scripture, then there would be no differentiation. How could you even differentiate between oral and the scripture if they're all just quote scripture, if they're all the word of God? How do you know what's the word of God at that point? And if it is the word of God, why don't we have it written down? Why don't we have it for us? Because Jesus Christ said, man doth not live by bread alone, but by every word of God. If it's truly the word of God, then why don't we have it?

28:08Jay DyerAre you a fundamentally stupid person? Are you not listening to what I'm telling you? I didn't say that the word of God is only a creature. I said that the written texts are created, and that's why Jesus says,

28:20Jay Dyerthis... You search the scriptures because you think that it is in them that you have eternal life when it is they that testify to me. The word of God is a person. He's the second person of the Trinity. I said that the written texts,

28:32Jay Dyerwhich are sometimes called word of God, are a manifestation and revelation of the word of God. They are created.

28:38Jay DyerThe Bible is a creature. It's a created thing. It's not eternal.

28:42Jay DyerSo I don't know if you're a Muslim.

28:43Jonathan ShelleySay that it's eternal.

28:44Jay DyerWhat the verse means written.

28:45Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)Shut up.

28:46Jay DyerI'm not finished. I just I'm not finished.

28:48Jay DyerFurthermore,

28:50Jay Dyeryou keep equivocating because you think that every time it says word of God, it's only written, and I'm showing you that there's two mediums of word of God. One that is oral when the apostles preach, which they identify as the word of God, and another which is the written, which is also the, what they are interpreting.

29:09Jay DyerSo when Paul teaches for three years day and night in Ephesus,

29:12Jay Dyeryou admitted he's interpreting it. That is identified

29:16Jay Dyeras a tradition and the word that Timothy must pass on, and you keep deflecting away from that.

29:23Jonathan ShelleyI haven't deflected away. Again, you make a distinction the the scriptures don't make between Christ and the word of God.

29:28Speaker 3I gave you Jesus Christ. Jesus says that he starts

29:31Jonathan Shelleywith a name written

29:32Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)the word. I I

29:35Jay Dyerdo wanna just

29:35Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)jump in is

29:37Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)in terms of... Jay, if you hand it over to him with a question,

29:42Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)then I gotta give him a full chance to respond.

29:45Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)Go ahead.

29:45Jay DyerYou search...

29:47Jay DyerAm I asking the question now?

29:49Jay DyerGo for it. You search the scriptures because you think that it is in them that you have eternal life when it is they that bear witness of me. Thus, there is obviously a distinction between the written texts

30:00Jay Dyerand the eternal word of God who is the second person of the Trinity. The second person of the Trinity is not a book.

30:06Jay DyerIt's not a text.

30:08Jay DyerIt's a person, and they are obviously distinct from that passage.

30:12Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)Ninety seconds for Jonathan. And, Jonathan, just to let you know, if you if you yield it over your ninety seconds fine.

30:18Jay DyerNo problem.

30:19Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)If if you want, you can. But, otherwise, you got the full ninety seconds.

30:23Jonathan ShelleyYeah. The Bible teaches that Jesus Christ is the word. The word became flesh and dwelt among us. We also have the Bible making it obviously clear that Jesus Christ is the word of God since it's literally written on his thigh.

30:35Jonathan ShelleyJay is making a distinction that the scripture does not make.

30:38Jay DyerI asked you a passage.

30:40Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)Are you talking about We're still in his we're still in his ninety seconds.

30:43Jonathan ShelleyObviously, we can... The scriptures... Of course, the... We believe that the word of God is also the father speaking. It's God's word. But there's a a unique,

30:53Jonathan Shelleythere's a unique overlap between the word of God and Jesus Christ that the Bible clearly articulates.

30:58Jonathan ShelleyYou can take one verse and try to pretend like the Bible doesn't teach that Jesus Christ is the word, but that's what the Bible says repeatedly

31:06Jonathan Shelleyin multiple places.

31:07Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)Okay.

31:07Jonathan ShelleyWhat is... Why is it called why is he called the

31:09Speaker 3word if he's not the word

31:10Jay Dyerof God? I mean, this is so silly. This is a equivocation fallacy. So you understand what equivocation is?

31:15Jay DyerObviously, you you don't need this. What equivocation is. Sure.

31:19Jonathan ShelleyMaking two things equivalent that aren't truly equivalent. I understand the point that you're trying

31:23Jay Dyerto make. Disagree.

31:25Jay DyerIn John one, when it says that the word became flesh and dwelt among us, is that the Bible, or is that the incarnation?

31:32Jonathan ShelleyJesus Christ is a person. I'm not gonna disagree with anybody's

31:36Jay Dyerperson. Is... In John one... Stop, man. You don't answer any questions. In John one,

31:41Jay Dyerwhen it says the word became flesh and dwelt among us, is that talking about the Bible? Because on your view, it has to be one or the

31:47Jonathan Shelleyother, or is it talking about him taking human nature? It's the person Jesus Christ, but he is the word as well.

31:53Jay DyerI'm not asking that. What is it when it

31:55Jonathan Shelleysays the word? Person.

31:56Speaker 3What else do you want me to say?

31:57Jay DyerThank you. So it's not talking about the Bible there. Right?

32:00Jonathan ShelleyI believe that Jesus Christ is the word of God.

32:02Jay DyerSo I know you believe that. I'm not asking

32:03Speaker 3you You can't

32:04Speaker 3separate

32:05Jonathan Shelleythese two things.

32:06Jay DyerAnd John won't He's not

32:07Jonathan Shelleyseparating. Same thing.

32:08Jay DyerI'm not separating. I'm demonstrating that there's a distinction between the incarnation of the word becoming flesh

32:15Jay Dyerand his message in the written text. And you just admitted that that's talking about the incarnation, so you're admitting that word doesn't always refer to the Bible. Right?

32:23Jonathan ShelleyWord could have different context. I I understand that.

32:26Speaker 3Oh, thank you. But it can

32:27Jonathan Shelleyalso have the context that I clearly illustrated.

32:29Jay DyerI'm not... Never denied I never denied that. Does it

32:32Jonathan Shelleymean, Jay, when it says on his thigh, the word of God? What does that mean?

32:37Jay DyerHe is this... He is the logos, the word of God from all eternity.

32:41Jay DyerSo you keep trying to make some

32:42Jonathan Shelleydistinction that the Bible doesn't make.

32:44Jay DyerYou just admitted the distinction, you idiot. What are you talking about? You just admitted that word doesn't always refer to the Bible or the the written text. That's all I have to demonstrate to show you that I said that it's fallacy

32:54Jonathan Shelleyin a particular context.

32:55Jay DyerYou keep making... You... Just saying that it's a different context doesn't answer this question. The word became flesh, dwelt among us. You said that's referring to the incarnation.

33:04Jay DyerSo word there is not directly referencing or referring to the written text of scripture. Correct?

33:10Jonathan ShelleyObviously, sometimes when the Bible's talking about the word of the Lord, it can be referring to just the scripture that we have written down. And so that is referring to the person. But you're trying to make a distinction and say these are are two completely different

33:22Jay Dyeris the is the Bible a written created text?

33:25Jonathan ShelleyThe Bible was delivered in in part to man, but the Bible is never existent. It's eternal. I believe the word of God is eternal. It's always existent.

33:32Jay DyerBible, not the second person of the Godhead. You think the Bible is eternal?

33:36Jay DyerYes. So you're a polytheist because you believe in the father, the son, and holy spirit, and a book that you're a Muslim?

33:41Jonathan ShelleyNo. Because the bible teaches the father, the word, and the holy ghost. These three are one. There's there's three that

33:45Jay Dyerwill exist. You just admitted that John one makes a distinction between the eternal personal logos.

33:51Jonathan ShelleySometimes the text is telling

33:52Jay Dyerus talking about either the person in heaven or an in

33:57Jay DyerDude, is this book in my hand?

33:58Jonathan ShelleyI believe it's a living. The word of God is living. Is this a creation?

34:02Jonathan ShelleyNo. It's always existed.

34:04Jay DyerSo you're an idolater. You believe that

34:05Speaker 3this is an idolater.... Created book.

34:08Jonathan ShelleyI don't I don't idolize

34:09Jonathan Shelleyin my hand,

34:10Jay Dyeris it eternal? Where was this before the creation

34:12Jonathan Shelleyof physical book is not.

34:13Jay DyerYes. Oh. The physical book is Thank you. So you made a distinction, which is the very distinction that I'm trying to make. The word of God from all eternity is the second person of the Trinity, the logos.

34:23Jay DyerThis is a created thing that came into being. It's not eternal.

34:28Jay DyerAre you this stupid?

34:29Jonathan ShelleyThe physical book that you hold in your hand Yes. Obviously

34:32Jonathan Shelleydoesn't exist. The words

34:33Jonathan Shelleyinside of it

34:34Jay Dyerare The Bible is a physical book.

34:37Jonathan ShelleyOkay. No one knows that. The physical body of Jesus

34:41Jonathan Shelleycame into existence in the incarnation,

34:43Jonathan Shelleybut Jesus has not created being just because he has manifested himself.

34:48Jay DyerThat I argue you're making straw man. I never I never argue with

34:51Jonathan Shelleythe station and creation. The word of God was manifested in different times.

34:55Jay DyerDude, shut up. I never argued that the second person of the Trinity was a creature.

35:00Jay DyerI said that he is the God of mercy. He said it was created. He's...

35:05Jay DyerYou keep equivocating

35:07Jay Dyerbetween uses of word. It doesn't always refer to the second person of the trinity. Sometimes it's referring to a written text.

35:14Jay DyerI believe that. That's why my argument shows you that the or... The apostles say the oral teaching is also the word of God.

35:22Jay DyerThe word of God preached to you. So do you actually think that when Paul was teaching for three years straight in Ephesus day and night that he only cited scripture verses?

35:32Jonathan ShelleyI believe he only appealed to scripture verses as the scripture, but he obviously gave

35:36Jay Dyerthe source of the reading.

35:37Jonathan ShelleySure. Absolutely. It's not scripture.

35:39Jay DyerIt

35:39Jay Dyerdoesn't... I know it's not scripture. It's the oral tradition

35:42Speaker 3of Corinthians chapter seven as his personal opinion.

35:45Jonathan ShelleyObviously, not everything that that the apostle Paul said was scripture. Does he understand? There's a difference.

35:50Jay DyerI I want you to restate the argument because I don't even think you're capable of doing that. I am arguing that Paul taught for three days or three years, day and night in Ephesus.

35:59Jay DyerAnd in the letters to Timothy, he commands Timothy to pass on everything that he heard from Paul. Is that only written text?

36:07Jonathan ShelleyI have nothing... I have no problem with traditions or oral teachings being passed down That's not what I'm asking. Long as they are in in compliance with scripture. I'm... You're you're just not understanding

36:17Jay Dyerwhat you think is scripture or whether you think that works or not. I'm asking you, does Paul command Timothy to pass on everything that he heard Paul teach? Sure.

36:26Jay DyerOkay. Thank you. So Paul was teaching the word of God. Correct?

36:30Jonathan ShelleyPaul preached the word of God. Okay. Orly?

36:34Jonathan ShelleyHe's... He spake out loud the scriptures that I hold in my hand.

36:37Jay DyerYes. So you keep equivocating because you know that he's interpreting those texts. You don't think so?

36:42Jonathan ShelleyI don't think his interpretation is the... Is divine or infallible. But at the end of the day, obviously, the scriptures are.

36:48Jonathan ShelleyPaul can have opinion that he the question

36:50Jay Dyerbecause I'm not asking you.

36:52Jonathan ShelleySaid in first Corinthians chapter seven, he wasn't even sure if his opinion was right. He said, I think I have the spirit of God. You just keep ignoring that. That's not talk... That's talk... Tradition can be wrong. Paul could be wrong. Paul is wrong in parts of the New Testament. Oh. Peter is wrong in parts the

37:07Jay Dyeris New wrong in parts

37:08Jonathan Shelleythe

37:09Jonathan ShelleyTestament. How is your church in Palamites when all of the when all

37:12Jay Dyerof the apostles So you're saying the

37:13Speaker 3New Testament

37:14Speaker 3churches were wrong.

37:14Jay DyerYou just said that the New Testament has teachings that are wrong?

37:17Jonathan ShelleyPaul? Yes. Of course, it was... People are lying or or teaching the most doctrine. But what Jezebel teaches in Revelation is Paul is not.

37:24Speaker 3You said Is it right?

37:26Jay DyerPaul has things wrong.

37:27Jonathan ShelleyYou said sacrificed on the devils. Is that right?

37:29Jay DyerYou said Paul has things wrong.

37:31Jonathan ShelleyPaul was wrong at one point. He was he was trying to get people

37:34Jay Dyerto get... So now you don't even agree with Paul. What are you gonna... If Paul's teachings are scripture...

37:38Jonathan ShelleyThe of Acts are just a history book. It's not telling us what's right and wrong.

37:41Speaker 3It's just telling us what happened. What?

37:42Jonathan ShelleyThere's things that they did in the book of Acts that were wrong. What Peter did was wrong, and he was rebuked by the apostle Paul.

37:48Jay DyerNo. No. I'm talking about teachings because Paul is commanding the church at Thessalonica.

37:53Speaker 3What does this even have to do? How are you How is this proving oral

37:56Jonathan Shelleytradition over the top

37:57Jay Dyerof this Paul is commanding the oral tradition that he taught to the Thessalonians and to Timothy at Ephesus to pass on those teachings. Are you saying that those are wrong?

38:06Jonathan ShelleyI believe that what we have in scripture is right.

38:09Jay DyerYou saying that the oral teaching any oral teachings that didn't Why last

38:12Jonathan Shelleyare you not answering the question? Scrutinized. I don't know what all he taught. How how could I know what he taught at every single institution?

38:18Jay DyerDoesn't matter what three years. I'm asking you, should he have taught that? Does he say that? Does he say, keep my oral traditions?

38:26Jonathan ShelleyYes. The traditions that

38:27Jay Dyerthat he says have your view. You're just begging the question. How do you even know that? You you just said you don't know what the oral traditions were, so how do you know that they're not in accord?

38:38Jonathan ShelleyObviously, everything should be tested with scripture. But the apostle Paul did give traditions

38:42Jay DyerYou just got caught the churches. You just said you don't know what the oral traditions were, so then how can you say that they're not... You you don't know if they're in

38:50Jonathan Shelleythe I can't know everything the apostle Paul taught.

38:53Jay DyerNo. We're not... Now you're deflecting again.

38:54Jonathan ShelleyYou said You know everything the apostle Paul taught.

38:56Jay DyerWhy? That's a do do quoque way. You said specifically

38:59Jay Dyerthe oral traditions

39:01Jonathan Shelleyapostle Paul taught.

39:01Jay DyerHow do you know that they're not right if you don't know what they were?

39:06Jonathan ShelleyIt... It's irrelevant to the conversation.

39:07Jay DyerI think So it's not. It's about world

39:08Jonathan Shelleytradition. It is irrelevant.

39:09Speaker 3All I have is the scripture.

39:11Jay DyerI can go on that. World tradi... It's the New Testament text about world tradition. How could

39:14Jonathan Shelleyit be irrelevant?

39:16Jonathan ShelleyBecause who knows what it is? What what is it? What is it? Then how do you what's wrong? The world traditions. If nobody knows.

39:21Jay DyerAnd if you don't know, how do you know it's wrong?

39:24Jonathan ShelleyWe're we're... You're arguing about a hypothetical.

39:26Jay DyerThis is ridiculous.

39:28Jay DyerContradicted yourself.

39:29Jonathan ShelleyWhat is... Give me one example.

39:30Jay DyerOne example how...

39:32Jay DyerI'm not gonna let it go because you contradict yourself. You said I didn't contradict anything. Yes. You did. You said that we don't know what the old tradition is, and so how do you know that it's wrong?

39:42Jonathan ShelleyOkay.

39:43Jonathan ShelleyObviously,

39:44Jonathan Shelleyit's like, how do you know that watermelons aren't really blue on the inside until you cut them open? No. You just admit This is a silly is a silly idea. No.

39:51Jay DyerIt's not.

39:51Jonathan ShelleyHow would I know

39:53Jay DyerYou admitted Paul taught. If Paul

39:54Jonathan Shelleytaught was right or wrong if I don't even know what it is. You don't know what it is.

39:56Jay DyerYou admitted he teaches all the

39:57Jonathan ShelleyNo one knows what it is. We don't have every single thing that Paul

40:01Jonathan Shelleytaught. No.

40:01Jay DyerWe know... We we have in the orthodox church a basis and a tradition. You have no basis at all. So I wanna know how you know it's wrong.

40:07Jonathan ShelleyIs scripture.

40:08Jonathan ShelleyThat's what was preserved.

40:09Jay DyerYou haven't demonstrated that because Scripture is preserved. Again, I want you to address the contradiction. You said that we don't know what Paul taught, so then how do you know that it's wrong?

40:20Jonathan ShelleyWhy would I go in a hypothetical of something that doesn't It's your claim.

40:24Jay DyerIt's not a hypothetical. It's what you said.

40:27Jonathan ShelleyYes. I still agree. I agree. I don't know what Paul taught.

40:30Jay DyerDo you know do you know it's wrong? If you don't know the oral teaching that Paul gave, how do you know that it's wrong?

40:34Speaker 3This this this is, like, silly. You're just No. It's not.

40:37Jonathan ShelleyYou just constantly deflect, and you won't your even answer a question. Claim. Answering nothing.

40:42Jonathan ShelleyIt's your claim. Have you even answered a single question?

40:44Jay DyerYou never answered a question.

40:46Jonathan ShelleyWhat did Paul teach?

40:48Jonathan ShelleyDid you claim that?

