Religion Debate: Islam vs Christianity
Myron Gaines Ijaz Ahmad Daniel Haqiqatjou Sam Shamoun Jay Dyer Moe
2:09Myron GainesAnd we are live. What's up, guys? Welcome to Fresh Hit Podcast, man. We've a special episode for you guys today. We're gonna be having a great debate on religion, Islam versus Christianity.
2:17Myron GainesLet's get into it, guys.
3:08Myron GainesAnd we are live. What's up, guys? Welcome to Fresh Hit podcast, man. We got a special one today for you guys. We're gonna have a religion debate, Islam versus Christianity. Quick announcement, getting to the show though. First and foremost, romo.com/freshfit,
3:18Myron Gainescasuclub.tv.
3:19Myron GainesAs you guys know, that's where you support free speech and support the team. Cowsclub.tv
3:22Myron Gainesis the main place to support. So join up guys. We have a bunch of exclusive content behind the scenes for you guys over there.
3:29Myron GainesAnd, yeah, guys, got four guys in the house, four special guests in the house, matter of fact, which I'll have real quickly go through. We got,
3:37Myron GainesEjaz,
3:38Myron Gainesfrom, EF Dawah. We got Daniel Haqiqatjou,
3:45Myron Gainesand then we got Sam Shamoon, and we got Jay Dyer as well. I apologize if I my issue, if I butchered the name a little bit there.
3:52Myron GainesBut we're gonna be doing a debate here on religion,
3:55Myron Gainesguys, Islam versus Christianity. But I'm gonna have you guys personally introduce yourselves.
4:00Myron GainesI mean, I know who you guys are, but I guys want you guys to introduce yourselves to my audience. We can start with
4:05Myron GainesEjaz from Ephdawah.
4:08Ijaz AhmadYep. Hi. I'm Ejaz from Ephdawah and the I three Institute.
4:12Ijaz AhmadI hope that you can follow all our other accounts and join us on Twitter. I'm a big fan and follower of brother Daniel, and I look forward to seeing how this debate goes.
4:23Myron GainesDaniel, it's on you.
4:25Daniel HaqiqatjouSure. My name is Daniel. I
4:28Daniel Haqiqatjouam a debater. I have a channel Muslim skeptic,
4:31Daniel Haqiqatjouon YouTube. You can also find me on Rumble,
4:34Daniel Haqiqatjouand I founded muslimskeptic.com
4:36Daniel Haqiqatjouwhere we dedicate a lot of time to defending Islam against intellectual challenges, Christianity included. So check that out. Happy to be here.
4:43Myron GainesAwesome. And then can you tell them real quick about Jake? Because I know some of them were expecting Jake to come in, but, you could plan it probably explain it best.
4:51Daniel HaqiqatjouSure. Yeah. Jake had a last minute, issue that came up,
4:54Daniel Haqiqatjouand he's not in the country, so he couldn't make it, unfortunately.
4:58Daniel HaqiqatjouBut, yeah, that's the we have brother Ejaz here to replace him, and Ejaz stepped up at the last minute. So appreciate that.
5:05Myron GainesThank you for coming, brother.
5:08Myron GainesAnd then, Sam?
5:10Sam ShamounWell, Sam Shamoon. I used to write for answeringislam.info,
5:14Sam Shamounbut
5:16Sam Shamounthey stopped publishing new articles years ago, so I started a blog.
5:20Sam ShamounAnsweringislamblog.wordpress.com.
5:23Sam ShamounYou'll find me on Shamoonian. That's my YouTube channel.
5:26Sam ShamounHopefully,
5:27Sam Shamounit stays up, but I'm also on Rumble
5:30Sam Shamounanswering Islam.
5:32Sam ShamounSo that's pretty much my introduction. Not much to say besides that anyway.
5:37Myron GainesThank you for coming on, You were highly requested by a lot of the people,
5:41Myron Gainesso a lot of my supporters are Christians.
5:42Sam ShamounA bald beast like me?
5:44Myron GainesYeah. What was that?
5:46Sam ShamounI said a bald beast like me?
5:48Myron GainesYeah.
5:49Myron GainesLot of my Christian supporters definitely asked me to bring you on, so I'm glad that you're here. And then Jay, please introduce yourself to the people.
5:59Jay DyerYeah. Thanks. Glad to be here, Jay Dyer. I do a lot of debates. That's just part of what I do. I host the fourth hour of Alex Jones every Friday.
6:06Jay DyerI've been doing that for the last four years. I've written several books on Hollywood, symbolism, philosophy, theology.
6:12Jay DyerSo we do all of that, and you can find me on my website, jaysanalysis,
6:16Jay Dyerand then on all the social medias under Jay Dyer.
6:19Myron GainesAlright. Awesome. Thank you so much, guys. So real quick, we're gonna have Moe read a quick word from our sponsor, and then we're gonna get right into the debate.
6:27Myron GainesWell, actually, I'll explain the the breakdown of debate for the audience real quick. Go ahead, Moe. Take it away. Make it quick, and then we'll get right to it.
6:32Sam ShamounWho is that woman that walked by you, man?
6:36Ijaz AhmadI can't say.
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8:12Myron GainesAlright. Awesome. So, thank you very much, Molin. So guys, the way it's gonna go is this. I'll explain it real quick for you. We're gonna have five minute opening,
8:19Myron Gainesbetween both parties. Team Islam is gonna go first, then we're gonna go into topic one which is theology,
8:25Myron GainesTrinity versus the Tawheed, then we are going go into authenticity of Scripture which is round two, and then we are going to do morality, Bible versus the Quran on human rights, okay? We are going to be doing
8:36Myron Gainesthree four minute rounds, okay? So 12 rounds total, So three four minute or sorry. Yeah. Three four minute rounds. Is that what we're gonna do, guys? So and each team has four minutes per argument. They're gonna be able to go ahead and make the argument uninterrupted
8:50Myron Gainesfor four minutes.
8:51Myron GainesIf one party decides to go two minutes or take three minutes or take the full four minutes, it's fine, but it's gonna be between the team. But the first round is opening statements,
8:59Myron Gaineswhere team Islam is gonna take it first and they're gonna go for five minutes, then team christian is gonna go, then we're gonna go to the first topic, which again is theology, Trinity versus the Tawheed. Second round is going to be authenticity of scripture. And then third round is gonna be morality, bible versus the Quran on human rights. And we agreed upon all this beforehand. Wanna make sure that this is even down the middle. I'll be keeping time for the squad. I'll be saying thirty seconds and then ten seconds when they're running into the last thirty and ten seconds respectively.
9:24Myron GainesAnd other than that,
9:26Myron Gainesteam Islam, team christician, are you guys good?
9:30Daniel HaqiqatjouYep.
9:31Myron GainesAlright.
9:32Myron GainesAwesome. So I got five minutes on the clock. I'm gonna go ahead and turn it to team Islam for opening statements.
9:39Myron GainesAnd,
9:41Myron Gainesgive me one second. Let me
9:43Myron Gainesokay.
9:45Myron GainesAlright. Team Islam, you guys ready?
9:48Daniel HaqiqatjouYes. Can you hear me?
9:49Myron GainesYeah. I got you. We got you loud and clear.
9:51Myron GainesI'm assuming, Dan, you're gonna take it first?
9:53Daniel HaqiqatjouYes.
9:54Myron GainesAlright, man. Timer
9:56Myron Gainesis
9:57Myron Gaineson. Go ahead.
9:59Daniel HaqiqatjouIslam
10:03Daniel Haqiqatjouis monotheistic.
10:05Daniel HaqiqatjouThere is only one god. This is known as Tawheed.
10:09Daniel HaqiqatjouChristianity is polytheistic
10:11Daniel Haqiqatjoubecause Christians worship three separate gods known as the Trinity.
10:15Daniel HaqiqatjouChristians claim that this is false. The Trinity is not three separate gods, the Trinity is three in one.
10:22Daniel HaqiqatjouBut does this claim make sense?
10:24Daniel HaqiqatjouFirst of all, there's a logical contradiction in the How can the father, son, and the holy spirit all be one god, but they also not be identical beings?
10:33Daniel HaqiqatjouThe father is god, the son is god, the holy spirit is god. It's all one god, but the father is not the son, the son is not the father,
10:41Daniel Haqiqatjouand neither of them are the holy spirit. This is a logical contradiction.
10:45Daniel HaqiqatjouThe only way to solve the contradiction is to admit that the father, son, and holy spirit are three separate gods, not just one god. This is, of course, polytheism.
10:54Daniel HaqiqatjouAs Muslims, we challenge Sam and Jay to resolve this logical contradiction for the audience. Explain to us how the father, son, and spirit are all one god, but they're not identical with each other, and explain it in a way that the average layperson can understand it. A layperson can understand that god is one. He is one god, and he can have multiple attributes.
11:14Daniel HaqiqatjouThat's Islamic monotheism.
11:16Daniel HaqiqatjouI can explain it in one sentence. Can Sam and Jay explain the trinity without resorting to a bunch of convoluted gobbledygook?
11:23Daniel HaqiqatjouWe'll see. What Sam and Jay want to do is to try to claim that Islam's conception of god is actually just as complicated as the Trinity.
11:31Daniel HaqiqatjouThis is a cheap debate tactic, as we'll see. They can't address the logical problem of the Trinity, so they want to make it seem like we have the same problem in Islam.
11:39Daniel HaqiqatjouBut we don't. There is nothing analogous to the logical problem of the Trinity in Islam.
11:44Daniel HaqiqatjouFor example, they might claim that Allah's attributes in Islam are incoherent.
11:48Daniel HaqiqatjouNo, they're not. We can all understand how a person can have multiple attributes, how God can be all knowing, all powerful, merciful, loving, etc. This is not hard to understand.
11:58Daniel HaqiqatjouThose attributes of God are not separate people with their own minds.
12:02Daniel HaqiqatjouBut according to the Bible, Jesus and the father have separate knowledge. They have separate wills.
12:08Daniel HaqiqatjouFor example, in Mark thirteen thirty two in the Bible, we read, but about that day, I e the day of judgment, no one knows, neither the angels in heaven nor the son, but only the father.
12:18Daniel HaqiqatjouSo the son doesn't know when the day of judgment is, but the father does know. So this indicates two separate minds.
12:25Daniel HaqiqatjouThis is polytheism.
12:26Daniel HaqiqatjouThere are more examples that we can cite in the rebuttal sections, but keep in mind that in the seventh century, the official position of the church in the third council of Constantinople,
12:35Daniel Haqiqatjouthey held the position that Jesus has two wills.
12:39Daniel HaqiqatjouThe church defined Jesus as having two energies and two wills, one divine and one human.
12:43Daniel HaqiqatjouTwo separate wills
12:45Daniel Haqiqatjoumeans two separate minds.
12:47Daniel HaqiqatjouThis means that Jesus and the father have two separate minds and are therefore two separate entities.
12:52Daniel HaqiqatjouYou either explain this by admitting it is polytheism, or you have to give us some convoluted explanation of how two minds or three minds are still one god. There's nothing analogous to this in Islamic theology.
13:04Daniel HaqiqatjouIslam says there's one god. He has knowledge. He has will. One will, one knowledge. These things are not divided between multiple persons or energies or anything like that. And all of this Islamic monotheism is clearly expressed in the Quran, by the way. Contrast this with the Bible. Jesus is meant to be God, all knowing, and the only teacher to the disciples, but the Jesus of gospels doesn't describe the doctrines of the trinity. We have to rely on Paul and the church fathers to explain what the trinity is.
13:30Daniel HaqiqatjouThat's strange. If God wants us to know him, believe in him, lay the foundation for a general understanding of him, why would He leave that to different authors at different times, in different places, over several centuries, such that when God is finally described in Scripture, it results in a mystery, and we need all these church councils to figure it out. The way that Christians have come to us understand the Trinity is what we'd expect if God did not reveal the doctrines of the Trinity. On the other hand, the God in the Quran revealed four short lines that any human being can read and instantly understand who God is and what his attributes are. This is exactly what we would expect from an all knowing, wise, just, merciful, and loving God who cares about His creation.
14:11Daniel HaqiqatjouThe four lines are the hundred and twelfth chapter of the Quran.
14:15Daniel HaqiqatjouSay, He is God, one God, Allah the completely self sufficient, He neither begets nor is born, nor is there to Him any equivalent.
14:24Daniel HaqiqatjouThank you.
14:25Myron GainesAlright, still got roughly thirty seconds on the clock, but I'll end it there.
14:31Myron GainesI will turn it to team
14:33Myron GainesChristianity. We'll put another five minutes on the clock for you guys.
14:36Sam ShamounAnd let me first Jay, you want me to go? You go.
14:39Jay DyerEither way.
14:39Myron GainesGo ahead.
14:40Sam ShamounSup? Okay. Want me to Okay.
14:41Myron GainesTimer's on. Alright.
14:43Sam ShamounPraise be the father, son, holy spirit, the one true God, and glory to the son of god who became flesh for our salvation. May the lord Jesus be magnified
14:51Sam Shamounand the falsehood of Tawheed exposed. Now notice what Daniel did.
14:56Sam ShamounInstead of focusing on what it means for Allah to be one, he spent the bulk of his time criticizing the trinity, but we will answer his objections in a rebuttal period, but I'm now gonna turn against him because not so fast. When he says he believes in Tawheed,
15:11Sam Shamounwhat exactly does it mean for Allah to be one?
15:14Sam ShamounBecause
15:15Sam ShamounI'm aware that Daniel
15:17Sam Shamoundoes believe the fact that the Quran is uncreated.
15:20Sam ShamounAnd therefore,
15:22Sam Shamounwe now have two distinct eternal entities that are not identical. Why? Because I'm going to show Daniel from his authentic sources, Sahih narrations,
15:31Sam Shamounthat the Quran and the chapters of the Quran actually want to recede
15:35Sam Shamounand debate with Allah. So now we have
15:38Sam Shamouna paradox.
15:39Sam ShamounBecause if the Quran is a speech of Allah and that's Allah speaking, is Allah speaking to himself? So is Daniel actually a moblest, or is he apolitheist, or does he have a form of a trinity? But his is even worse because it's not three
15:51Sam Shamounpersons because each chapter of the Quran
15:53Sam Shamounhas a potentiality of speaking with Allah. So that means his god consists of at least a 115
15:58Sam Shamoundivine persons or divine beings who can interact with one another and appear separately, and this is all from his authentic narrations.
16:05Sam ShamounSecondly, the second problem he has is
16:08Sam Shamounthat according to the Quran, the spirit of Allah is not Gabriel. I'm So going to now press him in a rebuttal period to prove otherwise. There's not a single verse in the Quran that says the spirit is
16:19Sam ShamounJibreel.
16:20Sam ShamounHe's now dependent on the very scholars of Islam that come centuries later to bail out Allah and his messenger because that's what he accused the lord Jesus. That Jesus wasn't clear enough to articulate the trinity, but he did make an admission,
16:33Sam Shamounwhich is now going to come and bite him. He admitted Paul taught the trinity. It's now recorded. I want everyone to hear it. Paul taught the Trinity because when we come to the scriptures, I'm gonna show that even the Quran acknowledges that Paul was used by Allah to spread the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ. More to come. The spirit according to the Quran is distinct from Allah. He appears as a man. He speaks and creates. So now if we add the spirit to the Quran and Allah, he's got about a 116 divine persons or beings,
17:00Sam Shamounand he doesn't have a singular person
17:03Sam Shamouncalled Allah.
17:04Sam ShamounThen we can go a little further
17:06Sam Shamounand adjust the issue of the fact
17:09Sam Shamounthat according to our friend here,
17:12Sam Shamounthis is his belief,
17:13Sam ShamounAllah has
17:15Sam Shamounwell, he wouldn't use the term body parts. I don't wanna misrepresent him. Allah has a foot.
17:20Sam ShamounHe has a shin. He even has loins,
17:23Sam Shamounand he has at least two eyes, if not more, and two right hands. Now for the life of me, if Allah is the creator of the heavens and the earth, how does he exist as an embodied being without him dwelling in space?
17:35Sam ShamounBecause if he's atemporal
17:37Sam Shamounand he's timeless, that means his god supposedly exists when there was no time, space, and place. But if you have a foot and you have a shin and you have two right hands, I don't know what happened to the left one, but we'll get into that, two right hands, at least two eyes. In fact, the Arabic says three or more, but we'll get into that.
17:54Sam ShamounThen that means his god is an embodied being
17:57Sam Shamounwho is temporal and finite,
17:59Sam Shamounwhich means that his god did not create all space or place and time because there's a space that his body parts need to occupy
18:06Sam Shamounin order for him to be his god. So the problem is actually worse for Daniel than for us. So he's gonna have to explain how is it that he's a polytheist pagan
18:15Sam Shamounmasquerading
18:17Sam Shamounas a monotheist?
18:18Sam ShamounBecause what he just told you is not anchored in the Quran or the authentic
18:23Sam Shamounsunnah of Muhammad. So good luck in trying to defend your rational
18:27Sam Shamounsalafi anthropomorphism.
18:29Sam ShamounAnd last time I checked, his partner doesn't share his salafi anthropomorphism,
18:33Sam Shamounso we're gonna have a field day. Now how much time do I have?
18:36Myron GainesOne minute to go. One ten.
18:38Sam ShamounHey. You wanna take the last minute? Go ahead, brother.
18:39Jay DyerYeah. I'd like to point out that, in, Daniel's opening statement, he also committed a fallacy, which is a form of, Occam's razor fallacy. He kept appealing to the fact that because it's simple,
18:50Jay Dyerthat it must be obvious. It must be the case. Just because something seems or appears to be simpler or more obvious or because it was only four short and simple sentences has nothing to do with whether it's true or false. In fact, as we're gonna see, the Muslims amongst themselves and their various schools
19:05Jay Dyerall compete and disagree and fight not only over the attributes,
19:09Jay Dyerbut also over jurisprudence.
19:12Myron GainesOkay.
19:14Myron GainesGreat. So just a little bit of time, but, so that concludes opening statements.
19:19Myron GainesObviously, that segues perfectly into our first, thing. What I'll do is do we have any chats to read? Or
19:27Myron Gainesyou know, we'll just go right into the first one, guys. Get your chats in now, and I'll read them after the first round,
19:31Myron Gainesafter opening statements. So
19:33Myron Gainessegues perfectly into round one, which is, theology, trinity versus the Tawheed. I'm gonna turn it back to team,
19:40Myron GainesIslam.
19:41Myron GainesYou guys are gonna I'm gonna put four minutes on the clock for you guys,
19:46Myron Gainesand
19:47Myron Gaineswe will are you guys ready?
19:50Myron GainesAlright.
19:52Myron GainesBills, do have the clock or do you want me to do it here? Yeah,
19:54Myron Gainesfour minutes for this one. Yeah, and from this point forward, it's going be four minutes. So just the opening statements, number five.
20:00Myron GainesSo,
20:01Myron Gainesonce you guys start talking, we'll hit the clock. We'll do that, Bill, to make it easier. Once they start talking, we'll hit the clock.
20:07Ijaz AhmadOkay. I guess I'll go first here. Notice
20:13Ijaz Ahmadthat for this debate, Sam Shamoon had to create a religion,
20:18Ijaz Ahmada mockery, something which does not actually exist
20:21Ijaz Ahmadin order to argue against the Muslims.
20:23Ijaz AhmadNo Muslim believes
20:25Ijaz Ahmadthat Allah is a 115 persons.
20:28Ijaz AhmadNot even the Christians who didn't understand Islam like John of Damascus could come up with something so ridiculous.
20:34Ijaz AhmadBut we will find that this is the case in Christian theology,
20:38Ijaz Ahmadthat God is another being. I mean, I I do believe that the
20:43Ijaz AhmadI I do think that they believe in, what's his name,
20:47Ijaz AhmadJustin Martyr,
20:49Ijaz Ahmadsaying that there's another entity. Of course, I would like to revise that, but that's what he literally says. When it comes to New Testament, Jesus says it's
20:58Ijaz Ahmada person cannot
21:00Ijaz Ahmadhave two masters or rather that he cannot serve two lords. We look at the Jesus of the New Testament, he's at odds with the Christian understanding of the doctrine of the trinity. We can even go a step further than this. For us Muslims, yes, the Quran describes Allah in a simple way, but
21:18Ijaz Ahmadfrom this, we get a comprehensive understanding.
21:21Ijaz AhmadWe say that this is a or
21:24Ijaz Ahmadspeech which is extensive.
21:26Ijaz AhmadYou can ask us almost any question about the nature of Allah, and in those four short passages,
21:31Ijaz Ahmadwe can understand it. To the point that if I were to compare this with the bible, I would not be able to find four verses that simply unreasonably
21:40Ijaz Ahmadexplain the nature of God. If God loved us and cared for us and he was merciful for us, then there's a duty there, a justice where he would want us to understand him. But our Christian colleagues fundamentally
21:54Ijaz Ahmadcannot and do not understand god. I'll give one simple example here. The god of the Quran was able to describe himself as one, absolutely one, meaning nothing.
22:04Ijaz AhmadThe god of the bible allegedly
22:05Ijaz Ahmaddescribes himself as begotten,
22:08Ijaz Ahmada word of which we cannot
22:10Ijaz Ahmadknow and which we know what's actually changed. For those who don't know, the god of the bible, when he says that he's begotten,
22:17Ijaz Ahmadthis comes from the Greek word monogenes.
22:19Ijaz AhmadUnfortunately,
22:20Ijaz Ahmadthat word today is not translated as unique.
22:23Ijaz AhmadSo if you're a Christian, doesn't matter to you that the bible does not teach what you actually believe.
22:29Ijaz AhmadMy friend here, Sam, actually teaches that if a thing, an ideal belief, cannot stand being tested by the bible,
22:36Ijaz Ahmadthen it is false. So I would like to ask him, where is the belief that Jesus has begotten using the Greek of the New Testament? Brother Daniel.
22:45Daniel HaqiqatjouYeah. I just want to say that they did exactly what I predicted in the opening statement. They wouldn't address the trinity at all and the clear logical contradiction of the trinity that everyone is aware of. They had to bring up these unrelated issues like the uncreativeness of the Quran or that God Allah has, hands, for example.
23:04Daniel HaqiqatjouThis has nothing to do with monotheism.
23:06Daniel HaqiqatjouMaybe they don't understand what Tawheed means. Tawheed means one God, it means monotheism.
23:11Daniel HaqiqatjouAnd this is the claim that we're making, that polytheism
23:13Daniel Haqiqatjouis the Trinity. The Trinity is polytheism.
23:16Daniel HaqiqatjouSo, tell me how, I want them to explain, since their whole opening statement was bringing up the issue of the uncreativeness
23:23Daniel Haqiqatjouof the Qur'an,
23:24Daniel Haqiqatjouand the hand of Allah, how does that contradict
23:28Daniel Haqiqatjoumonotheism?
23:29Daniel HaqiqatjouHow does God having a hand, however you want to explain that hand, it has nothing to do, by the way, with salafi or the other theological schools of calam and Islam.
23:39Myron Gaines30.
23:39Daniel HaqiqatjouAll of the schools are united on this, all Muslims are united on this. God having a hand does not mean that the hand has its own mind, that the hand is its own entity, its own god, its own person.
23:51Daniel HaqiqatjouNo theologian has ever said that. There's no,
23:55Daniel Haqiqatjouchallenge to monotheism
23:57Daniel Haqiqatjouof Islam by bringing up the hand or the Quran or anything like that. Shin. Or the Shin, yeah. And again,
24:05Daniel Haqiqatjouyou just said perfectly,
24:06Daniel Haqiqatjoua 115
24:08Daniel Haqiqatjougods, like separate gods with minds. The Quran doesn't have its own mind.
24:11Myron GainesThat is time. Okay.
24:14Myron GainesWill turn it
24:14Jay Dyerover to
24:15Myron Gainesteam
24:16Myron GainesChristianity
24:17Myron Gaineshere. This is the bottom of the first round here.
24:21Myron GainesYou you
24:22Myron GainesBills, do we got the timer for them? Four minutes again on the clock?
24:25Myron GainesAnd when you guys start speaking, we'll we'll start the clock once you start speaking. Do you you're
24:29Sam Shamoungonna ask some questions, Sam?
24:31Sam ShamounJay, do you wanna go, or you want me to go?
24:33Jay DyerLet me have a one or two minutes, and I'll I'll talk to you. So
24:37Jay DyerI do I do want to address what Daniel said because, of course, he misstated several things about what our position is. First of all, the argument about attributes was not that you believe that they're persons. Sam was making an analogy to show that you have the exact same problem in your position, and you have a double standard when you try to say that we have to solve this Tridentine dilemma. It's a contradiction. But your view of the attributes
25:00Jay Dyeris not subject to that that problem. That's just a double standard. What's the point? Nobody said that you believe that the attributes are person, so that's a misdirection.
25:07Jay DyerFirst of all, didn't Haqiqatjou already admit that Paul talked to Trinity? And I think Ajaz
25:12Jay Dyerdisagreed with that. So which one is it? Did Paul teach the trinity or did he not? And then I would also add that,
25:19Jay DyerChrist does not have a human person, and that's why the the notion about divine mind
25:25Jay Dyeris a two minds scenario where he shares a divine mind with the father, and he has limitations in his human mind. That's why it's two minds. So you tried to say that he had one mind, and it was separate knowledge.
25:35Jay DyerThe expression where he says that he's limited in knowledge is a reference to rhetoric. And if you can read Saint Basil letter two thirty four five and six, he talks about these issues and explains that just as
25:46Jay DyerJesus says in other places that there's no one good but god. He's not literally saying that there's no one else good because in other pastures, he calls himself good. He calls the holy spirit good as well, and so it's a feature of rhetoric. You have the same types of expressions in your own, chronic,
26:01Jay Dyerexegesis where you try to solve these dilemmas,
26:04Jay Dyerbut you don't want us to have that right. Sam, I'll throw it to you.
26:07Sam ShamounYeah. Notice how Daniel conveniently wants to evade what the topic is. The topic is Trinity versus Tawheed, but I know he can't defend Tawheed because it's irrational.
26:16Sam ShamounSo he just wants to attack the Trinity thinking that Tawheed wins by default. Daniel, you're the one who set up the topic, trinity versus Tawheed. You didn't wanna do it separately, so stop whining about it. Now coming back to the issue, maybe you didn't hear what I said.
26:29Sam ShamounThe Quran must have a mind independent from your god if the Quran is going to argue with your god and the individual individual chapters here. Sahih Muslim, book four, number seventeen fifty seven. Abu Mama said he heard all his messengers say, recite the Quran for on the day of resurrection.
26:44Sam ShamounIt will come as an intercessor for those who recite it. How does the speech of Allah intercede with Allah if it's a speech of Allah? Is Allah speaking to himself in a different mode? Then you are a modalist,
26:55Sam Shamounso your Tawheed is modalism. But then it gets worse for you. Recite the two bright ones, and
27:00Sam ShamounSurat Imran, chapters two and three. On the day of resurrection, they will come as two clouds or two shades or two flocks of birds and ranks, pleading for those who recite them. Pleading with who? With themselves?
27:09Sam ShamounIf the servants of the Quran can appear independently,
27:12Sam Shamounseparately,
27:13Sam Shamounand appear in visible form and argue with Allah, that's either your god being schizophrenic arguing with himself in different modes, so you're modalist,
27:20Sam Shamounor you have now separate gods argue with one another, so you're a polytheist, or you have to believe that Tawheed encompasses a plurality of distinct entities who can then interact and argue with one another. So don't run and evade with your smoke and mirror tactics. Deal with the issue. You didn't understand what I meant about your your god's body parts, even though you don't like to use the term body parts. And, no, not all the Sunnis define the hand of Allah as meaning
27:46Sam Shamounwhat you mean because you have those that say that it's a metaphor for his power. You do not believe this. So I'm still trying to figure out, do you believe in a finite God who assumes time and space? Because if he has a hand,
27:59Sam Shamountwo right hands, what happened to his left? Maybe you can explain. He has a shin. He has loins.
28:05Sam ShamounThat means he's an embodied being. If he's an embodied being, he requires space unless you wanna con create another contradiction with your irrational sola fi anthropomorphism.
28:16Myron GainesStill twenty on the clock. Okay.
28:17Sam ShamounOh, sorry. Yeah. I don't know because I'm trying to sweep past making time. So, yeah, Daniel, remember what the topic is. I know maybe sometimes
28:24Sam Shamounbeing a little intimidated,
28:26Sam Shamounyou forget. Trinity versus Tawheed.
28:28Myron GainesTen seconds.
28:28Sam ShamounFrom shouldering the burden of perf proof.
28:32Myron GainesAlright.
28:34Myron GainesSo I will turn it back. That completes, round one on,
28:38Myron Gaineswell, yeah, the first set of rounds. We're gonna go into round two of this.
28:42Myron GainesFor I'm gonna turn it back to team Islam here,
28:46Myron Gainesagain, with,
28:47Myron GainesTawheed versus the Trinity.
28:49Myron GainesDaniel, I'll turn it back to you or Eph,
28:52Myron Gaineseither
28:53Myron Gainesone of you that wants to take it for four minutes on the clock.
