Jay Dyer vs 2 Freemason Christians

0:00DJ BolgerAlright. Everyone, thank you for coming out.

0:04DJ BolgerToday, we have a awesome debate that

0:08DJ Bolgerwe're very excited to do in person. First and foremost, we wanna thank the venue. This venue is super awesome and it's a dual it's a dual purpose venue for events

0:18DJ Bolgerand as a workspace. So anybody who lives in Nashville,

0:22DJ Bolgerwe do highly recommend this place to

0:25DJ Bolgerdo either of those things. So

0:27DJ BolgerRobert, if you're here, thanks so much. If not, you can see this in the recording. We're very grateful for it. We wish to throw events

0:34DJ Bolgerlike this in the future. So really any kind of debates is what we're looking to do. This is kind of one of the first of its nature. So thank you guys for coming out. Hopefully everything runs pretty smoothly. And

0:46DJ Bolgeryeah, we'll go ahead and kick it off.

0:48DJ BolgerSo

0:51DJ Bolgertoday we have two Christian Freemasons

0:53DJ Bolgerversus

0:55DJ Bolgeran Orthodox Christian.

0:57DJ BolgerAnd the prompt of the debate is,

1:00DJ Bolgeris

1:02DJ BolgerFreemasonry incompatible with Christianity?

1:05DJ BolgerAnd

1:06DJ Bolgerfirst and foremost, I wanna say that I myself am not a Freemason,

1:10DJ Bolgernor am I an orthodox christian for that matter. I am

1:14DJ Bolgernot an expert on either subjects,

1:16DJ Bolgerbut I will try my best to moderate the debate with the utmost neutrality.

1:22DJ BolgerSo

1:24DJ Bolgerwithout further ado, we're gonna go ahead and

1:27DJ Bolgerkick it off into opening statements. Jay, we can start with you.

1:31DJ BolgerMake sure to include your your your religious affiliation,

1:34DJ Bolgerand your relationship Bunch of biases, sponsors,

1:37DJ Bolgeranything.

1:38DJ BolgerYeah. Books, the whole nine yards, and your relationship to Freemasonry obviously. Go for it. I'm no longer in

1:45Jay Dyera relationship with Freemasonry.

1:47Jay DyerNo, I'm joking. We so I'm Jay Dyer, orthodox apologist debater,

1:52Jay Dyersometime comedic comedy writer,

1:55Jay Dyera host of the fourth hour Alex Jones show.

1:58Jay DyerAnd you can find me of course on on YouTube and whatnot. I am an Orthodox Christian, so I believe that Masonry is incompatible

2:06Jay Dyerwith not just orthodox christianity, but really any of the traditional

2:10Jay Dyerbodies of christianity have pretty much

2:12Jay Dyerexerted statements on that. So am I doing the opening statement now or are they gonna say who they are first?

2:17DJ BolgerNo. Let's go ahead and say who you guys are and then we'll kick it off with a extended opening statement. So go ahead Ryan.

2:23Ryan TerbibullI'm Ryan Terrible. I'm the only guy up here that you'd probably don't know.

2:27Ryan TerbibullI'm a lifelong nationalian,

2:30Ryan Terbibullthirty third degree freemason, been a freemason for about eighteen years now.

2:34Ryan TerbibullAnd I am a

2:36Ryan TerbibullProtestant Christian, put it broadly.

2:39Ryan TerbibullAnd obviously I am pro Freemasonry.

2:42Chase GeyserI'm Chase Geyser. I have been a Freemason since 2011.

2:47Chase GeyserSo what was that about fifteen years?

2:49Chase GeyserHave a thirty second degree Freemason, not a thirty third degree like big boy Ryan over here. And I'm a non denominational Christian.

2:57Chase GeyserPerfect.

2:57DJ BolgerAlright. We can just go in the same order here. Go ahead and kick it off with your extended opening statement. And then from there, we'll go into an open discussion

3:05DJ Bolgerwhere it's kind of just a no holds barred, go any direction you want within the prompt of the debate. So go ahead in your opening statement Jay.