40:49Jonathan ShelleyI never claimed that I knew what Paul taught.

40:51Jay DyerNo. Why are you deflecting?

40:53Jay DyerYou said two contradictory things. You said on the one hand, we don't know what the oral tradition was that you admitted Paul passed on. Then you implied that it's wrong, and it can be subject to being rejected. Said that

41:04Jonathan Shelleythe apostle Paul did things that are

41:06Jay Dyerwrong in the book of Acts. No. The oral tradition in this passage. You're conflating to

41:10Jonathan Shelleythe oral tradition. You're not Let's talking say anything that I'm saying.

41:12Jay DyerI'm not talking about the

41:14Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)One one

41:16Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)at time. One at time. Gentlemen over here. Hold on.

41:18Jay DyerJust to

41:18Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)be sure we can hear you guys.

41:20Jay DyerDo you think Paul taught error?

41:25Jonathan ShelleyHe said things that were inaccurate in Did he teach error? In book of in in the book of acts.

41:30Jay DyerSo how do you know that

41:31Jonathan Shelleyhe's not anybody's in fact.

41:33Jay DyerHow do you know that he's not

41:34Jonathan Shelleyteaching error elsewhere?

41:36Jonathan ShelleyThe apostle Paul admits that he taught error for the vast majority of his life until he came to Christ. Then, obviously, being seriously having over time.

41:43Jay DyerI'm talking about during the period of him being an apostle, not before his life, obviously. Stop deflecting.

41:50Jonathan ShelleyDeflecting. Ice... In the book of Acts, the apostle Paul is compelling. Teach error.

41:54Jay DyerI'm not asking you, did he make a mistake? This

41:56Jonathan Shelleyis false. It's wrong.

41:57Jonathan ShelleyThen he corrects himself in the book of Galatians.

42:00Jonathan ShelleyWe have the apostle Paul correcting the the apostle Peter in the book of Galatians.

42:05Jay DyerHow does how does correcting Peter Did Paul correct Peter? I'm

42:11Jay Dyerasking about Did Paul correct Peter? I wanna... I... I'm not... Yeah. Don't have to You wanna answer a question.

42:16Jonathan ShelleyThat's... This is the debate. Of course, he's correct. Answer zero questions.

42:19Jay DyerOf course he

42:19Jonathan Shelleycan't answer a simple question.

42:21Jay DyerOf course he corrected...

42:23Jay DyerCorrect Peter. Of course he corrected Peter.

42:25Jonathan ShelleyWhat does that do apostles. Right? Dude, you made the argument that he taught error.

42:29Jonathan ShelleyIf they're both apostles,

42:31Jonathan Shelleythen how did how did the apostle Paul know that

42:35Jonathan ShelleyMoral error? How did the apostle Paul know that Peter was wrong?

42:37Jay DyerDo you not know the difference between moral error and theological error? They're two different things.

42:42Jonathan ShelleyThe apostle How

42:43Jay Dyerdid he know apostles though? The apostles can sin. It doesn't mean that they are fallible and taught heresies and error.

42:49Jonathan ShelleySure.

42:51Jonathan ShelleySo so nobody ever taught any error in the New Testament?

42:54Jay DyerThe apostles are infallible. They do not teach error.

42:57Jonathan ShelleySo here are infallible. Peter made a mistake. Right? Can you show me a verse on that?

43:01Jay DyerYeah. You don't believe the apostles are infallible?

43:04Jonathan ShelleyNo.

43:04Jay DyerThen

43:06Jay Dyerwho compiled the scriptures?

43:09Jonathan ShelleyMan.

43:11Jonathan ShelleyAll received the word of God. Timothy received an epistle from the above and recognizes scripture. He's not infallible.

43:17Jay DyerWho compiled them?

43:19Jonathan ShelleyChristians.

43:20Jay DyerWhat man? Who? When?

43:22Jay DyerTons of Christians throughout history. Who? When?

43:25Jonathan ShelleyAll of them. Mean, let's let's just be honest. We have multiple churches. We have multiple churches, new testament,

43:31Jay Dyerpower to the epistles. You're passing

43:33Jonathan Shelleythem around. The debate. They're copying them.

43:35Jay DyerYou just lost the debate.

43:36Jonathan ShelleyI haven't lost anything. You can't you can never tell me how your church is invallible.

43:41Jay DyerYou showed zero verses that you're lost....

43:43Jonathan ShelleyInvallible. Every time I ask you a question, you can't show anything. It's just trust me, bro.

43:47Jay DyerNo. Want Our church is a perfect person. Jesus says in the gospel of John that he would be with the church until the end of the world, and he would lead and guide them into all truth. So, yes, the apostle So you just appealed the scripture and the church in church. So your sola scriptura. Not a problem in

43:59Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)the a to be sure.

44:01Jay DyerSo just

44:02Jonathan Shelleyto make it clear, your church is infallible because of scripture.

44:05Jay DyerNo. So so sola scriptura. You literally cannot think outside of... The fact that I appeal to the scriptures doesn't mean

44:11Jonathan ShelleyI have your paradigm.

44:13Jonathan ShelleyYour paradigm is that to to prove that your church is infallible, you appeal to scripture, which is the final authority because No. It's not.

44:20Jay DyerNo. In my paradigm, the scriptures are an authority. They're not the only authority. But you can't think outside of your paradigm because you don't even understand where the scriptures came from, and that's why you can't tell me who put them together and when.

44:31Jonathan ShelleyTell me what Paul wrote letters to churches in in the first century. Correct?

44:35Jay DyerWho compiled the kenosis scripture?

44:37Jay DyerWhen?

44:39Jonathan ShelleyThere's

44:40Jonathan Shelleymany different people that have Who? Buy a different list at different times.

44:43Jay DyerWho and... Okay. So which one's the right one?

44:46Jonathan ShelleyObviously, I believe the King James Bible, the 66 are correct.

44:49Jay DyerCare what you believe. How do you prove that?

44:51Jonathan ShelleyHow do you prove that you have the right criteria?

44:53Jay DyerAre you doing a tu quoque fallacy? I'm asking you.

44:56Jonathan ShelleyObviously, the divine voice. I already pointed this. The divine voice,

45:00Jonathan Shelleyand clearly, we have internal consistency.

45:02Jonathan ShelleyThe seven deuterocanonical

45:03Jonathan Shelleybooks, the So where is the are not internally consistent.

45:07Jonathan ShelleyIs the divine by all the Christians. They're not received by everybody that is saved.

45:11Jay DyerAdditionally, your church Where is the divine voice telling you that that's the right canon?

45:16Speaker 3So do you believe there's no difference

45:18Jay Dyerbetween sheep bearing, doctor Seuss? Where is the divine voice telling you that the Protestant canon is correct?

45:25Jonathan ShelleyThe divine voice... Is what Jesus said. Jesus said, my sheep hear

45:28Jay Dyermy voice.

45:29Jay DyerYou believe that? The canon?

45:30Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)Hold on just to hear the response.

45:32Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)On.

45:33Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)Just to

45:36Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)is

45:37Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)be that if he's in mid sentence answering you, Jay, I do have to give him a chance to finish the sentence.

45:43Jonathan ShelleyHow does Timothy know what the scripture is without a church council, and how do the first three hundred years of Christians know how to even operate? They lived, died before he ever had any of your ecumenical councils. How do they know what the scripture is? How did any of the Old Testament saints know what the scripture is?

45:58Jay DyerDid you hear me argue that an ecumenical council is necessary to have scriptures? Did you hear me argue that?

46:04Jonathan ShelleyI'm just wanna know. You had a question. You just keep asking me do you know what the scripture is?

46:08Jay DyerDid you hear me argue that?

46:09Jonathan ShelleyThen explain to me, how do you know what the scripture is, Jay?

46:12Jay DyerWell, we have a lot of reasons and bases to know the scripture. One is the tradition of the church, first and foremost, because, for example, with Matthew,

46:20Jay DyerI don't know that Matthew the apostle wrote the gospel of Matthew

46:23Jay Dyerwithout the testimony and tradition of the apostolic churches that passed on the gospel of Matthew because Matthew doesn't tell me. And if apostolic authorship is one of the important criteria

46:34Jay Dyerfor Matthew being in the Bible, then I have to rely on church tradition to even know what the scriptures are, and that refutes you.

46:43Jonathan ShelleySo you said that you you you got the the Bible from your church tradition. How did Timothy know

46:48Jay Dyerthat No. Everybody was scripture. Everybody got the Bible from their church tradition.

46:52Jonathan ShelleyHow does Timothy know it was scripture?

46:56Jay DyerWell, the Old Testament Jews had their own testimony. They had their own groups

47:01Jay Dyerof men that would meet together. They had a Levite Levitical priesthood that was an authority. So even the Old Testament has recognized authorities. And if you look at doctor Beau Branson's debate that I had with him and

47:12Jay DyerDale the Protestant, we go into depth about even the Old Testament operated in a synodal way. So they had authorities that are called the Levites, Levitical priesthood, which exeguted the law and bound people's consciences.

47:24Jay DyerSo there is an authority structure

47:26Jay Dyerin Israel and the attestation that prophets have, absolutely, I believe, in internal consistency,

47:32Jay Dyercoherency with the rest of the scriptures. If Obadiah starts preaching, he has to preach in continuity

47:37Jay Dyerwith the other texts. But that doesn't prove that it's sola scriptura because as I argue about

47:43Jay Dyeron the testimony, the testimony is the oral tradition.

47:48Jonathan ShelleyIf the Levitical priesthood at the time of Christ is rebuked for having created traditions that are in violation of the scripture, why is that not still true today?

47:59Jay DyerAre you asking about rabbinic teachings?

48:01Jay DyerBecause Christ is the superior authority over those priests.

48:05Jonathan ShelleyHe appealed to scripture. He said that you fool He

48:08Speaker 3also appealed You fool or reject the

48:10Jay DyerHe also appealed to tradition.

48:12Jay DyerYour... To keep your own tradition.

48:14Jay DyerCan these priests be wrong in the attestment? I

48:18Jay Dyerappealing

48:19Jay Dyerdon't have a to the scriptures in my paradigm. There's nothing wrong with that. But Jesus also appealed to tradition as I showed you.

48:26Jonathan ShelleyHe appealed to tradition? When? Absolutely. Show me a verse in

48:29Jay Dyerthe In Matthew 23.

48:31Jay DyerIn Matthew 23, he

48:32Jonathan Shelleysaid Matthew 23.

48:33Jay DyerThe scribes and the pharisees sit in the seat of Moses. Therefore, do as they say and not as they do. Can you show me in the Old Testament where there's a seat of Moses that the pharisees have?

48:43Jonathan ShelleyThe the Levitical

48:44Jonathan Shelleypriesthood was ordained by Moses.

48:46Jay DyerWhere is the seat of Moses that the Pharisees have in seat? The position, obviously, in the old set authority? Where in the Old Testament does it say that the Pharisees or any future lineage would have authority from Moses to sit in his seat? Priest that

48:59Speaker 3it was never... Was supposed to be

49:00Jay Dyersit in Moses' seat. They obviously rebelled. Are the pharisees levitical priests?

49:06Jonathan ShelleyNo. That's the sadducees.

49:07Jay DyerOh, well,

49:08Jay Dyernot all of them. No.

49:10Jonathan ShelleyThey're coming from Zadokos.

49:11Jay DyerSo how do the pharisees lay

49:13Jonathan Shelleyin the seat? How do they

49:14Jay Dyersit in seat

49:16Jay Dyerof Moses? Moses is not a political priest.

49:20Jay DyerLevi, his brother, is the priesthood. How do they sit

49:23Jonathan Shelleyin seat after

49:24Jonathan Shelleyhe died, is

49:26Jonathan Shelleyno longer in charge. Where in the old the high priest

49:29Jay Dyerof priesthood.

49:30Jay DyerOkay.

49:31Jonathan ShelleySo then where in the old priesthood.

49:32Jay DyerThen where in the old testament is there the idea that Moses has a seat that people occupy?

49:38Jonathan ShelleyI already explained it to you that the the The Levi priests are not Moses.

49:42Jonathan ShelleyThey're ordained by Moses. Moses gave them that authority,

49:45Jonathan Shelleyand so they're in the authority that

49:47Jay Dyerwas seat of Moses, I guess.

49:48Jonathan ShelleyMoses obviously put the garments on Aaron in where is a ironic priesthood in the Old Testament?

49:53Jay DyerThe ironic priesthood is not Moses. Where is a seat of Moses?

49:57Jonathan ShelleyWhat tribe is Moses from?

49:59Jonathan ShelleyThe Levitical priesthood is from the

50:02Jonathan Shelleyquestion. What tribe is Moses from? It

50:05Jonathan Shelleyit doesn't matter. What tribe is Moses from? Is Moses... I wanna answer the question.

50:08Jay DyerIs he a Levitical priest? Is it because he's from Levi?

50:11Jay DyerIs he a Levitical priest? Is he a Levitical priest or is it his brother?

50:15Jonathan ShelleyHe was the one that was in charge of the word named after? Aaron

50:19Jonathan ShelleyWhat's it named after? Aaron became became the the high high priest. Priest.

50:23Jonathan ShelleyNot Moses.

50:25Jonathan ShelleyAgain, Moses was the authority in the Old Testament.

50:27Jay DyerNo Thank you. So so has Moses you... Why...

50:30Jonathan ShelleyWhat is Jesus Jesus appealing to the Old Testament? Where... You didn't use the word tradition. Not talking about Jesus taught tradition, and you don't have any anything to tell

50:39Jay DyerStop lying, dude. You're such a liar. In Matthew 23,

50:42Jay DyerJesus is talking about the scribes and pharisees sitting in the seat of Moses. He doesn't mention the Levitical priests.

50:50Jonathan ShelleyWhat is what is the seat of Moses then?

50:53Jay DyerExactly. It's a tradition, and it's recognized by all the scholars that comment on this that it's a tradition that Jesus is referring to, that there's a succession of teachers of the law formed under the time of Ezra. So when Ezra created the synagogue system,

51:06Jay Dyerthey had the seat of Moses. They're not the Levites. Do you know how we know this?

51:11Jay DyerBecause they had that authority in the diaspora period.

51:14Jonathan ShelleySo you're just appealing to rabbinic teachings on this to

51:18Jay DyerNo. Jesus is appealing to the

51:19Jonathan Shelleyrabbinic teaching.

51:20Jay DyerAny competent New Testament scholar, even amongst Protestants, will admit that Jesus in Matthew 23 is appealing to tradition.

51:28Jonathan ShelleyDidn't ordain the Levitical priesthood, and we're not talking about them.

51:31Jay DyerWhat are you even talking about? Do you understand the argument I just made that it's about Ezra

51:35Jay Dyerforming the synagogue system, which is where

51:38Jay Dyeryou get the scribes and the pharisees as authoritative teachers? That is not the Levitical priesthood. How do I know this? Because in the diaspora,

51:46Jay Dyerthey had authority to teach the scribes and the pharisees.

51:49Jonathan ShelleySo why why is Jesus being rebuked for not keeping the tradition of the elders?

51:55Jay DyerDid you not hear the opening statement? I said there are traditions

51:58Jay Dyerthat are false that replace the word of God. We know it's a false religion

52:02Jonathan Shelleyand a good tradition?

52:03Jay DyerJeremiah 20... Jeremiah even refers to the scribes and the pharisees attempting to change the law and come up with man made traditions. So when Jesus, in Matthew 23,

52:12Jay Dyermakes this argument, he's referring back to Jeremiah.

52:15Jonathan ShelleyBut you which traditions are right and wrong?

52:17Jay DyerBecause

52:19Jay Dyerof what the New Testament and the Old Testament teach and the oral tradition of the church. They are all authorities.

52:26Jay DyerWait. Wait.

52:26Jonathan ShelleyWait. Wait. The Old and New Testament, but the oral traditions of the church. How do I know an Old Testament

52:31Jonathan Shelleytradition is right or wrong without the church?

52:34Jay DyerYou don't. Because the church has

52:36Jonathan Shelleya no one can

52:36Jay Dyerknow the... No. I didn't say that. That's a false that's a false non sequitur. I said the church has an integral role in interpreting and confirming

52:44Jay Dyerand creating the canon of scripture. That's why you can't tell me when the canon even came about or who did it. You have no idea. You just said it's a bunch of people, all the Christians at some point.

52:54Jonathan ShelleyThe the scripture was a scripture regardless of who could identify it or not. I don't believe that the word of God could be identified

53:00Jay DyerThat's begging the question to be the

53:01Jonathan Shelleyword of God.

53:02Jay DyerOkay. Name somebody in the first three centuries that had your canon scripture.

53:06Jonathan ShelleyWell, again, you... Doesn't matter.

53:08Jay DyerIt doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. You just claim that it was the scriptures no matter what. So name somebody that had your canon.

53:16Jonathan ShelleyWhy does it matter who I could point to?

53:19Jay DyerBecause you're a sect that's made up after the Reformation,

53:22Jay Dyerand nobody had your views in the first two hundred years or the first thousand years.

53:24Jonathan ShelleyI... I'm using the 66 books, and you agree

53:26Jay Dyerwith me.

53:27Jonathan ShelleyI don't care if believe the 66 books

53:28Speaker 3are

53:29Speaker 3believe the 66

53:30Jonathan Shelleybooks You know what

53:30Jay Dyerfallacies are?

53:31Jonathan ShelleyThe difference is you you believe the apocrypha, and I don't. No. How how does how does Athonatius

53:37Jonathan Shelleyin three hundred and eighteen AD say that the scriptures are sufficient for preaching the truth without your canon?

53:43Jay DyerHe doesn't have your canon. Do you understand that the book of Revelation is only in the scriptures because Athanasius convinced Rome? So do you think Athanasius was infallible?