28:56Ijaz AhmadYeah, I'll take this. This
28:58Ijaz Ahmadis quite simple.
29:00Ijaz AhmadHow is it possible that they don't understand that the Quran also uses rhetoric?
29:05Ijaz AhmadIn fact, in the Quran, Allah says he uses examples of every kind. So it's not that hard to understand it. But there is a problem here for Jay because Jay seems to think that in Mark thirteen thirty two, this is simple rhetoric. Unfortunately, the scribes of the bible, they don't see it that way, which is why they had to repeatedly change this word over several centuries.
29:25Ijaz AhmadThey clearly saw a problem with it. If there was no problem, why did the scribes change it? Unfortunately, the scribes factually disagree with you. I'm sorry, but someone later like Saint Bezal trying to allegorize it is not going to solve the physical problem of your scribes change in the bible. Secondly,
29:44Ijaz AhmadSam seems to not understand basic Islam. He begins by asking what is Tawheed?
29:48Ijaz AhmadGood question. Let me teach you. Allah is absolutely one. Allah has distinct attributes,
29:54Ijaz Ahmadand Allah does not mean anything. He's not multiple persons. He doesn't rely on anyone or anything other than himself. He is beginningless
30:03Ijaz Ahmadand and endless. Meaning, he's the first and the last. If I were to ask
30:08Ijaz Ahmadthe god of the bible, is he the first and the last? We know that very recently,
30:13Ijaz Ahmadscholars at the ECM
30:14Ijaz Ahmadhave decided that god the father in Revelation twenty one six actually became the first and the last. That's a problem for the trinity. Do you believe that God had to become the first and the last? Who made him the first and the last? For us, that just seems unreasonable nonsense.
30:29Ijaz AhmadDaniel?
30:31Daniel HaqiqatjouYeah. So Sam wants to make a big deal about the Quran
30:36Daniel Haqiqatjouspeaking.
30:38Daniel HaqiqatjouSo he read that hadith.
30:41Daniel HaqiqatjouSam is not familiar with the Quran. So in chapter 36 verse 65, we read in the Quran, on that day, we shall seal up their mouths,
30:49Daniel Haqiqatjoubut their hands will speak to us, and their feet bear witness to everything they have done.
30:54Daniel HaqiqatjouDoes that mean that our hands and feet have minds?
30:58Daniel HaqiqatjouDid any Muslim in history ever interpret that verse that the hands and feet of our own bodies have minds?
31:05Daniel HaqiqatjouYet they will speak for or against us on the day of judgment.
31:09Daniel HaqiqatjouSo this is
31:10Daniel Haqiqatjouan interpretation that he has that no one has ever made in the history of Islam.
31:15Daniel HaqiqatjouBut many Christians and theologians and church fathers have debated and discussed
31:21Daniel Haqiqatjouthe knowledge of the of Jesus being different from the knowledge of the father and the will of Jesus being different from the, will of the father.
31:30Daniel HaqiqatjouJesus has a separate human will, and this is what they will not explain.
31:36Daniel HaqiqatjouAlso
31:37Daniel Haqiqatjouso,
31:38Daniel Haqiqatjouyeah, explain
31:40Daniel Haqiqatjouthat problem,
31:41Daniel Haqiqatjouthat contradiction.
31:42Daniel HaqiqatjouGod having a hand, guess what? That's a problem for,
31:46Daniel Haqiqatjouthe trinity as well because the New Testament in Acts seven fifty five
31:51Daniel Haqiqatjoudescribes Jesus as standing at the right hand of the father.
31:56Daniel HaqiqatjouSo what is the right hand of the father?
31:58Daniel HaqiqatjouIs that in space? Does the father have a body? Can you explain that? What is the hand, the right hand of the father? Does he have a left hand? Does the father have a body? Like, does the father have two sides?
32:11Daniel HaqiqatjouExplain that verse within Acts,
32:14Daniel Haqiqatjouand, that's in the New Testament. So I'm very interested to understand
32:18Daniel Haqiqatjouif this is a corporeal physical
32:20Daniel Haqiqatjoufather or not, or what does the bible mean? Do we have an explanation of that? So this it doesn't matter if you take the hand of god to be metaphorical,
32:29Daniel Haqiqatjouif you take it to be,
32:31Daniel Haqiqatjoumeaning without modality.
32:33Daniel HaqiqatjouThat doesn't contradict Tawheed. It doesn't contradict monotheism.
32:36Daniel HaqiqatjouExplain how having a hand, god having a hand, means that it's not monotheism.
32:41Daniel HaqiqatjouThat's what you can't do.
32:45Daniel HaqiqatjouJay, do
32:45Sam Shamounyou wanna go? You want me to go?
32:47Daniel HaqiqatjouGo ahead. Wait. Do I it's my hard time. Okay.
32:49Ijaz AhmadTen seconds. Yeah.
32:50Myron GainesBecause you have ten seconds, but it's dwindling down now.
32:54Sam ShamounOkay. Yeah. Hey. Do you want do you want me to let me just ask Jay, though, because we don't you want me to split the time with you? Want me to take the four minutes?
33:01Jay DyerI've got I need about one or two minutes. You can go ahead.
33:03Sam ShamounWhy don't you go with your one, two minutes? So before
33:05Myron Gainesyou guys go, Dan, did you get everything out that you needed to get there? Because I think there might have been a confusion on the time.
33:11Daniel HaqiqatjouYeah. I got everything out. Thanks.
33:12Myron GainesOkay. Alright. Cool. Just wanna make sure it's all good. Alright. Jay, you're gonna kick it off on this one?
33:16Jay DyerRight. So Okay. Going back to the text about
33:20Jay Dyergo Brady?
33:22Myron GainesYeah. Yeah. Go ahead.
33:23Jay DyerGoing back to the text about, the limitation of Jesus' knowledge. He said the scribes changed it.
33:28Jay DyerIf the scribes changed it, why is it still in the text talking about the
33:32Jay Dyerexaggeration of the limitation of his knowledge? When I said exaggeration or rhetoric, I didn't say allegory. So I don't think knows the difference between
33:41Jay Dyerthe grammatical terms of exaggeration and allegory. I did not say it's an allegory. Similar to other passages where Jesus talks about straining a gnat, swallowing camels, this is called it's called exaggeration.
33:53Jay DyerAnd so in the same way, he can say, no one is good but God. Okay. Nobody believes that that literally means that there's literally no one good. Like, the prophets weren't good. Jesus isn't good. The spirit isn't good. He's talking about no one is good but god the father in a specific sense of god being the father being the archae, the principal, the fountain, and the cause. The last thing I'll say is that we're not subject to the same problems as you guys, well, particularly Daniel, because we don't have the anthropomorphic
34:19Jay Dyererror about god the father. So what we believe about the mode of the sun coming into time and space, you have that same issue with Allah himself. You're saying that Allah has these parts, which you say are attributes. And by the way, don't you two disagree
34:34Jay Dyeron the status of those attributes between yourselves?
34:37Jay DyerYep. Go ahead, Sam.
34:38Sam ShamounYeah. Let me piggyback off of what he just said. Now
34:42Sam Shamounhe was talking about that the Quran talks about hands and hand speaking, they don't have minds. How do you know that? Where did the text tell you that? Notice his appeal to authority. He says, well, no Muslim scholar. Yes. I know you live in denial, just like you live in denial that your pagans and polytheists
34:57Sam Shamounfor a variety of issues, especially kissing the black stone. It doesn't matter what your scholars say. It's what you can prove. So prove to me that when hands and feet are speak, they're mindless. So now let's take your analogy with the Quran. So mindless Quran will be engaging Allah.
35:11Sam ShamounSo you're gonna have the Quran engaging with Allah even though it doesn't have a mind of its own. So now we're back to square one. If the Quran is a speech of Allah, how does Allah's speech speak to himself? Is Allah speaking to himself but in a different mode? You didn't answer that dilemma. Now coming back to the issue of god in the right hand.
35:28Sam ShamounUnlike you,
35:31Sam Shamounaccording to the scriptures, unlike your position as a selfie anthropomorphist,
35:36Sam Shamounthe Bible says god is spirit. So I'm gonna challenge you to show me in your Quran and where it says your Allah is spirit. And in the context of John four twenty four, god is spirit, meaning that he is bodiless and corporeal
35:46Sam Shamounbecause he's the creator of heavens and earth, but that god can appear visibly.
35:51Sam ShamounGod the father appears visibly in heaven. That's Daniel seven nine verses 10. Chapter seven verse nine to 10. Revelation chapter four. So when it says that Jesus and his glorified physical body enters
36:02Sam Shamounthis heavenly realm where angels dwell,
36:05Sam Shamounheaven itself is created, and God can manifest in heaven and Jesus physically
36:10Sam Shamounbeing seen by the inhabitants of heaven, sitting at the right hand of the father who appears visibly. But you don't believe that about the body parts of your god. You're not like.
36:21Sam ShamounYou believe your god has two right hands. Where's the left one? I'm still waiting for the answer. He has loins.
36:27Sam ShamounHe has a shin, and he's gonna put his foot over hell. And then you have the womb yanking on his loins. That's inside Bukhari. How many seconds, Joanna?
36:35Myron GainesYou got fifty seconds. You're good. Keep going. Fifty? Fifty seconds. Yep.
36:39Sam ShamounSo now come back and address
36:42Sam Shamounyour polytheistic
36:43Sam Shamounpagan beliefs.
36:45Sam ShamounSince the chapters of the Quran can appear separately
36:49Sam Shamounin visible form and they are interceding with Allah, they're disputing with Allah, How if the Quran is the speech of Allah? Tawheed?
36:57Myron GainesNo. No. 30. 30. I'm just saying 30.
37:00Sam ShamounHow is the how is the Quran how are the individual surahs of the Quran disputing with Allah? According to you, no one thinks they have a mind. So mindless surahs
37:10Sam Shamounhave the mind enough to know who
37:13Sam Shamounrecites them,
37:14Sam Shamounwho to defend and argue on behalf of, and argue with Allah when this is supposedly speech of Allah? So is your Allah speaking to himself, Schizophrenic deity? Anyway, think my time is up. Go ahead.
37:24Myron GainesOkay. That is that is time now.
37:28Myron GainesSo we're gonna go into
37:30Myron Gainesround three now. This is the final round of
37:33Myron GainesTawheed versus Trinity. This is the top of the last round.
37:36Myron GainesFour minutes on the clock. I'll turn it to team Islam here. Whenever you guys go, we'll start the timer.
37:45Daniel HaqiqatjouYou guys, do wanna go?
37:47Ijaz AhmadYep. This is quite easy. So none of these points are defeat us for Islam nor do they change or attack what Muslims actually believe. Notice the straw men that they have to create. They have to think that these are parts of Allah. Even some admitted you don't use this language. So if we don't use that language, we don't describe it that way, we don't teach it that way, why is your opinion of how you read it in a very Christian way, I would say? It's only natural for you to create different persons for God. That's the very definition of schizophrenia.
38:16Ijaz AhmadLet's get something straight here. Jay is incorrect. He made the statement, well, if it's still there in the bible from Mark thirteen thirty two that Jesus does not know the day or the hour,
38:27Ijaz Ahmadhow does that mean that the scribes changed it? Yes. The scribes actually changed the meaning of the term. And what, the the academics have gone and done is translate,
38:36Ijaz Ahmadand they've tried to fix and adjust what the verse means because it occurs twice in the bible. And in two places where Jesus has no knowledge of the day or the hour described, try to amend it. There is no textual critic alive today who will not testify to that. So I put it back to g. Let's look at the manuscripts. Sam says that your manuscripts
38:56Ijaz Ahmadare from the fourth century, and he says that there are a problem because the,
39:01Ijaz Ahmadthe further they go back, the more that they disagree.
39:04Ijaz AhmadAnd this refers to codex,
39:07Ijaz Ahmadvaticanus,
39:08Ijaz AhmadAlexandrinus,
39:10Ijaz Ahmadetcetera.
39:10Ijaz AhmadHe says that it's a problem. So, Joe, please address the problem.
39:14Ijaz AhmadPlease answer how God can be ignorant.
39:17Ijaz AhmadPlease answer how God can not know things. That is a God who is fundamentally agile. Lastly, on this point
39:24Ijaz Ahmadof Allah having parts, Muslims do not believe that. Muslims do not see as well that when the day of judgment comes and things testify, parts testify that this mean that they are the mind of Allah. No one says that. Daniel?
39:38Daniel HaqiqatjouYes. There's a lot to say here. They keep saying that I'm and
39:43Daniel HaqiqatjouMe and are on the same page on all of these issues. You don't have to be a particular
39:48Daniel Haqiqatjouschool of Islamic thought to defend Tawheed.
39:51Daniel HaqiqatjouSo you keep projecting this onto us because you have no way to respond to our argument.
39:57Daniel HaqiqatjouAnd it's interesting that you're bringing up sects because
40:00Daniel HaqiqatjouJay here has claimed that Catholics are modalists, that they're heretics,
40:04Daniel Haqiqatjouand that basically they are deviant. So what does Jay have to say about Catholics?
40:09Daniel HaqiqatjouHe thinks that you're a deviant and a heretic, Sam, and maybe that you're going to hell. So did you clarify that with, Jay before he even agreed to this debate?
40:18Daniel HaqiqatjouSecond of all, for Sam, look at what Luke nineteen forty says. I tell you, he replied, if they keep quiet, the stones will cry out. Stones will cry out according to the New Testament. Do the stones have minds?
40:29Daniel HaqiqatjouIsaiah fifty five twelve, you will go out in joy and be led forth in peace. The mountains and the hills will burst into song before you, and all the trees of the field will clap their hands. Is that does that mean that the hills and the trees have minds?
40:43Daniel HaqiqatjouSam, explain that. Or how about Psalm
40:45Daniel Haqiqatjouninety eight eight?
40:46Daniel HaqiqatjouLet the rivers clap their hands. Let the mountains sing together for joy. Does that mean that the rivers have hands and they're clapping for joy? Do they have minds?
40:55Daniel HaqiqatjouSam, please explain all of those verses. You want to have that kind of understanding
41:00Daniel Haqiqatjouof mountains, rivers, and whatever, and you say that you'll say that these are not minds. But the problem with the trinity is that Jesus has a separate mind than the father. The father has a separate mind from Jesus.
41:12Daniel HaqiqatjouThey both have a separate mind from the holy spirit. That means they're three separate entities,
41:17Daniel Haqiqatjouand therefore, three separate gods. This is polytheism.
41:20Daniel HaqiqatjouWe don't have that problem in Islam. The Quran doesn't have its own mind. There's no one who ever has thought the Quran has its own mind that is separate from god. But this is what you're trying to claim. Not based on any text, not based on any hadith. This is just your,
41:37Daniel Haqiqatjouassertion based on nothing. So address the trinity. Why can't you address the trinity? You have to raise these straw men against Islam. It sounds kind of ridiculous, frankly.
41:48Sam ShamounJay, do you want me to take it?
41:50Myron GainesYou guys Hello, Lennie. Muslims, you guys are done? You've only got one forty two left. You still got one forty two that that that that concludes.
41:55Daniel HaqiqatjouSo I just wanna emphasize that they did not address the trinity at all. We addressed all of their complaints against the Quran, against monotheism,
42:05Daniel Haqiqatjouagainst Tawheed. They haven't even started to defend the trinity. So this is a fail, a big fail. And Sam is proof for Christians. Okay. Go ahead.
42:13Ijaz AhmadYeah. Could I point out as well? They didn't address the problem of Jesus'
42:17Ijaz Ahmadstatus has been begotten
42:19Ijaz Ahmadbeing changed in the actual text.
42:21Ijaz AhmadOkay. Seems to be missing the point that Sam admitted was a problem. Sam says that the manuscripts from the fourth century are a problem. He says catechus
42:31Ijaz AhmadWell, how about this
42:31Myron Gaineshow about this
42:32Ijaz Ahmadreal quick?
42:32Myron GainesBecause Because
42:33Ijaz Ahmadit's filled with errors and heresies.
42:35Myron GainesReal quick.
42:35Ijaz AhmadWhy doesn't he defend that? Does G. A. G. Agreement
42:37Myron GainesThis do. This This will do. Since you guys still have some time on the clock, and it seems like this is you guys kinda wanna have a little bit of a dialogue here. If you guys want, I'm gonna have team Christianity go right now. I'm gonna give them their full four minutes. And then what we could do is if you guys want, I could put another three or four minutes on the clock where we'll finish off this round with Tawheed versus Trinity,
42:57Myron Gaineswhere you guys have open dialogue with each other, and I could put four or five minutes on the
43:00Sam Shamounbetter than I can corner them. They can't run. That'll be
43:02Myron Gainesgreat. So that's what I'll do. So I'll give you four minutes on the clock. Are you or well, team Islam, are you guys okay with that? Do you guys want that? Because it seems like there you guys want open dialogue here.
43:10Sam ShamounYeah. That's what we want.
43:11Myron GainesYou guys what you want? Okay. Cool. So team team, give the people what they want. This is what you guys want. Awesome. So team Christian will put four minutes on the clock for you guys. And then after this, we'll do
43:21Myron Gaineseither three between three to five minutes, whatever you guys decide, on just open dialogue between the four of you.
43:26Myron GainesSo I'll put four minutes on the clock here. Whenever you guys are ready, go ahead and we'll start the clock.
43:32Sam ShamounGo ahead, Jay. You wanna go first, Roy?
43:34Jay DyerYeah. So, again, Jesus doesn't have a separate divine mind. He shares the same divine mind as the father. And when he assumed human nature, he assumed a human mind. That's part of the fullness of human nature.
43:46Jay DyerSo we don't say that he's separate just like the persons of the trinity are distinct but not separate. Just like you believe attributes
43:54Jay Dyerare distinct, not separate. Now I know that you can't seem to follow the fact that we're not saying you believe the attributes actually have minds. We're just pointing out that you have the same metaphysical
44:04Jay Dyerproblem,
44:05Jay Dyerthat you have a double standard
44:07Jay Dyerfor saying, I'm not liable to explain that. You have to explain it. And then when we bring that up, every one of your responses on that is a two quote way. Well, doesn't the bible talk about body parts? Doesn't the bible yeah. But we don't have the same metaphysical problems as you because we don't have the same metaphysics.
44:23Jay DyerSo but you don't you don't seem to be able to follow that. So that's a two quote way. But
44:28Jay Dyerother than that, the other thing I would just reply to is that Ejou's kept saying that all of the scholars in the world believe this. There's not a single one that would disagree. Has he read all of the scholars? He asserted all of these things. He says the scribes changed it, yet it's still there in the text.
44:43Jay DyerSo he's just asserting these things. We don't know who where he's where this is coming from. These are all assertions. Go ahead, sir.
44:49Sam ShamounYeah. We will get into scripture authenticity in the second part, but he wants to change the topic because it's too hot for him. And in the second part, he just proved Muhammad is a false prophet, and he is, but for other reasons. But let me come and address. Guys, you see how desperate Daniel is? And he's talking about we're evading the topic. Read Luke nineteen three to 40. Let me show you the context since my time is fleeting. There, Jesus is being praised by children, and the scholars are saying, rebuke them. He goes, well, if they were silent, even the stones will cry out. Anyone with any common sense. But understand, it's hard for them to read a text in its literary context.
45:21Sam ShamounHe's using hyperbole that even if they don't praise me, creation will praise me. That's exactly the context of the Psalms. The psalmist, which is poetic literature, is personifying creation to show that all creation
45:34Sam Shamounglorifies God because creation is a testimony
45:37Sam Shamounto the greatness and existence of God. Nice try
45:40Sam Shamounwith that false analogy. But I want him now, when I engage you, I'm gonna ask you. So are you saying to me
45:47Sam Shamounthat when the hadith, not your Quran, says that the surahs will intercede with Allah? That's not literal.
45:54Sam ShamounAre you saying to me when the Quran will intercede with Allah? That's not literal. I hope you say that. And on top of that, what do you do with the hadith where it says, the trees greeted your prophet, stones greeted your prophet, and at the last day, a stone will cry out saying, hey. There's a Yahud behind me. Come and kill him. Are you going to allegorize those statements, Daniel Haqiqatjou?
46:15Sam ShamounI hope not because I'm gonna have a field day at your expense. And what are you gonna do with chapter 47 verse 22
46:21Sam Shamounof the Quran? When you go to Bukhari,
46:24Sam Shamounyour prophet says there's a primordial rachem womb
46:28Sam Shamounthat yanked on your god's gonads.
46:31Sam ShamounAnd he said, stop. Stop.
46:33Sam ShamounAre you gonna allegorize that too?
46:36Sam ShamounThe fact that your god has loins?
46:38Sam ShamounThe fact that there is a womb yanking on his gonads,
46:43Sam Shamounwhich is actually in Bukhari,
46:45Sam Shamouncited even in Emikithyr.
46:47Sam ShamounYou're comparing apples and pineapples because the debate is over. You can't defend. You're irrational,
46:52Sam Shamounincoherent,
46:54Sam ShamounAnd, yes, I know you don't wanna say the hand
46:58Sam Shamounis literal in the sense that it's a hand like my hand. But I wanna hear you from your own mouth, Daniel. Are you telling me that Allah's hand is a metaphor for power? I wanna hear it. Are you gonna say?
47:10Sam ShamounIt's a hand. We know it's a hand. It's unlike anything.
47:14Sam ShamounWe don't know how, but it's a hand. Because your god is not the true god. Your god is the figment of Muhammad's imagination. How much time I have?
47:22Myron GainesFifteen, thirteen seconds. So
47:24Sam Shamounnow an interaction. Get ready, boys. I know you wanna change the subject. We're gonna see how you're gonna address these issues, so let's go.
47:30Myron GainesAlright.
47:32Myron GainesOkay. So, do you guys want three minutes, four minutes, or five minutes for open dialogue between the four of you?
47:39Myron GainesFive minutes?
47:40Myron GainesOkay.
47:41Myron GainesCan we put five minutes on the clock, please, Bills?
47:44Myron GainesSo
47:45Myron Gaineswhat we're gonna do here, guys, is we're gonna have it just open dialogue. We're on the topic of trinity versus Tawheed, and then we're gonna go into scripture next in authenticity for the next round.
47:55Myron GainesAlright. So I will go ahead who wants to kick it off first, I guess?
47:59Sam ShamounWho wants to do that? Jay or me or
48:02Myron GainesOr team as well.
48:03Jay DyerWell, it's I mean, the the the the textual stuff is round two. Don't know why he just put the whole Yeah.
48:07Sam ShamounNo. Because he can't deal with the panel. Because
48:09Jay DyerBut you go ahead.
48:10Ijaz AhmadThe bible the bible that's
48:12Ijaz Ahmadwhat I'm the bible doesn't
48:14Daniel Haqiqatjouchange your beliefs.
48:14Ijaz AhmadOh, well, yes. Because the bible affects your beliefs.
48:16Myron GainesOkay. Okay.
48:17Ijaz AhmadSo Your beliefs now
48:18Daniel HaqiqatjouI wanna know. You guys wanna know it.
48:19Sam ShamounHold on.
48:19Daniel HaqiqatjouHold on. Hold
48:22Myron Gaineson. What I'm gonna do is I'll just have someone who wants to kick off the first question of this open dialogue, and I'm gonna start the timer. Who wants to do
48:28Daniel Haqiqatjouit? Yeah.
48:30Myron GainesNobody?
48:31Sam ShamounYeah. Okay. Well, let me no. I'll do it. You go. Okay.
48:33Myron GainesDaniel? Sam, I'm gonna turn the clock on once you go. And then this open dialogue between the four of you. Guys, try please not to interrupt each other so they can hear you because of Zoom. So they really won't be able to hear you if you guys interrupt each other. So, go ahead, Sam. I'll kick it off with you. Go ahead.
48:45Sam ShamounYeah. Daniel, I wanna hear from your own mouth.
48:48Sam ShamounThe of Allah. Is it a metaphor for his power?
48:52Daniel HaqiqatjouIt can be a metaphor for his power. It can be,
48:55Daniel Haqiqatjouinterpreted in many different ways. It does not contradict it does not contradict Tawheed. It does not contradict monotheism.
49:01Sam ShamounYes. It does.
49:01Daniel HaqiqatjouYou can have an Ashari position and interpret it as a metaphor, or you can have a Salafi, Athari position and interpret it differently. That explain to me how it contradicts.
49:10Sam ShamounOkay. Can
49:11Myron Gainesyou So
49:11Ijaz Ahmadhe can you can
49:12Daniel Haqiqatjouyou explain to me? I answered your question. No. You How how does a hand how does god having hand however it's interpreted,
49:19Daniel Haqiqatjoucontradicts
49:20Daniel Haqiqatjoumonotheism.
49:20Sam ShamounCan can you explain this? I can
49:22Daniel HaqiqatjouHow how does how does having a hand how does a hand contradict
49:26Daniel Haqiqatjouto me monotheism?
49:28Myron GainesLet me
49:28Daniel Haqiqatjouget to the point. Explain it. No. You asked me a question. It's open dialogue. You asked me a question, and I answered you.
49:33Sam ShamounNow answer my question. Are you asking
49:35Daniel Haqiqatjoume your question. I answered your question. Now you answer my
49:38Sam Shamounquestion. What's
49:39Sam Shamounyour position?
49:40Daniel HaqiqatjouWhat's
49:41Sam ShamounWhat do
49:41Daniel Haqiqatjouyou believe
49:42Daniel HaqiqatjouSaudi
49:43Daniel HaqiqatjouAthari Islam. I'm sorry. Ashari Islam.
49:45Jay DyerYou've studied it, but you won't say your position.
49:47Sam ShamounWhat are you what you thinking?
49:49Daniel HaqiqatjouAll of them. It's irrelevant
49:50Jay Dyerto this debate. Stick to your topics.
49:53Jay DyerOkay. Your position already.
49:54Jay DyerThose.
49:55Daniel HaqiqatjouStick to the topic. Stick to the topic. What topic explain to me so moderator moderator. He doesn't let me answer the question.
50:02Sam ShamounBecause this guy
50:03Daniel HaqiqatjouHe doesn't let me answer any question.
50:04Sam ShamounNo. Because you're not. You're you're doing a dodgeball.
50:06Ijaz AhmadNow let me answer have to like on
50:08Daniel Haqiqatjouthe answer. This not you don't have to like my answer. This is not interrogation. This is not cross examination.
50:14Daniel HaqiqatjouYou already asked me one question. Let me ask you a question now.
50:17Sam ShamounOkay.
50:18Daniel HaqiqatjouJay, is Catholicism
50:20Daniel Haqiqatjoumodalism?
50:21Daniel HaqiqatjouIs it a heresy?
50:22Daniel HaqiqatjouYes or no?
50:23Jay DyerIt can lead to that if they're consistent with it. Yes.
50:27Daniel HaqiqatjouNo. No. Is it is it or not?
50:30Jay DyerWell, it's a false either or because not everybody who's wrong is necessarily a heretic. They're not necessarily formal heretics.
50:36Jay DyerYou can have a material heresy.
50:38Daniel HaqiqatjouSo the Catholic position
50:40Sam ShamounOkay. Now
50:40Daniel Haqiqatjouit a heresy or not?
50:42Jay DyerIt depends on the person whether they're hardened in that heresy.
50:45Daniel HaqiqatjouNo. No. It doesn't depend on a person. There's a You're
50:47Jay Dyerasking me
50:48Jay Dyermy position. Yeah. I'm telling the doctrine. I'm telling you my position. You know, gotta tell you what my position is. Hey.
50:54Sam ShamounLet me help you.
50:54Daniel HaqiqatjouThe Catholic doctrine is Muslim.
50:55Sam ShamounDon't let him filibuster because he wants to get the Now let me ask you the question because I know that's what we're trying to do
51:00Ijaz Ahmadfor him.
51:00Daniel HaqiqatjouWhat do you think about that? Jay just called your church a heretic
51:03Sam ShamounI'm a heretic. I deserve help. Jay, pray for me and ask the intercession of the saints. Now let's come back to the Quran.
51:09Daniel HaqiqatjouSo it's ironic that you're trying to pit me against ask the question. You just being scared.
51:13Ijaz AhmadWhen you and him disbelieved in the same thing.
51:16Daniel HaqiqatjouDon't believe in the same god. You and Jay don't believe in the same god. That's the what
51:20Jay Dyerthe point that we're trying
51:21Daniel Haqiqatjouto make.
51:21Jay DyerNo. I mean
51:21Daniel HaqiqatjouModerator, you're gonna have to a better job because he's a material and lot of
51:25Myron GainesAnd I'm I'm trying to have it you know? How about this? Can you let Sam ask this question, Dan, please?
51:30Daniel HaqiqatjouGo ahead. I know
51:31Sam Shamounyou're scared, Daniel. Take it easy. Alright. Now your Quran your can you let me make my comment do it?
51:37Ijaz AhmadWell, Nicaea will comment rather than insults.
51:39Sam ShamounWait a minute. Your Quran. You'll never get to me. Here we go again.