3:11Jay DyerYeah. So I think that what we wanna think about in terms of Christianity, and again I'm gonna argue that although I'm orthodox, really any of the representative historical bodies of Christianity have already made public statements.

3:22Jay DyerFor example,

3:24Jay DyerProtestant denominations

3:25Jay Dyerlike

3:26Jay Dyerthe OPC, the PCA,

3:28Jay Dyervarious Lutheran traditional

3:30Jay Dyerdenominations

3:31Jay Dyerthemselves have stated that they don't believe that it's any way, in any way compatible

3:35Jay Dyerwith traditional Christianity, and here what we would mean is Nicene Christianity in terms of the Nicene Creed.

3:41Jay DyerAs an orthodox Christian of course, most of the jurisdictions and patriarchates

3:45Jay Dyerhave public statements that you cannot be a Christian, it is antithetical in terms of the philosophy

3:50Jay Dyerof the organization as a whole.

3:52Jay DyerAt the same time, the Roman Catholic church still has as part of its canon law, the official statement

3:57Jay Dyerand this was reaffirmed in the early eighties by Ratzinger in terms of the cdf that is antithetical to Catholicism to be a freemason. So

4:05Jay Dyerregardless of what Vatican two says that seems to wind up with freemasonry.

4:09Jay DyerAt least on the books, you can't be a Roman Catholic and be a freemason. So

4:13Jay Dyerwhat is it that would make it antithetical to Christianity? Well,

4:17Jay Dyerfor my argument,

4:18Jay DyerI would argue that saying that you are a Christian Freemason is equivalent to saying, I'm a Christian Gnostic, or I'm a Christian pagan,

4:26Jay Dyeror I'm a Christian who's a member of the Marxist communist party. The reason that you can't say that is that the philosophy and the ethos of those systems that I gave are at roots antithetical to the basics of the philosophy in the worldview of christianity. For example, the Nicene Creed has as its basic

4:44Jay Dyerdefinition,

4:45Jay Dyerthe deity of Christ and the doctrine of the trinity,

4:48Jay Dyerone holy catholic and apostolic church. Masonry is premised on the idea that all the religions essentially are kinds of masks of God and they tend to prefer a kind of deistic version of the deity. So deism right from the outset, and I've got many masonic sources

5:03Jay Dyerthat I can go to they're gonna basically say,

5:05Jay Dyera deistic type type of perspective. If you don't know what deism is, it's the enlightenment perspective that God is not imminent in the world, active doing things, miracles, etcetera.

5:15Jay DyerRather the God of the bible or excuse me, the God of Masorean, the way that Masorean interpret the bible is that it's a first cause, a kind of Aristotelian

5:23Jay Dyermover

5:24Jay Dyerthat you don't have a relationship with. And in fact, that great architect of the universe philosophy that Masore has is identical to the pagan Greek philosophy perspective

5:33Jay Dyerthat Aristotle talks about. An architect works with pre existing matter and tools. He does not create ex nilo. So the very idea of calling God merely the architect

5:45Jay Dyeralready suggests a Hellenic Greek pagan perspective that for example, Saint Bezil in his famous Exameron lectures where he goes in Exameron two to call this position a dyad

5:55Jay Dyeris antithetical to christianity's triad. Freemasonry and its representative philosophers and thinkers, whether it is people who are in the York Rite or promoted by the York Rite like Albert Mackie,

6:05Jay Dyerand I have with me Mackie's works here,

6:08Jay Dyerexplicitly downplay the trinity and the deed of Christ to promote their generic

6:12Jay Dyertheism based around a kind of naturalism.

6:16Jay DyerAnd Albert Pike himself in Morals and Dogma, and we can go into all these quotes if we need to, explicitly denies the trinity, the personhood of the holy spirit, and says that essentially masonry is all of the ancient mystery religions, whether it's Marcionism,

6:28Jay DyerZoroastrianism,

6:29Jay Dyeror some form of Gnosticism. They're essentially all combined into the system of free masonry.