53:51Jay DyerNo. Absolutely not. Okay. So then how was it that he was the one that

53:54Jonathan ShelleyHow could he make that claim, though?

53:55Jay DyerHow was he that

53:56Jonathan Shelleyhe was... He's he's begging the question. Where...

53:58Jay DyerHow does he know what the scriptures are? How could he even make that claim? Apostolic tradition.

54:03Jonathan ShelleyDid he get the the apostles handed down to him?

54:06Jay DyerHe got the apostolic tradition handed down to him, which you rely

54:09Jonathan Shelleyon to call that Peter handed to

54:10Jay Dyerknow that Matthew wrote Matthew. How do you know Matthew wrote Matthew?

54:13Jonathan ShelleyWho who handed the scriptures you? Athanasius.

54:17Jay DyerHow do you know Matthew wrote Matthew?

54:19Jonathan ShelleyHow do the guys for the first hundred, two hundred, three hundred years know which one was the handout? Tradition. Which ones did they know which to handout?

54:26Jay DyerRead those people in the first, second, third century? Have you ever read them?

54:29Jonathan ShelleySo where did they give

54:30Jay Dyerus a we can read them? Did they give us a list?

54:34Jay DyerDo you not listen to what I'm saying? Do you know we can go read these people? I argue that there's conflicting The

54:40Jay Dyerchurch fathers of first, second, third century who passed on these texts.

54:42Jonathan ShelleyYou said the apostles are the one handing them down.

54:44Speaker 3Where is the where

54:45Jay Dyeris the apostolic sassinated

54:47Jay Dyeryour church?

54:49Jay DyerIn the apostolic seas to the successors to the apostles, when you go read Ignatius, Clement, or any of the first second century church fathers, they talk about being the successors to the apostles. They talk about the bishop. Ignatius says the bishop represents God the father to the church. They, as

55:03Jonathan Shelleya limit, know which things they hand down.

55:05Jay DyerFrom the apostolic tradition. I've answered this 10 times to you. Because they were taught and ordained by apostles.

55:11Jonathan ShelleySo the apostles had a list, they handed them a list?

55:14Jay DyerThere is no list of the canon. That's what I'm trying to tell you.

55:17Jonathan ShelleySo then how do they know what scripture is?

55:19Jay DyerBecause of the tradition of the church.

55:22Speaker 3You just you just... It's a circular argument. No.

55:24Jay DyerIt's not... Just blame, oh, the

55:25Speaker 3apostles just handed them the Bible...

55:27Jay DyerBecause you're

55:27Speaker 3ignorant. Because they just handed them the Bible. You

55:29Jay Dyerjust never make it the same circular argument. No.

55:32Jay DyerIf you look at the history of the formation of the canon, in the apostolic seas in the Roman Empire, there are there are multiple different competing canons because when the apostles go out, they establish

55:42Jay Dyersuccessors and churches that don't have all the text. So if Paul writes a letter to the Thessalonians, the church of Thessaloniki

55:49Jay Dyermight have two gospels

55:51Jay Dyerand some of Paul's epistles and some of Peter, and they might not have the book of Revelation. This is very common knowledge, basic history of the canon of text. Right? And then by the fourth, fifth, sixth century, the church meets to try to collate and figure out

56:06Jay Dyerwhat the actual canonical texts are. Now as I argued in my opening statement Where...

56:11Jonathan ShelleyNo. No. No. How how does that

56:12Speaker 3even make sense? If the apostle already gave you all

56:14Jay Dyerthe scripture, it said, man, is.

56:15Jonathan ShelleyFigured out what it is.

56:16Jay DyerIt doesn't matter whether you think makes sense.

56:18Jonathan ShelleyHand them a list?

56:19Jay DyerWhat are you talking about? It doesn't even matter whether you think it makes sense because I gave you the actual history of how it went down. That's what Protestant is standard by which the first

56:27Jonathan Shelleythree hundred years of of of Christianity

56:29Jonathan ShelleyYou don't even know they have no idea what the scripture is.

56:32Jay DyerYou can't name one church farther that even had your canon. So why should I... You have no knowledge it.

56:36Jonathan ShelleyI mean, saint Jerome is basically...

56:38Jay DyerI'm just saying...... First three centuries. He's not the first three.

56:40Speaker 3Oh, so why is it three? Why isn't it two?

56:42Jonathan ShelleyWhy isn't it four? I mean, you're just making up numbers now.

56:45Jay DyerNo. I'm not. You just make up...

56:46Jonathan ShelleyWell, look, where is this in the Bible the first three centuries...

56:48Jay DyerYou made the argument. You said pre Nicaea. How did anybody know? So I'm asking you the same question. So pre Nicaea, who had your canon of scripture?

56:57Jonathan ShelleyAgain, I would think any Christian

56:59Jonathan Shelleyknew

57:00Jay DyerWas sola

57:01Jay Dyerhanded them down. When

57:02Jonathan Shelleythey got Matthew, when they got Mark, when they got the

57:05Jay Dyerthe Was sola written

57:06Jonathan Shelleyin Ephesus,

57:07Jonathan Shelleythey they were like, this is obviously the word of God. And so they copied them, and they handed them

57:11Jay Dyersomebody that had your canon. Should be easy.

57:14Jonathan ShelleyI don't care what person

57:16Jay DyerBecause nobody had the Protestant candidate in that sense.

57:19Speaker 3We obviously had them passing down

57:20Jonathan Shelleythe Bible because we have it today.

57:21Jay DyerThe full I have

57:22Speaker 3I have these apostles because they passed them

57:24Jay Dyerstupid.

57:25Jay DyerI'm not asking you if there were all the manuscripts throughout the Roman Empire. I'm saying name a church father in the first three centuries pre nacia that cares about church fathers. Are they infallible?

57:35Jonathan ShelleyThey preserved the infallible?

57:37Jay DyerBecause they put it together, you idiot.

57:39Jay DyerWhich church fathers?

57:41Jay DyerYou don't even... You can't name one. You don't know anything about this church.

57:44Speaker 3Are you disagree with Jerome?

57:46Jonathan ShelleyI mean, Jerome didn't believe that the apocrypha was legit.

57:49Jay DyerOn what basis am I supposed to go with Jerome on your view?

57:53Speaker 3You... You're just cherry picking church history to just

57:55Jay Dyerpick your own narrative.

57:56Jonathan ShelleyNo. No. The orthodox wanna say, oh, no. These guys decided what I like.

58:00Jay DyerThis like heretic. And so you think that you just pick one church father. Will you go with the mind of the two any church fathers. I'm saying

58:07Jonathan ShelleyI don't care about them.

58:08Jay DyerYou said Jerome.

58:10Jay DyerYou said name somebody that had

58:11Jonathan Shelleya similar canon, so I named somebody. I don't peeled it Why are Rome as authoritative?

58:16Jonathan ShelleyI don't care

58:16Speaker 3if Rome got... Jerome got it right or wrong.

58:18Jay DyerSo you're relying on people passing down texts that...

58:21Jonathan ShelleyChristians

58:23Jonathan Shelleyrecognize God's word, and they pass them down to Christians of every generation. What Christians? The churches and the church at Ephesus Name some of the and Corinth,

58:30Jonathan Shelleyand, you know, you have the apostle Paul, you have Timothy second

58:33Jay Dyerand third century.

58:34Jonathan ShelleyName a Christian church.

58:36Speaker 3Have Name. All these guys

58:37Jay Dyerwho can't

58:38Jay Dyername. You can't name a Christian in the second and third century that had your view.

58:43Jonathan ShelleyAll of the Christians in the first century that were saved had my view because

58:47Jay Dyerthey understood... That's a no truth.... Hear my voice. Know what a new...

58:49Speaker 3You know what And they recognize the word of God.

58:51Jay DyerThat's a no truth.... Asia were

58:53Jonathan Shelleyexpected to receive the word of God. They would say no truth take away

58:56Jay Dyerfrom it.... Fallacy.

58:57Jonathan ShelleyYou never know true

58:59Jonathan Shelleyfalse.

58:59Speaker 3Because if I point

59:00Jonathan Shelleyto somebody that has my canon, you act like he's not legit.

59:03Jay DyerYou didn't... In the second verse legit? Is there... Is Jerome In the sec

59:07Jonathan ShelleyIs Jerome's Latin Vulgate legit? Is his view on the canon legit?

59:11Jay DyerDo you even know that Jerome submitted to the church of Rome and included the... Is Jerome legit? Did you hear what I said? It refuted.

59:17Jonathan ShelleyWon't answer the question. You... I asked you a question, but you just ask another question.

59:21Jay DyerJerome, I'm not... I'm answering your question.

59:23Jonathan ShelleyCan't you can't answer these questions because you know that you're wrong.

59:25Jay DyerJerome

59:26Jay Dyersubmitted to Rome and included the Douro canon. Meant you're an idiot. You don't even know that.

59:31Jonathan ShelleyI don't... Jerome is Catholic. I don't... I'm not a Catholic. You're not a Catholic.

59:34Jay DyerYou asked me about Jerome's canon, and I proved you wrong that he didn't even have your canon.

59:38Jonathan ShelleyI believe all the Christians could tell what the scripture was.

59:41Jay DyerYou can't tell me that any of scripture was

59:44Jonathan Shelleyin the in the second century.

59:46Jay DyerCan you Did they have to

59:47Jonathan Shelleythey know what the scripture

59:47Speaker 3was in the second Tell

59:48Jay Dyerme what a no true Scotsman fallacy is.

59:51Jonathan ShelleyObviously, it's just when you cherry pick people that have a different opinion than you and claim that that's not legit. You say, oh, well, they... It's like your seven hundred and fifty four AD iconoclasm

1:00:01Jonathan Shelleymeans

1:00:01Jay DyerWhat is a no true Scotsman fallacy?

1:00:03Speaker 3That a robber council. That wasn't rude.

1:00:05Jay DyerWhat is a no true Scott Council?... Hundred and eighty seven AD, that was a no I don't even think... Y'all

1:00:10Jonathan Shelleyjust cherry pick through history.

1:00:12Jay DyerI don't even think you know what it is.

1:00:14Jonathan ShelleyI just explained it to you.

1:00:16Jonathan ShelleySay, it's like, all the Scotsman all the Scotsman do this. And then you show an example of someone not doing it, they say, oh, he's not really a Scotsman.

1:00:23Speaker 3That's exactly what he did.... Know it.

1:00:24Jonathan ShelleyAnd that's what you're doing. That's what you did.

1:00:27Jay DyerWhen you said that only the true Christians are the ones that believe my canon, and you can't

1:00:31Jonathan Shelleygive an example.... Only the true Christians.

1:00:33Jay DyerYes. You did. All Orthodox,

1:00:35Jay Dyerall Protestant,

1:00:37Jonathan Shelleyall Catholic, the same 66 books as the scripture.

1:00:40Jay DyerThat's a fallacy. It doesn't matter that we all accept it if we have different arguments or bases for it.

1:00:45Jonathan ShelleyI never said that that that people that aren't saved couldn't pick out the right canon. I never said that.

1:00:50Jay DyerYou said that the true Christians believed in the 66 canon Yes.

1:00:54Jonathan ShelleyYes. You do. Believe that.

1:00:55Jay DyerSo name one of those people in the first, second, and third century.

1:01:00Jonathan ShelleyI... Did you... Paul, Timothy

1:01:02Jay DyerAfter the

1:01:03Speaker 3apostles because that's begging the question.

1:01:05Jonathan ShelleyAll of these people were

1:01:06Jay DyerAfter the apostles, that's begging the question.

1:01:09Jonathan ShelleyI... I'm not gonna point to some church fathers and

1:01:11Jay Dyerclaim You don't have one?

1:01:12Speaker 3He is not one. Because I don't care.

1:01:13Jonathan ShelleyThey're all grown, like, Catholic. What? That'll be like saying,

1:01:16Speaker 3natives popular are Catholic today that we have this doctrine. Why would

1:01:19Jonathan ShelleyI care about that?

1:01:20Jay DyerDo you have an example of one or not?

1:01:23Jonathan ShelleyI appointed to Saint Jerome.

1:01:25Jay DyerHe's not in the second and third century.

1:01:27Jonathan ShelleyHave that many examples of anybody giving a canon list in the first, second, and third century. There's not this, like, huge group of all these different people.

1:01:35Jay DyerBy the way, there's no, there's a

1:01:37Jonathan Shelleygigantic There's small

1:01:39Jonathan ShelleyNo, numbers

1:01:40Jay Dyerit's not. All of these red books up there, that's the pre

1:01:43Jay Dyer19 snowing with everybody.

1:01:44Jonathan ShelleyLook at all these

1:01:45Jay Dyerbooks. Do shut up. Books?

1:01:47Jay DyerIt's not books. This is all of the pre Nicene church fathers. It's about Just trust me, bro. It's not just trust me, bro. It's a famous set of church fathers, the first 10 volumes. What are you talking about just trust me, bro? You don't even know what this is?

1:01:59Jay DyerYou think that there's not a lot of, documentation?

1:02:01Jonathan ShelleyHow many how many church fathers have a canon list that we can look to in the second and and third century?

1:02:07Jonathan ShelleyGive me a number.

1:02:08Jay DyerThat that argues for me, you idiot. That's my... That helps my case, you dummy.

1:02:13Jonathan ShelleyNow how do they know what the scriptures were to pass down so that they could end up canonizing it?

1:02:17Jay DyerThey know by ecumenical councils getting together and No. No. No. But before the better of the meeting.

1:02:23Jonathan ShelleyBefore the ecumenical

1:02:24Jay Dyercouncil.

1:02:26Jay DyerThe fact that there are different

1:02:29Jay Dyercouncils

1:02:29Jay Dyerdebating and discussing this for centuries proves that they were not operating on sola scriptura and refute you.

1:02:36Jay DyerIn the second century, how did someone know it was the Bible?

1:02:40Jay DyerThey were not going on only the Bible. They couldn't read. They go to hear the liturgy. They couldn't read?

1:02:46Jay DyerYes. Most people in the Roman empire couldn't read, idiot.

1:02:49Jay DyerSo how do

1:02:50Jonathan Shelleythey know if things are passed down?

1:02:54Jay DyerDo you think that most people

1:02:55Jonathan Shelleyin the Roman empire were literate?

1:02:57Jonathan ShelleyI have no idea what the literacy rates in Rome were.

1:02:59Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)You're an idiot.

1:03:00Jonathan ShelleyI just think it's... I think it's ridiculous to claim that most people in these churches can't read.

1:03:04Jay DyerThis is a well known fact. You... Do you... It's well known, dude. It's well... Majority of post.

1:03:11Jay DyerIs idiot. Idiot. This is a fundamental You can

1:03:12Jonathan Shelleygive me a source on it. You make these assertions.

1:03:14Jay DyerYou make these crazy assertions.

1:03:16Jonathan ShelleyNot crazy. Read in the second century.

1:03:18Jay DyerIt's not a crazy assertion. It's common knowledge. I shouldn't have to Common knowledge. It is. Yeah. That the Roman... Most people in the Roman empire were illiterate. The literate class were the aristocrats, idiot.

1:03:27Jay DyerNow, again, tell me who in the second and third century before Nicaea has your Protestant candidate? Just name one.

1:03:35Jonathan ShelleyEvery Christian can recognize God's word. That is a nocturne. In second

1:03:39Jonathan Shelleycentury and in the third century,

1:03:42Jonathan Shelleythey could know what the scriptures were to pass down.

1:03:44Jay DyerDid they know what God's word?

1:03:45Jonathan ShelleyBecause they knew it was already God's word. Name a representative

1:03:48Jonathan Shelleyof them.

1:03:49Jay DyerName

1:03:49Jay Dyera theologian our church father.

1:03:52Jonathan ShelleyThis is just a rhetoric. You're just you're basically just trying you're just trying to create a straw man argument that doesn't even need to be this.

1:03:59Jay DyerThe claim. You said that I

1:04:00Jonathan Shelleydon't need a church father.

1:04:02Jonathan ShelleyHow did Timothy know what to pass down?

1:04:05Speaker 3How did any of these churches know

1:04:06Jonathan Shelleywhat to pass down? How is the church at Ephesus supposed to know that the book of Revelation is the word of God without a council?

1:04:13Jay DyerApostolic tradition.

1:04:15Jonathan ShelleyHow does someone in the Old Testament know what it was scripture?

1:04:19Jay DyerI already answered that question earlier when I talked about Levitical principles. An answer. You just... You said the church council. You literally appointed... You know why the church council about the Old Testament structure of how they understood and went to have the law exeged and how the Levites would make judgments and how prophets had to teach

1:04:35Jonathan Shelleyin a more reject the Hebrew canon?

1:04:38Jay DyerYou you On what basis? On what basis? The Hebrew canon? It's not the Hebrew canon. The rabbinic

1:04:43Jay Dyercanon. It's not the Hebrew canon. You're a heretic.

1:04:46Jonathan ShelleyI'm a heretic for rejecting the apocrypha?

1:04:48Jonathan ShelleySo do

1:04:49Jay Dyeryou believe that Nebuchadnezzar

1:04:50Jay Dyeris the

1:04:51Jonathan Shelleyking of Assyria?

1:04:51Jay DyerFollow the rabbinic Christ rejecting

1:04:53Jonathan ShelleyJews believe that Nebuchadnezzar was the king of Assyria and lived in Nineveh?

1:04:57Jay DyerThat's a general title. Jews would oftentimes call their kings

1:05:01Jay DyerAmalek,

1:05:02Jay Dyerpharaoh. All the way into the book of Revelation, they call their enemies by pharaoh or Amalek or anything like that. So you're fundamentally

1:05:09Jay Dyeran ignorant person, and I answered your question about the old I'm ignorant. I answered you multiple times

1:05:14Jonathan Shelleyabout if Nebuchadnezzar was the king of Assyria.