51:43Myron GainesAlright. I'm gonna add thirty seconds to
51:44Sam Shamounthe call. Created. Right, Daniel?
51:47Daniel HaqiqatjouYes.
51:47Sam ShamounOkay. So the hadiths that I cited,
51:50Sam Shamounwhen it says surat al Baqar, surat al amran, will appear as flocks of birds interceding for those
51:56Sam Shamounthat recited
51:57Sam Shamounthem. Do you take that metaphorically, or do you take it actually?
52:00Daniel HaqiqatjouThis is a personification
52:02Daniel Haqiqatjouof the Quran just like the bible verses that I mentioned about rivers clapping their hands, their stones speaking.
52:10Daniel HaqiqatjouIn the Psalms, I'll read them again in
52:11Sam ShamounLuke. The Psalm. Hadith. Yeah. So it's a person.
52:14Daniel HaqiqatjouYou're making the claim that if the Quran is personified, that means it has a separate mind.
52:19Sam ShamounAnd I put the point to
52:20Daniel Haqiqatjouand I see. Now you're interrupting. No.
52:22Ijaz AhmadBecause I
52:22Sam Shamounwant you to
52:23Ijaz AhmadCan I
52:23Daniel Haqiqatjouanswer can I answer the question?
52:24Sam ShamounGo ahead. Go ahead.
52:26Daniel HaqiqatjouSo I pointed out that just because there's personification,
52:29Daniel Haqiqatjouthat doesn't imply that there's a separate mind, and I cited
52:33Daniel Haqiqatjouverses of the bible. Your response your response was that, no. This is just personification in the bible. So personification is okay in the bible. That doesn't imply that
52:41Ijaz Ahmadthe bible
52:42Daniel Haqiqatjouthat stones have mines and that rivers have mines. That's
52:46Daniel Haqiqatjouperson that's fine. But if the baron does it or if hadith do it, say, you know, but to
52:51Jay Dyeryour transition, your position is to ask the
52:53Daniel HaqiqatjouYou you ask all
52:54Sam Shamounthe parts. Your position or you're gonna rant and raid because you wanna eat up time?
52:57Daniel HaqiqatjouSo you you interrupt me when I'm answering you. You interrupt
53:00Ijaz Ahmadme.
53:01Ijaz AhmadShouldn't
53:02Ijaz Ahmadwe be able to ask no? You just asked a question,
53:04Sam Shamounand said,
53:06Ijaz Ahmadwe should be able to answer. So
53:08Ijaz Ahmadbut no. It's all written to ask a question.
53:10Sam ShamounI'm gonna ask you a question.
53:11Ijaz AhmadI'm asking you a question, Sam.
53:17Myron GainesLet's let's say
53:18Ijaz Ahmadget to me. And then I'll You'll never get to me. You're gonna keep running.
53:21Sam ShamounYour moderation's got
53:22Ijaz AhmadI'll be able to ask questions or not because if I'm asked to ask, I'll ask you guys one one.
53:26Sam ShamounGo ahead.
53:27Myron GainesOkay. Let's add, add thirty seconds to the clock. We're gonna let Sam finish his point, and then we'll go ahead and let you ask your question.
53:33Ijaz AhmadIs she making points or
53:34Sam Shamounasking questions? So now Daniel. Daniel.
53:36Myron GainesLet him make his his
53:37Sam ShamounStop attacking straw man because Christianity? In the Psalm, you will not find where it says, and the moon will come and intercede
53:45Sam Shamounfor those
53:46Sam Shamounthat look to it
53:48Sam Shamounand venerated it. The hadiths I cited is about the day of resurrection. It's about intercession.
53:53Sam ShamounSo I wanna know,
53:55Sam Shamounwhat do you mean by personification?
53:57Sam ShamounWhen in those hadiths, it's talking about the surahs interceding
54:01Sam Shamounwith Allah. Will there be intercession? Is that true?
54:04Sam ShamounWill people need intercession before Allah? Is that true? So what exactly do you mean by personification?
54:11Sam ShamounBecause your appeal to the Psalms shows that you don't understand what a personification is.
54:17Daniel HaqiqatjouCan I answer without interruption?
54:19Sam ShamounGo ahead. Answer. We'll see how
54:20Daniel Haqiqatjougood you Without interruption. Okay. Answer?
54:23Myron GainesYeah. Yeah. And I'll give you Jaz some time as well because he didn't get a chance. So go ahead.
54:27Ijaz AhmadYeah. Sound didn't come to me. I Yeah.
54:29Daniel HaqiqatjouHe they're just dictating the question. So Open
54:31Sam Shamounheart. I
54:31Daniel Haqiqatjoucited verse of the Quran
54:33Daniel Haqiqatjouin chapter 36 that even your hands, even your feet will intercede.
54:39Daniel HaqiqatjouThere are many things that will intercede
54:42Daniel Haqiqatjouon the day of judgment.
54:43Daniel HaqiqatjouThat doesn't mean that those things have minds.
54:46Daniel HaqiqatjouThose things don't those things don't imply that those things are God, that those are god's mind.
54:51Daniel HaqiqatjouThat's the thing. The point that we made against the trinity is that Jesus has a separate mind, a human mind,
54:58Daniel Haqiqatjouand the father has a separate mind. Now Jay says that the,
55:01Daniel Haqiqatjoumind of Jesus is a fully human mind, but does that mean the father has a fully human mind as well? If not, those are two separate minds of god. So those are two separate
55:13Daniel Haqiqatjouminds, two separate entities, two separate beings. That's not analogous to your hands
55:18Daniel Haqiqatjouinterceding on your behalf on the day of judgment,
55:21Daniel Haqiqatjouor the Quran,
55:23Daniel Haqiqatjouor your feet, or anything else that will intercede
55:26Daniel Haqiqatjouon your behalf on the day of judgment. Explain
55:29Daniel Haqiqatjouhow Jesus can have a separate mind from the father, and they be the same mind.
55:37Sam ShamounSo I didn't interrupt. So who do you wanna answer, Jay? Because he just wants to
55:40Jay Dyerask questions. So the separation comes in the fact that he has a human mind that he assumed, but he he retains the divine mind that he shares with the father because he's a divine person. He's not a human person. This is an important distinction in Christian theology that we don't accept in the story and teaching that Jesus is a human person.
55:58Jay DyerHe's a divine
55:59Jay Dyersubject that assumed a human mind, a human nature, a human will, a human energy. So he shared it's a both and and not an either or, so your whole question is predicated on a false either or.
56:09Myron GainesAlright. So that's not deny that
56:11Daniel Haqiqatjouthe father has a human mind.
56:12Myron GainesSo So real quick. Jesus has
56:13Daniel Haqiqatjoua mind that the father doesn't have.
56:14Myron GainesThat is time. But did you guys wanna ask you, Jazz, a question or did you guys have a question for you guys?
56:19Sam ShamounThere was a
56:20Sam ShamounI wanna answer it. Go ahead, Jazz. What's your question?
56:22Ijaz AhmadSimple question. Why did those scribes omit
56:26Ijaz Ahmadsort of in the Vulgate that Jesus does not a day or the hour when it addresses him as the son speaking of the person, not speaking of natures?
56:33Sam ShamounYeah. Ask me that in the scriptural debates because I'm gonna use
56:37Ijaz Ahmadthat This is theological. This is theological.
56:39Jay DyerNo. It's not.
56:41Ijaz AhmadI'm asking you theologically,
56:43Ijaz Ahmadis this son the person who's obedient?
56:45Sam ShamounCan you Is the son the person who's everything you accuse me of.
56:48Ijaz AhmadCan you answer the question now? Okay. Can you answer it?
56:51Sam ShamounK. Go ahead. Talk over me again. One more time.
56:54Ijaz AhmadI asked the question. It's quite simple.
56:56Sam ShamounYou know, asked the interview to when it says this
56:59Ijaz Ahmadon, listen to my question.
57:00Myron GainesYes. Let him think you
57:01Ijaz Ahmadheard my question.
57:02Sam ShamounYes. Let him answer.
57:03Ijaz AhmadI
57:04Ijaz Ahmadyou don't have to change my question for me. You asked my question. I'm confident.
57:09Sam ShamounChanging Listen to what I said. Okay.
57:11Myron GainesAsked Okay.
57:12Ijaz AhmadI just I
57:13Myron Gainesjust asked I heard question.
57:15Myron GainesJust let him answer. He heard your question. You
57:18Sam Shamounsaid about scribes changing the text, so that is referring to the veracity of the scriptures.
57:24Sam ShamounBut even if we go with your very imbalanced
57:28Sam Shamounapproach to textual criticism,
57:30Sam Shamounthey must have done a very poor job because they left intact the father alone. So even the argument buries you because whatever the scribes did, if they inserted the word son or omitted it, because there was a debate among textual critics,
57:43Sam Shamounthat passage still has the father alone. So they must have done a very poor job because they didn't remove the word alone, and they left Mark thirteen thirty two intact because I know what you're referring to, Matthew twenty four thirty six.
57:54Ijaz AhmadThat wasn't my question.
57:56Sam ShamounOkay. Can you ask me about textual criticism?
57:59Ijaz AhmadThat was my question was not about textual criticism. I asked you, does this sound listen one more time. Listen one more time. I'm asking you, the scribes made the change to omit all the son, and I'm asking you why is it specific for the son to be omitted if the son is the same person or has the same knowledge as the father? Just a simple question. If the son has the same knowledge as the father, why does it specify he's ignorant of it?
58:27Ijaz AhmadTake it.
58:28Daniel HaqiqatjouCan't answer the question. They can't answer it.
58:30Sam ShamounActually, I did.
58:30Daniel HaqiqatjouMove on.
58:31Sam ShamounOkay. No. No. You didn't
58:32Daniel Haqiqatjouyou didn't understand don't the know. The question.
58:34Ijaz AhmadThink it's a textual
58:35Daniel Haqiqatjoucriticism question. Let me you
58:36Myron Gainesdon't answer it. A chance. Let give Sam or Jake a chance to answer this, then we're gonna move on to scripture because we have went on a little bit longer here.
58:42Sam ShamounCould I make a final point to Daniel? One final point?
58:44Myron GainesYeah. Go ahead, Dave. If you can answer their question as well, please.
58:47Sam ShamounThis debate, he shows that he's a very poor debater because he's attacking straw man. Unlike the examples of your hands and feet, the surahs are supposed to be uncreated and eternal.
58:56Sam ShamounSo you still live with the dilemma that the chapters of the Quran, uncreated, eternal,
59:01Sam Shamounwill be speaking with God. So you have uncreated entities unlike your hands and feet. So I'm gonna agree with you. Your Quran is a mindless entity
59:10Sam Shamounwho will appear to Allah without a mind, argue with Allah. So you're left with a mindless entity interacting with your God. So either that means your god is speaking through different modes, or you have a set of 114
59:21Sam Shamoununcreated
59:22Sam Shamouneternal divine objects who are mindless,
59:25Sam Shamounand you have the audacity to attack the trinity. So This
59:28Ijaz Ahmadis job of
59:28Sam Shamoundefending
59:29Daniel Haqiqatjouyour So my answer my answer is Okay.
59:32Myron GainesWhat we'll do, next time is I'm gonna have a question answer for each person when we do this open dialogue because I can see that this can easily spiral, and we'll fix that on the next one.
59:41Myron GainesLet's just move to to scripture because we're getting there anyway. So we'll move on to the scripture part.
59:47Myron GainesSo team Islam, you guys are gonna take kick it off again,
59:50Myron Gainesunless you want team Christianity kick it off on this one.
59:54Daniel HaqiqatjouYeah. Let them go first. Or no. Do you wanna go first, Isha's?
59:57Ijaz AhmadOr Well, I would like I would like Sam to hang himself, so he can go first.
1:00:01Myron GainesAlright. Yeah. Absolutely. No worries. You guys okay? We'll go first?
1:00:04Sam ShamounI'll I'll use that or hang your religion by the grace of Jesus Christ and bury
1:00:07Myron Gainesit.
1:00:07Sam ShamounBut now, let's start
1:00:09Sam Shamountime. By the way, Jay, do want me to take the entire five minutes?
1:00:11Myron GainesSo so
1:00:12Myron Gainesjust for the audience knows, this is gonna be round two now. Same thing, guys.
1:00:16Myron GainesThree rounds,
1:00:18Myron Gainesfour minutes each. Now we're gonna talk about scripture authenticity
1:00:22Myron Gainesbetween the the Quran and the and the the bible. So Yep. I'll turn it over to you. Sam, go ahead.
1:00:28Sam ShamounAlright. Yeah. By the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, Muhammad's God and judge. I'm now going to show the Muslims the dilemma they're in. Because I'm not debating a barb erman who doesn't care about Muhammad. I'm debating Muslims who are supposedly take the position of Muhammad. So I'm appealing to Muhammad because they believe in him. I pray they repent and turn away from him because he's under the feet of Jesus Christ. But coming to that point,
1:00:49Sam Shamounanytime Ajaz attacks the Bible, he shows that he's smarter than Muhammad,
1:00:54Sam Shamounbetter than Muhammad, knows more than Muhammad. Why? Because the consistent teaching of the Quran and the sound narrations, we're gonna get into this, is that Muhammad confirmed the very scriptures that the Jews and Christians had in their possession at his time, and the Quran says that Jesus confirmed the very scriptures between his hands at his time.
1:01:11Sam ShamounUnless now he just wants to come up with some new set of scriptures,
1:01:15Sam Shamounthe only scriptures that would have been in existence time of Jesus up to Muhammad are the very scriptures that have variations just like the Quran does. Let me just go through a slew of verses for the sake of time. Chapter two verses 40 to 44,
1:01:28Sam Shamounchapter two verse 89,
1:01:30Sam Shamounchapter two verse 91,
1:01:31Sam Shamounchapter two verse one zero one, chapter two verse one thirteen, chapter two verse one twenty one, chapter two verse one thirty six, chapter three verses three to four, chapter three verse 50,
1:01:43Sam Shamounchapter three verse I'm sorry. Not chapter three. Chapter four verse 47, and then we go to chapter five, and we read verses 43 to 48, 66 to 68, and on and on it goes. And then the sound narration. So,
1:01:56Sam Shamounmake my day. Help me to hang you. Attack the bible for variations because you show that you know more than Muhammad. That means you expose him as a false prophet. But if you believe in Muhammad, you have to accept the bible, and he's still a false prophet because Muhammad was an. He did not know that his Quran contradicts the bible. Now
1:02:13Sam Shamounthe same arguments that they're gonna label against scripture, I will use to bury their belief in scripture because is going to have to come clean and talk about the.
1:02:22Sam ShamounWhat are they exactly? What are the seven?
1:02:25Sam ShamounOver 35 opinions given by scholars, and we know it cannot be dialectal
1:02:30Sam Shamounbecause I'm gonna show from a hadith in Bukhari
1:02:33Sam Shamounthat Omar heard Hashem recite chapter 25 of the Quran so differently.
1:02:37Sam ShamounHe dragged him to Muhammad,
1:02:40Sam Shamounand Muhammad said, yes. I taught it to him this way. And Omar recited, I taught
1:02:44Sam Shamounthe chapter to you this way, but they were both Croatians spoke the same dialect, so it cannot be dialectal differences.
1:02:51Sam ShamounAnd then we're gonna add to the problem the missing verses and surahs found in the codices of Abdullah ibn Masud, two
1:02:59Sam Shamounof the foremen that Muhammad said learn the Quran from. He didn't say.
1:03:03Sam ShamounHe said learn the Quran from Abdullah ibn Masud, and yet they contradicted each other and your othmanic codex, because
1:03:11Sam Shamounthey're missing verses and missing
1:03:13Sam Shamounso much for the perfectly preserved Quran. But then add to insult injury. Your othman decided to burn copies of the Quran that were in conflict to the point that Muslims are about to come to blows.
1:03:25Sam ShamounYou don't come to blows over minor differences.
1:03:29Sam ShamounAnd he had the Qurans burned, and yet Abdullah bin Masoud refused to the point that your sources say
1:03:35Sam Shamounthat ousman
1:03:37Sam Shamouninstigated a mob reaction against Abdullah bin Masoud who got beat and his bones broken because he thought his knowledge of the crime was superior to your Zayyid ibn Tabith,
1:03:47Sam Shamounwho was
1:03:48Sam Shamounan Ansari.
1:03:50Sam ShamounThen we add insult to injury. What do you do with the different pirat? According to your Muslim sources,
1:03:56Sam Shamounthere were 25 pirat.
1:03:58Sam ShamounBy the time Ibn Mujahid came,
1:04:01Sam Shamouncenturies later, three hundred years later after the death of your prophet, he's the one who standardized seven by whose authority.
1:04:08Sam ShamounSo my challenge to you is show me anywhere in your Quran
1:04:11Sam Shamounor your authentic tradition
1:04:13Sam Shamounwhere your god sanctioned
1:04:15Sam Shamounall these qira'at
1:04:16Sam Shamounand authorized Ibn Mujahid
1:04:18Sam Shamounto standardize seven qira'at,
1:04:21Sam Shamounand these qira'at are not identical.
1:04:23Sam ShamounAnd then I want you to explain to me what the are,
1:04:26Sam Shamounand then we're gonna go into the missing verses, and we're gonna go into the missing
1:04:29Myron GainesThat's tiny.
1:04:29Ijaz AhmadSir. Okay.
1:04:30Sam ShamounThere you go. So let's have fun.
1:04:32Myron GainesAlright.
1:04:33Myron GainesOkay. We will turn it over to team Islam for
1:04:36Myron Gainesround one, and this is authenticity of scripture.
1:04:39Ijaz AhmadOne sec. Let me just reset my time a little actually.
1:04:42Myron GainesNo worries.
1:04:43Ijaz AhmadThere we go. Stop.
1:04:45Myron GainesWe'll start on our side once you start speaking.
1:04:48Ijaz AhmadOkay. Sounds good.
1:04:50Ijaz AhmadYeah. You you can stop.
1:04:52Ijaz AhmadSo here's the thing. Revelation comes with the expectation of validation.
1:04:57Ijaz AhmadScriptural texts and doctrines are authentic if they can be traced back to the figures to whom they were revealed in the way that they were revealed.
1:05:05Ijaz AhmadOtherwise, they are inauthentic.
1:05:07Ijaz AhmadChristians believe that the New Testament can go back to Jesus Christ and his apostles. However, some disagrees because some said in his, livestream
1:05:16Ijaz Ahmadwith that
1:05:17Ijaz Ahmadthe New Testament comes after the time of Christ, probably the second century. So I guess it's not really that early. Good that he omitted the first century. Well done, Sam. To continue with this, the books of the bible as we have them today,
1:05:30Ijaz Ahmadwe can't authenticate them. We can't trace their lineage back. We call it schematics
1:05:36Ijaz Ahmador genealogy.
1:05:37Ijaz AhmadYou have different manuscripts at different times, and we're trying to understand how they're written, why they're written, and with whom.
1:05:44Ijaz AhmadThe thing that we have to keep in mind is that the the the scribes who've written these things or the authors do not identify themselves as having been inspired whatsoever
1:05:53Ijaz Ahmadand bear very little knowledge as to where and when these things were written. For example, if I were to give the most famous verse of the bible, John three sixteen,
1:06:02Ijaz Ahmadacademic scholars do not know if Jesus actually said those words. They think it could be the author or a later scribe. In fact, even the words of that very verse, the most famous, the most popular, has a difference in it. They've changed it to say that Jesus is no longer begotten.
1:06:19Ijaz AhmadThe thing is if they can't get their most famous verse right, what else can they get wrong? What about the Shema Israel when
1:06:28Ijaz AhmadMoses in the book of Deuteronomy has to explain who god is? That differs with the Greek Septuagint,
1:06:34Ijaz Ahmadand it differs with what Jesus says in the New Testament in each gospel. So if Jesus can't get his basic beliefs right in the New Testament,
1:06:42Ijaz AhmadMoses
1:06:43Ijaz Ahmadmakes mistakes in the Old Testament, then these are scriptures I can't believe in, and these prophets seem to have done a very bad job, especially if one of them were meant to be god.
1:06:52Ijaz AhmadBut let's continue here.
1:06:54Ijaz AhmadWe have that
1:06:56Ijaz Ahmadlet's consider Isaiah chapter 40 verse eight. It says that the word of god will stand forever.
1:07:01Ijaz AhmadJesus says something similar in Matthew five eighteen, that not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen will disappear from scripture.
1:07:10Ijaz AhmadUnfortunately,
1:07:11Ijaz Ahmadthis prophecy is false. How do we know this? They admit that no no two manuscripts are the same down to the letters and the strokes. And I want you to notice here, Jay cannot identify for me which biblical tradition you hold to textually and neither can some. Some says the only textual tradition you would accept, if it's from a Trinitarian,
1:07:31Ijaz Ahmadyou don't know what the early Christians believed in the first century. So how can you make that distinction and determination?
1:07:37Ijaz AhmadI would add one more thing here. That yeah. It's actually a list kept by the Jews,
1:07:43Ijaz Ahmadbut it changes that they made to scripture.
1:07:46Ijaz AhmadSee, this isn't a Muslim invention.
1:07:48Ijaz AhmadHistorically,
1:07:49Ijaz Ahmadthe there's a list called the changes by the scribes.
1:07:54Ijaz AhmadThe scribes changed words in the Torah, and we find that in the Christian version of the of the Old Testament that those changes are also present there. So we ask, do we know with the fact that changes were made by scribes? The Jews say yes, and the Christians have it in their bible. And these are not menial changes.
1:08:14Ijaz AhmadWe continue here.
1:08:16Ijaz AhmadChristian scholars believe that the bible could be reliable for two reasons. One, that it's early enough in time to the time of Jesus, and two, the vast amount of manuscripts that they have. The problem here, however, is if some appeals to those scholars and their reasoning, then the same metrics when used for the Quran completely authenticated.
1:08:36Ijaz AhmadWe know exactly what the Quran is. We can recreate its prototype text. We have a standard that we can develop for it, and we have the manuscripts from the lifetime of the prophet.
1:08:45Ijaz AhmadSorry.
1:08:47Ijaz AhmadFive?
1:08:48Ijaz AhmadSorry. What?
1:08:49Myron GainesNo. No. No. Was just gonna say I was giving you the last ten seconds.
1:08:52Ijaz AhmadOh, sorry.
1:08:52Myron GainesThat's time right there.
1:08:54Ijaz AhmadSorry. It's alright. Yeah.
1:08:55Myron GainesNo. It's fine. Okay.
1:08:57Myron GainesSo that completes
1:08:59Myron Gainesround one of topic two, which is authenticity of scripture.
1:09:03Myron GainesWe're gonna do go ahead, Moe. We're gonna turn real quick word from our sponsor guys, and we're gonna get right back into it. Go ahead, Moe.
1:09:13Myron GainesThis if you guys gotta use a bathroom or whatever, go ahead. Go real quick.
1:09:16Sam ShamounThis episcopacy You want me to take this for, or do want what do wanna
1:09:20Jay DyerYeah. You can. I'll have maybe one or two points I can do briefly on that.
1:09:24Myron GainesOkay. Go ahead, Moe. Read through it and then yeah, guys. And we'll get right back into it after. Go ahead, Moe.
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1:10:50Myron GainesThank you so much, Mo. Appreciate that. We're back to the show. We're gonna go round two, guys, of authenticity
1:10:56Myron Gainesof the scripture. It's gonna be on team Christianity.
1:11:00Myron GainesJay, believe you want we're gonna take this one. Right?
1:11:03Jay DyerYeah. I just have one brief point, then I'll hand it back over to Sam.
1:11:06Jay DyerYeah. I think that ejou's unknowingly sort of shot himself in the foot there because
1:11:11Jay Dyerthe the the text that Sam listed
1:11:16Jay Dyerpresuppose
1:11:17Jay Dyerthat you could go and confirm the new revelation with the old. So if I were to set up a hypothetical scenario of a sixth,
1:11:25Jay Dyerseventh century Jew or Christian hearing this message,
1:11:28Jay Dyerhearing it for the first time it's being revealed, seventh century, I should say. And we're told that we can go to check it against the prior revelation.
1:11:36Jay DyerIf the prior revelation is corrupt, how foolish then that we're checking it against something corrupted. And in fact, the text actually don't say that the prior revelation is corrupted. That's a made up thing that he's, tacking on, later on. Go ahead, Sam.
1:11:49Sam ShamounYeah. Now I wanna congratulate
1:11:51Sam ShamounEjaz for now doing what I said, and he pretty much destroyed his religion. Because I appealed to Muhammad. He appealed to biblical scholars. Isn't it ironic? A Christian who thinks Muhammad is a false prophet and antichrist
1:12:02Sam Shamounis appealing to Muhammad. He's appealing to uninspired
1:12:07Sam Shamountextual critics, which means
1:12:09Sam Shamounhe just proved these scholars know better than his prophet. Good job, Ijaz. Why are you still a Muslim? You need to repent. So if these textual critics that you are selectively sliding and misquoting because you don't quote in context
1:12:22Sam ShamounAlright. Muhammad is wrong. Allah's wrong because Muhammad had no problem with the variations in the manuscripts that existed amongst the Jews and Christians unless you're saying he was that much of an, that much ignorant. He didn't know that the Christians, their old testament would have variations with the Jewish scriptures
1:12:39Sam Shamounbecause he confirmed them.
1:12:41Sam ShamounYou'll find that in chapter three verses three to four, chapter five verse 48, chapter two verses forty, forty four, but then to add insult and injury to your case.
1:12:50Sam ShamounIn chapter three verse 50, in chapter five verse 46,
1:12:53Sam Shamounin chapter 61 verse six, it says Jesus confirmed confirmed
1:13:00Sam Shamounthe scriptures between his hands. Well, did Allah not know that at the time of Jesus, there were different textual traditions of the old testament that were not uniform? They had variations.
1:13:09Sam ShamounSo is he deceiving Jesus? Did your god deceive Jesus to confirm all the scriptures, not a word about the variations proving textual corruption? So you know more more than your god and your prophet. Why are you a Muslim? But now let's talk about the variant readings in your Quran that are significant
1:13:26Sam Shamounthat you don't find in the Uthmanic codex. For example, chapter 37 verse 12 in the Quran, when you read it today, it says, in fact, you are astonished by their denial while they ridicule you. But Ibn uses
1:13:39Sam Shamouna variant to prove that your god gets shocked and amazed. And here's how he quotes it. In fact, I was astonished
1:13:45Sam Shamounby their denial while they ridicule you. So now,
1:13:49Sam Shamounwho's getting astonished? Does your god get astonished?
1:13:52Sam ShamounAjaptu
1:13:53Sam Shamounor you were astonished?
1:13:55Sam ShamounThat's not the same, and it doesn't affect theology because it shows that your god
1:14:00Sam Shamounis affected by your actions and time, which means he was caught by surprise. So this is a meaningful variant. But wait. We got another variant. Chapter 33 verse six.
1:14:10Sam ShamounAccording to the of as
1:14:13Sam Shamounwell as Abdullah ibn Masud and others, a host of them,
1:14:19Sam Shamounthere was
1:14:20Sam Shamounan additional line in thirty three sixty 33 verse six where it says,
1:14:27Sam Shamounand he is
1:14:28Sam Shamouna father to you, and his wives
1:14:31Sam Shamounare your mothers. A father to you and his wives are your mothers. Where is that phrase? A father to you. And this is confirmed by Muhammad Assad of the y'all fide, which is why Muhammad Assad includes the words a father to them, a father to you in brackets. That's significant,
1:14:48Sam Shamoundon't you think? But where is it? Now how much time I have? Because I got a lot
1:14:51Myron Gainesof these examples. Seconds.
1:14:52Sam ShamounThat shows Quran is corrupted. How many? Twelve seconds.
1:14:56Sam ShamounTwelve seconds. Anyway, the point is your own standard buries your Quran because there are no no two chronic manuscripts that are a 100% identical.
1:15:04Sam ShamounPoint to the two chronic manuscripts that
1:15:06Myron Gainesare Last time.
1:15:07Sam Shamoun100% identical. Let's see.
1:15:09Myron GainesAlright.
1:15:10Myron GainesTurn it back to team Islam.
1:15:12Myron GainesBottom of the second round.
1:15:14Ijaz AhmadYep. So let me just run through this quickly.
1:15:16Daniel HaqiqatjouWait. Can I make some points first, you judge?
1:15:18Ijaz AhmadSure. Yes. Go. Sure.
1:15:19Daniel HaqiqatjouSo what the audience should know, like, all that gobbledygook that we just heard from the Christian side,
1:15:25Daniel Haqiqatjouwhen it comes to textual preservation
1:15:27Daniel Haqiqatjouof the Quran, we have manuscripts,
1:15:30Daniel Haqiqatjouphysical manuscripts that archaeologic
1:15:32Daniel Haqiqatjouarchaeologists have found that date are radiocarbon dated to the time of the prophet, peace be upon him,
1:15:38Daniel Haqiqatjouthat match with what Muslims read, memorize, and recite today.