6:33Jay DyerSo again,

6:34Jay Dyerto make my final statement as to why it's antithetical, I would simply argue that

6:39Jay Dyerif you kinda look at the way that Mackey as a test case

6:43Jay Dyerdefines God. He says that God is the name tetragamiton,

6:48Jay Dyerthe Yahweh

6:49Jay Dyerreference that we have in the old testament. He says that name can only be understood and pronounced and theologically interpreted

6:56Jay Dyerthrough the Kabbalah.

6:58Jay DyerAnd he says we have to look to the Zohar and the teachings of the Talmudus and the Kabbalah to understand what the theological significance of the name of God is. And he says that it's essentially the male and female principle

7:08Jay Dyerof the universe.

7:10Jay DyerAnd then according to Mackey,

7:12Jay Dyerwhen you talk about things like the yoni,

7:15Jay Dyerwhich is the vagina, the vajayjay, for those who don't know.

7:19Jay DyerWe got a lot of single men here. They may not familiar with that what that is. With the yoni or the vajayjay is the female privy parts to so to speak. And according to Mackie, the name of God amongst the Brahmans and the Hindus is the yoni

7:34Jay Dyerreferencing the female principle of nature. So a quiver so I I would simply ask if

7:40Jay Dyeraccording to Masonry, the God of Masonry is the male and female principle of the universe, and according to Masonry, the name of God in Hinduism

7:49Jay Dyeris the female principle is yoni.

7:51Jay DyerMasonry essentially worships p p's and b j j's, and says that those things are God and are the ultimate generative principle and female principle universe, which is absurd and is also kabbalistic because Kabbalah says that Adam, Kadmon and God are essentially a bisexual

8:05Jay Dyerdeity. That's where we get bad from that. By way, I've got scholars here who are writing from out of Harvard. William b Green has a book about

8:12Jay DyerKabbalah

8:12Jay Dyeras the root of Masonry. So Kabbalistic Gnosticism is another way to prove and show that Masonry is antithetical to Christianity. It'd be like saying to Saint Irenaeus who wrote the greats treatise in the second century one eighty eighty against the Gnostics.

8:27Jay DyerTo say, oh, but Irenaeus don't you understand,

8:30Jay DyerI am a Christian

8:31Jay Dyerand I'm a Freemason and I'm a Gnostic. They're all pretty much the same. And the other thing is that the last comment I'll make is that their position essentially predicates a tiered strata

8:41Jay Dyerbetween

8:42Jay DyerChristians

8:43Jay Dyerwho are Masons or Masons in general versus the profane who are not initiated into their gibberish mysteries. And so that would mean that all the Christian pastors and ministers

8:52Jay Dyerwho are not initiated into the mysteries are therefore profane.

8:56Jay DyerAnd so really only the gnostic inner elite Christian Masons would be the true Christians. That's the very thing that Saint Arian rebukes

9:04Jay Dyerin his rebukes of the Gnostics when he says that Orthodox Christianity has a public

9:09Jay Dyerpersona, a public doctrine.

9:11Jay DyerWe don't have secret esoteric teachings, it's not necessary.

9:15Jay DyerAlright. Great. Over to you, Ryan.

9:17Ryan TerbibullAlright. So Jay said a lot there.

9:20Ryan TerbibullInstead of trying to initially respond to just each point, I would say,

9:26Ryan Terbibullyou're gonna hear a lot from me today

9:29Ryan Terbibullthat the quotes that he pulls out, the books that he references,

9:34Ryan TerbibullJay will try to make the attempt that Albert Pike or Mackey or any of these guys speak for freemasonry, that there are authorities on the craft.

9:42Ryan TerbibullNo man speaks for freemasonry. Freemasonry is not a religion. We don't have apostles.

9:47Ryan TerbibullWe don't have

9:51Ryan Terbibullcanon. You know, there's there there is no authority on freemasonry. It's a fraternity

9:57Ryan Terbibullthat is a system of morality as we call it. It's essentially a philosophy and in studying that philosophy in the system of self improvement for men,

10:07Ryan Terbibullwe pull from a lot of different religions.