1:05:17Jay DyerDid you not hear the answer?

1:05:18Jonathan ShelleyHistorically

1:05:19Jonathan Shelleyinaccurate statement.

1:05:20Jay DyerHow did I answer your question? Restate what I said.

1:05:22Jonathan ShelleyDidn't answer it.

1:05:24Jay DyerI gave you an answer.

1:05:25Jonathan ShelleyYou just said, oh, sometimes they just use these other titles for people, but you didn't really

1:05:29Jay DyerI didn't say sometimes. I gave you examples in the book of Revelation. They talk about the city being Sodom and Gomorrah. Was it Sodom and Gomorrah? Picture?

1:05:38Jay DyerJews to this day still call their enemies Amalek.

1:05:41Jay DyerIt's a Jewish practice.

1:05:43Jay DyerYou say we reject the Hebrew canon. But saying Nebuchadnezzar was feeding the

1:05:48Jonathan Shelleyking of Israel.

1:05:48Jay DyerIt's not... It's the rabbinic canon. It's not

1:05:50Jonathan Shelleythe Jewish lived in Nineveh?

1:05:53Jay DyerThis is just a stupid person. They...

1:05:57Jay DyerThe New Testament says,

1:06:00Jay Dyereven in the book of Revelation,

1:06:01Jay Dyerthat the enemies of God's people are

1:06:05Jay DyerSodom, Gomorrah,

1:06:06Jay DyerEgypt, Babylon.

1:06:08Jay DyerThose empires are dead. And I'm telling you, even to this day, when calls

1:06:13Jay Dyerpeople Amalek,

1:06:14Jay Dyerhe's reflecting that tradition of always calling their enemies by the name of some king or emperor. It's a well known thing in the academic literature.

1:06:23Jay DyerSo, again, you're just expressing your own ignorance. But I already answered your question about the Old Testament to the law and to the testimony.

1:06:29Jay DyerThe law is the Torah. The testimony is the interpretation of the Torah. Why is Matthew supposed to be in the gospel?

1:06:38Jonathan ShelleyIt has the divine voice. It's internal

1:06:39Jay DyerHow you know that has the divine voice? How do you know that?

1:06:42Jonathan ShelleyIn the same way that I can tell the difference between, you know, my wife's voice and another woman's. Obviously, my sheep hear my voice

1:06:48Jay DyerThat's a purely subjective argument. How does he know? Can you tell the difference between eighties music and a hymn?

1:06:54Jay DyerWhat's the subjective

1:06:55Jay Dyerpublic

1:06:56Speaker 3eighties music and rap music?

1:06:58Jay DyerThe subject... What is the objective public argument to know the difference?

1:07:02Jonathan ShelleyIt's internally consistent. It's historically received by Christians.

1:07:04Jay DyerThe question. Internally consistent with what? That's what's that's what's in question.

1:07:08Jonathan ShelleyYou're you're taking all these arguments, and you won't apply them to your church. I'm actually giving you legitimate That's

1:07:13Jay Dyera two quote quote. Why are we supposed to accept that Matthew is included in the text? You said because it has a divine voice. The thing How in

1:07:20Jay Dyerdo we know that it has a divine voice? That's what's in question.

1:07:23Jonathan ShelleyHow do you know it's

1:07:24Jay Dyera it's a tu quoque Because it's field of your your your

1:07:27Jay Dyercounsel. Why are you doing a tu quoque?

1:07:30Jonathan ShelleyI answered your question. You didn't expect it answer.

1:07:32Jay DyerWhat was your answer?

1:07:32Jonathan ShelleyThen I asked you, well, you believe it, and you won't answer. I said it has the divine voice. It's internally consistent with the rest of scripture. Been received by I didn't Christians know the

1:07:41Jay Dyerdivine

1:07:42Jay Dyerwhen what's in question

1:07:44Jonathan ShelleyBecause I can tell the difference between God's

1:07:46Jay Dyerword You are the man's word. So you. So ultimately,

1:07:49Jay Dyerthat So you are the authority ultimately.

1:07:51Jay DyerSo you ultimately are the authority.

1:07:53Jonathan ShelleyHow do

1:07:53Jay Dyerknow your church is right? So it's a purely subjective argument. I'm talking about the tradition that Matthew wrote Matthew. Do you think that matters? Apostolic authorship?

1:08:02Jonathan ShelleyIf it didn't say Matthew at the top, it it wouldn't change anything for me.

1:08:07Jonathan ShelleyDude,

1:08:08Jonathan Shelleywhy does it matter? How do you know that

1:08:09Jay DyerMatthew make any difference in your life that

1:08:11Jonathan Shelleyyou know that that's Matthew and not just Are you list...

1:08:13Jay DyerDoes apostolic does apostolic authorship matter?

1:08:19Jonathan ShelleyObviously, we believe the apostles were ordained by God, and they were

1:08:22Jay DyerDoes apostolic authorship of Matthew matter, dude?

1:08:25Jonathan ShelleyThe book of Hebrews has no clear Those apostolic authorship. Identified. And in the case of

1:08:30Jay Dyerthe gospels of Matthew, does it matter?

1:08:33Jonathan ShelleyI do think that the apostles are the ones that saw the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ. That's what makes them apostle. And so I'm

1:08:39Jay Dyertalking about the gospel

1:08:40Jonathan Shelleyof Matthew. By eyewitnesses. Dude, stop what Luke says.

1:08:42Jay DyerStop deflecting. In the the case of the gospel of Matthew, does apostolic authorship matter? It's a point of evidence. Yes. Okay. How do you know that Matthew the apostle wrote it?

1:08:54Jonathan ShelleyObviously, Christians receive this gospel from someone that told them that.

1:08:58Jay DyerHow do you know that? How do you know?

1:09:00Jonathan ShelleyBecause it was passed down.

1:09:02Jonathan ShelleyThrough who? Through tradition.

1:09:04Jay DyerOh, thank you. You just ended the debate right there.

1:09:07Jonathan ShelleySo I never said the

1:09:08Jay Dyertradition that you rely on.

1:09:09Speaker 3Never said that tradition's wrong.

1:09:10Jay DyerThe very thing that you rely on is what we have and what I argued for.

1:09:14Jonathan ShelleyOkay. I've never said that traditions are wrong. Obviously, I didn't write this King James Bible that I hold in my hand. Is the is the down to me. Is the question?

1:09:21Jonathan ShelleyHow do I know that my traditions are right? Because they're internally consistent with the scripture. How do you know

1:09:26Jay DyerDude, that's the question you're right. Scriptures are the thing in question. To appeal to the scriptures is begging the question.

1:09:34Jay DyerIs the scripture divine?

1:09:36Jay DyerOf course. That has nothing to do with my paradigm. In your opening statement,

1:09:39Jonathan Shelleyyou said it's not divine.

1:09:40Jay DyerI didn't make the argument.

1:09:41Speaker 3Did you

1:09:41Jonathan Shelleysay the idea that scripture is infallible?

1:09:43Jay DyerYou're equivocating again. I said there's a difference,

1:09:45Jonathan Shelleybut I'll show you the clip where you say

1:09:46Speaker 3it's not

1:09:47Jay Dyerdivine. I said there's a difference between the written text as word and the second person of godhead as word. That's all I said. You keep equivocating.

1:09:53Jonathan ShelleyScriptures are divine.

1:09:55Jay DyerThey're divinely inspired.

1:09:57Jonathan ShelleyDo you believe they're infallible?

1:09:59Jay DyerYes.

1:10:00Jonathan ShelleyOkay. So if anything is contradictory

1:10:03Jonathan Shelleyto them,

1:10:05Jonathan Shelleyis is it also

1:10:06Jonathan Shelleyinfallible?

1:10:08Jay DyerObviously, if it contradicts it, no. It's not infallible.

1:10:11Jonathan ShelleyOkay. So if your tradition of your church is in contrast to something in this book, would it be fall... Would it be right?

1:10:19Jay DyerIt would be wrong, but it's also impossible.

1:10:21Jonathan ShelleyThe scripture says

1:10:22Speaker 3the bishop must be the

1:10:23Jonathan Shelleyhusband of one wife, and your church teaches that bishops are supposed to be unmarried, how am I supposed to know that you're right?

1:10:30Jay DyerRight. Well, episcopacy

1:10:32Jay Dyercan refer to the twofold office. It can be a presbyter or it can be a bishop, and there is an episcopacy because in Acts one, we read about episcopacy that

1:10:41Jay DyerJudas had his office or episcopacy replaced.

1:10:44Jay DyerAnd when we look at the the council of Nicaea, it talks about the episcopacy and bishops. So do you... Where's your episcopacy?

1:10:52Jay DyerWell, in Acts chapter one,

1:10:54Jonathan Shelleythey appealed to. They replaced an apostle. They did not replace

1:10:57Jay DyerWhat's what's a Greek a bishop?

1:10:58Jonathan ShelleyA bishop is different here.

1:11:00Jay DyerWhat is the Greek

1:11:01Speaker 3was apostle.

1:11:03Jonathan ShelleyHe was not a bishop. In Acts one,

1:11:05Jay Dyerwhat's the Greek word?

1:11:07Jonathan ShelleyLike, for presbytery?

1:11:09Jonathan ShelleyIt's just one.

1:11:12Jonathan ShelleyDoes it matter?

1:11:13Jonathan ShelleyBecause the word is episcopos in Greek.

1:11:16Jonathan ShelleyThey're obviously appointing

1:11:18Jonathan Shelleysomeone in the position

1:11:18Jay DyerWhat does episcopos

1:11:19Jonathan Shelleymean? Of an apostle because he had to be with them from the very beginning.

1:11:23Jay DyerEven a successor to an

1:11:24Jonathan Shelleyapostle?

1:11:26Jonathan ShelleyThey they thought it was good to replace him, but it doesn't even really matter because that guy

1:11:29Jay Dyerdidn't need do

1:11:31Jay Dyerthey had apostolic succession?

1:11:33Jonathan ShelleyWho's they?

1:11:35Jonathan ShelleyIn Acts one.

1:11:37Jonathan ShelleyThey they are the apostles. What do

1:11:38Speaker 3you mean there's no succession?

1:11:39Jonathan ShelleyThey are the apostles. Peter is the apostle.

1:11:41Jay DyerDude, are you this stupid? In Acts one, they replace Judas

1:11:46Jay Dyerin his episcopacy.

1:11:48Jay DyerWhy is there a seat replacement,

1:11:50Jay Dyera successor?

1:11:52Jonathan ShelleyThey're replacing him, but, again, does that matter if if he

1:11:55Jay Dyeris Is there a successor to the apostle?

1:11:57Jonathan ShelleyOkay. Is the apostle...

1:11:59Jay DyerIs there a successor to the apostle?

1:12:00Jonathan ShelleyOr is he just an additional apostle?

1:12:02Jay DyerIn acts one, why are you deflecting the poll? In acts one, is there a successor...... Only 12 apostles? Is there a successor?...

1:12:08Jonathan ShelleyPerfect succession of 12 apostles. No apostles alive today.

1:12:12Jay DyerAgain, is there a successor in acts one to Judas in his office of episcopacy or not?

1:12:17Jonathan ShelleyIn his office of of being an apostle.

1:12:19Jay DyerEpiscopos.

1:12:20Jay DyerIs there a successor to the episcopos in acts one?

1:12:22Jonathan ShelleyIn the 12, they made a... Why can't you just answer? Why are you so dishonest?

1:12:26Jonathan ShelleyI don't I don't use the word episcopacy here.

1:12:29Jay DyerIt's in the Greek?

1:12:30Jonathan ShelleyNot in the English.

1:12:32Jonathan ShelleyIt's the Greek word, you idiot.

1:12:35Jonathan ShelleyDoes it... What is this person?...

1:12:36Jay DyerToo stupid. This is so stupid.

1:12:39Jonathan ShelleySo, again, do we

1:12:40Jay Dyerhave He doesn't even... He he says he he doesn't care about the Greek word. He believes episcopos. I

1:12:44Jonathan ShelleyI didn't say I didn't care about the Greek.

1:12:45Jay DyerYou just did. You said, I don't you said, I don't care what the Greek is. I I read the English. You're an idiot.

1:12:51Jay DyerI I don't care to

1:12:52Jonathan Shelleygo back to the Greek to try for

1:12:53Jay Dyeran audience to explain them what the English word

1:12:56Jonathan Shelleyis here.

1:12:56Jay DyerIs there a successor to the episcopos in acts one

1:12:59Jonathan Shelleyto the apostle? They obviously appointed Matthias in the position of Judas. Nobody disagrees with that.

1:13:03Jay DyerTo what? Is there a successor?

1:13:05Jonathan ShelleyTo be one of the 12.

1:13:06Jay DyerIs there a sick... So you won't say successor because you know that means absolute succession.

1:13:11Jay DyerYou're a liar.

1:13:11Speaker 3How how can he

1:13:13Jay Dyersucceed Judas?

1:13:14Jonathan ShelleyJudas isn't even saved. Judas is like a goddam saved devil heretic.

1:13:18Jay DyerIs there a

1:13:18Speaker 3supposed to succeed?

1:13:19Jonathan ShelleyHave to do? He's just taking his place. It says give his office to another in the Old Testament.

1:13:24Jay DyerJames, his office is episcopacy, you idiot. That's a successor to the apostles.

1:13:28Jonathan ShelleyOkay. He gave his office to him. Alright. Why does that matter?

1:13:30Jay DyerJames, can we move on?

1:13:33Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)This is close to when we normally go into the q and a, as the open dialogue is usually about an hour. If you guys have any final threads you'd like to draw together from the debate, this would be the time. Otherwise, we will move into the q and a.

1:13:51Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)Any

1:13:52Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)last thoughts?

1:13:53Jay DyerWhat about a a a... How about a brief, closing statements, him and me?

1:13:57Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)Yeah. Let's do it. How about three minutes each?

1:14:01Jay DyerYou can go ahead.

1:14:04Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)Pastor Jonathan, if you'd like to go first.

1:14:08Jonathan ShelleyReally make much ground on this particular discussion,

1:14:11Jonathan Shelleyand Jay doesn't wanna hold his,

1:14:13Jonathan Shelleylogic to his own church.

1:14:15Jonathan ShelleyObviously, he just wants to constantly try to claim that we can't know what the scripture is without his, quote, church, but then he never explains where his actual church comes from. There's nothing in the Bible that teaches us infallible.

1:14:26Jonathan ShelleyHistorically speaking, the Orthodox Church has many different errors, many different problems, and they've elevated their tradition above scripture and above Christ. The authority in the Orthodox church is not Christ. It is their opinion.

1:14:39Jonathan ShelleyThey simply elevate icons.

1:14:41Jonathan ShelleyThey they elevate,

1:14:43Jonathan Shelleytheir understanding of bishops. And, of course, they believe in theosis.

1:14:46Jonathan ShelleyTheir apocrypha teaches that almsgiving

1:14:49Jonathan Shelleypurges away every sin, whereas the Bible teaches that it's through faith in Jesus Christ's blood that gives us the forgiveness of sins. And it's only through the gospel that we can be saved. The Bible teaches that once you're saved, the Holy Spirit dwells inside of you. And Jesus Christ said, my sheep hear my voice, and they will not follow a stranger. That's why we don't follow the apocrypha, because it's a strange voice.

1:15:11Jonathan ShelleyIt has historical inaccuracies. It teaches false doctrine. And, of course, their church also teaches false doctrine. They have ecumenical councils where they say that icons are blasphemous and idolatrous

1:15:22Jonathan Shelleyin seven hundred and fifty four AD. And then magically, in seven eighty seven AD, they claim, no. That was a robber council. It didn't really count. Trust me, bro. Which is really the orthodox position

1:15:32Jonathan Shelleyin a nutshell. Trust me, bro. He creates a position in which the first Christians

1:15:38Jonathan Shelleyat the church at Ephesus could not understand what the scripture is. We have so many examples of churches in the New Testament having so many problems, constantly needing to be corrected by scripture.

1:15:47Jonathan ShelleyJay's church won't be corrected by scripture, so it's gone off the rails, and there's no hope unless they actually appeal back to scripture to allow themselves to be corrected.

1:15:55Jonathan ShelleyIt's interesting that

1:15:56Jonathan Shelleyin this particular debate, Jay wouldn't answer my questions.

1:15:59Jonathan ShelleyHe just simply tries to use philosophy

1:16:02Jonathan Shelleyand trying to claim fallacies

1:16:04Jonathan Shelleyin order to avoid actually defending his position. He just simply wants to claim that my position's wrong, therefore, must be right. He doesn't actually defend his position whatsoever.

1:16:14Jonathan ShelleyHis church is

1:16:16Jonathan Shelleyclaimed to be infallible. He has no verse to teach such a thing. And he's just like the pharisees today where they rejected the word of God so that they can keep their tradition.

1:16:27Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)We'll kick it over to Jay for his three minute closing as well, and then we're jumping into your questions, folks, from the q and a.

1:16:34Jay DyerYeah. This person was the dumbest person I've ever debated. There's a new person, beyond t dump or the or anyone else. I've never debated anyone this stubborn and stupid and foolish and ignorant.