1:15:43Daniel HaqiqatjouThere is nothing like that when it comes to the Bible. The earliest complete manuscript of the New Testament is from the fourth century,
1:15:51Daniel Haqiqatjouover three hundred years after Jesus.
1:15:54Daniel HaqiqatjouSo the audience needs to remember, this is a huge difference. How can we tell that between the three hundred years that Jesus was alive to the first manuscript,
1:16:02Daniel Haqiqatjoucomplete manuscript of the New Testament being found, so many of the teachings
1:16:06Daniel Haqiqatjouof Jesus haven't been distorted, haven't been changed, haven't been altered for the sake of political experience or whatever or theological
1:16:13Daniel Haqiqatjouexperience, whatever it may be. So this is a huge difference between the Quran and the Bible. Let's look at apocryphal
1:16:19Daniel Haqiqatjoutexts. Let's look at the fact that the Catholic,
1:16:23Daniel HaqiqatjouOld Testament
1:16:24Daniel Haqiqatjouhas more books than the Masoretic
1:16:28Daniel Haqiqatjoutext, of the Hebrew bible. You have entire
1:16:31Daniel Haqiqatjoubooks. We're not talking about, like, all Stam can bring up are, like, difference in pronoun usage, like y'all malun versus tamalun in Arabic. He doesn't even know Arabic. That's like pronouns, like a difference in pronouns, and he wants to make it a big oh, this is so significant. Yeah. Muslims know about the Quran. Muslims memorize the different modes of recitation. So what? Even people many people that I know have memorized them. But how about the Catholic bible having the book of Judith,
1:16:58Daniel Haqiqatjouhaving first and second Maccabees,
1:16:59Daniel Haqiqatjouhaving, additions to the book of Daniel, the additions to the book of Esther, the book of Susanna, all of these additions that are not found in the Masoretic text. Then you have another variation of the Old Testament with the, Dead Sea Scrolls. The sept the Septuagint is the Catholic version. You have all of these different, manuscripts that are not small little differences.
1:17:21Daniel HaqiqatjouThere are entire books that are not found. Now he wants to mention these surahs,
1:17:26Daniel Haqiqatjoufrom Ubbe ibn Cap. One thing that Muslims also know is that there is disagreement about whether certain verses are part of the Quran or not. A very well known disagreement is on the.
1:17:37Daniel HaqiqatjouIs
1:17:39Daniel Haqiqatjouthat part of every surah
1:17:41Daniel Haqiqatjouof the Quran? Is it only part of surah al Fatiha?
1:17:44Daniel HaqiqatjouThere is a well known disagreement among the schools of thought on this. But that's not some mind blow it's not like a completely different book that's not found in the Catholic version or the orthodox version of the bible.
1:17:56Daniel HaqiqatjouIt's just one word, bismillah.
1:17:58Daniel HaqiqatjouOr if you're looking at the, the,
1:18:01Daniel Haqiqatjouthe different surahs that you're claiming are missing,
1:18:04Daniel Haqiqatjouany Muslim who reads these, I can even read you the translation of these surahs,
1:18:09Daniel Haqiqatjouthey're just the dua, the prayer that is read in in
1:18:13Daniel Haqiqatjouthe prayer.
1:18:15Daniel HaqiqatjouAnd there was a different disagreement among some of the companions on whether this is part of the Quran.
1:18:20Daniel HaqiqatjouJust like there's a disagreement on the on
1:18:23Daniel Haqiqatjouthe being part of every single verse or not.
1:18:27Daniel HaqiqatjouThis is not like some missing book that we don't know about. Like, this is what Muslims are reciting in prayer
1:18:33Daniel Haqiqatjouevery day or every week on a regular basis.
1:18:36Daniel HaqiqatjouSo you're trying to make a big deal out of the Quranic variation to hide the fact that the the text of the Bible is not preserved. You can't find an authentic manuscript within three hundred years of Jesus' life, let alone Moses.
1:18:50Daniel HaqiqatjouYou have all of these variations with the Old Testament.
1:18:53Daniel HaqiqatjouThe sects, the Christian denominations do not agree on what the books of the bible are. What what is the canonical books of the bible? You have all of these disagreements, but we should ignore all that. And you wanna bring up y'all Malun versus or
1:19:07Daniel Haqiqatjoubell egypt too. Like, this is a joke.
1:19:09Daniel HaqiqatjouSo your audience is ignorant of Arabic. That's why they this seems like a big revelation to them. But for Muslims, it's laughable. Go ahead.
1:19:18Myron GainesOkay. Jake, can
1:19:19Sam ShamounI take the four minutes?
1:19:20Jay DyerYeah. I just have two points here. First of all, Daniel said the Septuagint
1:19:24Jay Dyeris the Catholic version, which is not true. It's that's the orthodox
1:19:28Jay Dyerold testament. This really has nothing to do with the topic that we're discussing because
1:19:34Jay Dyerthe Masoretic text was used by some of the Jews. There were other groups of Jews that also used the Septuagint. So you seem to be totally unaware of any of that, which has nothing to do with which ones are the the the correct canon. And Sam and I agree on that point. So, Sam, I'll let you go.
1:19:49Sam ShamounYeah. Now, guys, notice the deceit and the smoke and mirrors. You see the deception on part of Daniel? He appealed to the Birmingham Quran,
1:19:56Sam Shamounand then he compared that to the later codices, which were more complete and not to the papyri that appears from the second, third, fourth centuries. Now I wanna challenge Daniel.
1:20:06Sam ShamounThe Birmingham Quran that you say is come from the time Muhammad, how many surahs are contained? You have all 114 surahs.
1:20:13Sam ShamounYou have every verse of every surah in the Birmingham Quran. See, again, this kind of deceit
1:20:18Sam Shamounand dishonesty
1:20:19Sam Shamounis unbecoming someone who claims to follow the god of truth. Now let's come back to how we try to brush aside the very readings. Notice what I said about thirty seven twelve. One says, you were astonished.
1:20:30Sam ShamounThe other one has his god saying, I was astonished. Oh, but that's no big deal. That's something minor. We can brush it aside. Oh, really? So are you acknowledging
1:20:38Sam Shamounthat the variant reading affects whether your god can be impacted by the actions of his creatures in time and space? Because I was astonished and you're astonished is not the same unless you think Muhammad is Allah. And what Muhammad feels, Allah feels. Thirdly, notice again he compares apples and pineapples.
1:20:56Sam ShamounHe's comparing a collection of different books, the bible, written by different authors
1:21:01Sam Shamounat different times
1:21:04Sam Shamounand comparing it with one Quran that supposedly came through one medium, and yet the companions of Muhammad cannot agree on the content of that one Quran. You just buried yourself, Daniel. Because that argument
1:21:15Sam Shamounworks more forcefully against your Quran because you're comparing the work of one author and his companions can't figure out how many surahs, how many chapters with a collection of books written by different people at different times so there'll be some natural confusion whether this book really comes from an inspired author. But we shouldn't find that problem with your Quran if there's only one medium, and they all memorize the Quran perfectly, which is a lie from the pit of hell. Moreover,
1:21:43Sam Shamoundeal with the actual argument I brought up. Abdullah ibn Masud is no. Ubai ibn Ka'ab is no.
1:21:50Sam ShamounThey are two of the four men that your prophet said learned the Quran from, and I have here traditions,
1:21:57Sam ShamounSahih, that's Abdullah ibn Masud recited
1:22:00Sam Shamounthe Quran in front of companions of Muhammad, and they agreed that his recitation is fresh and the way it was revealed by Gabriel through Muhammad, and yet your Quran
1:22:10Sam Shamoundoesn't agree to the point that your
1:22:13Sam Shamounwanted to burn Abdullah ibn Masud's Quran. Why if they are slight variations?
1:22:18Sam ShamounYou don't go to war. You don't accuse each other of corrupting the Quran over slight variations.
1:22:23Sam ShamounStop with the lies.
1:22:25Sam ShamounVolume six five zero nine five ten. So, again, we're gonna ask you, how come the companions of Muhammad could not figure out how many chapters? Abdullah bin Musud said, only a 111.
1:22:36Sam ShamounSaid one sixteen, which you tried to pass off as dua. Are you saying, the
1:22:40Sam Shamounmaster of the chronic reciters, did not know those two chapters were not surahs but prayers? So you know more than, which means that your prophet made a pathetic judgment call because he mentioned him as one of the four, not you, Daniel Haqiqatjou.
1:22:54Sam ShamounThank you for bearing your Quran, and thank you for showing that Mohammed didn't know what he's talking about. Mohammed confirmed the bible, and you're saying, no. He's wrong. Why are you a Muslim? Repent. Come to Jesus, Mohammed's God and judge. I think my time is up.
1:23:07Myron GainesAlright. Now you still got fifteen seconds, but if that
1:23:09Sam ShamounOh, yeah. That's it. That's the same. Now stop with the paganism. Come to Jesus. Muhammad's god and judge. But thank you, Daniel. You helped me show that you don't believe Muhammad. You think Muhammad didn't know what he's talking about, and I agree. And the scholars knew more than Muhammad. Stop being a Muslim.
1:23:23Myron GainesAlright.
1:23:24Myron GainesAnd that is time. So
1:23:26Myron Gainesthis is gonna be the bottom of the third round. Again, authenticity of scripture. So I'm gonna turn it to team Islam to finish this up. And then if if you guys want, we will go ahead and have another
1:23:36Myron Gainesopen dialogue round. If you guys want
1:23:38Sam Shamouncan moderate it. Good. Yeah. If not Yeah.
1:23:39Ijaz AhmadBut what
1:23:39Myron GainesI'm gonna have to do is for this open dialogue round, it's gonna be question answer. So both parties will be able to ask a question to the other party. Other party answers, and then they ask a question in return. But you have to answer the question. So that's how I have to do a question answer for each. Each party goes ahead and gets a question. We'll start with with Dan. He could just ask a question to the team or to a particular person, and then that person answers that question, then they can go ahead and ask another member of the team. That way we keep it fair and put five minutes on the clock. So team Islam, are you guys ready?
1:24:07Myron GainesBut, again, this is your guys' four minutes uninterrupted notes. You guys for the last round of authenticity of scripture,
1:24:13Myron Gaineswhenever you guys start speaking, we'll turn the clock on. Go ahead.
1:24:17Daniel HaqiqatjouThis is the last round, or do they get a response after?
1:24:20Myron GainesNo. This is the last round, and then it's open dialogue after this.
1:24:23Daniel HaqiqatjouAlright. Go ahead, Ejaz. You're on mute.
1:24:29Daniel HaqiqatjouYou're still on mute.
1:24:32Daniel HaqiqatjouHey, Jazz.
1:24:35Ijaz AhmadYep. So I'll just start on the time. So
1:24:37Ijaz AhmadI think that Sam just spent most of his time reading lists of verses that he does not understand. There is consensus among the early Muslims as to what the Quran is. And in fact, what he's appealing to, vis a vis the codex from some of the companions,
1:24:51Ijaz Ahmadthese are only found in a tradition
1:24:54Ijaz Ahmadthat Arthur Jeffrey,
1:24:56Ijaz Ahmadtranslated,
1:24:57Ijaz AhmadI think, in the nineteenth or twentieth century. It does not refer to any actual physical manuscript
1:25:02Ijaz Ahmadthat is actually known and dated and seen. So there's a difference between a tradition being said in past as opposed to a physical manuscript in existence. And the same people that transmit the hadith, the same people that transmit the Quran, they transmit it to Ibn Masore. They transmit it through the companions in at least three of the seven chains that are well known. So there's no difference among the companions as the number of surahs in the Quran. Please don't bring me something that Arthur Jeffrey randomly translated that more academic life accepts.
1:25:34Ijaz AhmadAnd by academic here, we refer to the Muslims who transmitted the Quran because they would count it letter by letter, line by line, psychometric.
1:25:42Ijaz AhmadSo we actually have a way that we can mathematically know how many ayats were written in manuscripts. It is isn't done randomly.
1:25:49Ijaz AhmadSo I'm not gonna be like some and pretend to know what the Quran says. There is consensus
1:25:54Ijaz Ahmadthat the Muslims never took the bible of scripture. How do we know that? Because Allah commands us to
1:26:01Ijaz Ahmadtestify and believe in the scriptures that he has revealed.
1:26:04Ijaz AhmadAnd when we find this in the Quran, you find no companion saying that it is required as a Muslim to believe in the bible as it exists today. There is no such compulsion,
1:26:14Ijaz Ahmadwhereas we are being compulsed
1:26:16Ijaz Ahmadto believe that the revelations were given to prophets in the past. When he mentions,
1:26:21Ijaz AhmadJesus in the Quran, Jesus affirms the revelation revealed it to him. This is what Allah mentions in the Quran. He has not testified to a book that came after him, which is what some believes in. And let me clear here. We have four forty seven. We
1:26:38Ijaz Ahmadhave so many manuscripts after Quran within the first hundred years of the prophet Muhammad peace be upon him that complete the Quran. This is complete in distinction to the bible where you don't have anything even similar to it. You have no second century manuscripts,
1:26:53Ijaz Ahmadno third century manuscripts.
1:26:54Ijaz AhmadHow do we notice? Elijah Hixson.
1:26:57Ijaz AhmadTexture critic, he gets manuscripts. There's an entire institute at the University of Munster that determines the papyri and the manuscripts of the New Testament, and they don't determine that there's a single manuscript within the second century. And when it comes to the third century, as Sam has admitted, he believes that in
1:27:15Ijaz Ahmadthe fourth century is full of errors, heresies, lies. That's your most reliable manuscript. If they're most reliable,
1:27:22Ijaz Ahmadphysically, still about lies, don't pretend to tell me what the Quran says because you simply don't know it. And I'll end with this. The god of the New Testament, said,
1:27:32Ijaz AhmadI don't think he's intelligent
1:27:34Ijaz Ahmador how do I say this, understand scripture. How could the god of the Old Testament and the New Testament forget his name? In Exodus three fourteen,
1:27:42Ijaz Ahmadthe in the Greek sapturagint,
1:27:44Ijaz Ahmadthe name that he's supposed to give is
1:27:47Ijaz AhmadJesus
1:27:49Ijaz Ahmadin the New Testament gives the wrong phrase. He
1:27:51Ijaz Ahmadmisquotes his own sacred name that generation for generation must remain. It's ridiculous. Titus three nine. God has to tell you that don't debate about genealogies because they lead to foolish arguments.
1:28:03Ijaz AhmadTwo of your gospels use genealogies as a basis to determine the messianic
1:28:09Ijaz Ahmadplace of Christ. It's ridiculous. I'm sorry. Address the questions and the claims and the manuscripts. Don't bring me random things that you don't understand.
1:28:17Daniel HaqiqatjouYeah. So, I mean, there's
1:28:19Myron GainesTwenty seconds.
1:28:20Daniel HaqiqatjouOne of the things about the horonic manuscript, it seems like Sam only knows about the Birmingham manuscript. There are many manuscripts. If you paid attention when Ijaz was speaking in the opening, he listed the different codices, the different manuscripts.
1:28:33Daniel HaqiqatjouAll of those together,
1:28:36Daniel Haqiqatjouare the Quran that we read today. Not just contained to one manuscript.
1:28:40Myron GainesAlright. So what I'll do is, so or do you guys wanna do the open dialogue, do you guys wanna move on to the third one?
1:28:47Sam ShamounYeah. If it doesn't go into, like, a free for us to have questions.
1:28:50Myron GainesThis is how we're gonna do it, guys. Five minutes on the clock. I will go ahead and kick it off with whoever wants to ask first question. Let's say, for example okay. Who wants to ask Dan? Yeah. Okay. So Dan, when you ask your question, you can direct it either to Sam or Jay. Once they answer the question now, they get to go ahead and direct the question back to a member of whether it be you or to Ejaz.
1:29:10Myron GainesSo and then you gotta answer answer the question, and then you get the ability to ask a counter question back after you answer it. Okay. Fair enough. That way we're able to keep this thing moving. Everyone's able to be involved and to get their questions asked and answered, and we can still have open dialogue here to some degree. I'll turn it over to you, Dan. We got five minutes on the clock, guys. Let's be strict on the time. Go ahead, please.
1:29:30Daniel HaqiqatjouOkay. Can you either of you explain to me how many western scholars
1:29:34Daniel Haqiqatjouof the bible
1:29:36Daniel Haqiqatjoubelieve that the old testament can be traced back to Moses versus how many believe that the Quran can be traced to the life of the prophet Muhammad?
1:29:46Daniel HaqiqatjouYou want
1:29:46Sam Shamounme to answer that, Jay?
1:29:47Myron GainesSure. Go ahead. Yeah.
1:29:49Sam ShamounWell, I have one better
1:29:51Sam Shamounfor you than Muslim scholar, Western scholars. I have your prophet. So I keep appealing to your prophet. So if Western scholars are right, then join me in saying Mohammed is an antichrist, a false prophet. I appeal to your prophet. You appeal to Western scholars. And it depends on which Western scholars you wanna appeal to because not all Western caller scholars believe the same thing and hold the same presuppositions.
1:30:13Sam ShamounBut I can also appeal to Western scholars. I don't think that your Quran, as you have it, it's even from ousman. It's actually from
1:30:21Sam ShamounAbdul Malik from the eighth centuries. But I did you better. I went to Muhammad. Why do you have a problem with Muhammad? Why are you ashamed of Muhammad? He's your prophet. Right? Your prophet tells me that the scriptures that Jesus had, that Torah is the uncorrupt revelation of God, perfectly preserved, and Jesus confirmed it. And since you believe the Torah was given to Moses, your prophet did it for me. So if you give me 99%
1:30:45Sam Shamounof what's in scholarship,
1:30:46Sam Shamounthen either your profit is wrong,
1:30:49Sam Shamounand admit he is, and I agree he is, but for other reasons,
1:30:52Sam Shamounright, or the scholars are wrong, you can't have your cake and eat it too. Why do you keep
1:30:57Sam Shamoundoing jihad against your profit? You
1:31:00Sam Shamounshould be agreeing with them.
1:31:01Ijaz AhmadNo. Yeah. This is a false dilemma because we have the physical management of our Well, hold not
1:31:07Myron GainesAjaz, so now Sam gets to answer that ask a question back in return. Let's put twenty seconds on the clock real quick. Go ahead, Sam. Ask a question, and then they get to answer your question and respond to you.
1:31:18Sam ShamounOkay. Now you guys have been straw manning the arguments I've been presenting. So now I'm going to ask
1:31:24Sam Shamounboth of you. Give me the date of the oldest extent, Mus'haf, that has all 114
1:31:30Sam Shamounchapters,
1:31:31Sam Shamounthe oldest
1:31:33Sam Shamouncopy that has 114 chapters,
1:31:35Sam Shamounand point out to two chronic manuscripts that are 100% identical.
1:31:40Sam ShamounGo ahead.
1:31:41Daniel HaqiqatjouSo we address the question by saying there is not one manuscript.
1:31:45Daniel HaqiqatjouThere are several that date to within the lifetime of the prophet, peace be upon him. You can go to Ejaz's opening statement. He lists them. You didn't pay attention to what he said, so you're asking the same question over and over again. The answer to how many western scholars think that the Pentateuch or the Old Testament goes back to Moses is zero. Zero Western scholars. How many Western scholars scholars of the Bible think that the New Testament goes to the time of Jesus? Zero. Zero Western scholars. How many academics
1:32:14Daniel Haqiqatjouof Quranic studies who are non Muslim, by the way, they don't necessarily even like Islam,
1:32:19Daniel Haqiqatjoubelieve that the Quran can be dated, radiocarbon dated scientifically
1:32:23Daniel Haqiqatjouto the time of the prophet? That is the academic consensus. And you can read about that in books the Quran, a historical critical introduction by Nikolai Sinai,
1:32:32Daniel HaqiqatjouSana'a and the origins of the Quran by Behnaam and Mossan and GOARZI, and Islam and the Empires of Faith by Sean Anthony. These are non Muslim, many of them, and they believe that the Quran, not just one manuscript, but multiple manuscripts that are aligned and aligned with what we, as Muslims, read and recite today of the Quran is dated scientifically
1:32:52Daniel Haqiqatjouto the time of the prophet, peace be upon him. You can't say that about the Old Testament going back to Moses. You can't say that about the New Testament going back to Jesus.
1:33:01Daniel HaqiqatjouThe earliest full manuscript of the New Testament only goes to the fourth century, over three hundred years after Jesus lived.
1:33:09Daniel HaqiqatjouWhy don't you address that?
1:33:10Ijaz AhmadBut, Daniel, just
1:33:11Sam ShamounBy the way, modernity.
1:33:12Ijaz AhmadSam says that that manuscript
1:33:14Ijaz Ahmadis belongs in the trash. Sam says this would that
1:33:18Ijaz Ahmadmanuscript Can I
1:33:19Sam Shamounask you a question?
1:33:20Ijaz AhmadThe new commercial help me
1:33:21Myron Gaineswith this.
1:33:22Sam ShamounHold on. Tell me hold on. Okay. Pause clock
1:33:36Sam Shamounhe then answered my answer to his question. Do I have a right not to refute his lies?
1:33:41Daniel HaqiqatjouYou can wait till we ask a question and then refute the lies.
1:33:44Sam ShamounOkay. And I'm just saying because he didn't stay on topic. He didn't answer my question.
1:33:47Daniel HaqiqatjouHe didn't have You haven't stayed on topic whole debate.
1:33:50Myron GainesYep. Okay. So this this what this is what I'll do. Let me go ahead and let we'll let you just ask the question because they did answer the question just now. And then and then you can go and then that'll probably it'll probably go to you to answer, and then you can go ahead and address what you had before.
1:34:03Sam ShamounKnow if you wanna say something too, brother. I don't wanna hug up.
1:34:04Ijaz AhmadOkay. So my question is to Jay Diode.
1:34:07Ijaz AhmadWhen Sam Shimun let me just quote this so I I don't get it wrong. When Sam Shimun says, and he agrees with the statement,
1:34:14Ijaz Ahmadthe Sinaiticus documents is full of errors and heretical statements,
1:34:20Ijaz Ahmadstruggles,
1:34:21Ijaz Ahmadand hopefully, someday in the near future,
1:34:23Ijaz Ahmadshould be discarded to the trash can. Is he aligning with your beliefs or not?
1:34:29Jay DyerWell, out of your home
1:34:30Sam Shamounthe article where I said that, Jay? I just wanna ask him. Give me the link to the article where I said those exact words. Give me
1:34:34Ijaz Ahmadthe link. It's on my Twitter. It's on my Twitter right now. Yes. You said
1:34:37Sam Shamounit. It's on
1:34:38Ijaz Ahmadmy Twitter. You can go to it.
1:34:39Sam ShamounOkay. Send me the link.
1:34:40Ijaz AhmadIt's on my Twitter. You can go to it. You can't. And I could actually quote from you from Chris Cole Give me the link.
1:34:46Ijaz AhmadThe New Testament comes in the second century, not even the first. Go to my Twitter.
1:34:51Jay DyerRight. So the the whole of this argument is presupposing that something has to be immediately recorded at the time of the event, and you're just using your own positions,
1:35:01Jay Dyerstandards to judge our position. We don't believe that. We believe in the ability of oral tradition to transmit just as well as something written. So you have an artificial standard that you expect of us that is not our standard. So I don't believe we don't worship a book. We're not a book based religion like you are.
1:35:18Ijaz AhmadSo that was my question. I address my read one second. Your your question
1:35:22Jay Dyeris based on a false assumption.
1:35:23Ijaz AhmadThat's Hold on. Look. I read just to be clear, you didn't answer my question.
1:35:27Jay DyerWe don't follow one codyssey. I don't have your presuppositions.
1:35:30Jay DyerSo you're on your your
1:35:31Ijaz Ahmadyour your your I'm not
1:35:32Jay Dyera Protestant. We're not Protestants. Yeah.
1:35:39Ijaz AhmadQuestion. Yes.
1:35:40Myron GainesHe did.
1:35:40Ijaz AhmadI would like to do this. My question
1:35:41Daniel Haqiqatjouthat you
1:35:42Ijaz Ahmadit's based off of lot the hard talk
1:35:44Myron Gainesprofessed
1:35:44Ijaz AhmadDo you agree with sound that it belongs in the trash?
1:35:47Jay DyerIt doesn't matter which text trash. Position. Won't matter which text
1:35:51Ijaz Ahmadbelongs in
1:35:52Ijaz Ahmadas he said.
1:35:53Sam ShamounIt doesn't matter if trash as well.
1:35:55Ijaz AhmadBut It doesn't matter if the bible belongs in the trash? No. The codex sinaiticus that's the testing.
1:36:00Jay DyerThe codex sinaiticus is not what the tradition hinges on. That's what your argument hinges on.
1:36:05Ijaz AhmadIt's the earliest complete
1:36:07Jay DyerIt doesn't matter.
1:36:08Ijaz AhmadYou say it doesn't matter.
1:36:09Jay DyerEarly
1:36:09Sam Shamoundoesn't matter. Here. Mario, stop. Can I
1:36:12Myron Gainessay something?
1:36:12Sam ShamounThat's a
1:36:13Ijaz Ahmadshin. Okay.
1:36:14Myron GainesSo I'm gonna let Sam go ahead and and come in because there were some allegations made about something he said or whatever maybe. And he did answer your question, Hijaz. I know that you don't you don't like to answer,
1:36:25Myron Gainesbut he did answer it.
1:36:26Ijaz AhmadNo. I asked if he agreed with signing.
1:36:28Sam ShamounCan I answer it?
1:36:29Myron GainesWhich and now we'll go ahead and Panic. Go to what Sam said on those comments.
1:36:33Sam ShamounNotice notice neither of them answered my specific question. He says that he just rattled off some manuscripts,
1:36:39Sam ShamounTopaki, Tashkent, whatever it is. That wasn't my question. Let me try it again, but you can't answer. Guys, remember, they failed miserably.
1:36:46Sam ShamounI said,
1:36:48Sam Shamounpoint to the earliest
1:36:50Sam Shamounmosaab codex that has all 114
1:36:53Sam Shamounsurahs of the Quran with all the verses that they accept today
1:36:58Sam Shamounin their 1924
1:36:59Sam ShamounCairo edition. They couldn't do that. Then I asked, show me any two chronic manuscripts
1:37:05Sam Shamounthat are identical
1:37:07Sam Shamoun100%.
1:37:08Sam ShamounYou didn't answer the question, Daniel. Neither did your friend. And, again, if Western scholars are right, your profit is a fraud.
1:37:15Sam ShamounAnd you're wrong. There are many Western scholars. You may not like them because they're conservative.
1:37:19Sam ShamounThey do believe that Moses wrote the Torah, and they believe there's enough evidence for it, not only because Jesus confirmed it. But if Western scholars are right, I don't know what you guys don't get. You just prove Muhammad is a false prophet antichrist
1:37:31Sam Shamounbecause he doesn't agree with Western scholars. He agrees with me. And here I am defending your false prophet. Glory to Jesus.
1:37:38Myron GainesOkay. And, Chas, did you have something else that you wanted to and then we'll finish off with that. Just wanna make sure everybody got their question off that they wanted to get off.
1:37:46Daniel HaqiqatjouYeah. I mean, he he gave us a question about the prophet, peace be upon him, confirming the Torah,
1:37:53Daniel Haqiqatjouand we
1:37:54Daniel Haqiqatjoudidn't address that question. So I can address it right now. The
1:37:57Sam Shamounfour minutes, you never adjust. You wanna adjust it now? Then I need a response.
1:38:02Daniel HaqiqatjouThe back is Are we still in the q and a session?
1:38:04Myron GainesOkay. So let
1:38:05Daniel Haqiqatjoume let me respond. Then I gotta respond. I'll have your
1:38:07Myron Gainesresponse this morning. We'll go to bible versus quran for the last topic.
1:38:11Daniel HaqiqatjouGo ahead. That's fine. First of all, the Quran
1:38:14Daniel Haqiqatjousays that the
1:38:17Daniel HaqiqatjouTorah and the Injil, the scripture of the past, has been distorted. They change it with their hands.
1:38:23Daniel HaqiqatjouThis is something that we read in the Quran. So that's point number one.
1:38:29Daniel HaqiqatjouPoint number two is that,
1:38:31Daniel Haqiqatjouhe doesn't understand the difference between versus
1:38:34Daniel Haqiqatjouin
1:38:35Daniel HaqiqatjouArabic. Means general.
1:38:38Daniel HaqiqatjouGeneral statement versus a specific statement. So if I point to a book and I say this is a reliable book
1:38:45Daniel Haqiqatjouor this book confirms
1:38:47Daniel Haqiqatjouwhat I'm saying,
1:38:49Daniel HaqiqatjouI don't necessarily mean that there every single line of that book I agree with or every single line of that book is true. I'm making a making an statement,
1:38:58Daniel Haqiqatjoua general statement that the book is true.