10:10Ryan TerbibullOur pike, Morals and Dogma, I'm sure that's gonna come up today. It's basically a book in comparative religion.

10:16Ryan TerbibullMackey, some of these other people we quoted. These are individuals

10:20Ryan Terbibullwith their own ideas

10:22Ryan Terbibullas it pertains to the deity, to christianity.

10:26Ryan TerbibullSome of them are christian, some are not. Freemasonry does not require you to be of one religion to be a member.

10:33Ryan TerbibullYou simply have to be, believe in a supreme being. And we'll, I'm sure we'll dig into that further. I'll save that for later. But but essentially,

10:43Ryan TerbibullMasonry leaves a lot up to the individual man as it pertains

10:49Ryan Terbibullto his beliefs in deity.

10:52Ryan TerbibullBecause it's not its purpose, it's not its goal. It's not that it's indifferent, it's not that it doesn't care.

10:57Ryan TerbibullIt simply says that

10:59Ryan Terbibullthis is a fraternity

11:01Ryan Terbibullwith certain moral teachings and principles

11:04Ryan Terbibullthat surely borrow from different systems.

11:07Ryan TerbibullBut the purpose is not to create a new system. There's no masonic plan of salvation. There's no masonic worship.

11:15Ryan TerbibullIt's not meant to replace religion.

11:18Ryan TerbibullAnd so me as a christian,

11:21Ryan TerbibullI don't agree

11:23Ryan Terbibullwith some of my brothers and their views on religion and that's fine.

11:29Ryan TerbibullThere's nothing that says that I have to. And the entire point or one of the main points of the fraternity,

11:35Ryan Terbibullthe reasons why we allow men of different beliefs to come together is that Christian concept of as iron sharpens iron, one man sharpens another.

11:45Ryan TerbibullBy bringing men together of different beliefs that still are united upon core principles,

11:52Ryan Terbibullwe're able to work towards bettering ourselves and bettering the world.

11:58Chase GeyserAlright, Chase.

12:00Chase GeyserWell, again, I'm Chase Geyser,

12:02Chase Geyserformer InfoWars host. It's actually how I interacted and met Jay for the first time. The first thing I wanna do is I wanna thank DJ for putting this event together.

12:11Chase GeyserKudos to you and all your hard work. I think it's important that these debates continue to happen. Ryan, of course, I wanna thank you. Ryan's a very close old friend of mine here in Nashville

12:20Chase Geyserfor agreeing to participate in this because I know that it was

12:24Chase Geyserparticipating in something like this is

12:27Chase Geyserit opens up the door for criticism and problems or whatever, and you just bravely decided to do it. And Jay, I also wanna thank you for agreeing to come out here and do this debate. And I just wanna be totally explicit that although I disagree with Jay on this particular issue,

12:40Chase GeyserI have

12:41Chase Geyserastounding admiration for the work that he's done and I'm very grateful for specifically all the content that he's made on the info wars platform hosting the fourth hour of the Allies Jones show, and so I genuinely appreciate that very much. I wanna just start briefly by saying why I decided to become a Freemason. I was a

12:58Chase Geysersophomore in college at Belmont University here in Nashville,

13:02Chase Geyserand I was looking at the different fraternities at the university

13:05Chase Geyserand I just wasn't really feeling it. There's no frat houses at Belmont University, there wasn't much of a community, it was just kind of this ethereal group that would meet together for these different fraternities, and I happened to be reading the autobiography of Benjamin Franklin,

13:18Chase Geysersummer after my freshman year, and just kind of out of esteem for the founding fathers,

13:25Chase GeyserI decided to pursue and visit a lodge here in Nashville, observance lodge number six hundred and eighty six, which used to meet in the Grand Lodge Building downtown off of Broadway.

13:34Chase GeyserAnd after visiting and learning more about the fraternity, I decided to join and it was

13:38Chase Geyserin my opinion a very good decision. It was a very life changing experience for me. It's been

13:44Chase Geysera great source of friendship and brotherhood for me, and it's made me feel closer to Americanism

13:50Chase Geyserbecause I have a fraternal sense now more than just an academic sense of who the founding fathers were, what they stand for,

13:58Chase Geyserand some of the principles that founded this this great country.