1:16:45Jay DyerI answered every one of his objections explicitly with absolute nuance. He actually thinks that saying philosophy and fallacies don't matter in a debate, which again shows that he's a fundamentally stupid person. This is what you get with independent fundamentalist bible bible churches and people that promote cult leaders like Stephen Anderson, absolute lunatics and psychotics,

1:17:04Jay Dyeris you get this kind of ignorance that is so

1:17:08Jay Dyerhard pressed and so

1:17:11Jay Dyerclosed minded to actually listen to the arguments that are being made to say that it doesn't matter about the church fathers in the first, second, or third century when it comes to the canon. I don't care. But there were true Christians there that had my Protestant canon. Even though I don't know of any, and I can't name any, they were just there, trust me, bro. So he's actually the one doing the trust me, bro, when I answer specifically with absolute nuance every single one of his questions. We saw in the first half of the debate,

1:17:36Jay DyerI give you multiple examples

1:17:38Jay Dyerof the word of God not being just written text. And it took multiple times of him actually admitting that and then backtracking and falling back on his fallacy of equivalence.

1:17:47Jay DyerSo all this debate was was his own personal subjective

1:17:51Jay Dyerargumentation and assumption that the divine voice that he feels

1:17:55Jay Dyeris telling him that the Protestant canon is the correct canon. When in the first, second, and third century, when he liked to appeal to pre Nicaea, there's no one that has his canon. And, again, when Trent Horn debated James White, Trent got James White to admit that nobody in the first several centuries is operating on sola scriptura. That means that in those centuries, sola scriptura wasn't true because most churches didn't have the full complete canon. Thus, it was impossible for them to actually operate on the principle of sola scriptura. Guess what? We have thousands of pages of the writings of the church fathers, which he laughed at and mocked,

1:18:29Jay Dyernot knowing anything about it in his own stupid ignorance. When in reality, when we go read them, they give us an absolutely amazing picture of the worship, of the liturgy, of the imagery, of the Eucharist

1:18:39Jay Dyerall going on in the earliest centuries of the church, second and third century. So just like all the other, Judaized Protestant heretics, he thinks that the rabbinic canon of the post apostolic Christ rejecting Jews

1:18:53Jay Dyeris the right canon. He doesn't even know that Irenaeus and Justin Martyr talked about the rabbinic Jews who formed the proto Masoretic text, which is the rabbinic tradition,

1:19:03Jay Dyeraltered and changed their text against

1:19:05Jay Dyerthe Septuagint tradition, which was so replete with references to Christ. He also doesn't know that every Protestant scholar who has any significant academic credentials or degree, whether it's FF Bruce or whether it's Lee McDonald or anybody, they will admit that the deuterocanon includes...

1:19:22Jay DyerThe

1:19:23Jay DyerSeptuagint includes the deuterocanonical texts, and the New Testament cites them dozens of times throughout its passages. I argued very clearly that oral tradition is in the Old Testament and the New Testament. I gave at least a dozen examples.

1:19:37Jay DyerHe didn't even

1:19:39Jay Dyeraddress any of those. He acted like I made no scriptural arguments and never went to scripture, which is an absolute lie. This man is an absolute joke.

1:19:47Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)We are going to go to the q and a. Wanna remind folks, please don't copy and paste in the live chat.

1:19:53Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)Also,

1:19:54Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)as you can see at the bottom right of your screen, debate con eight is happening this summer, and one of our sponsors is Maine First Project in addition to ROAR.

1:20:02Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)If you would like to become a sponsor for debate con eight, email me at moderndaydebate@gmail.com.

1:20:09Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)Otherwise,

1:20:10Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)you can click on the tickets link for debate con eight. It also shows sponsorship

1:20:14Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)sponsorship options for your organization to help get the word out. We're gonna jump into these questions, and we're gonna move fast. So thank you very much for your questions, folks. Are you guys okay with rebuttals, or would you prefer to minimize rebuttals? I would suggest because we do have a ton of questions that we wanna get through all these before you guys have to leave. If we can minimize rebuttals, that would be the best way to go.

1:20:36Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)It's fine. You got it. This one from... Do appreciate your question. Holy smokes. We do have a lot. John Ruck says Jesus Jesus

1:20:43Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)is God. Thanks, Jay, for winning the debate.

1:20:47Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)Jerome Alain says, so the Baptists historically only go back

1:20:51Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)by a guy named John Smith in the sixteen hundreds. So was their church doctrines

1:20:57Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)before that?

1:21:01Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)I don't know what that means.

1:21:03Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)I don't know

1:21:04Jay Dyerwho that means. They're just they're just saying

1:21:05Jonathan Shelleythat my church history doesn't go all the way back.

1:21:08Jonathan ShelleyYou know, again, I I do... I'm not gonna deny that John Smith is accredited as being the first, quote, Baptist.

1:21:14Jonathan ShelleyYou know, this is the label that was given to him. I'm not gonna deny that the Protestant Reformation

1:21:19Jonathan Shelleyisn't,

1:21:20Jonathan Shelleytrying to

1:21:21Jonathan Shelleydo things new in in opposition to

1:21:25Jonathan Shelleythe

1:21:26Jonathan ShelleyCatholic church. The Catholic church got off the rails,

1:21:29Jonathan Shelleyand the Protestant Reformation was an attempt to go back to the scripture and compare their traditions with the scripture, and that's why you have a

1:21:39Jonathan Shelleyplethora of different things that happen. It's not like just Baptist came out or just one group. Obviously, there was multiple different groups that come out. My view is that there was a corruption in the Catholic church

1:21:50Jay Dyerforward to the next corrected by scripture.

1:21:52Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)This one from... I hate to do that, but just because we have so many. So we're gonna go rapid speed. Lehman Ross says, j my rock rocker brother,

1:22:00Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)be gentle.

1:22:01Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)This one from Jerome says,

1:22:03Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)the k j v sixteen eleven bible has the deuterocanon.

1:22:09Jonathan ShelleyThat's true. It's mid... It's in the middle. It has apocrypha on every single page. It doesn't actually give you like a description like all the rest of the text. It's not mixed in.

1:22:18Jonathan ShelleyThe... So it was clearly set aside,

1:22:21Jonathan Shelleyand so it it definitely was included for historical purposes, but not as canon.

1:22:26Jay DyerAre you a monarchist?

1:22:28Jay DyerNo. Okay. Why am I supposed to care what King James and his scholars

1:22:32Jonathan Shelleydid?

1:22:34Jonathan ShelleyYou don't have to if you don't want to. I just like the product.

1:22:37Jay DyerWhy, in your view, ought we accept your King James

1:22:40Jonathan Shelleyversion?

1:22:42Jonathan ShelleyI mean, the the King James Bible is 85% the work of William Tyndale,

1:22:46Jonathan Shelleyand the King James Bible is a revision of the bishop's bible. So it's not just King James.

1:22:49Jay DyerOkay. Why are we supposed to accept that? Why?

1:22:52Jonathan ShelleyThey... Again, we understand that the Bible should be in vernacular languages or vulgar languages, not

1:22:57Jay Dyerjust There was a there was a Catholic translation before that into English. So why are we supposed to accept that?

1:23:02Jonathan ShelleyThey believed that the Latin had been corrupted.

1:23:05Jay DyerThey believed. I'm asking you. What's the argument that that's binding on Christians?

1:23:09Jonathan ShelleyThe original Hebrew doesn't This

1:23:12Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)one from Thomas Hayward says, same level of argument as pastor p. Oh, well. Who's pastor p?

1:23:17Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)Slade.

1:23:18Jay DyerSomebody I debated somewhat while back.

1:23:21Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)66 book King James Bible. Hey, man.

1:23:25Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)This one from mister Jack says, quote, Christ is not here physically, unquote. Literally, church dude, the bride of one flesh with the Lord, the bible is not the logos and only has authority by being a part of his church's

1:23:40Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)holy tradition.

1:23:44Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)Any thoughts, Jonathan?

1:23:46Jonathan ShelleyI I mean, I think that we both believe that Jesus Christ is the word, so I I don't think we agree with that comment.

1:23:52Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)Tony the Baptist says, pastor Shelley is pointing to scripture as his source of authority, where the orthodox is pointing to his church fathers as his source of authority and yet accusing pastor Shelley of circular reasoning. All the irony.

1:24:06Jay DyerNo. I asked him for a basis for why the Protestant canon ought to be the case, and he admitted throughout the debate that he also relies on tradition for apostolic authorship.

1:24:15Jay DyerAnd I asked the question about normative authority, why we ought to accept that in some binding sense, and he has no answer for any of that.

1:24:23Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)Got it. And putting up

1:24:24Jay Dyerthe poll scripture.

1:24:26Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)Putting up a poll in just a second, so hang tight, folks. This one coming in from Tony the Baptist says...

1:24:31Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)Oh, no. We got that. Ammeleon

1:24:33Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)Ascentyk

1:24:34Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)says, question, pastor, can you read second Timothy

1:24:38Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)four twelve through 13?

1:24:40Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)Parentheses,

1:24:42Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)what books Paul he's talking about,

1:24:44Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)and could this be oral tradition he was writing?

1:24:49Jonathan ShelleyWell, you're talking about preach the word. I'm just turning there, but he said two through four. Preach the word, be instant in season, out of season, reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long

1:24:57Jay Dyersuffering Four,

1:24:59Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)twelve through 13.

1:25:00Jonathan ShelleyOh, 12. I'm sorry. And have

1:25:02Jonathan ShelleyI sent to Ephesus, the cloak that I left at Troas with carpus.

1:25:06Jonathan ShelleyI I don't understand the the point of it. I think it meant two through four, but I could be wrong.

1:25:11Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)Maybe.

1:25:12Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)But it does say second Timothy four twelve through 13.

1:25:16Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)Mister Jack says the Bible is eternal in all caps. Bro, really? Moses eternal? Mary, literally Muslim level, eternal creation stupidity.

1:25:26Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)Only God is eternal.

1:25:28Jay DyerYeah. Exactly.

1:25:31Jonathan ShelleyForever thy word is settled in heaven, o lord.

1:25:33Jay DyerYeah. Is that the bible? Yes. So the bible is eternal in heaven. This is a Muslim parable. Yes.

1:25:39Jay DyerWhere are the words of God in heaven?

1:25:44Speaker 3They exist in

1:25:45Jonathan Shelleythe second person of of of Christ.

1:25:47Jay DyerThey exist in him, so there's multiple eternals?

1:25:51Jay DyerChrist is

1:25:51Jonathan Shelleythe word, so he's always existed.

1:25:53Jay DyerOkay. But he said the two.

1:25:54Jonathan ShelleyI don't believe you can separate the two.

1:25:56Jay DyerOkay. So where's the propositions in, the book of Hebrews in eternity?

1:26:01Jonathan ShelleyYou don't even book... Heaven is something that was created. You just said Heaven is something that's created. So No. I said in eternity. You you

1:26:06Jay Dyersaid in eternity. What's heaven gonna have to do with them? I'm talking about eternity.

1:26:09Jonathan ShelleyYou literally said where are the word of God in in heaven.

1:26:12Jay DyerYou said that in eternity.

1:26:15Jonathan ShelleyYes. It's always existed. Christ is the word, and it's always existed.

1:26:18Jay DyerHebrews is from all eternity in existed.

1:26:21Jonathan ShelleyWhere?

1:26:22Jonathan ShelleyIt... In the second person.

1:26:24Jay DyerChrist Jesus. Of the Hebrews is not something that was written down by the words.

1:26:30Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)This one again.

1:26:31Jay DyerSo the words,

1:26:32Jay Dyerof Paul are in, in Christ in all eternity?

1:26:35Jonathan ShelleyThe word existed before anything was ever

1:26:38Jay DyerThe words of Paul when he when he, starts the book

1:26:41Jonathan Shelleyof Romans? Knows Christ knows the end from

1:26:42Jay Dyerthe beginning. If he knew it. You said the words themselves. Yes.

1:26:46Jay DyerThe words themselves. Okay. The... Thank you. This is this is so stupid.

1:26:51Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)This one from Rachel Wilson says, does pastor Jonathan think Christ existed before the incarnation? Does he know where Christ was in the Old Testament?

1:27:00Jonathan ShelleyYes. Christ existed before the incarnation. He has pre... Pre incarnate

1:27:04Jonathan Shelleyappearances.

1:27:05Jonathan ShelleyThe Bible says in the beginning was the word. He's with God. It... It's very clear. He's... He has no origin.

1:27:10Jay DyerIs that the Bible in gen... Is that the Bible in Genesis one?

1:27:14Jonathan ShelleyI don't believe you can separate Christ from the word.

1:27:16Jay DyerYou already admitted in in John one that the word became flesh. That's not talking about the Bible. Did the bible become flesh?

1:27:22Jonathan ShelleyI said it wasn't like the the scriptures,

1:27:25Jonathan Shelleylike the physical paper in your hand.

1:27:27Speaker 3That's the bible.

1:27:28Jonathan ShelleyChrist is the word of God. Yes.

1:27:30Jay DyerChrist is not the book.

1:27:33Jay DyerYou think Jesus is a book?

1:27:35Jonathan ShelleyNo. He's not a physical book. He's a person.

1:27:37Jay DyerThat's... Then the Bible is not eternal.

1:27:39Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)Listen,

1:27:40Jonathan Shelleyfrom The physical book is is setting the bible. It's the manifestation.

1:27:44Jonathan ShelleyJust like his physical body isn't eternal. His physical body wizards

1:27:48Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)The question was for Jonathan.

1:27:50Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)Jonathan, give you the last word on this because the question is for you.

1:27:54Jonathan ShelleyJesus Christ was incarnated. His physical body came into existence in Mary's womb when he was conceived. The Bible was obviously a manifestation of God's word that already existed from eternity past.

1:28:05Jay DyerWhere in the eternity was the bible?

1:28:06Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)Hate to do it, but I gotta I gotta have give somebody the last one. Master by grace says, question for Jay. Did you say in your opening quote that the scriptures are not divine,

1:28:14Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)I e, in their nature, quote, they are not the voice of God?

1:28:19Jay DyerNo. I said they're not the divine person of the sun.

1:28:22Jay DyerI said that they are inspired. They are inerrant.

1:28:25Jay DyerThey are Theotnustos.

1:28:26Jay DyerThey're God breathed.

1:28:28Jay DyerThey are not the second person of the Godhead. So this person is fundamentally stupid and can't see the difference between the second person

1:28:36Jay Dyerand the book that describes him.

1:28:39Jonathan ShelleyThere was a quote that Jay said. He said, the Bible is a created medium. It is not divine. That was a direct quote in his opening statement.

1:28:44Jay DyerIt not divine in itself in the sense of being uncreated.

1:28:48Jay DyerYou believe the Bible's uncreated. You're a Muslim polytheist.

1:28:53Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)This one from... Do appreciate it. J b Peltier says, Prots act like Jesus ascended and threw the book down on his way up. Correct.

1:29:03Speaker 3Again,

1:29:04Speaker 3all

1:29:04Jonathan ShelleyI get is all I get is these ad hominem attacks. You're a Muslim. You believe these bizarre You believe

1:29:09Jay Dyerthese Muslims ever claimed. Wait.

1:29:11Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)You're stupid. You

1:29:12Jay Dyerdon't have no real argument. You just have to say, you believe the bible's eternal. That's foolish. Stupid, bro.

1:29:17Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)Says,

1:29:19Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)pastor,

1:29:20Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)how do you know that Matthew wrote Matthew or Mark wrote Mark or Luke wrote Luke?

1:29:24Jay DyerHe doesn't. That's tradition.

1:29:26Jonathan ShelleyI accepted that that's tradition.

1:29:28Jay DyerOh, tradition. Okay.

1:29:30Jay DyerExactly.

1:29:31Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)You got it. Oh, wow.

1:29:34Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)We just have this new thing in live chat where you can send GIFs. We just enabled it. Thank you for the GIF Christian Roach. This is new. I've never... It's got the graphic and everything. Beautiful. This one from

1:29:44Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)Mason Marcus. Typical w for the king of

1:29:48Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)Wigesantium.

1:29:50Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)What the... This one from Kevin Blackwell says, pastor John,

1:29:54Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)Jesus says he is one with the church. Where does he say he is one with the Bible? Where does the Bible say Jesus left the Bible?

1:30:04Jonathan ShelleyI

1:30:05Jonathan Shelleydon't understand the left the Bible comment, but again, I... I'm just gonna be repeating myself because because the Bible teaches that Jesus Christ is the word made flesh. He dwelt among us. We beheld his glory. The Bible says in first John chapter number one,

1:30:21Jonathan Shelleyit says,

1:30:22Jonathan Shelleythat which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which you have seen with our eyes, which you have looked upon, and our hands have handled of the word of life. The Bible says that Jesus Christ, on written on his thigh when he returns, has the name written on his thigh, the word of God.

1:30:34Jay DyerYou're equivocating again because this is a created book.

1:30:38Jay DyerAnd, obviously, when we say the Bible, that means a canon or rule or a list of books. Obviously, it's talking about a book.

1:30:46Jay DyerYou believe that there's an eternal Quran like the Muslims,

1:30:50Jay Dyerwhich is your KGV, which is idiotic and foolish.

1:30:53Jay DyerYou already admitted multiple multiple times in debate. There's a distinction between the word made flesh and the book. The bible

1:30:58Jonathan Shelleyis Sometimes the verse is describing a difference, but I'm not saying there is a difference.

1:31:03Jay DyerSo you actually believe that this is Jesus incarnate?

1:31:05Jonathan ShelleyNo. Not the physical copy.

1:31:07Jay DyerThen you admit that it's a difference,

1:31:08Jonathan Shelleyyou idiot.

1:31:09Jonathan ShelleyIt's the words inside.

1:31:12Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)This one from, do appreciate your question, j b Peltier strikes again, says human language, paper, and bindings are creatures. The world is a person who mystically informs human people to write text and interpret it.

1:31:28Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)Big Big Drew says, all I'm hearing here is a bunch of rigamarole

1:31:33Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)that came from captain Tazaria,

1:31:35Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)who the other night referred to j as JD Dyer.

1:31:38Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)Jerome Alain says,

1:31:52Jay Dyerbecause it's also rabbinic, it's thus a Talmudic and Islamic position.