1:39:01Daniel HaqiqatjouSam can only have an uncharitable reading or an uncharitable interpretation
1:39:06Daniel Haqiqatjouof the prophet's words in that hadith if we assume that that hadith is authentic. So there is a difference of opinion on the authenticity of that hadith, and he knows it. Second of all, or the third point actually,
1:39:17Daniel Haqiqatjouwhat Torah is the prophet prophet or or is Torah is the the prophet prophet referring
1:39:21Daniel Haqiqatjouto? Is he referring to the Masoretic text? Is he referring to the Dead Sea Scrolls? Is he referring to the Septuagint? Like, which version of the Old Testament is he referring to? And why do you incorrectly assume that the Old Testament that you have, your particular sect or denomination has, is the same thing that the prophet, peace be upon him, is referring to? Like, this is a very flawed logic that you have, Sam, to take this hadith and think that the prophet, peace be upon him, is confirming
1:39:49Daniel Haqiqatjouthe book that you have in your hand today. By the way, there are all these different variations.
1:39:54Daniel HaqiqatjouAnd the fourth point is that if Muslims believed
1:39:57Daniel Haqiqatjouthat the Bible was uncorrupted because of this hadith,
1:40:01Daniel Haqiqatjouwhy didn't they canonize the Bible in the way that the Christians canonize the Old Testament?
1:40:06Daniel HaqiqatjouChristians canonize the Old Testament. Muslims never did that because they never saw the Bible as fully reliable. They never saw the Old Testament as fully reliable. And the actual academic evidence shows that the Bible is not reliable because there's all these different variations, and they change, like, the differences between the Dead Sea Scroll and the Masoretic text and the Septuagint.
1:40:25Daniel HaqiqatjouThese are major theological differences because of changes in wording in the original manuscripts.
1:40:31Daniel HaqiqatjouWhy don't you deal with that?
1:40:32Sam ShamounYeah. Now I have the same time to respond to his lies and bluster.
1:40:36Myron GainesOkay. The and then, and then I'll have you respond. And then we'll end it and go to
1:40:40Daniel HaqiqatjouLet me let me go through, Jake,
1:40:41Sam Shamounbecause I wanted to destroy the last one.
1:40:42Myron GainesMinutes. Go ahead.
1:40:43Sam ShamounAlright. Number one, chapter two verses 78, 79 shows again what you've been doing to the bible, you're doing to your own Quran, and you fall under the condemnation of three seventy eight. You not only have the audacity to twist the scriptures,
1:40:55Sam Shamounyou have the audacity to twist the Quran. Anyone
1:40:58Sam ShamounI'm challenging here. Let let's do a debate on two seventy five seventy nine, your proof text. Mano e mano. Let's debate it. Go read the context. I've done an extensive study and the Muslim commentators.
1:41:10Sam ShamounIt's talking about a particular group identified as Jews who wrote the book with their own hands. It doesn't say all Jews everywhere,
1:41:18Sam Shamounlet alone mention the Christians. You just butchered the Quran like you've been butchering the Bible, but I come back to butcher you. That's number one. Number two,
1:41:27Sam Shamounyou said that the hadith where Mohammed confirmed the Torah, that there are differences of opinion. Well, you probably didn't hear my recent responses to your friend, Jake. Ibn Qayyim al Jausia,
1:41:38Sam Shamounwhich I have quoted. And if you wanna read Arabic because you think you boast about reading Arabic, I'll let you read the Arabic and parse it. Ibn Qayyim al Jausia said, a group of scholars believe the Torah is uncorrupt.
1:41:50Sam ShamounOne of the evidences they gave is the hadith of Abu Dawud.
1:41:55Sam ShamounThey quoted it. They didn't question its authenticity, and even said
1:41:59Sam Shamounit's Hassan, but put aside.
1:42:01Sam ShamounIbn Qayyim al Josiah, for those of you who don't know, he's the disciple of Sheikh Al Islam, Ibn Tamiya, his granddaddy,
1:42:08Sam Shamounwhen it comes to salafi anthropomorphism.
1:42:10Sam ShamounAnd he says these scholars quoted this hadith. I guess they didn't know about the science of hadith classification.
1:42:16Sam ShamounThank god Allah sent you to correct them because they said that when Muhammad saw their Torah,
1:42:21Sam Shamounhe put it on the cushion. He goes, I believe in you and him who revealed you. And then the scholars say he would not have said it if he thought the Torah Torah was corrupted. And among the people that Ibn Qayyim al Jazeia lists as saying the Torah and the gospel are incorruptible
1:42:36Sam Shamounare al Bukhari
1:42:38Sam Shamounand Razi, which you probably don't care much about Razi,
1:42:42Sam Shamounbut imam al Bukhari, the one who collected
1:42:44Daniel HaqiqatjouThirty seconds.
1:42:45Sam ShamounAccording
1:42:46Sam Shamounto you, the hadith. Now my time is up?
1:42:48Myron GainesNo. No. Thirty seconds. You got twenty five seconds.
1:42:50Sam ShamounOkay. The final thing is, if variant readings invalidate the bible, it buries your Quran because you have thousands of variant readings, but then you explain the way as qiraat. But who authorized the qiraat? Show me one verse from your Allah that said that would come and standardize seven readings of the Quran. You make it up as you go along. The gig is up. Game over for your religion.
1:43:10Ijaz AhmadCould I answer? My son, could I can I answer this?
1:43:13Myron GainesAnswer We don't have to close on this topic.
1:43:16Ijaz AhmadWe
1:43:17Ijaz Ahmaddon't have to make up anything because we actually have the genealogical trees of the manuscripts of the Quran, the of the Quran. And they're so exhaustive.
1:43:25Ijaz AhmadThere is not a single textual critic of the Quran that would say that we can't identify the Quran that was at the time of Muhammad that
1:43:34Ijaz Ahmadthey would say that we don't know what it is. This is a contradiction
1:43:38Ijaz Ahmadto what you said just now that they don't know what it is. And secondly, when it comes to the Torah, the prophet peace be upon him never authenticated
1:43:46Ijaz Ahmadyour Torah, never authenticated
1:43:48Ijaz Ahmadthe Torah that you believe in today. There's no one. There's multiple. The prophet peace be upon him authenticated a judgment from that Torah, which is about Rajam. So read the hadith in context. And lastly, there is no disagreement upon this between about the scholars on the tradition of the Quran,
1:44:05Ijaz Ahmadwhether it includes a 114 surahs, no distinction, nothing. This is a difference to you and your scholars who leave books, who leave chapters, who leave the words of Jesus out and change them. They're not the same. So why don't you try to focus on a false Islamic dilemma, a literal false dilemma, you don't answer the question of how the bible could be authentic and reliable. And I'm shocked that as a Christian, you allow Jay to say that it's fine. It's okay if Corinist is being thrown into the trash. I mean, as a Muslim, I have no respect for the bible than Jay and Samuel put together, but it's ridiculous that he allowed that statement to go unchallenged.
1:44:43Ijaz AhmadJay, why would you do that? Throw the bible not under the bus, but in the trash. I'm shocked at that.
1:44:48Jay DyerWell, you're just too silly to think that the bible is reducible to one textual tradition. That's your whole argument's predicate
1:44:54Jay Dyerstupid argument.
1:44:55Ijaz AhmadSay that. That didn't say that.
1:44:56Jay DyerYou just said I asked
1:44:57Ijaz Ahmadwhat one
1:44:58Myron Gainescould have.
1:44:58Jay DyerYou said, by the way, I I don't wanna I wanna I've got other things I wanna talk about. So we got multiple scholars, by the way, that Look. I said both of you said I'm replying to him. I'm replying to him. You said that there are no
1:45:08Ijaz AhmadSome books.
1:45:09Jay DyerModern scholars that believe in the veracity of the text, the old and new testament. I've got three here for you, Leithard, f f Bruce
1:45:16Ijaz AhmadWhich one do they have,
1:45:16Jay Dyersir? Young.
1:45:18Ijaz AhmadWhat's the text, Ephesus?
1:45:19Jay DyerWell known text, Ephesus.
1:45:20Ijaz AhmadWhat's the text, Ephesus?
1:45:21Daniel HaqiqatjouWhich text? Which text?
1:45:23Ijaz AhmadThey
1:45:23Jay Dyersaid. There are concerts.
1:45:24Jay DyerOf variants? The
1:45:27Daniel Haqiqatjouof the Hebrew Hebrew bible? Which We don't it doesn't matter. You don't
1:45:30Jay Dyereven know. Argument is not is there your argument
1:45:33Ijaz AhmadWhy don't you open the book and read from it? Read read the book.
1:45:35Jay DyerRead the book, Jay. The argument is predicated on the historical tradition, and that's not our position.
1:45:57Myron GainesYou
1:45:57Ijaz Ahmadmove on to top can't because they don't
1:45:59Daniel Haqiqatjouexist. You
1:46:01Jay Dyerunderstand? I could tell you
1:46:02Ijaz Ahmadabout that. The fourth century. Guys,
1:46:04Myron Gainesguys, guys. Said
1:46:05Ijaz Ahmadthe third
1:46:05Sam Shamouncentury. Let's get everybody an example. The
1:46:09Jay Dyerorthodox let me give you an example. The orthodox study bible.
1:46:11Myron GainesGuys, guys, guys. Alright. I'm meeting everybody.
1:46:14Myron GainesOkay?
1:46:15Myron GainesI knew that this was gonna go crazy. Anytime we open up the dialogue, it's gonna go crazy. I understand. You guys are not gonna agree on this with the with the text and the scripture.
1:46:21Ijaz AhmadBut I do I love an insult.
1:46:24Myron GainesYeah. Yeah. But here's the thing. He's getting frustrated because he's he answered your question and, you know, you made some personal attacks about throwing things in the trash or whatever. So, obviously, he's gonna respond now.
1:46:33Ijaz AhmadNo. I registered.
1:46:34Sam ShamounStop whining. You just
1:46:36Ijaz AhmadWhat's an attack to be the court.
1:46:37Jay DyerLet's
1:46:41Myron Gainesjust move on to the third topic, guys. Alright.
1:46:44Myron GainesSo the third topic here, guys, is going to be
1:46:48Myron Gainesmorality.
1:46:49Myron GainesBible versus Quran on human rights, which you guys can go ahead and talk about this a bit because I see that there's some personal differences.
1:46:56Myron GainesWho wants to take this one first? Team Christianity or team Islam?
1:47:01Daniel HaqiqatjouThey can go first.
1:47:02Myron GainesTeam Islam wants to go first on this one? Okay.
1:47:05Daniel HaqiqatjouNo. No. No. They can go first.
1:47:06Myron GainesOh, team chrisciani. You guys okay with going first?
1:47:09Myron GainesJay?
1:47:11Jay DyerYeah. I would say that,
1:47:13Jay Dyerif we think about this idea, the transition from the previous topic to the next topic, this idea that
1:47:19Ijaz Ahmadminutes on a clock
1:47:20Myron Gainesreal quick. Sorry. Sorry. Real quick, Jay. We're gonna put four minutes on a clock so that you can go so that we and don't
1:47:26Daniel HaqiqatjouFive minutes. He he gets five minutes. Right? Not four.
1:47:29Myron GainesNo. It's it's four because now we're on the new topic three. It's per round.
1:47:33Daniel HaqiqatjouYeah. So the opening statement. Right?
1:47:34Jay DyerYeah. The openings are five, aren't they?
1:47:36Myron GainesNo. It's opening statement from the very beginning. And then once we get into the debate rounds is four. If you guys want, if this is a topic that you guys wanna expand on more, we can go ahead and give you guys five minutes. But we do have four minutes for all the rounds. But if you guys want five minutes for this particular topic, that's fine.
1:47:49Jay DyerThat's fine. Whatever's fine. Don't Just
1:47:51Daniel Haqiqatjoufive minutes. We need five minutes for our opening.
1:47:53Myron GainesThat's fine. Well, you know what? For this whole round, for this this is the last one. We'll go five minutes for each round three times. No problem.
1:48:00Sam ShamounSo,
1:48:01Myron GainesJay, I got five minutes on the clock for you. Whenever you're ready, we'll turn the clock.
1:48:05Jay DyerYeah. I'll go one or two, and then I'll pass it over to Sam because
1:48:07Daniel HaqiqatjouI don't
1:48:07Jay Dyerknow what his arguments are gonna be. But I would say that, you know, if we think about this previous
1:48:13Jay Dyertopic, it relates to the new topic, which is that there needs to be a consistency of continuity between what was expected
1:48:20Jay Dyerand what was later revealed or given. Now in the Old Testament, we have a pretty consistent pattern, not of wrath or of anything extreme,
1:48:28Jay Dyerbut rather Jesus confirms in many places the morality of the Old Testament.
1:48:33Jay DyerFor example, in Matthew five, people think that the the beatitudes are contrary to the law. In fact, Leviticus says that you have to love your neighbor. Jesus says that you can't exact personal revenge, and that was actually part of the Old Testament law. So for us, Christ's exposition of the Old Testament is a consistent
1:48:49Jay Dyertrue exposition of what the Torah always meant. Jesus isn't contradicting it. In fact, he gave it. He's the one that fulfills it.
1:48:57Jay DyerWhen we get to the time of Islam, we have a totally different, expectation.
1:49:01Jay DyerFor example, many of these ceremonial ideas that are borrowed from Judaism and Christianity actually have no meaning and no significance.
1:49:09Jay DyerThey're not clear as to why we do them. It's just what Allah wills. Well, in Christianity, there's a specific meaning for things like an altar, things like cleansing, baptism, etcetera, washings. When I debated Daniel, we talked about this issue of continuity, how God always had an altar, a temple,
1:49:25Jay Dyera priesthood.
1:49:27Jay DyerIslam has none of that. So there's no continuity there in terms of morality or in terms of the theology. Islam has a, totally different set of standards that are completely arbitrary. Sam, I'll pass it over to you.
1:49:38Sam ShamounAlright. Yes. Now remember why
1:49:40Sam ShamounI had asked to do the previous debate before this one? Guys, remember, they failed miserably to show that their prophet did not confirm the scriptures. Any attack on the scriptures again proves that Muhammad is a false prophet antichrist.
1:49:52Sam ShamounHe is, but for other reasons.
1:49:54Sam ShamounAnd Muhammad confirmed all the scriptures in circulation. He didn't make any difference between
1:49:59Sam Shamounthe variations or the versions. To him, they're all God's work. Now with that said, that means Muhammad's morality must live up to the biblical morality. Otherwise,
1:50:10Sam Shamounhe is a false prophet.
1:50:11Sam ShamounAnd so when we look at even the Torah, even though Jesus is a consummation, and we are told clearly in the Old Testament and in the teachings of Christ that God,
1:50:21Sam Shamounin his love, condescended to the Israelites
1:50:24Sam Shamounand allow things he did not like. For example, if you go to first Samuel chapter eight, if you go to first Chronicles chapter 22 verse eight, first Chronicles 28 verse three, and on and on it goes. And then our the words of our Lord, Matthew 19,
1:50:37Sam Shamounthe Lord allowed and tolerate things that he himself was not pleased with until Jesus came and perfected the revelation and took us to our standard. Muhammad devolves, and his ethics are even worse than that found in the Old Testament. And I can give you several examples. In 20 Deuteronomy 24 verse one and four,
1:50:54Sam Shamounthe true god of Moses says that if I divorce a woman, she marries and he divorces us or
1:51:00Sam Shamounhe dies, I can't take her back. It's an abomination. What god says is an abomination. Muhammad says is.
1:51:06Sam ShamounThe only way you can take your spouse back. In chapter two verses two two twenty nine to two thirty of the Quran, If Daniel
1:51:14Sam Shamounmakes the mistake of irrevocably divorcing his wife, she has to marry someone else. He has to have sex with her. And then if he divorces her, he can take her back, adding insult to injury. So the god of Moses says, Muhammad's god stands condemned. Another aspect. Deuteronomy twenty one ten to 14, unlike what we find in the Quran and the sunnah,
1:51:32Sam Shamounwhere Daniel's god says, if you're on jihad,
1:51:35Sam Shamounyou can take women captive, even married one, you can then molest them
1:51:40Sam Shamouneven though they won't call it rape because
1:51:42Sam Shamounby taking them captive, you've nullified their marriage, have sex with them, and sell them off. They're your property. Whereas the god of Moses says in Deuteronomy twenty one ten to 14, if you find a captive woman, you make her your wife. She's not married. You give her a month to mourn, shave her head, and you give her the full status of a wife and his light wife. And if you divorce her, she's free. You don't sell her. So even though the old testament is the ideal standard, even the old testament condemns the cron and the sunnah as being barbaric and draconian
1:52:11Sam Shamounbeneath even the standard of the Old Testament, which does not live up to the standard of Jesus Christ. And any attack in the Bible, they again prove Muhammad is a fraud. And I hope you attack the Bible because Muhammad is a fraud, but for other reasons. Glory to Christ.
1:52:23Myron GainesForty five seconds still.
1:52:25Sam ShamounAlright. Well yeah. So keep that in mind.
1:52:28Sam ShamounAs Jay said, the Old Testament is fulfilled in Christ. Jesus perfects the Old Testament. Muhammad perverts the Old Testament, let alone the New Testament so that he doesn't even live up to the standard of the Old Testament, which is an ideal. Jesus is a standard. Thirty. And when you compare Muhammad to Jesus, he's beneath the feet of Christ. But
1:52:45Myron GainesYou still got 25. Still good?
1:52:47Sam ShamounOkay. Because alright. So any attack I'm warning you guys. Keep attacking the Old Testament. Make my day because your prophet confirmed that Old Testament in his possession.
1:52:57Sam ShamounMake my day. And to answer the question, why didn't canonize it? Because your Quran says, the Torah is for the Jews, the gospel is for the Christians, the Quran is for you, but all of you follow it because in it is guidance and light. Very simple, your Quran refutes you, Daniel. Do a better job studying Alright. Your
1:53:12Myron GainesFive minutes on the clock. The topic again is morality, Quran versus the Bible on human rights.
1:53:18Myron GainesThis is round one of topic three,
1:53:21Myron Gainesand this is gonna be team Our
1:53:23Daniel Haqiqatjouopening statement. We we haven't done the opening.
1:53:25Myron GainesYeah. Of course. Yeah. Yeah. So five five minutes on o'clock. Don't worry.
1:53:28Daniel HaqiqatjouOkay.
1:53:29Daniel HaqiqatjouShould I start?
1:53:30Myron GainesYeah. Yeah. Five minutes for everybody on each round of this since this is the last one.
1:53:34Daniel HaqiqatjouOkay.
1:53:35Daniel HaqiqatjouChristian Christians often attack the morality of Islam. They say Muhammad, peace be upon him, taught war and taught misogyny, but Jesus teaches love and peace. They say Muhammad promoted
1:53:46Daniel Haqiqatjouchild marriage,
1:53:48Daniel Haqiqatjouwhereas Jesus believes women should only be married when they reach 18.
1:53:52Daniel HaqiqatjouBut this Christian perspective is contradicted by the Bible. The Bible promotes far more war,
1:53:58Daniel Haqiqatjoukilling, and misogyny than anything in the Quran or the life of the prophet Muhammad, peace be upon. Let's go through a list. The Bible says in Leviticus chapter 20 to execute a woman who engages in adultery.
1:54:09Daniel HaqiqatjouMany Christians will say, oh, this is the old covenant. It's no longer applicable.
1:54:15Daniel HaqiqatjouFine. That may be true, but it doesn't change the fact that God
1:54:19Daniel Haqiqatjoucommanded executing
1:54:21Daniel Haqiqatjouadulterers at one point in history. And God, according to the trinity, is also Jesus.
1:54:27Daniel HaqiqatjouSo Jesus commanded the Israelites to kill adulterers.
1:54:31Daniel HaqiqatjouDoes that sound very peaceful?
1:54:33Daniel HaqiqatjouLater in Leviticus, Jesus says homosexuals
1:54:35Daniel Haqiqatjoushould be executed.
1:54:36Daniel HaqiqatjouIf a father sleeps with his daughter-in-law,
1:54:39Daniel Haqiqatjouthey should both be executed.
1:54:40Daniel HaqiqatjouHere's a brief list of sins that Jesus
1:54:44Daniel Haqiqatjourequires you to be executed for according to the Old Testament.
1:54:48Daniel HaqiqatjouEngaging in idolatry,
1:54:50Daniel Haqiqatjoubreaking the Sabbath. So an Israelite three if an Israelite three thousand years ago accidentally did some work on Saturday to break the Sabbath, Jesus wanted that Israelite to be executed.
1:55:02Daniel HaqiqatjouA son striking his parents deserve death, or even if he curses his parents, Jesus say kill him. A sorceress,
1:55:09Daniel HaqiqatjouJesus say kill him. A blasphemer,
1:55:11Daniel HaqiqatjouJesus says kill him. A brother, son, daughter, wife, or friend who entices you to worship other gods, it says in Deuteronomy 13.
1:55:19Daniel HaqiqatjouJesus says stone them to death and have no pity on them. So Jesus is pro death penalty for a lot of things. To be fair, Islam also has the death penalty for adultery, sorcery, and blasphemy.
1:55:31Daniel HaqiqatjouBut if we're judging who is more pro death penalty, Jesus or Muhammad,
1:55:37Daniel HaqiqatjouJesus wins hands down according to the Bible. Jesus is also progenocide.
1:55:42Daniel HaqiqatjouIn Deuteronomy 20, Jesus commands Moses to attack the Canaanites and other peoples and, quote, leave nothing alive that breathes.
1:55:49Daniel HaqiqatjouIn Deuteronomy chapter two, Moses requested safe passage for the wandering Hebrew people from Sihon, king of Heshbon, but the king refused.
1:55:58Daniel HaqiqatjouJesus then commands his followers to conquer and possess Sihon's lands. As Moses says, quote, the lord our god, meaning Jesus, delivered him before us, and we smote him and his sons and all his people, and we took all his cities at that time and utterly destroyed the men and the women and the little ones of every city. We left none to remain.
1:56:17Daniel HaqiqatjouNow to be fair, Muhammad peace be upon him also commands war in some context, but the difference is Muhammad, peace be upon him, doesn't command Muslims to kill women, children, and babies.
1:56:27Daniel HaqiqatjouHe says the opposite. He says to spare women and children. But Jesus, according to the Bible,
1:56:32Daniel Haqiqatjouis not so merciful.
1:56:33Daniel HaqiqatjouThen we go to slavery. The old and new testament both endorse slavery, including taking girls as slaves for potential brides.
1:56:40Daniel HaqiqatjouNumbers 31 says
1:56:42Daniel Haqiqatjouchapter 31 says, Moses said to them, have you let all the women live? Now kill every male among the little ones and kill every woman who has known man by lying with him, but all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves,
1:56:57Daniel Haqiqatjouend quote. Again, Islam also endorses slavery and concubinage,
1:57:02Daniel Haqiqatjoubut the difference is that in the Bible, Jesus says you can sell your own daughter into slavery. Exodus chapter 21 verse seven, Jesus says, when a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are.
1:57:16Daniel HaqiqatjouUnlike Jesus,
1:57:18Daniel HaqiqatjouIslam doesn't allow parents to sell their little little girls into slavery.
1:57:22Daniel HaqiqatjouFinally, on the topic of age of marriage, nowhere in the Bible does Jesus specify a minimum age for marriage. Jesus had no problem with child marriage. And if he did, he never told anyone, even though it was a common practice in his time in the Old Testament times.
1:57:38Daniel HaqiqatjouFurthermore, many church authorities
1:57:40Daniel Haqiqatjouendorsed child marriage. For example, Saint Augustine himself was set to marry a 10 year old when he was 31, before he became a priest. Thomas Aquinas says that sex depends on maturity,
1:57:51Daniel Haqiqatjouwhich he says happens at 12 years old for girls. And he says it can even happen earlier for some girls. The Catholic encyclopedia
1:57:59Daniel Haqiqatjoualso notes that Mary
1:58:01Daniel Haqiqatjouwas betrothed to Joseph when she was just a 12 year old little girl. And in the canon law in Catholicism,
1:58:07Daniel Haqiqatjouthis minimum age of marriage
1:58:08Sam Shamounis I
1:58:10Daniel Haqiqatjouwant the Christian audience to know that the Bible and the Catholic church have fully endorsed marrying girls as young as 12 or even younger. So if you want to attack Islam and the prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, and say that they endorse pedophilia,
1:58:23Daniel Haqiqatjouwell, so does your bible, and so does the church, and so does Jesus.
1:58:26Myron Gaines10.
1:58:26Daniel HaqiqatjouNote that I'm not condemning the bible or the church for this reason. So this is not a tu quoque fallacy as Jay is sure to say, but I'm just pointing out the lack of consistency
1:58:36Daniel Haqiqatjouamong many questions. Thank you.
1:58:38Myron GainesAlright.
1:58:39Myron GainesOkay. What I'll do real quick
1:58:40Jay DyerYou know, want a a brief response.
1:58:42Ijaz AhmadSir. First, I don't think have time left? So did you have
1:58:44Myron Gainestime left? No. That yeah. That's that's the rest of the time.
1:58:47Myron GainesWhat I'll do is okay. So,
1:58:49Myron Gainesmo Bills, can we have the chats ready? I'm gonna let them go another round, then I'll read the chats after this because, obviously, I know that they won't wanna really respond to this.
1:58:56Myron GainesYeah. Pull the chats up on the side and we'll have it. So so don't worry. I'm I'm I was gonna read the chats, but I I know that you guys really wanna respond. So I'm gonna have Jay, you wanted to go first.
1:59:04Sam ShamounRight? Okay.
1:59:07Myron GainesWe're gonna put five minutes on the clock. I'll read chats after they finish both rounds of this. We're at round two of
1:59:14Myron Gainesthe bible verse the Quran. Five minutes on the clock. Go ahead, Jay. Take it away.
1:59:17Jay DyerYeah. So the first thing I would say that you'll notice the double standard again,
1:59:21Jay Dyerbecause Daniel tried to argue quite a bit for continuity there. But you'll notice that earlier we had heard the Bible was corrupted.
1:59:28Jay DyerBut now all of these verses from the old testament somehow match up to a kind of continuity with Islam. But wait a minute. I thought all the the old testament, Jesus, all this was was corrupted.
1:59:37Jay DyerIt's only corrupted
1:59:38Jay Dyerwhen it doesn't suit their purpose or their argumentation. That's a double standard. Next, I would say that even in the Old Testament, the rabbinic tradition, Jews did not always act upon these penalties. The many of these penalties that were listed were about ritual impurity. Not all of them, but many of them were. And ritual impurity does carry over into the New Testament when in in our view, what happens is that not so much the state, although Christian states have at times enacted some things like the the penalty for the things that were listed.
2:00:07Jay DyerIt's ritual impurity in terms of coming to the liturgy. So in the Orthodox and in the Catholic church, we both share this position. You do confess your sins before you come to the Eucharist. That's because if you have committed these sins, you are ritually and, in a sense, morally because the ritual refers to the moral. You're morally impure, and so that's the purpose of confession. So many of these things do carry over, just not in the way that they assume,
2:00:28Jay Dyerand I would say that that's a much better notion of continuity.
2:00:31Jay DyerI'll let you go ahead, Sam.
2:00:33Sam ShamounYeah. I want Daniel to thank I wanna thank Daniel for proving that Jesus is his god, Allah. Why?
2:00:40Sam ShamounBecause according to the Quran in chapter five verse 20 to 26, it was his Allah
2:00:45Sam Shamounthat ordered Moses and the Israelites to enter Canaan and wipe it out. Chapter five verse twenty twenty six. Also, it was his Allah
2:00:53Sam Shamounthat ordered Saul, which the Quran erroneously
2:00:56Sam Shamouncalls because
2:00:58Sam Shamounhe fought Jalut.
2:01:00Sam ShamounAnd, again, want him to justify Talut as a form of Saul. In chapter two verse two forty six to two fifty one, where it was his Allah whom he said was Jesus. So he just said that Jesus is Allah, Muhammad's god and judge. In chapter two verse two forty six to two fifty one, who ordered Saul on these expeditions, and there's not a word of condemnation by his prophet
2:01:20Sam Shamounsaying that what Saul did to the livestock and children was an abomination to Allah. That means he's better than his god and his prophet. And, again, I wanna thank Daniel for proving that Jesus is Allah, his god, because in volume
2:01:34Sam Shamounfour number three fifty three, ask me to read it because I don't wanna eat up my time. There in an authentic narration,
2:01:41Sam Shamounhis prophet
2:01:42Sam Shamounrefers to a prophet
2:01:44Sam Shamounwho went in an expedition jihad, and the son stood still, and his prophet narrates the injunctions of Deuteronomy chapter 20
2:01:52Sam Shamounand also alludes to Joshua chapter seven ten. So that means Jesus is Allah, his god, Muhammad's judge, because according to your prophet, your god sanctioned these marriages.
2:02:04Sam ShamounI'm not married. I'm sorry. These wars. So that means you're better than your god. Now ironically, he quoted Exodus twenty one seven, but as he's been doing all night, all day and all night, he didn't quote the entire context.