1:31:56Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)Don't you take that, Jonathan.

1:31:59Jonathan ShelleyThe word of God is

1:32:01Jonathan Shelleyeternal. It's just what the scripture says. Are you incapable of wants to twist the definitions of these words and

1:32:08Jay Dyermean something about because you think that it is in them that you have eternal life when it is they that bear witness of me. That's a distinction between the

1:32:14Jonathan Shelleywritten It's text ironic you keep quoting that verse.

1:32:17Jay DyerBecause it refutes your idiocy. And you No. Because you

1:32:20Jonathan Shelleydon't have salvation because believe in theosis.

1:32:21Jay DyerThere we go. So that's, that's all he has.

1:32:24Jay DyerHe's so... He's great. He's about to rage quit.

1:32:27Jonathan ShelleyI've

1:32:28Jonathan Shelleynever been close to quit.

1:32:29Jay DyerMy... I don't have salvation, so what does that have to do with that passage?

1:32:33Jonathan ShelleyThat's what Jesus Christ is telling to the pharisees. He said, you should Does the passage make a distinction actually recognize the scriptures?

1:32:40Jonathan ShelleyJust like you said, you don't recognize Christ. You separate

1:32:43Jay DyerDoes it make a distinction between the scriptures and the word?

1:32:46Jonathan ShelleyThe scripture teaches that the word of God is Christ. The word of life that passage make a between

1:32:54Jay Dyerthe scriptures the person of the word?

1:32:55Jonathan ShelleyJesus Christ is appealing to literal parchment that has the words written down on them, and he wants them he wants them to the Bible is, you idiot.

1:33:02Jonathan ShelleySo obviously, there's... He's not saying, look at my body and and figure it out. He's saying, look at the parchment. But the thing is, is he

1:33:08Jay Dyeris the word God.

1:33:10Jonathan ShelleyHe transcends that.

1:33:12Jay DyerHe is the... Sorry. Can't understand the scriptures. No. You... It's... Can't understand that. You can't... You... I have a Muslim polytheistic position.

1:33:19Jonathan ShelleyHow did they handle the word of life in John one?

1:33:22Jonathan ShelleyIn first John one, how did

1:33:23Jay Dyerthey handle the He's incarnate. They touched his body. That's the word of life flesh.

1:33:28Jonathan ShelleySo he's the word of life. Amen. Jesus Christ. The word

1:33:30Jay Dyerof life. This is the incarnate word of God.

1:33:33Jay DyerYou're an idolater.

1:33:35Jay DyerNo.

1:33:35Speaker 3I did... They weren't touching

1:33:36Jay Dyerthe body of the world.

1:33:37Jonathan ShelleyTouching a person that is this is why the word of life was manifested. The word was manifested.

1:33:42Jonathan ShelleyIn flesh, not in a book.

1:33:44Jonathan ShelleyAmen.

1:33:45Jonathan ShelleyHe was a he was a person.

1:33:46Jay DyerThat's my argument. But, again, you just don't believe the word of God is made

1:33:49Jonathan Shelleyin this than a person.

1:33:51Jay DyerIn flesh. There's Not in a book. You're a Jew. You are a I'm a Jew. Quran Muslim. So the Jews believe that

1:33:58Jonathan ShelleyJesus Christ was the word?

1:34:00Jonathan ShelleyYou have the Jewish...

1:34:01Jay DyerThe Jews believe that Jesus Christ was the word?...

1:34:04Jonathan ShelleyThe text. You're just making stuff up. You just make these wild accusations that...

1:34:07Jay DyerYou have the Jewish position of the...

1:34:09Jonathan ShelleyHow am I a Jew for believing Jesus Christ

1:34:11Jay Dyeris the word of God?...

1:34:12Jonathan ShelleyText. You just made a a lie and and just a ridiculous railing accusation that you can't prove.

1:34:17Jay DyerOf the text and the Muslim view of the text. Show me a Jew that believes that Jesus Christ is the word of God. You are a Muslim

1:34:24Jonathan Shelleyin your Show me a Muslim

1:34:26Jay Dyerthat believes Jesus Christ is the word of God.

1:34:27Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)We must move the next one. This one from Jerome Alain. Says, see how... We got that. No name, x, says pastor Jonathan clearly didn't take the comments under his, quote, orthodoxy exposed video, unquote, seriously.

1:34:41Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)This one from Descent and

1:34:43Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)Don't worry. You just, like, just roll your eyes at it. You don't have to give it a response. That's what I used to do. But Descent and Resist says, so by Protestant logic, if Jesus is the Bible, they're practically Muslims because

1:34:56Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)is it not true that Muslims believe that the Quran is uncreated

1:35:00Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)while at the same time Allah is uncreated? This is Yep. Pure and utter nonsense.

1:35:05Jay DyerExactly. I I do wanna

1:35:06Jonathan Shelleycomment because here's the thing. The Muslims do not believe that Jesus Christ is God. They don't believe that Jesus Christ is eternal. They believe

1:35:12Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)that Jesus Christ is free.

1:35:14Jay DyerYou gotta give

1:35:15Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)a chance to respond.

1:35:16Jonathan ShelleySo how in the world could I be a Muslim? They don't believe... They do not believe Jesus Christ is the word of God and he's eternal.

1:35:21Jay DyerMaximum ADIQ here. Maximum ADIQ.

1:35:24Jonathan ShelleyGood ad hominem.

1:35:25Jay DyerYeah. Very impressive. That's a Muslim view of the text.

1:35:28Jonathan ShelleyVery impressive for someone else. Once you get the text

1:35:30Jay DyerAll you can do is make ad hominem. No. A Muslim view of the text.

1:35:33Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)Okay. We do have to go to the next one. Tony the Baptist says, is the orthodox argument that the Bible is not the word of God?

1:35:39Jay DyerNo. This is equivocation.

1:35:42Jay DyerIt is the written testimony

1:35:44Jay Dyerto the person of the word. You can, in a sense, call it the word of God. That doesn't mean it's the only usage of the word of God. I've been arguing that from the very beginning. This person is just fundamentally too stupid to make a distinction, which he's already admitted multiple times he has to make.

1:35:58Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)This one from Kevin Blackwell says,

1:36:01Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)question for pastor John. You said the KJB

1:36:04Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)has produced fruit. How many books were in the first KJB?

1:36:10Jonathan ShelleyIt obviously included the Apocrypha in a separate section, but it has the 66 plus the Apocrypha. Sure.

1:36:16Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)Listen, pal.

1:36:16Jonathan ShelleyThey didn't they didn't include that as canon.

1:36:18Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)NAACPASAD AGENTS says, question for pastor.

1:36:21Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)For the first 1,500

1:36:23Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)and even today, many people were illiterate. How does sola scriptura apply to the slow boys who are unable to read scripture themselves? Do they learn from others?

1:36:32Jonathan ShelleyFaith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. So even if you couldn't read, if someone if someone quotes scripture or reads scripture to you, then you could accept that as the word of God. Obviously, the... He just admitted it.

1:36:42Jay DyerHe just admitted it....

1:36:43Jonathan ShelleyTestament, people reading the bible out loud and giving the sense of the reading.

1:36:47Jay DyerHe he admitted my argument.

1:36:48Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)I do wanna let Jonathan finish his sentence.

1:36:52Jonathan ShelleyAgain, you can have someone read the word of God out loud, and you can believe it. You don't have to be able to read.

1:36:57Jay DyerHe admitted my argument at the beginning that when the apostles are preaching the oral word of God, as Peter says in first Peter, that that is hearing the word of God, and it's not just reciting the Bible text. He admitted that they interpret it, so he's admitting that that is the word of God being preached.

1:37:12Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)This one from... Do appreciate it. Hayden Trent says, Paul cannot interpret his own

1:37:17Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)own text infallibly.

1:37:19Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)What chance do we have?

1:37:22Jonathan ShelleyWe're guided by the Holy Spirit. Why would we need the Holy Spirit if if we were infallible or if the apostle Paul was infallible? Why in first Corinthians chapter seven does he have to question whether he has the spirit or not if he's infallible in his own personal opinion? The the the... It's just a flawed argument that doesn't understand the Bible.

1:37:39Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)This one from j b Peltier says, Acts and epistles are...

1:37:43Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)No. That's not it. Sorry about that.

1:37:47Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)Dissent and resist as if Paul is in error,

1:37:50Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)how on God's green earth does sola scriptura hold up?

1:37:55Jonathan ShelleyWell, it's interesting because you have no central authority, you have no pope, and yet several Baptists all believe the same things. That's pretty interesting. It's because the scriptures are final authority. We read the scripture, and we all come to the same conclusions because my sheep hear my voice. That's why we believe in salvation by people.

1:38:11Jay DyerTrue Scotsman.

1:38:13Jay DyerYeah. So can you name somebody in the first fourteen hundred years that had your Baptist views?

1:38:19Jonathan ShelleyNot all of them.

1:38:19Jay DyerNo. Name one.

1:38:21Jonathan ShelleyI'm saying they didn't have all of my views.

1:38:23Jay DyerCan you name one person that had your

1:38:24Jonathan ShelleyThere's not one person that has all of my views. I don't believe that.

1:38:27Jay DyerSo nobody taught did... Who taught Baptist theology in the first fourteen

1:38:30Jonathan Shelleyhundred years?

1:38:30Speaker 3I believe there's plenty of people who

1:38:31Jonathan Shelleycould point to that taught salvation by faith.

1:38:32Jay DyerWho taught Baptist theology?

1:38:34Jay DyerI believe there's

1:38:35Jonathan Shelleyplenty that believed salvation

1:38:36Jay Dyerby faith. Anybody teach did anybody teach Baptist theology in the first fourteen hundred years?

1:38:40Jay DyerProbably, but I can't prove it. You can't name one?

1:38:44Jay DyerNo. Thank you.

1:38:47Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)This one from, do appreciate your question, b Peltier says, Acts and epistles are errant?

1:38:53Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)Debate

1:38:53Jay Dyerover.

1:38:57Jonathan ShelleyYou can't name anybody in the first five hundred years doing icons either. Sure. I can. Whatever.

1:39:02Jay DyerSure. I can. Michael Garden has a book on icons in the first, second, and third century.

1:39:06Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)I've been

1:39:06Jay Dyerto the authority. I've been to the No.

1:39:08Jay DyerAuthority. Fallacy. It's an example fallacy.

1:39:11Jonathan ShelleyThey should just do what you do. Right?

1:39:12Jay DyerIt's not a fallacy to give you a source for documentation.

1:39:16Jay DyerThat's not a fallacy, you idiot. I've been to the catacombs. You can go to the catacombs and see in the second, third century altars and icons in the catacombs in Rome.

1:39:24Jonathan ShelleyI could appeal to plenty of people in the That's not an appeal. Church fathers that have different similar views to me

1:39:29Jay Dyerin many different cases. So now you're moving the goalpost because you you said nobody. You said I had no sources. Have you been to the catacombs?

1:39:36Jay DyerNo.

1:39:37Jay DyerOkay. Do you think that there's icons and imagery and, paintings and altars in the catacombs?

1:39:42Jonathan ShelleyI believe that in seven fifty four AD,

1:39:44Jay Dyerthey declared that they were blacks. And

1:39:46Jonathan ShelleyYou cat... I don't care what you

1:39:47Speaker 3think about 754.

1:39:49Speaker 3I don't care what people think about 754.

1:39:51Jonathan ShelleyNo. It's applies to you. Are

1:39:53Jay Dyerthere No. It's four eighty council. You

1:39:55Jay Dyersaid somebody in the first, second, third, fourth century about icons, and I gave you an example of the catacombs in Rome. Have you been there? Do you think they exist?

1:40:04Speaker 3I'm sure there was some

1:40:04Jonathan Shelleyheretic that had icons, but in

1:40:06Jay Dyerthe other day everywhere. There's plenty of them.

1:40:08Jonathan ShelleyIs there is there anybody from the first century Now

1:40:11Jay Dyeryou've moved to

1:40:11Speaker 3the old from the second or third century

1:40:13Jonathan Shelleythat believes exactly like you and everything? Absolutely. Who's? Name? Irenaeus.

1:40:19Jay DyerWhy are you rolling your eyes?

1:40:20Jonathan ShelleyWhat about the limit of Rome? Did he believe exactly what

1:40:22Jay Dyerdoing Have you read Irenaeus? So you just cherry picked read Irenaeus? Church fathers. You rolled your eyes. I have you read...

1:40:28Jonathan ShelleyI don't believe anybody's read all of the writings of

1:40:30Jay Dyerall of years at all.

1:40:32Jonathan ShelleyHave you read them all? I've read very selective books from the previous.

1:40:35Jay DyerCan you name one of his books?

1:40:37Jonathan ShelleyNo.

1:40:38Jonathan ShelleyThen how do you know,

1:40:39Jay Dyerwhen you rolled your eyes, that I don't have the same position?

1:40:42Jonathan ShelleyAgain,

1:40:43Jonathan Shelleyit's a difficult argument

1:40:45Jonathan Shelleyto really make.

1:40:46Jay DyerWell, you asked me the question. Why are you saying your own arguments are difficult, idiot?

1:40:51Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)There's lots problems.

1:40:53Jonathan ShelleyThat are impossible to prove to.

1:40:54Jay DyerWell, then why'd you ask me that? It's an impossible

1:40:56Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)question, you hate to hear it. Ryan Baronish says, question for Shelley. How do you know that Paul died if the Bible doesn't mention his death?

1:41:06Jonathan ShelleyIt's pointed on the man wants to die. I I think it's a silly question. I don't think anybody believes he's alive.

1:41:12Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)Mastered by Grace says, for Jay, what is the spiritual nature of scripture?

1:41:17Jay DyerYeah. I mean, all the church fathers described the inspiration that the Orthodox Church would adhere to as similar to the synergy of the two natures in Christ. So just as there's a divine nature synergized

1:41:28Jay Dyerthe union with the human nature, the human authors have a synergy with the holy spirit to write the text. So they have a human element and they have a divine element, and so both are included. And no, I don't believe that they're

1:41:38Jay Dyeruninspired or... I don't think they have errors. I said that they're not divine in the sense of uncreated.

1:41:43Jay DyerThey are created texts that men created in history, obviously.

1:41:47Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)This one from... Do appreciate your question.

1:41:50Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)Dominic for Christ who was

1:41:52Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)claiming

1:41:53Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)that

1:41:54Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)Dominic, you gotta just wait. There are other people that have questions too. Relax. Said for John, if the Bible is eternal, the Bible in it...

1:42:02Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)The people in it have no free will, including the evil they do,

1:42:06Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)or God is eternally bound by human choice. Which is it?

1:42:10Jonathan ShelleyI'm not a Calvinist. I believe in free will, so I I don't know if I

1:42:15Jonathan Shelleyreally could

1:42:16Jonathan Shelleygo down that line of of thinking. I believe that we all have free will, so...

1:42:21Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)This one from, do appreciate your question. Hayden Trent says, just peace up his Mormon level epistemology for knowing the canon. He just said nobody is infallible.

1:42:31Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)Then how does he have certainty about the canon himself? Is the Holy Spirit's internal guidance also fallible?

1:42:38Jonathan ShelleyNo. Holy spirit's not fallible.

1:42:41Jonathan ShelleySo, obviously, those who are saved have the holy spirit abiding inside of them. Jesus So

1:42:45Jay Dyeryou're a follower. Sheep hear my voice. Notice this. Paul is fallible,

1:42:47Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)but he's We gotta give And so we gotta give John

1:42:49Jonathan Shelleya chance answer a question. I have to believe what Christ said. Christ said that my sheep hear my voice.

1:42:54Jay DyerHas to be true. The canon.

1:42:56Jonathan ShelleyFor those who are saved. But, again

1:42:57Jay DyerChrist didn't give you the

1:42:59Jonathan Shelleythese books, specifically,

1:43:01Jonathan Shelleywe all agree on. It's it's whether or not the apocryphalist It

1:43:04Jonathan Shelleydoesn't matter. Or whether or not Jay's, you know, cherry pick tradition and cherry pick stream of churches

1:43:10Jonathan Shelleyis There's no cherry picking.

1:43:11Speaker 3There's no cherry picking. Just uses

1:43:14Speaker 3his private judgment.

1:43:14Jay DyerYou cherry

1:43:15Jonathan Shelleypick He your believes he's right. He's picked the infallible.

1:43:17Jay DyerI didn't argue that. How does he know? You said that you're right. You said that it's a purely subjective judgment that God told you bro. Said that the... Because you're you're ridiculous. I do get an apostle's error, but you don't.

1:43:29Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)Is is that if he wants more time to finish that, I... It's a person asking him a question. I can't let you interrupt while he's trying to answer someone else's question.

1:43:38Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)Jonathan, do you have something else you want to add, or were you No. Go ahead.

1:43:42Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)Well, then... Okay. Alright.

1:43:45Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)We'll go to the

1:43:45Jonathan Shelleynext one. Was more upset about why he was overtalking me when I was talking, but it's

1:43:49Jay Dyernot Because, again, he doesn't see how silly it is to say that the apostles aired,

1:43:53Jay Dyerbut when he has his own assessment of what the canon is, he doesn't and he's infallible.

1:43:58Jonathan ShelleyI never said the apostles aired and what the books were. I said they made mistakes.

1:44:01Jay DyerThey don't have... There's no list of apostles having... There's no apostolic list of books.

1:44:06Jonathan ShelleyYou admitted that Peter made a mistake. We both agreed there.

1:44:09Jay DyerThat's not the same thing as theological. And you just agreed that it was the

1:44:12Jonathan Shelleysame thing as theological

1:44:13Jonathan Shelleyerror. Down. You you have a you have a same an egg problem. They didn't tell him what to pass down, how did they know? Well, just trust me, bro.