2:02:16Sam ShamounBecause if you read the context, the reason why she couldn't be let out is because a woman that time can't be let go to be on her own. She has to be under the protection of the master or her father, but then the text says that she's to be married,
2:02:30Sam Shamounnot raped like what Muhammad did in chapter four verse 24 in the sunnah when they took married
2:02:36Sam Shamouncaptives and raped them and sold them. Exodus twenty one seven to 11 says he is to marry her or her son marries her. And if he cannot be fair with her, she is to be divorced and let go.
2:02:47Sam ShamounSo conveniently,
2:02:49Sam Shamounhe doesn't show that this context, again, condemns Muhammad and his morality.
2:02:53Sam ShamounAnd ironically, he mentions about the age
2:02:56Sam Shamounof marriage. Well, in the Talmud,
2:02:59Sam Shamounbecause Muhammad quotes the Talmud, and I'll show you where,
2:03:02Sam Shamouneven his prophet said that according to the Torah, he confused the Talmud with the Torah, a woman has to be past the age of 12
2:03:10Sam Shamounand show signs of maturity. And he called that injunction in the Talmud,
2:03:15Sam Shamounthe Torah, but that means even by that standard, his prophet is condemned to hell because at the age of 54, he slept with a nine year old minor and sanctioned pedophilia because there is no limit or age
2:03:28Sam Shamounin Islamic sharia, according to his scholars,
2:03:31Sam Shamounthat would say a woman has to be yay high or
2:03:34Sam Shamounthis age in order for a man to mount her. And in the same tolman, it says, you're not to give a girl who's mature enough for marriage to an old man.
2:03:44Sam ShamounAnd Mohammed was 54 years old. You don't get any older than that. He was old enough to be her great granddaddy.
2:03:51Sam ShamounSo I'm glad you're appealing to the Jewish Christian sources because these very sources say, your prophet is a false prophet and antichrist
2:03:57Sam Shamoununder the feet of Jesus. How much time I have?
2:03:59Myron GainesTwenty seconds.
2:04:00Ijaz AhmadMommy. Okay.
2:04:01Sam ShamounSo yeah. Ironically,
2:04:03Sam Shamounyou mentioned it. Let me show you where it says in the Talmud
2:04:06Sam Shamounright here where it says that you cannot
2:04:09Sam Shamoungive
2:04:11Sam Shamouna young girl mature enough for marriage, which is past the age of 12 to an old man. Here, let me read. This verse is referring to one who marries his daughter to an old man.
2:04:19Myron GainesThis time.
2:04:20Ijaz AhmadShe she will okay. Time's up.
2:04:21Myron GainesThis time. I I
2:04:22Sam Shamounknow you want it to be up.
2:04:24Ijaz AhmadNo. It's physically up.
2:04:26Ijaz AhmadAlright.
2:04:27Daniel HaqiqatjouSo I'm just showing a picture of Mario here because he's a famous plumber,
2:04:31Daniel Haqiqatjouand he's with his princess. So I think that has significance. Plumber is for Sam.
2:04:36Sam ShamounYeah. Can I can
2:04:37Ijaz AhmadI just ask you a question, Daniel? This comes as a this comes
2:04:40Daniel Haqiqatjouas a of time. Okay, Seve?
2:04:41Myron GainesYou you have a chance to ask him a questions. You have a chance to ask him a question when we do the fire round, but, I'm gonna turn it back to team Islam here. We're gonna give you guys five
2:04:51Myron Gainesno. We got one more round.
2:04:53Myron GainesFive for five minutes that you guys got. So this is gonna be team Islam now. It's gonna be on you guys, five minutes.
2:05:01Sam ShamounYour question?
2:05:02Daniel HaqiqatjouChristian audience
2:05:03Daniel Haqiqatjouthat your champions here did not mention child marriage. Are they dodging that issue? Why didn't Jay or Sam mention child marriage? I thought that Islam promotes pedophilia.
2:05:16Daniel HaqiqatjouYou know why they didn't address child marriage? Because they know that canon law in the Catholic church
2:05:22Daniel Haqiqatjouand Thomas Aquinas endorse
2:05:25Daniel Haqiqatjouchild marriage and marriage at young at age 12, 12 years old. Is that pedophilia?
2:05:30Daniel HaqiqatjouSam, why don't you answer that question? How about you, Jay? You wanna condemn the church
2:05:35Daniel Haqiqatjoufor endorsing
2:05:36Daniel Haqiqatjoupedophilia?
2:05:37Daniel HaqiqatjouAnd then he makes a big deal about how, oh, the Old Testament, you take the captives for marriage
2:05:43Daniel Haqiqatjouas if that's any different. You're taking captives. They're not it's not a consensual relationship, Sam. Like, who are you trying to fool? Your the Bible says, take these women and then shave their heads and then marry them. It's not giving you them humiliate them. It's not giving them an option.
2:06:00Daniel HaqiqatjouSo I'm not condemning notice.
2:06:02Daniel HaqiqatjouGet the logic right, Sam and Jay. I'm not condemning the bible for slavery. I believe that Islam also endorses slavery. Islam also endorses war, but we don't go as far as Jesus in commanding killing babies like he does in, Deuteronomy and Numbers. I don't condemn Christianity or the bible or Catholicism for this minor marriage, marrying girls as young as nine, 10, 11. I don't condemn that because I think that there's nothing wrong with that. But I want your audience to know that you don't find anything wrong with that. You don't find anything wrong with a 12 year old getting married. Because that's what the Catholic church that's their morality,
2:06:37Daniel Haqiqatjouand that's what this section of a debate is about. It's about morality. So I'm giving it to you,
2:06:44Ijaz AhmadYep. I'm just interested
2:06:46Ijaz Ahmadin some so just a quick question. Why didn't you mention anything about abusing wives,
2:06:52Ijaz Ahmadbeaten wives? I understand why you mentioned rape. I mean, I can understand why you did that.
2:06:57Sam ShamounExactly like mo
2:06:58Ijaz AhmadWhat is the god of the bible? Which I mean, your uncle? Which one? So just to be clear here, Sam, can you let us know what does the bible teach about violence
2:07:07Ijaz Ahmadagainst your wives and the limits at which you can humiliate them? Let's keep in mind here that Jesus in Matthew 23
2:07:15Ijaz Ahmadcommands the disciples and Christians to do and believe as the pharisees believe. And if I'm not wrong, they really liked young girls, three years older than one day. I mean, Jesus seemed okay with that, but are you okay with that? Some are you okay with that side of Jesus? Seems a bit naughty for you, isn't it?
2:07:34Daniel HaqiqatjouYeah. We were pointing out plumbers because I think Sam has a lot of experience with plumbers. Yeah. He wants to insult hey. Don't interrupt our time, brother. Don't interrupt don't interrupt our time. Put that moderator
2:07:43Daniel HaqiqatjouModerator.
2:07:44Myron GainesJust let him So We'll put some seconds on there.
2:07:46Daniel HaqiqatjouWe want
2:07:47Myron GainesGo ahead. We wanted
2:07:48Daniel Haqiqatjouto be courteous and not bring this stuff up. But when Sam gets down and dirty and starts insulting the prophet Muhammad,
2:07:55Daniel Haqiqatjoupeace be upon him, then we have to respond in kind. We have to insult Sam and point out his,
2:08:00Daniel Haqiqatjouvile history and the kinds of filth that he puts on his channel. So we're just playing fair. You wanted to go down and dirty and use filthy language, then we're gonna bring up the fact that a plumber basically stole your wife, and you and you had certain charges against you. That's all. That's all. Now condemn child condemn no. Our time is not up.
2:08:17Myron GainesThey got two minutes. We have two minutes.
2:08:19Daniel HaqiqatjouWe have some time left. So we want to hear you condemn child marriage. I didn't and to go back to what Jay said, I never said anything about continuity.
2:08:29Daniel HaqiqatjouI never said that, oh, what we find in the old testament is continuous in terms of morality
2:08:34Daniel Haqiqatjouwith the Quran. I never claimed this. You just pulled this out of your back pocket, Jay. We were not talking about rituals. We're talking about practice of practices of war.
2:08:43Daniel HaqiqatjouThe thing is that the Bible says to genocide little babies,
2:08:47Daniel Haqiqatjouto leave nothing that breathes alive.
2:08:50Daniel HaqiqatjouThe Quran never says this. Yes. The Quran commands war. There is the story of Moses going to battle. Yeah. That exists, but there's no genocide
2:08:57Daniel Haqiqatjouthat is mentioned because the Quran is correcting
2:09:00Daniel Haqiqatjouthe false,
2:09:02Daniel Haqiqatjounarratives that are found in the Old Testament, all the additions that we find in all the different variations
2:09:07Daniel Haqiqatjouof the, bible that we've discussed in the previous section. So that's the difference.
2:09:12Daniel HaqiqatjouAnd, yes, please, everyone is waiting. Stop dodging the issue. Condemn child marriage. Tell us that the Catholic church is really a pedophilia organization
2:09:21Daniel Haqiqatjouover the centuries because canon law not the Talmud. We're not talking about the Talmud. We're talking about canon law says that 12 years old is the age of marriage, acceptable age of marriage. So condemn that. Please. We're waiting, Jay and Sam.
2:09:35Daniel HaqiqatjouGo ahead, Ejaz.
2:09:37Ijaz AhmadYeah. I mean, they wouldn't condemn that because they accept it, historically, at least. Let's just be clear here. We're not saying that this is hypocritical,
2:09:46Ijaz Ahmadbut you're not consistent. Who cares about the victuals and Greece? When it comes down to the meat and the matter? You guys approved child marriage. Jesus approved it. The pharisees approved it, and this is what you believe. I really want some to speak on whether or not a person can abuse their wife, whether a person can take donation money, spend it incorrectly,
2:10:06Ijaz Ahmadmaybe spend it on young girls. Wouldn't be surprised to find you an Epstein's list, to be honest. So I just really want some to ask and answer the question.
2:10:15Ijaz AhmadDo you accept, Sam? Do you accept child marriage? Yes or no? But based on what we would like to know. Does Jesus condemn it? Does Jay condemn it? Who condemns it?
2:10:24Sam ShamounAlright. That's
2:10:25Myron Gainestime. That's
2:10:26Ijaz Ahmadtime. Sorry.
2:10:26Myron GainesThat's That's interrupt. Okay.
2:10:28Ijaz AhmadYeah. Five seconds.
2:10:29Daniel HaqiqatjouWanna I'll
2:10:29Ijaz AhmadFive seconds. He took it back five seconds.
2:10:31Myron GainesOkay.
2:10:31Ijaz AhmadLet me just reclaim the five seconds.
2:10:33Myron GainesYeah. But We're gonna
2:10:34Ijaz AhmadDon't demand something from us that you yourself aren't consistent with.
2:10:38Myron GainesOkay. We're gonna add ten seconds to the clock for team Christianity for that. Okay.
2:10:42Myron GainesI'm gonna give you guys five minutes on the clock. This is gonna be, the beginning of round three.
2:10:47Myron GainesOkay?
2:10:48Myron GainesSo this is gonna
2:10:48Sam Shamounbe the
2:10:49Ijaz Ahmadfinal round?
2:10:49Myron GainesThe final round on Okay.
2:10:51Myron GainesBible verse Quran, morality,
2:10:54Myron Gaineshuman morality.
2:10:56Myron GainesSo I'll put five minutes on the clock.
2:10:58Myron GainesWhat I'll do is
2:10:59Myron GainesI don't wanna interrupt this. So what we'll do is we'll we'll read the chats after they complete this round, and then before they do the the fire round where they, you
2:11:07Myron Gainesknow, open dialogue, then we'll do the chats. Sorry to you guys. I don't wanna interrupt it. You know what I mean? The flow and everything else like that. My job here is to moderate, give you guys the best show. Don't wanna interrupt it with super chats right now. I'll do it after we finish this, and then we'll do the the final thing. So around three, 05:10 on the clock for team Christianity. I know, Sam, you got a lot to say, so go ahead.
2:11:25Sam ShamounYeah. But, Jay, do you wanna say something real quick?
2:11:26Jay DyerYeah. Briefly. So I was referring to the topic that Daniel and I debated
2:11:31Jay Dyerand the way he's using these texts here in this debate. Both of those situations show that Daniel only uses the Old Testament when it suits his purposes, and he's not consistent with it. In that debate, he argued that Islam has more continuity with the Old Testament because of, well, there's some loose similarities between imams and places where you go and pray in a mosque or whatever. That has nothing to do with the continuity that the argument and that debate was about. Here, he's using it as another way to say, these are the texts in the Old Testament that are valid to teach this. So my point is that he's arbitrary, and he has a double standard, and that's an internal critique, which neither of them have ever never understood. I've made this point in every debate we have. They don't know what an internal critique is. They think that it means that you hold to your position. That's not what an internal critique is. It's just showing that you have a double standard. I'll, yeah, let it go to you, Sam.
2:12:18Sam ShamounYeah. Now let me get back and answer the questions. They think that I'm gonna run like they've been running by the grace of Jesus Christ. Now as far as those accusations,
2:12:26Sam Shamounlet's assume those accusations are true. All you're proving is that I'm a sinner, unfaithful to the teachings of Christ. But I was acting like Muhammad because Muhammad did a lot of plumbing with a lot of women other than his own wives because when he sanctioned
2:12:38Sam Shamounthe rape of married women,
2:12:40Sam Shamounraping them and selling them off as chattel, that's condemned by
2:12:44Sam Shamounthe god of Moses in Deuteronomy twenty one ten to 14. So, Lord, forgive me for acting like Muhammad because I know acting like Muhammad
2:12:51Sam Shamounleads me to hell, so may I have mercy. Now let's come back to the issue.
2:12:55Sam ShamounYou kept saying
2:12:57Sam Shamounthat, well, we condemn child marriage. Absolutely.
2:13:00Sam ShamounAnd here, Ezekiel 16 verses six to eight, first Corinthians seven verse chapter seven verse 36,
2:13:07Sam Shamounthe in
2:13:08Sam Shamounchapter two, as well as atonement. The reason why they say 12, if you are in context, and I'm gonna challenge Daniel,
2:13:15Sam Shamoungive me the full quotation of Thomas Aquinas, unedit it because you're like your prophet. You like to edit and quote out of context.
2:13:22Sam ShamounThey're
2:13:23Sam Shamounplacing it at twelve because that's when they assume that a woman will reach puberty. And even then they say,
2:13:29Sam Shamounshe has to wait a little time
2:13:32Sam Shamounbeyond
2:13:33Sam Shamountwelve.
2:13:34Sam ShamounFor example, here in the atonement says, not only 12, but sometime after that when her breasts are formed because they took that as indication
2:13:41Sam Shamounthat she's now pubescent
2:13:43Sam Shamounand that she's now knowledgeable enough to choose marriage or reject marriage. So even by their standards, you condemn Muhammad to hell. Because according to that very standard,
2:13:52Sam ShamounMuhammad
2:13:54Sam Shamounmounted a nine year old. He was 54.
2:13:57Sam ShamounSo Christian and Jewish sources would condemn him as a pedophile
2:14:01Sam Shamounwho desired a nine year old, and he mounted her, and then your Quran in 65 verse four doesn't even have the age of 12 as the limit. So, yes, I condemn it, which is why I condemn your prophet. And as far as violence, well, it's your Quran that says that you guys can beat your wives. So if you wanna accuse me of that, more power to you. Lord Jesus, forgive me. I'm a sinner because I was acting like
2:14:22Jay DyerI have one point, Sam, too, I wanna add just to point out. You can Our Roman I'm not Catholic. And as a side note, I don't care what Thomas Aquinas says, but irregardless
2:14:31Jay Dyerof all that, it's not even true in Catholic canon law that that's the age. It's 16 for a guy, and it's 14 for a woman, which, again, presupposes that puberty has already happened.
2:14:40Sam ShamounNow how much time we have?
2:14:42Myron GainesTwo minute. One fifty five.
2:14:44Sam ShamounYeah. And now notice again, he they just proved that Jesus is Allah, Muhammad's god, because their god, Allah, who is Jesus, he's the one who sanctioned
2:14:52Sam Shamounwhat Moses did in Canaan, what Joshua did, and I gave him the source. Now notice what they did. Oh, yeah. It's just, you know, an instruction
2:15:00Sam Shamounto go ahead and carry out these expeditions generally, but where does it say that in the Quran? And here's my challenge to Daniel and Ejaz. Show me in your Quran the explicit condemnation,
2:15:10Sam Shamounprohibition,
2:15:12Sam Shamounexplicit condemnation,
2:15:13Sam Shamounprohibition of killing children.
2:15:16Sam ShamounBecause I'll show you in your Quran where your own God destroy
2:15:20Sam Shamounwomen, children, cattle. For example, in the flood of Moses, I'm sorry, Noah, because the Quran does confuse, two floods, one at time of Moses and Noah, and as well as Sodom and Gomorrah where he pelt them with stones. Can you show me where your god discriminated
2:15:35Sam Shamounand said, oh, okay. Hey, stone. That's a baby. Avoid him. That's California, but that pagan right there, strike him on the head. Show it to me, and you're fully aware that your own hadith mentioned
2:15:46Sam Shamounwhere your prophet allowed
2:15:49Sam Shamounwomen and children to be killed indiscriminately.
2:15:52Sam ShamounThat's even in your own hadith. But, again, like you've doing with the bible, you've been butchering your Quran and your sunnah. And I don't blame you because if I was a Muslim, I'd have to resort to these tactics because you can't defend a lie. Muhammad is dead and Jesus is alive. End of story.
2:16:07Myron GainesThirty seconds.
2:16:08Sam ShamounAlright. So that's it. Anytime they attack the morality,
2:16:11Sam Shamounthey just prove Muhammad is a false prophet. Their God Allah is a false god, and they are for other reasons. Because your prophet confirms the Bible, my Bible doesn't confirm Muhammad. And they keep forgetting Jesus is now the standard. And even though the Old Testament is not the standard, even the laws of the Old Testament are better than your prophet. And notice what he said about captives. The reason why she's taken captive, there was a war, but that shows due to humanity of the God of Moses.
2:16:36Daniel HaqiqatjouYou don't
2:16:37Sam Shamountake a captive woman and rape her like your prophet did.
2:16:40Myron GainesAlright.
2:16:42Myron GainesSo what we're gonna do now is I'm gonna read the chats real quick, and then we're gonna go ahead and, do a
2:16:47Myron Gainesand what I'll do is I'll probably put ten minutes on the clock since it's the last one where you guys can go back and forth with your discourse.
2:16:53Myron GainesAnd we'll do the same thing.
2:16:55Myron GainesQuestion, answer. Question, answer. We'll try to bop it around. And guys, if you could please answer each other's questions, please.
2:17:02Myron GainesSo I'll read these chats real quick, then we'll get right back into it. What do we got here, Bills?
2:17:08Myron GainesOkay.
2:17:09Myron GainesDan Price says, the guy in the top corner's opening statement was trash. Water could be solid. Liquid could be gas, but there are some things in different father forms. Father, son, Holy Ghost, of course. And just so you guys know, debaters, the chatter is gonna be biased towards their religion, so it is what it is. Silasaur says, Sam, why would you say the words prove
2:17:26Myron Gainesirrational in a debate about religion? Why is the left hand such an issue? Please mind etiquette when you're in a debate because pointless jab derailed the conversation. Okay. That's from the sound of the sword. We got,
2:17:36Myron GainesMark Humeyron. I know you're trying to be professional timing rounds, but people wanna see bloodbath, so you should add an extra last round where both parties just go at it. We did we got that. Don't worry. We we're already on that. Mark you.
2:17:47Myron GainesThis Sam guy is unserious. He goes and creates his own understanding of Islam, shows his integrity. I bet you'll find many contradictions
2:17:53Myron Gainesif his understanding of Christianity is investigated. Okay.
2:17:57Myron GainesHow come Islam was created at 635 and the gospel of John was created at one hundred AD? John was an eyewitness. He saw, lived, and eat eaten with Jesus. Should I believe in a cave or a witness of Jesus Christ? Okay. Let Andrew Wilson in. This is from army army kilo.
2:18:11Myron GainesGot snow Valentine says, just asking, aren't we all going to hell under Islam and there's nothing we can do to correct it because of our sinful nature? Okay. Snow Valentine.
2:18:21Myron GainesWe got here, Meyer, thank you for bringing this great debate together in respect to all four men who are participating. Can I recommend Christian Price to join the next debate? Sam can ask to join if you approve. Thanks again.
2:18:31Sam ShamounYeah. Prince. He means prince.
2:18:33Myron GainesOkay. That's from Bezmenov. And, guys, sorry my voice is like this. I'm a little sick. So, that's why I've been, like, meeting myself and coughing on the side to try not to interrupt the debate. Do the Muslims even know who Canaanites were? They were an abomination descendants of Nephilim, fallen angels, demons, etcetera. Okay? Muslims struggle with grasping
2:18:50Myron Gainesnuance concepts and have low cognitive flexibility. That's from Saint Graper. This is why Sam's in the kitchen always, man, stay cooking us from stone.
2:18:57Myron GainesYeah. T three. So you guys you guys got supportive on both sides. T three day young and says, this might be to a schizo, but Bezirka and Segal, big spiritual influencers. One thing Segal said that has me learning more Christian is, why is Jesus the most mocked figure if he wasn't God? Okay?
2:19:13Myron GainesHamza says, Islam translates to submission to God in Arabic language. Allah translates to God in Arabic and Aramaic languages. Christianity comes from the word messiah, and Greek language refers to prophet Jesus. Judaism comes from the tribe of Judah.
2:19:25Myron GainesOnly Islam doesn't associate anyone with God. The first human being and prophet Adam submitted himself to God, not the Messiah or Judah tribe. Okay. And then the man Matt says, if you follow any religion to the t with fear or just blind faith, I'm sorry, but you are a slave and cannot think for yourself. There's no separation between us and God. We are all part of God. We all do what Jesus did, who was black, by the way, and his name was Yeshua.
2:19:46Myron GainesYeah. Yeah. Yeshua. Modern society has forced the masses to believe that we are all like peasants to some omnipresent omnipotent
2:19:52Myron Gainesbeing, which couldn't be farther from the truth. Everyone here needs to study Navelle Goddard's cheek teachings.
2:19:58Myron GainesOkay. WFF, thanks guys for making this happen. Question for Sam and Jay. If prophet Jesus, peace be upon him, were to come back, which will happen, what would happen to the Muslims who believe in him as a prophet but not as God? Anyways, guys, we have much more in common than indifferences. So he asked this question for
2:20:14Myron Gainesteam Christianity. It says here,
2:20:17Myron Gainesif Jesus came back, what and what would happen to the Muslims who believe him as a prophet versus as a god?
2:20:24Sam ShamounThat's the question you want us to answer. Jay, do you wanna take it first or you want me to take it?
2:20:27Jay DyerGo ahead.
2:20:28Sam ShamounYeah. When you say that the Muslims reject Jesus, well, you gotta take into consideration.
2:20:34Sam ShamounWhen you mean Muslims, not all Muslims know what they're rejecting. Not all Muslims know the Islam Islam.
2:20:39Sam ShamounNot all Muslims
2:20:41Sam Shamounare educated. The Lord Jesus is a God of infinite compassion and mercy.
2:20:46Sam ShamounHe sees your situation.
2:20:49Sam ShamounHe meets you where you're at. And if to no fault of your own, you didn't know the truth of the gospel, he extends mercy.
2:20:54Sam ShamounSo this is my belief. Again, I'm speaking from my perspective. Jay may have a different perspective. So you can't just generalize all Muslims because not all Muslims know Islam. They don't even know what Christians believe. Just like Christians may not know their faith, right, let alone what Muslims believe. God is a god of infinite mercy, and I don't think the Muslims would disagree with me because he'd take into consideration
2:21:15Sam Shamounyour circumstances,
2:21:16Sam Shamounyour knowledge, and your status and position in life. That's my answer. I don't know if Jay wants to answer some add something to it.
2:21:25Myron GainesJay, what do you think?
2:21:27Myron GainesWhat's your answer to that?
2:21:28Sam ShamounOh, you want Me?
2:21:29Myron GainesOh, yeah. Yeah.
2:21:30Sam ShamounYeah. If you have one answer,
2:21:31Jay Dyercan No. I think, I mean, I think, well, I pretty much agree. I think Romans two, Paul addresses this. He says that those without law will be judged on the basis of, moral law or the natural law that they have within them. So, you know Okay. We don't know people's destinies other than, God tells us to tell them to repent,
2:21:47Jay Dyerand then ultimately, god is their merciful judge.
2:21:50Myron GainesAlright.
2:21:51Myron GainesAny more chats in there? Are we alright.
2:21:54Myron GainesI'm a fly through these. Okay. Victor says, wise man once said, you can't solve today's problems politically because men's problems are spiritual. All agree? Okay. Sola fi's uphold this is from gambler.
2:22:05Myron GainesSola fi's uphold God's transcendence and reject anthropo
2:22:08Myron Gainesanthropomorphism.
2:22:09Myron GainesThey interpret chronic descriptions like hand or face as symbolic of Allah's power, not literal human traits, ensuring that his attributes
2:22:16Myron Gainesremain distinct from human characteristics.
2:22:19Myron GainesOkay?
2:22:19MoeYeah. TTS.
2:22:21Myron GainesAristotle online says Islamic Tawheed has been proven contradict this from TTS?
2:22:26Myron GainesYes. Okay. Go ahead. We can play it.
2:22:28Myron GainesThis came in earlier too, if I'm not mistaken. Yeah. It came in way early.
2:22:33Myron GainesI can't even
2:22:34Speaker 6hear it. Islamic tawheed has been proven contradictory,
2:22:37Speaker 6but the response from team Islam is our scholars don't think tawheed is contradictory.
2:22:45Myron GainesOkay. Was a 100. Alright, David.
2:22:48Myron GainesThe 6,000 says Allah made mercy into 100 parts and that he's
2:22:52Myron Gainesset sent down one part to the earth.
2:22:55Myron GainesHow does Allah's divine attribute have parts? How did Allah's attribute,
2:23:00Myron Gaineswhich is divine and uncreated,
2:23:02Myron Gainesfree from limitation, enter into creation? Okay, David.
2:23:06Myron GainesRespond to doctor Haitham
2:23:08Myron GainesSidky,
2:23:09Myron Gaineswhere he has shown that the Quran MSS exhibit
2:23:14Myron Gainesdue to discrepancies,
2:23:15Myron GainesMedin, the first four copies.
2:23:18Myron GainesThese were codified in today's Quran. Also, doctor Eleanor,
2:23:21Myron GainesSellard that the Sunna MSS
2:23:24Myron Gaineswas a separate accepted codex.
2:23:27Myron GainesOkay? And then Aristotle says, global duke? Oh, global duke. This level of hand waving requires tight titanium risks Gobbledy
2:23:35Myron Gainesgook. Gobbledy gook. Okay. Then AC one says, why are you always quoting, quote mining Justin Martyr from Jehovah's Witness and ignoring the rest of the rebuttal, lying your balls off? That's from AC one. Okay. And then David says, for Muslims, is it true that today's Quran is not based on early Quranic manuscripts rather on the work of a man named Abu Ahmed
2:23:52Myron Gainesal Dani and his medieval
2:23:55Myron GainesWhy
2:23:55Speaker 6you always quote mining Justin Martyr from Jehovah's
2:23:58Speaker 6Witness and ignoring the rest in the rebuttal? Okay. Lying your balls off. Okay.
2:24:03Sam ShamounWhose whose voice is that?
2:24:05Myron GainesIt's it's a it's a random person.
2:24:07Ijaz AhmadIt's a talk
2:24:08Myron Gainesyou know, it's a talk to speech.
2:24:10Sam ShamounNo. That's great. I like his voice.
2:24:12Myron GainesIt says here okay.
2:24:14Myron GainesThis is what doctor Magin,
2:24:16Myron GainesTouten, and others have studied. How can that be trusted?
2:24:20Myron GainesSo they're saying today's Quran is not based on early chronic manuscripts rather on the work of a man named Abu Amr al Dani. Is that true, guys, or you guys wanna answer that?
2:24:28Ijaz AhmadThat's not true. And doctor is a friend and colleague. This is ridiculous.
2:24:33Ijaz AhmadHe doesn't accept that whatsoever. In fact, he actually attests to the fact that the Quran is reliable it's in the lifetime of the prophet, peace be upon him.
2:24:40Myron GainesOkay.
2:24:41Myron GainesLast few here. I can book the top renowned
2:24:44Myron GainesIsraelite official scholars and, camp leaders for simulcast debates, learn the proper interpretation of our sacred text from the descendants of the biblical authors. IG. Okay. He puts his IG. ALC says, Jesus said, love your enemy but Mohammed endorsed scraping slaves and selling them for ransom.
2:25:00Myron GainesSegal, a Muslim fourteen thirty eight. Google it. In what world would anyone think these two prophets come from the same God? Okay.
2:25:08Myron GainesAristotle online says, okay.
2:25:11Myron GainesAlright. We're caught up. So okay, guys. I'm gonna go ahead and put ten minutes on the clock.
2:25:15Myron GainesIs that okay with you guys? Because I've noticed that we won over time.
2:25:18Sam ShamounWhat we're doing now? That's this final part, just to get an idea.
2:25:20Myron GainesThis is gonna be a question answer open dialogue between you guys, and this is gonna be on the morality
2:25:25Myron Gainesof the Quran versus the bible. I'm putting ten minutes on the clock because I've noticed that we've
2:25:29Sam ShamounBefore you do that, is this the last this is it?
2:25:31Myron GainesYeah. This is the last one.
2:25:32Sam ShamounYep. So this last ten minutes?
2:25:34Myron GainesThis is the last ten minutes right here. So it's gonna be a question and answer. I will and, guys, please try to answer each other's questions. So the way it goes is you ask your question, they answer. After the person that answers it dictates the next question and who it goes to. Fair?
2:25:46Sam ShamounOh, yes. Fine.
2:25:47Myron GainesThat's awesome. Who wants to kick it off first?
2:25:49Sam ShamounJay. Okay.
2:25:50Myron GainesGo ahead.
2:25:50Sam ShamounGo ahead, Dan.
2:25:52Daniel HaqiqatjouWell, I I heard Sam condemn child marriage, and he asked me for a quote from Thomas Aquinas. I can read the quote if you want, but he does say
2:26:00Daniel HaqiqatjouYou want me to
2:26:01Ijaz Ahmadread it?
2:26:01Sam ShamounThe entirety. Yes.
2:26:03Daniel HaqiqatjouOkay. I'll read it. But then my question for Jay, he can think about it in the meantime. Sam condemned child marriage. I wonder if Jay will also condemn child marriage despite the the tradition
2:26:13Daniel Haqiqatjouthe church tradition. Here's the
2:26:16Daniel Haqiqatjouquote. Let me just
2:26:18Sam Shamounbring it here.
2:26:21Daniel HaqiqatjouI'll read the whole thing. Since,
2:26:23Daniel Haqiqatjousince marriage is affected by way of a contract, it comes under the ordinance of positive law like other contracts. Consequently, according to law, it's determined that marriage may not be contracted before
2:26:34Daniel Haqiqatjouthe age of discretion when each party is capable of sufficient deliberation about marriage and of mutual fulfillment of the marriage debt, and that marriages otherwise contracted are void.
2:26:44Daniel HaqiqatjouNow for the most part, this age is 14 years old for males and 12 year old 12 year old for women.
2:26:53Daniel HaqiqatjouBut since the ordinance of positive law are consequent upon what happens in the majority of cases, if anyone reached the required perfection
2:27:01Daniel Haqiqatjoubefore the aforesaid age,
2:27:04Daniel Haqiqatjouso that nature and reason are sufficiently developed to supply the lack of age, the marriage is not annulled.
2:27:11Daniel HaqiqatjouWherefore, if the parties who marry before the age of puberty
2:27:15Daniel Haqiqatjouhave marital intercourse
2:27:17Daniel Haqiqatjoubefore the aforesaid age of 12,
2:27:20Daniel Haqiqatjoutheir marriage is nonetheless perpetually
2:27:22Daniel Haqiqatjouindissoluble,
2:27:24Daniel Haqiqatjouend quote.
2:27:25Myron GainesI That's the stop sign.
2:27:26Daniel HaqiqatjouSo my my question now to Jay is, does he condemn child marriage?
2:27:30Myron GainesOkay. Alright. Stop the clock. We can start the clock back up again because you're reading something lengthy and I didn't want time to get Ian by that. Go ahead, Jay. Sorry.
2:27:37Jay DyerSo there's ambiguity about, quote, child. I'm not a Catholic. So, I don't care what Thomas Aquinas says. He's not part of my tradition, and even Thomas Aquinas' positions on many things are not part of the overall Roman Catholic position. Roman Catholic canon law in 1083
2:27:52Jay Dyersays, again, that the age, is 16 for a guy, 14 for a girl. Orthodox canon law is different. In Greece, for example, the age of consent
2:28:00Speaker 6Question for team Islam.
2:28:02Speaker 6Is the Quran created or uncreated? Answer
2:28:05Speaker 6without commuting shirt,
2:28:07Speaker 6violating Tawheed,
2:28:09Speaker 6or violating Tanzi,
2:28:11Speaker 6or making the Quran unknowable. Sorry about that. Think this question is irrelevant,
2:28:15Speaker 6you have no grounds to criticize the trinity.
2:28:18Myron GainesWe'll have a we'll we'll we'll address that after the fact. We'll put that back on the clock and continue on. Sorry.
2:28:25Jay DyerYeah. So orthodox canon law is there's not a one size fits all in the sense of
2:28:29Jay Dyerof being identical to, like, Rome Catholic ideas. So
2:28:33Jay Dyerfor example, in Greece, the parents can be involved, and it's 18.
2:28:37Jay DyerIf the parents agree, it could be a it can be 15.
2:28:40Jay DyerSo it's we don't have a one size fits all, but for us, adult
2:28:44Jay Dyeror not, it's not a child marriage because, again, as Sam was pointing out, the assumption would be that they're past puberty.
2:28:52Myron GainesAlright. Jay, now you, question is to you. Go ahead and toss it to anyone from the team as well.
2:29:01Jay DyerIn terms of morality, what is the purpose of the rituals
2:29:05Jay Dyerand the various
2:29:08Jay Dyerpostures or cleansings that you might do in your religion,
2:29:11Jay Dyerif they come out of a tradition that has a specific purpose for them that's that now your religion divorces
2:29:18Jay Dyerit from that from that tradition, I'm curious what the purpose of those rituals are. Is it just because you're told to do it?
2:29:25Daniel HaqiqatjouWell, that's your assumption that it's coming from the bible or you the Christian tradition or a Jewish tradition.
2:29:31Daniel HaqiqatjouThat's not that's your assumption that we don't share. The ritual purity is,
2:29:36Daniel Haqiqatjoupart of it is what God has commanded,
2:29:39Daniel Haqiqatjouand it's supposed to be,
2:29:41Daniel Haqiqatjoucleanliness
2:29:42Daniel Haqiqatjouwill bring you closer to God. Cleanliness is from godliness. This is a principle,
2:29:47Daniel Haqiqatjouwithin Islam.
2:29:48Daniel HaqiqatjouSo ritual purity before prayer, like wudu or making a rasul,
2:29:53Daniel Haqiqatjouafter certain,
2:29:55Daniel Haqiqatjouactions like intercourse.
2:29:57Daniel HaqiqatjouYou have to do a ritual
2:29:59Daniel Haqiqatjouwash.
2:30:00Daniel HaqiqatjouThese are commands of God, and it's understood that water has been created as something to purify.
2:30:06Daniel HaqiqatjouBut it's not something where yeah. You'll find other,
2:30:11Daniel Haqiqatjouprophets in the Bible talking about ritual purity.
2:30:14Daniel HaqiqatjouWe
2:30:15Daniel Haqiqatjouacknowledge
2:30:16Daniel Haqiqatjouthat these religions
2:30:18Daniel Haqiqatjouwere originally from god. So you do find ritual,
2:30:22Daniel Haqiqatjoupurity in the bible or in Christianity,
2:30:26Daniel Haqiqatjoubut that doesn't mean that Islam copied
2:30:28Daniel Haqiqatjouthese traditions.
2:30:30Daniel HaqiqatjouThe source is the same. It's coming from the same god.
2:30:34Daniel HaqiqatjouSo I don't see how this is some kind of interrogation of Islamic morality.
2:30:39Jay DyerWell, if it's from the same god, then it's continuity.
2:30:43Daniel HaqiqatjouNo. There's no. No. How is that continuity? How is that continuity?
2:30:46Jay DyerThe same god. You just said that.
2:30:48Daniel HaqiqatjouYeah. It's the same source. Where did I say continuity?
2:30:51Jay DyerWell, if the if the rituals came to the our religion from the same god to yours, that's continuity.
2:30:56Daniel HaqiqatjouNo. God can change.
2:30:57Jay DyerThat's what he wants. Continuity.
2:30:59Daniel HaqiqatjouGod God can have a ritual for a specific race. Like in Judaism,
2:31:03Daniel Haqiqatjouyou can burn calves.
2:31:05Daniel HaqiqatjouYou can burn certain livestock as a form of ritual
2:31:09Daniel Haqiqatjoupractice.
2:31:10Daniel HaqiqatjouThat doesn't mean God has required that for Christians or Muslims.
2:31:15Daniel HaqiqatjouIt's still the same God, but there isn't continuity. But there's not continuity.
2:31:19Daniel HaqiqatjouThere's not continuity.
2:31:20Daniel HaqiqatjouBecause I said that it's coming from the same source. You're claiming that there's continuity.
2:31:25Jay DyerBut didn't you argue for continuity in our debate?
2:31:28Daniel HaqiqatjouNo. You didn't understand what I argued for in our debate.
2:31:30Jay DyerWell, you argued for continuity.
2:31:32Daniel HaqiqatjouYou didn't understand that debate.
2:31:34Jay DyerI don't I don't understand when you said
2:31:35Daniel HaqiqatjouI don't know why you're bringing it up. I don't know why you're bringing it up in this debate. You're still
2:31:39Jay DyerOh, yeah. Because I'm I'm living in your
2:31:45Daniel Haqiqatjouin your head rent free. I'm living in your head rent free. You're still debating, like, a previous debate.
2:31:50Jay DyerYou mean because 90% of the comments that you lost?
2:31:52Daniel HaqiqatjouWe're talking about child marriage. We're talking about child marriage, and you can't even give a condemnation. I can't say moral question. Neither you neither you or Sam can say Thomas Aquinas neither you or or Sam can say that Thomas Aquinas are pedophile.
2:32:05Daniel HaqiqatjouHe's a pedophile.
2:32:06Jay DyerI don't follow Thomas Aquinas. You're bringing irrelevant
2:32:08Daniel HaqiqatjouWhy can't you condemn him? Why can't you condemn
2:32:11Daniel HaqiqatjouAquinas?
2:32:11Daniel HaqiqatjouYeah. Why can't you?
2:32:13Jay DyerI don't have a problem. I said, I I don't
2:32:14Daniel HaqiqatjouYou condemn him.
2:32:15Jay DyerI do condemn
2:32:16Daniel HaqiqatjouYou say he's a pedophile. Do you not hear me? He's a pedophile then.
2:32:18Sam ShamounHe's a pedophile. That? He what pedophile? Did he sleep with a girl like your prophet did?
2:32:22Daniel HaqiqatjouHe said it's fine too. He said he said it's fine for 12 years old or younger. I read the quote, Sam. I read the quote.
2:32:28Sam ShamounAnd he's dressing illegal
2:32:29Daniel HaqiqatjouI read the quote.
2:32:29Jay DyerIn case you're implicating a child.
2:32:31Daniel HaqiqatjouHe says you can have intercourse
2:32:33Daniel Haqiqatjouwith under 12. Intercourse with under 12.
2:32:36Myron GainesIs that
2:32:36Sam Shamouna pedophilia?
2:32:37Myron GainesDan, Dan, I think it's your turn to ask a question.
2:32:39Daniel HaqiqatjouI read the entire page.
2:32:40Myron GainesUnless you wanna turn it to it's it's That's your your question. Dan, it's your it's your turn to ask a question unless you wanna turn it to Sam and he can ask you guys something.
2:32:47Daniel HaqiqatjouYeah. So my question is that we didn't just talk about child marriage. We talked about punishment for blasphemy,
2:32:52Daniel Haqiqatjoupunishment for adultery, execution,
2:32:55Daniel Haqiqatjoupunishment for homosexuality.
2:32:58Daniel HaqiqatjouDo you condemn all of these things in the Old Testament? Do you think that these are wrong things? When the I read the quotes. The Bible is saying that you execute one who blasphemes. Do you condemn that, or do you think that that's that the morality you might think that it's not applicable today. Fine. But Jesus is still commanding that for that time, for a previous time. So do you think that is morally justified?
2:33:20Myron GainesAlright. That's Sam. Go ahead, Sam.
2:33:21Sam ShamounNow let me answer. Yeah. Now let me give you a thorough answer.
2:33:25Sam ShamounListen. Let's see if you're gonna get it. If you read these laws in the context from which you're quoting,
2:33:31Sam Shamoununlike your prophet who didn't give any sign that his god was backing him up, why don't you read these statements in context? In the context,
2:33:39Sam Shamounyour Allah, who you admit is Jesus, according to Quran, that was Allah, what you just admit is Jesus. So Jesus is Muhammad's Allah, his god.
2:33:46Sam ShamounIn the context of those passages,
2:33:49Sam Shamoungod appears to the nation visibly in a pillar of cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night.
2:33:56Sam ShamounNot only in front of the Israelites, but he also appears to the Egyptians,
2:34:00Sam Shamounleaving them with no excuse to defy his commands. In other words, unlike your Elah,
2:34:07Sam Shamounthe god of the Bible proved his existence, the god of the Bible set up a theocracy on earth. The God of the Bible gave them ample proof not to doubt his existence
2:34:17Sam Shamounso that when they see him in the pillar of cloud, pillar of fire by night, hear his voice audibly and see the signs so that even the Egyptians saw the pillar of cloud, Exodus fourteen
2:34:27Sam Shamounnineteen to 31,
2:34:29Sam Shamounas well as Joshua two eight to 11. He gave the nations no excuse for defying him. So when God shows up, then he has every right to tell you how to live. And if you defy him, he has every right to take away your life because he's the god over death and life. This is unlike your prophet who could not provide any proof that God was speaking through him, who could not provide that his God even exists. All he did was he borrowed the collateral of the Jews and Christians,
2:34:57Sam Shamounclaimed to be a prophet like the prophets found in the Jewish Christian tradition. But when he's challenged to prove that God sent him, failed
2:35:06Sam Shamounmiserably.
2:35:07Sam ShamounSo you're comparing apples and pineapples. So if God shows up and I see and I know that he exists, he has every right to tell me what to do and every right to inflict any punishment he deems fit, unlike your Eli who doesn't exist.
2:35:20Myron GainesAlright. I'll tell
2:35:20Ijaz Ahmadyou if
2:35:20Myron Gainesyou got it. You wanna turn it back to them with a question, or or team Christianity, did you turn you you answered the question. Now it's back to you guys. You got two minutes left on the clock.
2:35:27Sam ShamounNow, Jay, do you wanna ask or you want me to ask?
2:35:29Jay DyerWell, I wanna address first of all, I'll let you ask the question, but I wanna reply since we have two minutes that you'll notice that when I brought up the line of argumentation that Daniel had in our debate, he didn't wanna go there. He immediately said that I was that he was living rent free in my head. In other words, deflecting away from the fact that I've called him out on an inconsistency because in that debate, he was arguing for Islam having more continuity with the laws of the old testament. That doesn't suit his purpose here, and so he doesn't want to go to that, and he has to deflect away. Oh, I live in your head rent free.
2:36:01Jay DyerNo. That's because I just caught you in a double standard. You're using two different,
2:36:05Jay Dyerstandards as usual. So, Sam, I'll I'll talk to you.
2:36:08Sam ShamounHow many seconds we have to for this
2:36:10Myron GainesA minute and a half. Have you got a question or something that you wanna ask the team
2:36:13Sam Shamounas I got a question. Oh, I'm sorry.
2:36:14Myron GainesYeah. Okay.
2:36:15Sam ShamounLet me ask these guys a question because they have they have the final right? They're gonna answer. This is the final one. Right? Yep. Okay. Okay. Now I want you guys to show me anywhere in your Quran, explicit,
2:36:24Sam Shamounnot inference, anywhere in your Quran.
2:36:27Sam ShamounExplicit.
2:36:28Sam ShamounWhere it says, do not kill women and children. In light of all the verses, such as the ones I mentioned, where your god rain stones on Sodom and Gomorrah indiscriminately,
2:36:38Sam Shamounkilling children and and women and cattle, as well as flooding the people of Noah, including women, children, and cattle. Can you show me a single verse in the Quran where when he orders your prophet to go and perform jihad, not to kill women and children? When his pattern is, he destroys everything?
2:36:54Daniel HaqiqatjouAlright. No. Yeah.
2:36:55Myron GainesTeam Islam, go ahead and we'll put the clock back on just so we can ask.
2:36:58Daniel HaqiqatjouSo first of all, we don't just go by the Quran. We also go by the example of the prophet, peace be upon him. There's the Quran and sunnah. So there are explicit hadith that say do not kill women and children and the elderly, and we see this in the example of the sala f as well. Ijaz, go ahead and read the, hadith for them.
2:37:16Ijaz AhmadYeah. It's pretty simple. The first is a woman was found killed in one of these battles. So the messenger of God
2:37:23Ijaz Ahmadforbid the killing of women and children, Sahih Muslim and Kitab al Jihad.
2:37:28Ijaz AhmadThe first caliph gave
2:37:31Ijaz Ahmadthe following command to his arms. So this is other than the prophet, but his followers, immediate followers. Do not kill a woman or children, one aged, informed person. Do not cut down fruit bearing trees. Do not destroy and inhabit a place. Do not slaughter sheep or camels except for food. Do not burn bees and do not scatter them. Do not steal from the booty and do not be cowardly. That would be tough, guess, Ephesusam. But just to be clear here, just
2:37:56Ijaz Ahmadto so we established this, when you claimed that the Quran approved rape, this was your claim,
2:38:02Ijaz Ahmadand you you claimed that the Quran approved genocide
2:38:05Ijaz Ahmadwhen you spoke of soul,
2:38:07Ijaz Ahmadwhy does the Quran do that?
2:38:08Myron GainesThat is true.
2:38:09Ijaz AhmadIt never does that once. And the Quran actually says in the same chapter I'm not asking a question. I'm making a statement. The Quran actually says in that chapter, do not transgress beyond the limits which Allah has established. And we know what those limits are based on the durations we just read.
2:38:24Daniel HaqiqatjouYeah. Also, to answer what
2:38:26Daniel HaqiqatjouSam said that, oh, there's a pillar of cloud that the Israelites saw, so therefore, you can kill homosexuals.
2:38:32Daniel HaqiqatjouHe's ignorant of Mosaic law because the Jews who lived after the time of Sinai,
2:38:37Daniel Haqiqatjouthey were still bound by the Old Testament law. They were still bound by the Mosaic law. They were still killing the blasphemers,
2:38:44Daniel Haqiqatjoukilling the sorcerers, killing the adulterers, executing them,
2:38:48Daniel Haqiqatjouexecuting
2:38:49Daniel Haqiqatjouanyone who,
2:38:50Daniel Haqiqatjoutempted you to worship idols. You have to execute them. That's what Jesus says. Those, Jews didn't see pillars of clouds. They didn't see any miracles. They're living after the time of Sinai. So your biblical in
2:39:02Daniel Haqiqatjouor your exegesis is completely off base. And, also, Jay is misrepresenting
2:39:08Daniel Haqiqatjouthe Catholic church. He's misrepresenting
2:39:11Daniel Haqiqatjoucanon law. I'll read more quotes for you. In the twelfth century, canon law jurist Gratian stated that consent for marriage could not take place before the age of 12 old 12 years old for female and 14 year old for males. Also, and betrothal could not take place before the age of seven year old from females and males as that is the age of reason. So it's actually seven years old and 12 years old. The church of England, after breaking away from the Roman Catholic church, carried with it the same minimum age requirements.
2:39:41Daniel HaqiqatjouAge of consent for marriage of 12 years old for girls and 14 year olds for boys
2:39:47Daniel Haqiqatjouis written into English law. And then the Catholic church before the 1917
2:39:52Daniel Haqiqatjoucode of canon law, the minimum age for a dissolvable betrothal was seven years.
2:39:57Daniel HaqiqatjouSeven years in the contractees.
2:40:00Daniel HaqiqatjouThe minimal age for a valid marriage was puberty or nominally 14 years for males and 12 years old for females. This is the 1917
2:40:09Daniel Haqiqatjoucode,
2:40:11Daniel Haqiqatjouof the church. So this is something that was up until very recently the Catholic doctrine. I referenced Thomas Aquinas. I referenced Gratian.
2:40:20Daniel HaqiqatjouSam is a heretic. He's throwing all of the Catholic church under the bus. He's he's he's throwing the canon law under the bus, and Jay refuses to say that these are all pedophiles. Jay refuses to condemn Thomas Aquinas as a pedophile. That's shocking. I hope all the Christian listeners, especially the protestants listening, note that these heretics, Sam and Jay, are down with pedophilia.
2:40:41Sam ShamounAlright. Did you
2:40:42Jay Dyernot hear my my
2:40:44Jay Dyercondemnation? I explicitly said I don't have a problem condemning Aquinas, so you just blew past me.
2:40:48Daniel HaqiqatjouAs a pedophile. A pedophile. Can I answer? Yeah. Do
2:40:51Daniel Haqiqatjouwe answer? Do we ask a question now
2:40:52Myron Gainesor what? Well, he he he asked you guys a question. You guys gave a very lengthy answer.
2:40:58Myron GainesOkay. So it is on is it is on team Christianity here. I'll let them get the last one because we're way over time here, and I know, you have primary
2:41:05Daniel Haqiqatjousmear down.
2:41:05Sam ShamounBecause of the time.
2:41:06Myron GainesYeah. Let you guys
2:41:07Sam ShamounDaniel, pretend to listen better. I know you're gonna embarrass yourself. You just destroyed your prophet again. Because if you read the Old Testament, God didn't stop at Sinai,
2:41:15Sam Shamounand you're confusing me and not reading the Bible. I think you wanna be an ummi like your prophet. Continue reading the rest of the Old Testament. God kept sending prophets with miracles and signs to keep ratifying
2:41:25Sam Shamounand confirming
2:41:27Sam Shamounhis existence and that this is his law, and he has a right to put to death whomever he wants. Because in first Kings 18,
2:41:33Sam ShamounElijah had a shout down with your spiritual ancestors because your god, all of the Quran, is Baal,
2:41:39Sam Shamounand their god showed up miraculously that your god is fake and Yahweh is true. So, no, I am consistent with the Old Testament narrative. All throughout, god shows up miraculously through prophets to confirm, I am god. This is my covenant. I have a right to do with you as I see fit. Nothing for your prophet, the prophet of Baal, because your god is a fake god, and the god revealed in Jesus is the true god. End of story. Bye bye. You lost.
2:42:05Daniel HaqiqatjouYeah. Oh, you saw you saw a miracle, therefore, kill the adulterer. Oh, you saw miracle, therefore, kill the homos. Yeah. That's that makes sense. That's real great morality there.
2:42:14Myron GainesI got two questions for the Muslims here, I think, from the supporters here, real quick, and then we'll close this thing out. But thank you guys. That was a fantastic debate, by the way.
2:42:23Daniel HaqiqatjouFour points.
2:42:24Myron GainesI was taking a whole bunch of notes. I learned a bunch myself.
2:42:27Myron GainesI was
2:42:28Myron Gaineslearning a bunch because I'm not the most religious guy, so was great to see both perspectives here.
2:42:33Myron GainesRazor sharp one thirty five says,
2:42:35Myron Gainesit's a TTS? Okay.
2:42:37Myron GainesJust came in. Alright. So we'll let this play. It's actually a talk to speech here. It's Sam's from
2:42:41Speaker 6your voice. Curious here. How is sin defined in Islam and in Christianity?
2:42:46Speaker 6Or to say it this way, what is sin in Islam and in Christianity?
2:42:51Myron GainesAlright. So I'll let each team just give their quick definition of it.
2:42:56Sam ShamounYou wanted to answer, Jay? Or
2:42:59Jay DyerWe would just say that any sin is just simply a moral move of the will against the good away from the good against God's law.
2:43:05Myron GainesThat's it. Amen.
2:43:07Myron GainesFor Islam?
2:43:09Myron GainesOr do you guys agree with that definition?
2:43:12Daniel HaqiqatjouYeah. I mean, it's a similar definition. Like, God sends a law, and then if you disobey it, it doesn't matter you have to see a miracle to obey the law. Like, God sends the law. If you disobey it, then that's a sin.
2:43:23Daniel HaqiqatjouAnd then you can ask for forgiveness, and God will forgive your sins.
2:43:27Myron GainesAlright.
2:43:28Myron GainesWhat else do we got here? Danny Dana says, is it sooner to get ridden by,
2:43:33Myron Gainesnaked
2:43:34Myron Gainesdark jinn like Mohammed did? Question for Jizz and homo and Daniel the bro. Alright.
2:43:40Daniel HaqiqatjouIt's raging. Yeah. They're raging. Yeah. I think I got under their skin.
2:43:44Myron GainesIslam only says, forty
2:43:46Myron Gainestwo eleven in the Quran makes it pretty clear that Allah having body parts is to be taken figuratively.
2:43:51Myron GainesOkay?
2:43:53Myron GainesThis thing is like split down the middle with people that support,
2:43:56Myron Gainesyou know, both either or the the religions.
2:43:59Myron GainesAristotle says, question for team Islam, is the Quran created or uncreated?
2:44:03Myron GainesAnswer without committing shirk,
2:44:06Myron Gainesviolating Tawheed, or violating tenzi,
2:44:08Myron Gainesor making the Quran unknowable.
2:44:10Myron GainesIf you think this question is irrelevant, you have no grounds to criticize the trinity.
2:44:15Ijaz AhmadThe Quran is uncreated.
2:44:17Ijaz AhmadWe don't
2:44:17Speaker 6know Question for team Islam. Okay. Is the Quran created or uncreated?
2:44:22Speaker 6Answer without commuting shirk,
2:44:24Speaker 6violating Tawheed,
2:44:26Speaker 6or violating Tanzi,
2:44:27Speaker 6or making the Quran unknowable. If you think this question is irrelevant,
2:44:32Speaker 6you have no grounds to criticize the trinity.
2:44:35Myron GainesWell, you were answering us. Sorry.
2:44:38Myron GainesGo go ahead, brother.
2:44:41Daniel HaqiqatjouReady, John.
2:44:41Ijaz AhmadI guess. Ahead. The Quran is uncreated. We don't dispute this. We don't doubt this.
2:44:46Daniel HaqiqatjouYeah. The claim The claim was that the Trinity is incoherent because there are multiple minds.
2:44:52Daniel HaqiqatjouThat was our critique. That's why this is either polytheism or it's incoherent. The Quran is uncreated, but it doesn't the Quran doesn't have a mind. The Quran is not a person. No one has claimed this, but people do claim. Christian theologians do claim that Jesus has a mind. Is it the same mind as the fathers and the holy spirits? There's a debate. There's not no clarity in the Christian tradition because it's a contradiction. That's why. But we don't have the same problem in Islam. The Quran doesn't have a mind, so how does it contradict monotheism?
2:45:21Daniel HaqiqatjouNo one could explain to that. No one could that
2:45:25Myron Gainesin this debate. Please go ahead and
2:45:26Jay DyerSo because there's a debate, it's not clear. Would that mean that because there's a debate in Islam amongst all the schools, none of it's clear about the attributes?
2:45:33Daniel HaqiqatjouNo one debates about Islam having They don't debate the attributes. Gods having
2:45:37Jay DyerThey don't debate the attributes?
2:45:39Daniel HaqiqatjouThat I have multiple attributes. That doesn't mean I'm multiple people. Like, how is how is that contradict
2:45:45Jay Dyertelling me you don't debate?
2:45:45Daniel HaqiqatjouHow does that contradict debate on
2:45:49Jay DyerYou know you
2:45:50Jay Dyerdebate, Tawheed.
2:45:51Daniel HaqiqatjouThere are I'm not saying that there are debates, that there are no debates in Islam. There are debates in Islamic god theology. Exactly.
2:45:58Jay DyerSo that was a bad argument.
2:45:58Daniel HaqiqatjouNo. No. But there's debate in Christianity about the nature of god. There isn't that same debate about there's being three in one.
2:46:06Myron GainesYes. There
2:46:06Daniel Haqiqatjouis. What is the difference between father and the son? Do they have the same knowledge? Do they have the same will?
2:46:12Daniel HaqiqatjouDo they have the same knowledge? Do they have the same will? We don't have the same debate. Beau Branson. We don't have that same debate in Islam.
2:46:19Jay DyerThat was the point. The same debate.
2:46:20Daniel HaqiqatjouYou said debate means it's not clear. No.
2:46:22Jay DyerI said if there's debate, it's not clear. That's a fallacy. You're a fallacy machine.
2:46:25Daniel HaqiqatjouNo. And that's not what I said, actually.
2:46:27Ijaz AhmadVery okay.
2:46:28Daniel HaqiqatjouFollow the argument. That's the problem.
2:46:30Myron GainesAlright. I'll, fly through these real quick and close out. Chris Percussion says, hi, Sam. It's board Cody. I have a question for, Ajaz. You're citing scholars to prove reliability,
2:46:40Myron Gainesbut plenty of scholars,
2:46:47Myron Gainesthe NT traces to actual words of Jesus. What scholar says Quran traces actual Jesus?
2:46:53Ijaz AhmadDo you want me to answer this? It's quite simple.
2:46:55Myron GainesSure. Go ahead.