1:44:20Jay DyerNo. I didn't say just trust me, bro. I have... I started referencing things, and you said, don't go to that. Who cares? You started laughing at the church fathers when that's the only way. You you admit that you go to the tradition of the fathers. So you undid your own argument.

1:44:31Jonathan ShelleyI don't go to the tradition of the fathers to decide what's canon.

1:44:34Jay DyerYou admitted that Matthew is known by apostolic tradition.

1:44:37Speaker 3Yes. There are good traditions that have been passed out.

1:44:39Jonathan ShelleyAnd there is the nine. You... But I I accept tradition.

1:44:43Jay DyerYou admitted that about the canon.

1:44:45Jonathan ShelleyI admitted that the 66 books have been passed out.

1:44:47Jay DyerMatthew.

1:44:48Jonathan ShelleyMatthew.

1:44:50Jonathan ShelleyYes. And I said that that's a good tradition. There's good traditions.

1:44:52Jay DyerSo you rely on tradition. So you rely on tradition as well?

1:44:56Jonathan ShelleyAbsolutely.

1:44:57Jonathan ShelleyWe rely on church and tradition, but we know it. We put them in their place. They're subject to Christ. This is tradition.

1:45:03Jonathan ShelleyYou try to elevate man and tradition on the power of Christ.

1:45:06Jay DyerThis is about what tradition tells us what goes in the Bible. Which tradition?

1:45:11Jay DyerThe one about Matthew.

1:45:14Jay DyerYeah. Again, we agree.

1:45:15Speaker 3Where we

1:45:16Jay Dyerdisagree Then you're relying on tradition for the Bible.

1:45:19Jonathan ShelleyYou know? You you just you just switch the... You just switch. You're you're moving the gold plank anything. Disagree. I can agree that Matthew, I accept that tradition. You and I both disagree with

1:45:29Jay DyerCatholic It's about

1:45:30Jonathan Shelleycanonicity. Oh, then why do you reject Catholic traditions?

1:45:33Jay DyerNo. It's talking about canonicity for the book of Matthew.

1:45:36Speaker 3You reject

1:45:37Speaker 3all kinds of different traditions from

1:45:38Jay Dyerthe Book What does that have to do with this? Talking about you relying on tradition for Matthew.

1:45:42Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)Let's go the next book.

1:45:44Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)J. B. Peltier says, Jonathan...

1:45:46Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)Alright, Jonathan. It's a very serious question. Do you have a demon, or is your head full of rocks?

1:45:52Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)Okay. Thank

1:45:53Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)you for taking a Justin good

1:45:56Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)Henley

1:45:57Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)says gospels and acts were written in sixty five AD. What scripture was Paul teaching to the new covenant Christians and advising others in the epistles to teach?

1:46:07Jonathan ShelleyIn the book of acts, it references the apostle Paul teaching out of the old testament.

1:46:10Jonathan ShelleySo, you know, obviously, he had the Old Testament scriptures to teach and preach out of. He shows them, we have... In the book of Acts chapter number, eight, you have them teaching out of the book of Isaiah.

1:46:21Jonathan ShelleySo, obviously, they have the Old Testament scriptures to reference. They have Christ's words that he did teach to them, that he spoke to them. So they have those that they can rely upon.

1:46:30Jonathan ShelleyAnd, obviously, you have the New Testament epistles. Once they're there, they have that scripture as well. The Bible teaches that the the apostle Paul was actually visited

1:46:38Jonathan Shelleyand was given words of knowledge. Obviously, the Holy Spirit came upon the apostle Paul, and he was able to, teach and preach scripture.

1:46:45Jay DyerIf a Mormon comes and says that he has the internal testimony of the Holy Spirit telling him that the Book of Mormon is supposed to be part of the Bible, There's no way that this person can objectively

1:46:56Jay Dyergive a criteria by which he is correct and a Mormon is wrong because his final court of appeal was his own subjective feelings.

1:47:03Jonathan ShelleyNow, the Book of Mormon doesn't go all the way back to the time of Christ additionally. Nor does...

1:47:07Jay DyerNor does your church.... Is not internally

1:47:09Jonathan Shelleyconsistent. Nor does your church. And the Book of Mormon...

1:47:11Jay DyerYou admitted. You admitted your church doesn't go back.

1:47:14Speaker 3Didn't say that my church...

1:47:15Jonathan ShelleyI said the scriptures, bro. You can't even you can't even pay the scriptures.

1:47:19Jay DyerYou don't even engage with the God

1:47:20Jonathan Shelleychurch whatsoever. You just make up wild activities.

1:47:22Jay DyerMormon. You are a Mormon. You know, how am seeing as a Mormon.

1:47:26Jonathan ShelleyI believe the scripture... So the

1:47:27Speaker 366 books I Old

1:47:28Jonathan ShelleyMan didn't come from the the first century.

1:47:31Jonathan ShelleyIs that what you're claiming now? You cut down what came down from the first century.

1:47:34Speaker 3What did I cut down? I said

1:47:35Jay Dyerthat this You don't believe the deuterocanon in

1:47:37Jonathan Shelleythe first century?

1:47:37Jay DyerYour own stupid KGV had the deuterocanon. You just said, well, they didn't have it fully part of the canon. Says who?

1:47:43Jonathan ShelleySo did Jerome. So did a lot of people. Why? Now your jury didn't accept the apology.

1:47:46Jay DyerYou're cherry picking

1:47:48Jay DyerJerome as if we're supposed to follow Jerome. So what?

1:47:50Speaker 3I'm not cherry picking. I'm saying there was people that Why Jerome?

1:47:53Jay DyerSame thing. Why Jerome?

1:47:54Jonathan ShelleyThere's an example of someone that translated into Latin, which became a very

1:47:57Jay Dyerinfluential And Jerome submitted to Rome.

1:47:59Jonathan ShelleyVulgar translation. He was

1:48:00Speaker 3one of the most

1:48:01Jonathan Shelleybrilliant people that translated the bible in the last

1:48:03Jay DyerAnd he was And he was

1:48:04Jonathan Shelleya he was Just humanly speaking. Didn't care if he Was

1:48:06Jay Dyerhe a Catholic?

1:48:07Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)We must go to the next one.

1:48:08Jonathan ShelleyYes. He was Catholic.

1:48:09Jay DyerThank you. So now you admit that you

1:48:11Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)rely on Catholic. But guys, we just have some questions.

1:48:13Jonathan ShelleyConfession says that you're Catholic. In the 1647

1:48:16Jonathan Shelleyconfession, you call yourself... I'm... Yes, I'm probably...... Name war, bro.

1:48:19Speaker 3We're Orthodox Catholic. Y'all called yourselves Catholic until the... We are

1:48:22Jay DyerOrthodox Catholic. We lost the...

1:48:24Jonathan ShelleyWe're for the next one.

1:48:25Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)You And do I'm gonna ask if you guys can only do

1:48:28Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)rebuttals, like, once in a great while. So sometimes I'm I'm just gonna say we can't do it at this one because we do have a ton of questions. Master by Grace says, Jay, what did Paul use to correct Peter?

1:48:40Jay DyerThere's nothing about referring to Scripture that necessitates

1:48:44Jay Dyeror requires sola scriptura. In fact, in the councils,

1:48:48Jay Dyerthe Scriptures are given primacy,

1:48:50Jay Dyertypically, in argumentation.

1:48:52Jay DyerSo I can believe in multiple authorities,

1:48:55Jay Dyerand I can also believe within the scriptures that there's a tier of authority. That does not equate to the non sequitur to say that it's sola scriptura.

1:49:02Jonathan ShelleyHe didn't answer the question.

1:49:03Jay DyerYes. I did. I said that appealing to scripture does not equate to sola scriptura. That is your non sequitur.

1:49:11Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)This one coming in from. Do appreciate your question. Hayden Trent says, is the divine voice fallible or infallible? Either way, sola scriptura is false.

1:49:19Jonathan ShelleyThe divine voice is obviously infallible. It's God. So, obviously, it would be infallible.

1:49:23Jay DyerBut God speaks to you?

1:49:26Jay DyerI do

1:49:26Jonathan Shelleynot believe he audibly speaks to me at all. I believe that

1:49:28Jay DyerYou said the divine voice told you the canon. You said the divine voice told you the canon. Only through the scripture. I don't think The bible doesn't tell you the canon.

1:49:34Jonathan ShelleyWhat I It doesn't tell

1:49:35Jay Dyerthe canon. Did you even listen to words that I said?

1:49:37Jonathan ShelleyIt doesn't tell you that God doesn't speak to me audibly?

1:49:40Jay DyerDoes the Bible tell you the canon? You don't even listen. Does the Bible tell you the canon?

1:49:44Jay DyerThe Bible tells

1:49:45Jonathan Shelleyme that I'm gonna hear God's voice.

1:49:47Jay DyerThe canon. The

1:49:49Jay Dyercanon. Which canon?

1:49:50Speaker 3No. There is... Just like it says, there's So no that's

1:49:52Jay Dyerwhy you said the divine voice. Your Orthodox church or your Which divine voice?

1:49:55Jonathan ShelleyOr tradition.

1:49:56Jay DyerWhich divine voice?

1:49:58Jonathan ShelleyThe scripture itself.

1:49:59Jay DyerThe question is which scripture?

1:50:02Jay DyerDo you understand there's an author to a book?

1:50:05Jay DyerWhich divine voice is telling you which canon of scripture?

1:50:08Jonathan ShelleyThe scripture

1:50:09Jonathan Shelleyis the divine Which

1:50:11Jay Dyerdivine

1:50:12Jay DyerGod.

1:50:13Jay DyerGod.

1:50:15Jay DyerDoes it tell you the canon?

1:50:16Jonathan ShelleyThis is really hard for you. Does the scripture tell that there's an author to a

1:50:19Jay Dyerbook? Does the scripture tell

1:50:20Jonathan Shelleyyou of God spake as they're moved by the holy ghost?

1:50:22Jay DyerThe holy ghost tell you the canon?

1:50:25Jonathan ShelleyNo. I already answered the question.

1:50:26Jay DyerIt doesn't tell you the canon, so you're appealing to that doesn't an anarcho. So No. It doesn't circular thing that you're appealing to.

1:50:32Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)So you just repeat yourself again. Okay. This one from Marilyn says, you both would have followed Lucifer out of heaven because you need a master, not a lover and a friend.

1:50:39Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)Okay. Josh Lawrence says... Okay.

1:50:42Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)Vulpes says, question for

1:50:45Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)Jonathan. Without appealing to the masses or special pleading, by what authority is my Chinese takeout menu, which is divine,

1:50:52Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)not the word of God?

1:50:54Jonathan ShelleyWell, number one, doesn't even claim to be the word of God. Number two, it doesn't have the same divine voice as the rest of scripture. Number three, it wasn't received by Christians.

1:51:01Jonathan ShelleyI mean,

1:51:02Speaker 3it doesn't fail... It doesn't pass any of the tests that

1:51:04Jay DyerI gave doctor Seuss. The Christians that are received.

1:51:07Jonathan ShelleyEven if you you if can see that all Catholics, all Orthodox, and all Protestants

1:51:12Jonathan Shelleyinclude the the Christian, so called.

1:51:13Jay DyerThat is a fallacy. They all reject matter that they all do it. It matters what basis they do it, which is the apostolic tradition. You have no basis

1:51:22Speaker 3for it wasn't passed down from Christians.

1:51:24Jay DyerChristians didn't receive it. What Christians?

1:51:27Jay DyerAny.

1:51:28Jay DyerWho?

1:51:28Jonathan ShelleyZero.

1:51:29Jonathan ShelleyWhat Christians accepted this Chinese menu? Zero.

1:51:33Jay DyerNo. He's arguing that if the canon is, fallible, then you can add new books to it.

1:51:39Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)This one's from... There

1:51:42Jay Dyerwe go. In theory. He agreed to In

1:51:44Jay Dyertheory, yes, the canon is fallible, but I do believe it's...... To it.

1:51:48Jay DyerWhat's... Mason Marcus.... What you believe.

1:51:50Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)Mason Marcus says, stop. He's already dead. Rock on steady. Reckon steady, says question for pastor... Jesus observed

1:51:57Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)the feast of dedication and tradition and deuterocanon,

1:52:01Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)not the Protestant canon. Does this show he affirmed both?

1:52:06Jonathan ShelleyCan

1:52:07Jonathan Shelleyyou read that one more time? I'm sorry. I I

1:52:09Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)No problem. They say, Jesus observed

1:52:12Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)the feast of dedication in tradition and deuterocanon,

1:52:16Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)not the Protestant canon. Does this show he affirmed both?

1:52:20Jonathan ShelleyI believe that Jesus obviously followed the traditions

1:52:23Jonathan Shelleythat are taught in the Old Testament,

1:52:25Jonathan Shelleyand there was good traditions in those. He did not observe the traditions of the elders as they rebuked him for it. And I see there is zero evidence that he followed the the Apocrypha in any way. That's just that's just not true.

1:52:38Jay DyerYeah. I have a a whole article from all Protestant scholars

1:52:42Jay Dyeraffirming and

1:52:44Jay Dyeradmitting that the deuterocanon,

1:52:46Jay Dyerwhich the apostles almost entirely used

1:52:49Jay Dyerand cited, in many cases, the deuterocanon.

1:52:52Jay DyerSo I will put that into the chat.

1:52:53Jonathan ShelleyI would I would love... Can we just do your number one point? Because I've read your article, and your number one point is so ridiculous that if anybody can believe

1:53:00Jay Dyerit Nobody cares what you think is ridiculous because you made yourself ridiculous tonight. And in the article in the

1:53:06Jay Dyershut up. In the article, I have the link right there.

1:53:09Jay DyerYou can read all the Protestant scholars that make this guy look ridiculous.

1:53:13Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)I'll give you the last word on that, Jonathan, since the question is for you.

1:53:16Jay DyerAppeal to authority. If we look

1:53:17Jonathan Shelleyat the first example, he has Ecclesiasticus

1:53:20Jonathan Shelleychapter number 11

1:53:22Jonathan Shelleyas saying that it's quoting second John one verse 10. And Ecclesiasticus

1:53:26Jonathan Shelley11 verse 31 says, for Eliath in wait and turneth good into evil, and in things worthy praise will lay blame upon thee. Second John one ten, if there come any undoing, bring not this doctrine, receive him not in your house, neither bid him Godspeed. These aren't even on the same planet. They're not referencing each other whatsoever.

1:53:41Jonathan ShelleyAnd this is his number one proof. That's not... That's the horrific scholarship.

1:53:45Jay DyerThis person is so stupid that he buy into. I wanna reply

1:53:48Jonathan Shelleyto

1:53:49Jonathan Shelleythis This

1:53:50Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)is from... JB says rabbinical Judaism didn't exist yet. Jonathan.

1:53:58Jonathan ShelleySay that again?

1:53:59Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)Rabbinical

1:54:00Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)Judaism didn't exist

1:54:02Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)yet,

1:54:03Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)Jonathan.

1:54:04Jonathan ShelleyBefore the time of Christ? Yeah. I don't... I I believe that the Talmud is is post Christ.

1:54:09Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)Hayden Trent says, divine voice told me apophagia is scripture.

1:54:15Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)The mission Okay. Obesity.

1:54:17Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)Ahead.

1:54:18Jay DyerGo ahead.

1:54:19Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)Says, pastor, where do you find pharisees in Old Testament? Same for Jay.

1:54:26Jonathan ShelleyWhere do I find them? The the pharisees are just brought up multiple times in the Bible as people that had gone deviant from the word of God, and they're teaching their traditions above the scripture. No. So he doesn't in the Catholic churches.

1:54:38Jay DyerYeah. So, again, he lied about my argument. My argument does not begin with ecclesiasticus.

1:54:43Jay DyerIn my first article about the canon of scripture and refuting the Protestant view, I cite nothing but Protestant scholars all the way down. There's nothing relying upon ecclesiasticus.

1:54:54Jay DyerAnd he thinks that because an argument is first, it's the it's the strongest. This is a stupid person. Here's the article right there. You can read it. All it is is Protestant scholars

1:55:03Jay Dyerproving and admitting that the deuterocanonical

1:55:06Jay Dyertexts are in the Septuagint, and that's what the apostles use. That's not an argument. That's not an appeal to authority to bring in authorities, you idiot.

1:55:14Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)There's one going from line of Judah 56. Question for John. How do you get an infallible New Testament canon with a fallible church slash councils? Seems like a paradox.

1:55:24Jonathan ShelleyWell, of course, we got the scripture themselves from fallible man. The Bible teaches that holy men of God spake as they're moved by the Holy Ghost. None of them were perfect. They all admitted they had mistakes.

1:55:34Jonathan ShelleyThe end of the day, we we have to recognize that mankind is a sinner. Why why would I believe if every single person's a sinner that if you added enough of them together, they would magically not be a sinner or now magically be infallible like some spiritual megatron

1:55:48Jonathan Shelleythat did

1:55:49Jay DyerSo he just admitted that the canon of scripture itself is fallible a few minutes ago. Right? So it's a it's a fallible collection of infallible books, as they like to say, and undoes his position.

1:55:59Jonathan ShelleySaid that someone could get it wrong. Not that the canon's in... Is fallible.

1:56:03Jay DyerYou did. You said the canon could be wrong directly.

1:56:05Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)Says question to Jay. Do the oral traditions of the true orthodox have validity?

1:56:09Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)If no, how do you know that?

1:56:12Jay DyerI don't know what she's... What group is he talking about. I mean, is he talking about just orthodox in general,

1:56:17Jay Dyeror is he talking about a small schismatic group?

1:56:20Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)Descendants I mean, we would this Go ahead.

1:56:22Jay DyerYeah. Go ahead.