2:46:56Ijaz AhmadYeah. So scholars do not say it traces back to the very words of Jesus. They actually say it goes back to the ideas about what Jesus could have said. It's called the episcopal voxo, what Jesus could have said. There is no way to determine that Jesus actually said anything that is claimed in the New Testament. And between the gospels themselves, they're not dateable to the first century CE, which is the big problem. We can largely assume that they're from the second century onwards as some claimed in his interview with,
2:47:24Ijaz AhmadI think, was the name. Yeah.
2:47:26Ijaz AhmadJust to be clear, as for the Quran, however, you don't have to guess because the manuscripts of it in the lifetime of the prophet peace be upon him. Put the manuscripts aside. We have inscriptions.
2:47:37Ijaz AhmadBut the inscriptions aside, we have other geographical data that is widespread enough to definitively prove that the Quran as we have it today is from the lifetime of the prophet peace be upon him and his companions. We call this, just to be clear, an archetypal text. This is what we accept as Muslims.
2:47:54Ijaz AhmadBut for Christians, there is no such thing. I would like some or j to really point out that the bible as they have it today, the scholars refer to it as a voyage or a hypothetical
2:48:05Ijaz Ahmadreconstruction.
2:48:06Ijaz AhmadIt's not actually the word of god. When you you see it mentions that every word every word in scripture is god withed, they should amend it to say it may be god withed, but we can't actually know. I mean, for goodness sake, Jesus got god's name wrong.
2:48:20Sam ShamounCan I respond to him because he brought
2:48:23Ijaz Ahmada question to us?
2:48:24Myron GainesYeah. I mean, he was answering a question from one of the the chapters.
2:48:27Sam ShamounTo you. You know I'm gonna answer it. I wanna be very
2:48:29Myron GainesI wanna make sure everybody gets a fair say here because my thing is I want you guys to make put your ideas out there and let the chat decide who they think's win. So go ahead, please.
2:48:37Sam ShamounOkay. Now number one, again, because he doesn't know much
2:48:39Ijaz Ahmadabout to do responses to this chat. He
2:48:42Ijaz Ahmaddidn't agree on that.
2:48:43Myron GainesWell, I mean, you answered the chat, and then he wants to give his perspective
2:48:47Sam Shamounas well. Ask the question. Right? I'm gonna answer your schedule.
2:48:50Jay DyerFine. Let let
2:48:51Daniel Haqiqatjouhim respond, and then we can respond to the any
2:48:52Ijaz Ahmadof chat questions. If you respond, someone's
2:48:55Daniel HaqiqatjouNumber one.
2:48:56Sam ShamounK. When he talks about,
2:49:00Sam Shamounthat now he just destroyed the Quran even worse because when we come to the case of the gospels,
2:49:05Sam Shamounno Christian denies that human authors were used to communicate the words of Jesus in translation and Greek, and God can do that. So they're not going to quote exactly the same way in a target language. But what he doesn't tell you, and I did series on this, Allah who's supposedly speaking the Quran will repeat the same story
2:49:22Sam Shamounwith the same speech, whether Moses and the Egyptians or Shaitan, Iblis, and Allah or Lot, and he cannot get the details in the exact same way. He'll quote the same speeches and often various conflicting
2:49:38Sam Shamouncontradictory reporting.
2:49:39Sam ShamounSo the Quran itself is one huge, which
2:49:43Sam Shamounis surprising because I thought Allah's speaking and Allah knows everything and recalls speeches perfectly. So much for Allah and him being all knowing. And then if we extend that to the hadith, your own scholars admit
2:49:53Sam Shamounthat when it comes to even your authentic traditions,
2:49:56Sam Shamounyou have
2:49:58Sam Shamounof your prophet, not
2:50:00Sam Shamounverba.
2:50:01Sam ShamounMoreover,
2:50:02Sam Shamounif the Bible is not preserved, you prove Muhammad is an antichrist because he confirmed all the scriptures.
2:50:09Sam ShamounHe didn't make any fuss about the variant readings.
2:50:12Sam ShamounBecause if he did, he would end up bearing your Quran because he admit that the Quran did not come down in one mode. Which your scholars till this day don't even know what the hell that means. That's why you have over 35
2:50:23Sam Shamounopinions about what the
2:50:25Sam Shamounare, which means if you're consistent, you just destroyed the Quran, you destroyed your prophet, you destroyed your god, Stop being a Muslim. Join Bahnsen. Yeah.
2:50:33Ijaz AhmadSo if I could just respond to this quickly.
2:50:35Myron GainesYeah. Go ahead.
2:50:35Ijaz AhmadI mean, the bible affirms that the prophet Muhammad is a true prophet. In first John
2:50:39Sam Shamounchapter 12, he has a different
2:50:41Ijaz AhmadI'm reading it. Yes. It's false and it's fake, but it says something's occasionally right. A broken clock can be right. A broken a broken clock can be right twice a day. Right? I I don't deny that the bible might say god is one occasion.
2:50:53Jay DyerNo. He's false and fake, but that's good here. Yeah.
2:50:56Sam ShamounYeah. Just heard job.
2:50:58Ijaz AhmadThe job. And don't deny this. We never say we never made a claim that one
2:51:02Jay Dyerof think. I'll prove it here.
2:51:04Ijaz AhmadSo
2:51:05Daniel HaqiqatjouOkay. We can interrupt too. We can interrupt you too, Jay.
2:51:08Ijaz AhmadWhat you want, Danny? Because he's so too We can
2:51:09Daniel Haqiqatjouinterrupt you.
2:51:15Myron GainesTo be
2:51:17Ijaz AhmadDaniel or I made the claim that all of the bible is false or wrong. It gets things right. Mentions Jesus' mother.
2:51:23Jay DyerIt mentions Jesus.
2:51:24Sam ShamounGet it right. Yeah.
2:51:25Ijaz AhmadOh, no. It gets advice when God's word agrees with it, not when it, you know, allows genocide in your case. So
2:51:39Ijaz Ahmadkeep interrupting because you don't like the answer. But let's be clear here.
2:51:43Ijaz AhmadThe the bible, first John four two verses two and three, it mentions directly anyone who testifies that Jesus is the Christ and that Jesus came in the flesh It's a true spirit from God. So you may not have to like it, but your bible affirms Muhammad spoke about the. And secondly secondly, to be clear genuine. Secondly secondly, to be clear, because I
2:52:02Sam ShamounBury religion further.
2:52:04Ijaz AhmadIt doesn't have to be genuine for me. As long as you believe in it, it's consistent for me. Today's point.
2:52:07Daniel HaqiqatjouIt doesn't
2:52:08Ijaz Ahmadhave to a the bible against you. I can quote the bible against you. I don't have to assume this guys to use it against you. Islam.
2:52:15Ijaz AhmadIt's not circular reasoning because I'm not implying the consequent to be clear. So one more time, please try not to interrupt. I know you don't like the answer. Secondly, you made the claim that the prophet peace be upon him committed rape.
2:52:27Ijaz AhmadWe asked you to show where he did so, and you could not. On the other hand on the other hand, I showed you where Jesus where Jesus the Christ
2:52:34Ijaz Ahmadaffirms that whatever the pharisees tell you, do it.
2:52:38Ijaz AhmadWas just Matthew chapter 23. Yeah. Says they're hypocrites. He says they're hypocrites, but he also says, obey them. Obear them. And we know that they committed
2:52:47Ijaz Ahmadgenocide. I don't need to. I quote exactly what
2:52:50Sam ShamounI want. Course, you don't need to be.
2:52:51Ijaz AhmadThirdly thirdly,
2:52:53Ijaz Ahmadyou made the claim you made the claim that Jesus never affirmed anything extreme. But he if you believe he affirmed the old testament, he affirmed the the crimes, the rapes, the murders, the genocide
2:53:02Daniel HaqiqatjouKilling babies.
2:53:03Sam ShamounThat's Allah. You're yeah. That's Allah.
2:53:05Daniel HaqiqatjouKilling babies. Yeah. Alright. You're you're
2:53:07Sam Shamounyou didn't condemn. Sorry. He sanctioned Moses to do that. So thank Allah.
2:53:11Ijaz AhmadDon't believe that, and the Quran never says that. That's your assumption.
2:53:14Jay DyerThat's your assumption. Doesn't confirm the flood?
2:53:17Ijaz AhmadNo. I said the Quran doesn't confirm the genocide that some wants to believe in.
2:53:21Daniel HaqiqatjouOh, the difference between the Bible the difference between the Bible and the Quran,
2:53:25Daniel Haqiqatjouyeah, the flood happens.
2:53:27Daniel HaqiqatjouThere is basically god. That's different than the Bible. The Bible says the soldiers
2:53:32Ijaz Ahmadbabies and animals?
2:53:33Daniel HaqiqatjouJesus says Jesus says to soldiers, go kill those babies. That's what Jesus says.
2:53:37Sam ShamounThere's nothing like that in the Quran. Chapter
2:53:39Sam Shamounfour.
2:53:40Daniel HaqiqatjouJesus says Jesus says,
2:53:42Daniel Haqiqatjougo and kill. Jesus says, go and kill those babies. Don't leave anything that breathes. Go take
2:53:48Ijaz Ahmadtheir women
2:53:49Daniel Haqiqatjouas captives. Go take their the girls that have not slept with any man.
2:53:56Myron GainesSam, you
2:53:57Ijaz Ahmadwill go.
2:53:57Daniel HaqiqatjouThe girls who haven't slept with any man, take them as your captives and shave their heads and humiliate
2:54:03Myron Gainesthem. Okay.
2:54:03Daniel HaqiqatjouWe didn't deny the flood. We didn't deny the flood. Not killing Just pointing out that's a stupid argument. It's not a
2:54:10Daniel HaqiqatjouNo. It's it is a big difference.
2:54:11Ijaz AhmadThat is an actual when when is not sign.
2:54:13Daniel HaqiqatjouThe ones that you claim to god, one is ordered for people to kill
2:54:17Speaker 6Are uncreated things knowable? To be clear, do uncreated things share communicable attributes with created things such that we can have knowledge of them?
2:54:26Ijaz AhmadOkay. Had a question.
2:54:27Myron GainesOkay. So it's it's I think it was a TTS chat. Okay. This is what I'm gonna do. I think, Dan, you got to say what you wanted to say about talking about what Jesus had had done. Sam, I'll let you respond because you were trying to
2:54:38Daniel Haqiqatjousend this to me. I didn't get to finish my point. You kept You
2:54:40Myron Gainesinterrupting me. Finish finish your point, and then it goes to Sam and then Jay, and then we'll finish off on this.
2:54:44Daniel HaqiqatjouThere's a difference between God sending pestilence or God, like, sending a catastrophe to punish a people. That's a that is a natural disaster that God commands. That's different from what the Bible says. The Bible Jesus is telling Moses,
2:54:58Daniel Haqiqatjougo and kill the women, children, and leave nothing that breathes.
2:55:03Daniel HaqiqatjouThat is his command to people, to soldiers to go go and actually commit that. And the interpreters of the Bible, including the Christians, took those verses to justify
2:55:13Daniel Haqiqatjoutheir genocidal programs in the Roman empire, in the Byzantine empire, all the way to the colonial period. They used these verses of the bible Israel today, they're using these verses of the bible to justify their genocide throughout history. Now you
2:55:27Ijaz Ahmadhave Orthodox Church as well. The Russian Orthodox Church uses these verses to justify the murders in Ukraine as well.
2:55:33Sam ShamounYeah. Okay.
2:55:33Daniel HaqiqatjouWe Muslims don't say, oh, we can go chill kill babies because there was Noah's flood. Like, no one Muslim has had this interpretation. But that's the difference between the bible and the Quran.
2:55:43Myron GainesLet me go to Sam and Jay so they can respond,
2:55:46Myron Gainesand then we'll finish this topic. Or yeah. Go ahead, Sam. I know you're trying to say something.
2:55:53Myron GainesDid we lose him? Or is he muted? Muted.
2:55:56Jay DyerSam, are you muted?
2:55:57Myron GainesYeah.
2:55:58Myron GainesYou can unmute yourself, Sam. Let me we'll try to yeah.
2:56:01Jay DyerAlright. Well, I'll go ahead. Go ahead.
2:56:02Sam ShamounYou ready? You want me to go further? You get the last word, Jay. Let me Go ahead. Okay. Alright. I know you guys have a hard time hearing because let me repeat again what you failed to address adequately.
2:56:13Sam ShamounYou just proved Jesus is Allah, Muhammad's God and judge. Let me repeat the ayah again.
2:56:17Daniel HaqiqatjouEverything we said proves that, apparently.
2:56:18Sam ShamounSo, well, chapter two verse two forty six to two fifty one. Read chapter two verse two forty six to 51. Read chapter five verse 20 to 26.
2:56:27Sam ShamounJesus, your Allah, Muhammad's God, who gave him the Quran and you corrupted it, he's the one who ordered what Moses and Joshua and Saul did, and there's nothing in these passages that say
2:56:38Sam Shamounthat when you go ahead and do this, it's
2:56:40Daniel HaqiqatjouNothing in the Quran
2:56:51Daniel Haqiqatjouit. You're
2:56:53Daniel Haqiqatjoureading it. You're
2:56:55Sam Shamounit. Reading You're
2:57:04Myron Gainesit.
2:57:06Myron GainesHe's a thrill to do it. He's a thrill to
2:57:09Ijaz Ahmaddo You're do
2:57:10Sam ShamounYou're They won't let me finish. They're mindful of
2:57:13Myron GainesHe's just gonna let me know, guys.
2:57:15Sam ShamounYeah. Volume
2:57:17Sam Shamounfour, number three fifty three, narrated Abu Hurayyah. The prophet said, a prophet amongst the prophets carried out a holy military expedition. So he said to his followers, anyone who has married a woman and wants to consummate the marriage and has not done so yet should not accompany me nor should a man who has built a house but has not completed its roof nor
2:57:37Sam Shamouna man who has sheep or she camels and is waiting for the birth of their young ones. So the prophet carried out the expedition, and when he reached that town at the time or nearly at the time of the ase prayer, he said to the son, oh, son, you are under Allah's order, and I'm under Allah's order. Oh, Allah, stop the sun from setting. It was stopped till Allah made him victorious.
2:57:58Sam ShamounThen he collected the booty, and the fire came to burn it, but it did not burn it. He said to the man, some of you have stolen something from the booty, so one man from every tribe should give me a pledge of allegiance by shaking hands with me. They did so, and the hand of a man got stuck over the hand of their prophet. Then that prophet said to the man, the theft has been committed by your people, so all the persons of your tribe should give me the pledge of allegiance by shaking hands with them. The hands of two or three men got stuck over the hand of their prophet, and he said, you have committed the theft.
2:58:28Sam ShamounThen they brought a head of gold like the head of a cow and put it there, and the fire came and consumed the body. The prophet added, then Allah saw our weakness and disability, so he made booty legal for us. Here,
2:58:39Sam Shamounyour prophet
2:58:41Sam Shamounconfirms Deuteronomy 20 verses one to nine, which you just earlier, meaning you're better than your prophet.
2:58:46Ijaz AhmadDidn't hear the murder. Raised
2:58:48Sam Shamounseven. Don't interrupt me, buddy.
2:58:49Ijaz AhmadWhere was the murder of
2:58:50Daniel Haqiqatjouthe Where is the murder of the rape?
2:58:52Ijaz AhmadIt's absent. Do it again.
2:58:53Daniel HaqiqatjouWhere was it? You didn't
2:58:55Daniel Haqiqatjousay any of that.
2:58:56Sam ShamounYou yeah. When he goes
2:58:58Ijaz AhmadWhy you off come? Why do off come? Show your religion. Yeah.
2:59:01Sam ShamounWhy don't you show your face? Show your face and just say it. God got destroyed.
2:59:05Myron GainesGlory to
2:59:06Sam ShamounJesus. God got destroyed. Go ahead, Jake.
2:59:07Myron GainesYeah. Alright. Jake, finish finish up here, and then we'll move on to the next topic.
2:59:11Sam ShamounAnd
2:59:12Myron Gainesthen, Dan, I know you said you have to go. Right? At 08:30? You have to pray?
2:59:15Daniel HaqiqatjouYeah. I have to pray pretty soon.
2:59:17Myron GainesSo Okay.
2:59:18Daniel HaqiqatjouAre we finishing up? Like, we're
2:59:19Myron Gainesfinishing up. Yeah. We are finishing up here.
2:59:21Daniel HaqiqatjouOkay.
2:59:21Myron GainesBudget. Go ahead, Jake.
2:59:23Jay DyerNo. No. Sam, you can finish that point. You can take the rest of the
2:59:26Sam ShamounOh, well, they're gonna manifest because it's time for prayer. So let's see if they can control themselves. Okay, guys. Did you hear me read? Nothing in the context makes any
2:59:35Sam Shamounany exceptions.
2:59:37Sam ShamounMohammed is confirming
2:59:38Sam Shamounthese stories as found in the bible. Nothing in the context says that Joshua was told, oh, but spare women and children. They have to read that into it because they got humiliated.
2:59:50Ijaz AhmadYou said they would also read the Quran, so read that in the Quran, please.
2:59:54Sam ShamounKeep keep manifesting. You can read that in
2:59:56Ijaz Ahmadthe Quran. I'll
2:59:58Ijaz Ahmadread that in the
2:59:59Daniel Haqiqatjoufinish.
3:00:00Daniel HaqiqatjouLet him finish, and then we'll make your points.
3:00:02Sam ShamounSo now the burden of proof is on Daniel before he goes and prays to Baal. Show me in these passages in Surat Al Maidah five twenty to 26,
3:00:10Sam ShamounSurat Al Baqarah two two forty six to two fifty one,
3:00:14Ijaz Ahmadand this time the Quran now. Can I can I this again? Finish my This is tired, son.
3:00:18Daniel HaqiqatjouLet him finish, you jazzed. Let
3:00:19Sam Shamounhim finish.
3:00:20Ijaz AhmadIt's all men. Tired.
3:00:20Sam ShamounGotta gotta follow the sunnah of your prophet.
3:00:22Ijaz AhmadSo now following Jesus who entered the In fire
3:00:25Sam Shamounthose passages, your prophet said that when
3:00:28Sam ShamounAllah sent Musa and Joshua
3:00:30Sam Shamounthat he gave them the orders, spare the women and children, because he quotes them as is, and he confirms the Torah in his possession.
3:00:38Sam ShamounSo now go ahead. Condemn your prophet. Christ wins. Muhammad loses again. Go ahead.
3:00:42Daniel HaqiqatjouAre you done?
3:00:43Ijaz AhmadOh, are you done? Did all so put
3:00:44Daniel Haqiqatjouon that too. First of you didn't show that the verses of the Quran or the hadith are condoning rape and murder. That's your first lie.
3:00:54Ijaz AhmadAs found in the bible.
3:00:55Daniel HaqiqatjouAs found in the bible. We read verses of the bible. We'll we'll read it again. Mo Jesus said to Moses, have you let the women live? Now kill every male among the little ones and
3:01:04Sam Shamounkill every woman. Marry with that passage.
3:01:06Daniel HaqiqatjouEvery woman who has known man by lying with him. So, basically, save the virgins for yourself. That's what Jesus says. And then you can force them to marry you, shave their heads, and humiliate them. This is what we're reading from Numbers.
3:01:19Daniel HaqiqatjouSo this is like you didn't mention it anyway. The hadith that Ijaz read earlier
3:01:25Daniel Haqiqatjousays that there's no killing of women and children. Why can't you deal with that? We don't read
3:01:29Sam ShamounIt is.
3:01:30Daniel HaqiqatjouOne hadith and say that
3:01:32Daniel Haqiqatjouone hadith that you read Let me do it. See, we didn't interrupt you. Right?
3:01:36Sam ShamounOkay. Go ahead. No. He actually Hejaz did, so stop lying.
3:01:38Daniel HaqiqatjouAnd we told him not to I told him not to
3:01:40Sam ShamounBut he kept doing it. He kept manifesting imamite. I'll bear do want me to give me a minute? Watch what I do with numbers 31. I'll bury
3:01:45Ijaz AhmadMhmm. The argument. Put that kind of a background and say that's on my face.
3:01:48Sam ShamounYeah. Oh, a little short guy like you, you need Daniel to help you.
3:01:51Ijaz AhmadI'm still here in a jerk. But isn't it? Just to make
3:01:54Myron Gainesit easy. See that this isn't gonna you guys are just gonna going in a circle. It's fine.
3:01:58Ijaz AhmadWell, sun shouldn't be a big just go on.
3:02:01Myron GainesI'll read it as whole.
3:02:02Daniel HaqiqatjouThe point was there's no, passage in the Quran. There's no verse that condones genocide. Whereas we read the explicit words of Jesus saying to go and kill the babies. You can't how are you coping with this? It's all just a coke from Sam, and it looks silly. So
3:02:17Daniel Haqiqatjouthis is you didn't quote anything. We quoted you the hadith that says don't kill women and children. We don't just take the Quran. We take the Quran and sunnah. So when you cite one hadith
3:02:26Ijaz AhmadI wrote
3:02:26Daniel Haqiqatjouit to very didn't show you didn't show where that hadith says kill women and children. Okay. You didn't you didn't show that. Where does the hadith say kill women and children? Don't just, fill a buzzer and pretend we're not gonna notice.
3:02:38Sam ShamounWhy asking?
3:02:39Daniel HaqiqatjouDon't pretend we're not gonna notice that nothing that you read says kill women and children.
3:02:43Sam ShamounI don't understand.
3:02:44Daniel HaqiqatjouDoes it say where does it say kill
3:02:47Daniel Haqiqatjouwomen and children?
3:02:48Ijaz AhmadCan I ask you guys?
3:02:48Daniel HaqiqatjouWhere does it say kill women and children?
3:02:50Myron GainesThat's fine.
3:02:50Sam ShamounCan I answer you their question? I know you don't know logic, and you wanna shift the burden of proof. You quoted hadith where your prophet said it, but there's the same hadith that says
3:03:00Sam Shamounthat if women and children are killed, they are of them. It's in Sahih Muslim. I mentioned it, but you read the full chapter.
3:03:07Sam ShamounRead the whole chapter. Read the whole thing.
3:03:09Ijaz AhmadThe chapter head and says, you're unlawful. The chapter is not on prohibition
3:03:15Ijaz Ahmadof killing women and children.
3:03:16Sam ShamounAnd I am And it was
3:03:17Ijaz Ahmadnot a permission to kill women and children. It was a category
3:03:21Ijaz Ahmadof whether they're polygynyous or not. We're a permission.
3:03:23Myron GainesWe're just gonna move on. There's a question here for the for for team ase
3:03:26Sam ShamounOne, you just run with that.
3:03:27Myron GainesThere's a question. A follow-up for team ase
3:03:29Ijaz AhmadI'll be like your wife then. No?
3:03:30Myron GainesYou claimed the crime
3:03:31Sam Shamounis Yeah. She's the crime.
3:03:32Ijaz AhmadNot
3:03:33Ijaz Ahmadthat one. The one would be the
3:03:37Ijaz AhmadLet
3:03:37Myron Gainesme let me just read this. Let me just read this. A follow-up for team Islam. You claimed the Quran was uncreated and uncreated things knowable. To be clear, do uncreated things share communal,
3:03:46Myron Gainescommunicable
3:03:47Myron Gainesattributes with, created things such that we can have knowledge of them? I think that's that's a question for team Islam. I'll turn that to Ajaz because he answers
3:03:56Ijaz Ahmadthe first one. Indicator. If it's indicator, we can indicate things but know the exact but not know the exact essence of them, which is why Allah establishes there
3:04:06Ijaz Ahmadis nothing absolutely like him, but he can indicate knowledge which is familiar to us.
3:04:11Myron GainesOkay.
3:04:11Ijaz AhmadThat's pretty much it.
3:04:12Myron GainesFair enough. So what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna and then last one here. One question for Daniel. If your prophet is a representation of what you should be, why don't all Muslims have
3:04:21Myron Gainesintercourse with
3:04:23Myron Gainesnine year olds, and why don't you allow your daughter to get married when she is six? Do you wanna address that? Because there's this
3:04:29Daniel HaqiqatjouYeah. Absolutely. I have a entire debate with a Christian Yeah. On this topic. Right? And
3:04:35Daniel Haqiqatjouwhat? Sorry?
3:04:36Myron GainesOn Asia the Asia, if I'm not mistaken. Right? The nine year old is the
3:04:39Daniel Haqiqatjouoldest Ayesha, yeah, the
3:04:41Daniel Haqiqatjouwife of the prophet, peace be upon him. Yeah. This is the number one thing that Christians wanna bring bring up against Islam.
3:04:47Daniel HaqiqatjouAnd we pointed out in this debate that the Bible has no problem with child marriage. The church actually has no problem with child marriage and actually endorses it with 12 years old or younger. Canon law, Gratian endorses it. And even Jay could not condemn Thomas Aquinas as a pedophile. He condemns him by
3:05:04Ijaz Ahmadthe way.
3:05:05Daniel HaqiqatjouHe condemns him, but he doesn't say that he's a pedophile. So, actually, within this debate, we've seen plenty of resources
3:05:11Daniel Haqiqatjouwithin Christianity that child marriage is condoned. It's accepted, and that's the Christian tradition. Now Christians wanna throw their entire bible,
3:05:19Daniel Haqiqatjoutheir church tradition in the trash. Go ahead. Muslims were consistent. We say that, look. Marriage can happen at the age of puberty. When a girl goes through puberty or a boy goes through puberty puberty, then they can get married, and that is what god has allowed. And that's what every culture and religion has practiced historically. It's only become a problem in modern times because of modern educational system that requires you to go through twelve years of education so you can become a wage slave,
3:05:45Daniel Haqiqatjougo and work in the factories, go and work in it for the industries. So they wanna prevent you from getting married younger as a teenager. Instead, they want you to fornicate. They want little girls in nine at nine years old to fornicate with each other. And a lot of these Christians, they don't have problems with their kids having a girlfriend or boyfriend or experimenting with sex at age nine, 10, 11, 12. That's happening rampant
3:06:06Daniel Haqiqatjouwithin Western society. All we hear is about how Islam is pedophilic.
3:06:11Daniel HaqiqatjouWell, look at your own societies.
3:06:13Daniel HaqiqatjouMarriage would be the solution to the amount of degeneracy that, unfortunately, we see in the West. And maybe Jay would agree with me, maybe not Sam, but Jay would
3:06:21Daniel Haqiqatjouagree that marriage can be the solution for a 15 year old to get married, a 14 year old to get married. That was certainly the church's position.
3:06:28Myron GainesOkay.
3:06:30Myron GainesAnything else?
3:06:31Myron GainesAlright. That was the last one. So, guys, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. I want you guys to all just kind of
3:06:37Myron Gainessay where the people can find you, where they can, you know, get their get your content if they're interested in learning more about you.
3:06:43Myron GainesWe'll turn it over to we can start with you guys. Go ahead.
3:06:46Ijaz AhmadYeah. Ef Tawha and everywhere you go.
3:06:49Myron GainesHe has a YouTube channel, guys. Go check him out. Ef Tawha. K.
3:06:53Myron GainesWhat about you, Daniel?
3:06:54Daniel HaqiqatjouYeah. Muslim skeptic. That's the channel you Google at Muslim skeptic with a k, and we have a lot of debates, playlists where I debate Christians, Jews, Hindus, atheists. So you can check me out on Muslim skeptic. There's also muslimskeptic.com
3:07:07Daniel Haqiqatjouwith a website with a lot of material as well.
3:07:09Myron GainesAwesome. Sam?
3:07:12Myron GainesOh, you're muted, Sam.
3:07:14Myron GainesYou might have to unmute yourself.
3:07:19Myron GainesHere. Yeah. You have to just unmute yourself. Okay. Got
3:07:21Ijaz Ahmadit. Shamoonian.
3:07:23Sam ShamounIf you go to YouTube, it's Shamoonian, s h a m o u n I a n. And also on Rumble, it's answering Islam, and I answering islamblog.wordpress.com.
3:07:32Sam ShamounI try to stream daily.
3:07:34Sam ShamounSo, Lord willing, you can find me there, and you can find the articles and all the material we use there as well as an answering islam.info.
3:07:40Sam ShamounSo that's where you can find me.
3:07:41Myron GainesAwesome.
3:07:43Myron GainesJay?
3:07:44Jay DyerYeah. Jaysanalysis.com.
3:07:45Jay DyerYou can find me on all all the socials under my name, Jay Dyer. You can also find me every Friday hosting the Alex Jones show.
3:07:52Myron GainesAlright. Awesome on info wars. Guys,
3:07:55Myron GainesI hope you guys enjoyed the debate, man. We'll probably host something like this maybe in the future.
3:07:59Myron GainesYou know, got a little personal there at times, but the guys still remained extremely professional, which I thank you guys for that. Thank you guys so much. It was great to have you guys. Guys, go please go follow them. Go check them out. We'll be back here with some lovely ladies in about forty five minute in about an hour. We'll have some after hours. It won't be as, kosher as this debate was here. So,
3:08:16Myron Gaineswe'll catch you guys. Thank you guys so much for coming on the podcast. Great to have you guys. Peace.