1:56:23Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)As the Protestant... Ask the Protestant if he knows who Saint Polycarp is.

1:56:29Jonathan ShelleyNo. I'm not I'm not super familiar with him. No.

1:56:31Jay DyerSo he doesn't know one of the most famous post apostolic fathers. He has no idea what the first, second, third century church fathers teach.

1:56:38Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)Mister Lucky Man says...

1:56:40Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)Okay.

1:56:42Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)Freemason j has cooked.

1:56:44Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)Third Freemason. Alright. Just snake foot says, IFB

1:56:48Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)equals sovereign citizen. They get pulled over. Pull out the constitution and tell the cop the text itself is the final authority, not the courts.

1:56:57Jonathan ShelleyWell, that is true, that if a cop violates the constitution, he'd be wrong, but, you know, whatever.

1:57:02Jay DyerThat doesn't make the expositor

1:57:05Jay Dyerof the constitution the final authority. The supreme court ends up being the final authority, which is all... That would... That disproves its whole position.

1:57:14Jonathan ShelleyYeah. Because the supreme court's never overruled themselves and made mistakes. Oh, wait. They did, just like your church.

1:57:19Jay DyerIt's an analogy, you idiot. When did the Orthodox church

1:57:21Jonathan ShelleyI just applied your own analogy.

1:57:23Jay DyerWhen did we make a mistake?

1:57:24Jonathan ShelleySeven fifty four AD, you said icons are blasphemous. 787 No.

1:57:28Jay DyerWe're not sure if it would say that. So That was an empress that was an empress' council. That's not true.

1:57:34Jonathan ShelleyOh, so the empress Irene,

1:57:36Jonathan Shelleythis lady comes in and says, hey, guys. You have to change your position or you're no longer a bishop. And then they just all magically decided to switch positions.

1:57:43Jay DyerYeah. The same people Wow. In for people who determine you canon, you idiot.

1:57:47Jonathan ShelleyYou need empress Irene to

1:57:49Jay Dyertell you what's right.

1:57:50Jay DyerShe's the one that had the false counsel.

1:57:52Speaker 3No. No. You just got

1:57:54Jonathan Shelleythat wrong. Seven eighty seven, empress Irene is the one that brought the icons in, and you're you're you're wrong about your fact there. Number two,

1:58:02Jonathan Shelleythe fact that she put pressure on

1:58:05Jonathan Shelleythese bishops to go ahead and change their position or they were gonna lose their bishopric

1:58:10Jonathan Shelleyis just another fact. So, of course, with all that political pressure No.

1:58:14Jay DyerYou're right. I I just misstated. It's not empress Irene. It's, the council of Herrera

1:58:19Jay Dyerwas a false council

1:58:21Jay Dyerbecause

1:58:22Jay Dyerit was rejecting the previous councils and their teachings. It's not a false... I'm saying that the imperial power was behind the council. That is... It is the wrong... I did reference the wrong person.

1:58:34Jay DyerBut that was convoked by Constantine the fifth, not Irene.

1:58:37Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)Just one from... Do appreciate your question, snake foots. We got that. Tyler Ross... Taylor Ross says question for Jonathan. Can you prove the perspicuity

1:58:45Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)of scripture using sola scriptura without assuming that the scriptura

1:58:50Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)is perspicuous?

1:58:52Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)Because that would be circular logic.

1:58:55Jonathan ShelleyI've I've I've I've agreed that my my position's circular. I've I've never denied that. I do believe that the scripture is self authenticating, and and the scripture talks about being preserved. So if I believe that the scripture is preserved, then I would have to believe that there's a book out there that's been preserved. That's why I use the King James Bible because it's based on the Hebrew and the Greek, which has been preserved.

1:59:15Jonathan ShelleyAnd so, therefore, we have a preserved Bible in English today.

1:59:19Jay DyerHow do you know that the rabbinic Masoretic... Proto Masoretic is right?

1:59:23Jonathan ShelleyWell, the King James Bible does deviate very,

1:59:26Jonathan Shelleyvery seldom, but a few times from the Masoretic, but they don't deviate from the consonantal vowels of the Hebrew text.

1:59:32Jonathan ShelleySo

1:59:33Jay DyerNo. But I'm saying that the the Masoretic

1:59:35Jay Dyerlisting of the canon, how do you know that's correct?

1:59:38Jonathan ShelleyWell, I just said that they don't always use the Masoretic valve pointings.

1:59:42Jay DyerAnd You said earlier in the debate that it's the rabbinic

1:59:46Jay Dyercanon that you use for the Old Testament. How do we know that?

1:59:50Jonathan ShelleyYou're you're putting words in my mouth. No.

1:59:52Speaker 3You said that. I did

1:59:53Jonathan Shelleynot say anything about rabbinic.

1:59:54Jay DyerSaid the Hebrew canon. That's the rabbinic.

1:59:56Jonathan ShelleyThat's the... Whatever. You said that Hebrews had the canon.

2:00:00Jay DyerYou said the Hebrew canon, and you thought that that was just the Hebrew canon. That's actually the rabbinic canon.

2:00:06Jonathan ShelleyWe use the Hebrew consonantal vows, period. Masoretic canon. I'm not talking about that. You just don't understand textual criticism.

2:00:13Jay DyerIt's it's You're not a textual critic. Point. You you you didn't wanna go to the... You don't know. Are you a textual critic?

2:00:18Jonathan ShelleyI'm just explaining to you that did not deviate from the Hebrew consonants. Are you a textual critic? From the Masoretic point pointing on seldom points.

2:00:26Jay DyerAre you a textual critic?

2:00:28Jonathan ShelleyI think everybody employs textual criticism. Are you a textual critic?

2:00:34Jay DyerEveryone is.

2:00:36Jay DyerOh my god.

2:00:37Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)This one coming in. From, do appreciate your question. Hayden Trent says, without church fathers, you wouldn't have scripture. God did not hand down the KGV in 1600.

2:00:47Jonathan ShelleyI already addressed that I believe Christians handed down the the manuscripts that they were delivered

2:00:51Jay Dyerfrom people that he thinks are heretics. People that he thinks are heretics is who gave him the Bible. He relies on his... Our tradition, and then he calls us heretics,

2:00:59Jay DyerBut he's a heretic.

2:01:00Speaker 3The scribes and the pharisees weren't even saved, and they

2:01:02Jonathan Shelleywere able to copy the bible. And, again, additionally, a machine can copy this bible. Yeah.

2:01:06Jay DyerBut the point is that

2:01:07Jonathan Shelleyno person copied

2:01:08Jay Dyerthis.

2:01:09Jay DyerSo No person copied this? Are you talking about?

2:01:12Jonathan ShelleyThis is made by a machine. A machine can copy a a manuscript.

2:01:16Jay DyerIt wasn't talking about the first 1,400, you idiot. We're not talking about now.

2:01:19Jonathan ShelleyExactly. Christians were copying the bible, but even though they saved, it doesn't matter. Who were those who were not saved, and they copied the Old Testament

2:01:25Jay Dyerthose Christians in those century... Yeah. But Jesus said that the holy spirit would not leave his church. Right?

2:01:31Jonathan ShelleyI don't believe it has.

2:01:32Jay DyerOkay. In those centuries, the first fourteen hundred years, did it leave?

2:01:36Jay DyerNo. Okay. So where were the representative true theologians and Christians according to you then? I don't

2:01:41Jonathan ShelleyI don't have this, like, unbroken genealogy that I'm Okay.

2:01:44Jay DyerSo the church can die? Did you... Didn't Jesus say in Matthew 18 that

2:01:47Jonathan ShelleyBut the church obviously didn't die.

2:01:48Speaker 3I'm still here.

2:01:48Jay DyerMatthew sixteen eighteen. No.

2:01:50Jay DyerIn the... In those centuries...

2:01:52Jay DyerIn Matthew sixteen sixteen eighteen, Jesus said the gates of hell would not prevail against the church, and he would be with the church according to the end of the age through the holy spirit. So where were the

2:02:01Jonathan Shelleytrue believers in those first fourteen hundred years?

2:02:04Jonathan ShelleyI believe that Christians always existed, period, regardless of how

2:02:07Jay Dyerchurch was. Representative

2:02:09Jay Dyerbodies or people.

2:02:11Jonathan ShelleyThere's there's all kinds of groups that were outside the Catholic church. Name

2:02:14Jay Dyername some that you believe that weren't novationists or Albigensian

2:02:17Jay Dyerheritists.

2:02:17Jonathan ShelleyI don't like pointing to these heritists.

2:02:20Jay DyerAnybody. Because you don't

2:02:21Jay DyerAgain, so you made your own sect.

2:02:23Jay DyerHow did I make my own sect? You have no connection with the church of history. You just made up a church.

2:02:28Jonathan ShelleyDid I make up Baptist now?

2:02:30Jonathan ShelleyThe Baptists are made up, idiot.

2:02:32Jonathan ShelleyOkay. How are they

2:02:33Jay Dyermade up?

2:02:34Jay DyerWhere were they in the

2:02:35Jonathan Shelleyfirst fourteen hundred years?

2:02:37Jonathan ShelleyAgain,

2:02:39Jay Dyerwhere were they in the first fourteen hundred years?

2:02:41Jonathan ShelleyWhere was your... Your Orthodox tradition is changing constantly?

2:02:44Speaker 3That's a Catholic tradition

2:02:45Jay Dyeris changing. No. It's not. You can't... You can't break out

2:02:49Jonathan Shelleyanybody in the second century that has some iron that they're kissing and worshiping like

2:02:54Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)you Rachel

2:02:55Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)Wilson says Jonathan's

2:02:57Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)argument is, quote,

2:02:58Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)you know it when you see it, unquote. Then why don't any of the different dozens or hundreds of Protestant churches agree on what scripture says? They all disagree. So how is the canon of scripture

2:03:09Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)or its meaning self evident?

2:03:12Jonathan ShelleyWell, the Bible talks about divisions coming from heresy. Obviously, there's tons of heretics. There's horrific Protestant churches out there. The Orthodox, why did they split from Coptic? Why did the Catholics separate from the Orthodox? Obviously, people have divisions. You know, why is there the Russian Orthodox? Why is there the Greek Orthodox? Those are not divisions.

2:03:28Jay DyerYou can't

2:03:29Jonathan Shelleyclaim that those not divisions.

2:03:30Jay DyerYou don't even

2:03:31Jonathan Shelleyknow what you're talking about.

2:03:32Jay DyerThey're not divisions.

2:03:32Jonathan ShelleySo, obviously, you know, he wants to sit here and claim

2:03:34Jay DyerHe doesn't even know Malcolm, you all don't agree.

2:03:36Jonathan ShelleyThere's no such thing as this, we, quote, agree. It's just as soon as you don't agree with Jay's position, you're just kicked out of the club. This is total nonsense.

2:03:44Jay DyerHe doesn't even know that the orthodox

2:03:47Jay Dyerare... Those are liturgical national churches. They're not disagreements.

2:03:51Jonathan ShelleyWere they having a lit... A liturgical service in people's houses in the first century?

2:03:56Jay DyerYes. They were. With icons? Yes. You can read the scholarship on it. Like,

2:04:00Jay Dyeryou don't even know. Do you look at the diary Europos synagogue?

2:04:03Speaker 3Your liturgy on a Sunday morning doesn't even read from the old testament. The apostle Paul

2:04:06Jonathan Shelleyis preaching the old testament in the book of

2:04:08Jonathan ShelleyIt... It's silly to think they're having this liturgical service.

2:04:11Jay DyerYou understand product.

2:04:12Speaker 3Greek Orthodox

2:04:12Jay DyerChurch. Scholars admit this.

2:04:14Jay DyerYou're laughing with your smug nonsense.

2:04:16Jonathan ShelleySo some random person said it. It must be true?

2:04:18Jay DyerSome random scholar. Some some Mormon scholar. Like Hugh Wagam Young said it, so it must be true. Like Anglican liturgist scholars?

2:04:26Jay DyerBrigham Young said it, so it must be true. Right?

2:04:29Jonathan ShelleyWhat?

2:04:30Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)This one from

2:04:30Jonathan ShelleyI'm admitting How is that different than the Mormons? Just the Mormons of their prophet saying something is true.

2:04:35Jay DyerProtestant academics.

2:04:37Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)This one from, do you appreciate it? Dissent and Resist says, I'm not a Catholic, but I'm going to appeal to Jerome who is Catholic, unquote.

2:04:46Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)Is there seriously any reason why we should believe these people? This is utterly absurdity

2:04:50Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)at this point. How many times is pastor John going to refute himself?

2:04:55Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)So

2:04:56Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)pastor Jonathan, they say that you're refuting yourself when you say, I'm not Catholic, but I'm going to appeal to Jerome who is Catholic.

2:05:02Jonathan ShelleyOkay. Again, he asked me a question specifically. Could I point to anybody that had my specific canon in times past? No. I didn't. To pointed to Jerome as someone that had my particular You're lying.

2:05:13Jay DyerAsked you... You're lying. I asked you the first three centuries.

2:05:17Jonathan ShelleyI'm... You did ask that question. You asked in other parts of the debate or other parts of the discussion. Can you name

2:05:22Jay Dyeranybody that had of first three centuries, can you name somebody with your canon?

2:05:26Jonathan ShelleyRegardless, I'm answering the question of why I answered the question about Jerome.

2:05:30Jay DyerI'm not appealing to answer the question.

2:05:32Jonathan ShelleySo no. My church father.

2:05:34Jay DyerSo is there one of the first three centuries?

2:05:37Jonathan ShelleyThere's plenty of people that appeal to

2:05:40Jay DyerName one.

2:05:41Jonathan ShelleyThe scriptures that I appeal to.

2:05:42Jay DyerYou... So if you don't know, how do you say that? Again,

2:05:46Jay Dyeryou can't name one, so how do you know?

2:05:49Jonathan ShelleyObviously, Saint Athanasius is someone that appeals to the 27 books, and

2:05:54Jonathan ShelleyI appeal this to 27 books of the New Testament.

2:05:57Jay DyerI didn't ask you about that. I asked you about the entire canon of scripture. Athanasius refers to the deuterocanon, so you just refuted yourself again.

2:06:03Jonathan ShelleyAgain,

2:06:04Jonathan Shelleysaying Athanasius does not refer to the deuterocanonical Yes. He does. As scripture.

2:06:08Jay DyerYes. He does.

2:06:09Jonathan ShelleyHe does not. Yes. He does. False statement. He he... In line again.

2:06:13Jay DyerYou don't even notice letters.

2:06:14Jay DyerHis special letters. Shut up. In his festal letters, he says that catechumens

2:06:19Jay Dyerare instructed to study the deuterocanonical

2:06:22Jay Dyertext.

2:06:23Jonathan ShelleyI'll pull up the the Saint Athanasius quote because I I think I

2:06:26Jay DyerI have it in your quote, mine. I'm telling you what he says in the Festal Letters.

2:06:29Jonathan ShelleyHe says says that it is not considered scripture.

2:06:32Jay DyerNo. He says that catechumens

2:06:34Jay Dyerare instructed to read the deuterocanon in the Festal Letters.

2:06:38Jonathan ShelleyHe he puts the apocrypha as not on par with scripture. It's it's a very clear statement.

2:06:42Jay DyerWhy would he tell catechumens

2:06:44Jay Dyerto read it?

2:06:46Jay DyerDo you know what a catechumen is?

2:06:47Jonathan ShelleyHe he could read it for historical value. No. That... That's what

2:06:50Speaker 3they said.

2:06:50Jay DyerYou know what a catechumen is?

2:06:52Jay DyerIt doesn't matter.

2:06:53Jonathan ShelleyHe's saying it's not scripture. That's the point. Do you know what an argument is?

2:06:57Jonathan ShelleyWas... What was scripture, and you identified the apocrypha as not scripture, and then you just lied and said

2:07:03Jay Dyerthat he appealed are to lying. Do you know what a catechumen is?

2:07:06Jonathan ShelleyI don't give a... I don't I don't wanna appeal to

2:07:08Jay DyerYou don't know what he said

2:07:09Jonathan Shelleyof the argument. You're just you're

2:07:10Jay Dyerjust When... It's the part of my argument. Trailer. When he says the catechumens are instructed to read the deuterocanon,

2:07:16Jay Dyeryou don't even know what a catechumen is?

2:07:19Jonathan ShelleyLook. Saint Athanasius

2:07:21Jay DyerSo he doesn't know.

2:07:21Jonathan ShelleySays

2:07:22Jonathan ShelleyHe doesn't know.

2:07:24Jonathan ShelleyApocrypha

2:07:25Jonathan Shelleyis not scripture, and Jay just lied.

2:07:27Jay DyerYou're not even He wants

2:07:28Jonathan Shelleyto ignore that by going

2:07:29Jay Dyeron a rabbit and I'm not gonna allow him to go on has a famous festival letter where it says liar.

2:07:36Jay DyerHe says that the the catechumens are instructed to read the duro canon. You don't even know what a catechumen is. How are you competent to to say what's the case on this?

2:07:45Jay DyerTell me what a catechumen. I can't tell

2:07:46Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)you what... I know

2:07:47Jay Dyerwhat a catechumen is.

2:07:49Jay DyerHave to

2:07:49Jonathan Shelleyknow what a catechumen is to prove the

2:07:50Jay Dyertruth. Do. Yes. Yes. You Yes. Do. Fernando. Fernando.

2:07:55Jonathan ShelleyLet's just let's read. Fernando. Fernando.

2:07:58Jay DyerFernando. Because this is a quote, man. Gentlemen, we gotta go to the

2:08:00Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)next question. Fernando Temecuel says the Old Testament was,

2:08:03Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)for the most part, established hundreds of years before

2:08:06Big Mike (Modern Day Debate moderator)the formation of the New Testament canon councils,