14:04Chase GeyserI wanted to participate in this debate

14:06Chase Geyserspecifically just because I believe in freedom of speech. I believe in open discourse.

14:10Chase GeyserI think there's a lot of mischaracterizations

14:13Chase Geyseror misunderstandings around masonry. I don't accuse Jay of any malice whatsoever. I actually very much trust Jay

14:20Chase Geyserbecause of the work that I've seen that he's done. I just I think that he's misunderstanding or mischaracterizing

14:24Chase GeyserMasonry

14:26Chase Geyserinadvertently.

14:27Chase GeyserSo that's how I wanna start with

14:30Chase Geysermy introduction section of this debate. Thank you guys for all being here. I appreciate all of you for joining us.

14:35DJ BolgerPerfect. Alright. Well,

14:37DJ Bolgerwe're gonna step into the open discussion end of the debate. And this will

14:43Ryan Terbibullbe this will make up

14:43DJ Bolgerthe main course. After this, we're gonna have some questions on the side over here at the very end. So during this debate,

14:50DJ Bolgerif you have anything that comes to mind, you have any questions, write it down, take a note, and we'll step over there for a brief period at the end where some of you guys would get to ask questions.

15:00DJ BolgerNow, I think the best jumping off point

15:02DJ Bolgerwas,

15:04DJ BolgerRyan, you said that there's a lot to respond to in Jay's opening statement, But you wanna make a statement of your own obviously. So

15:11DJ BolgerI think just pick a point, any point in that statement and then we'll just jump off into it.

15:16DJ BolgerAnd I'll mostly step back and

15:19DJ Bolgerkinda let you guys go at it. And at any point for clarification or kind of a change of topic, I'll hop in. But is that is that okay to jump in? Perfect. Yeah.

15:30Ryan TerbibullSo I

15:32Ryan Terbibullfirst became interested in masonry like Chase.

15:37Ryan TerbibullJust had a general curiosity about it, started talking to some people about it.

15:41Ryan TerbibullTurns out my great grandfather was a mason

15:44Ryan Terbibulland

15:45Ryan Terbibulla huge mentor of mine. I had my great grandfather until I was in my late twenties, everyone had kids in my family super young. So my great grandfather was

15:54Ryan TerbibullChurch of Christ.

15:55Ryan TerbibullHe was a song leader.

15:57Ryan TerbibullDid that literally until like the year before he died at 96 years old. I've never met a better christian man than my great grandfather.

16:06Ryan TerbibullAnd when I was first exploring masonry, I I got online and you can just read you know, all sorts of craziness. But in the back of the line I was like, well you know, if it's good enough for pa then it's good enough for me, it's worth checking out.

16:18Ryan TerbibullAnd

16:20Ryan TerbibullI got into it and that's what I experienced, know. I

16:25Ryan Terbibullhear a lot of these criticisms and as Chase said, you know, I don't I don't think Jay has ill intent.

16:31Ryan TerbibullBut I think a lot of it's just misunderstandings.

16:33Ryan TerbibullPart of that's our fault, you know. We are

16:38Ryan Terbibullsecretive in some ways.

16:41Ryan TerbibullEven if I don't think a lot of it's even intentional. Secrets, he's literally we're a bunch of boomers for the most part.

16:49Ryan TerbibullLike a a huge portion of our membership is not online.

16:53Ryan TerbibullWe've My Lodge has a website but we're one of the rarities. So we don't do a very good job of telling our story.

16:59Ryan TerbibullSome of it I think is exhaust exhaustion.

17:01Ryan TerbibullThese

17:03Ryan Terbibullthese critiques have been around for hundreds of years. They keep kind of just popping back up

17:08Ryan Terbibulland you know, from some of the mason's

17:10Ryan Terbibullperspective it's better to just let it lie and try to ignore it. I do think the reason why I decided to do this, I think Chase is because of the internet, because of

17:20Ryan Terbibullthe I

17:21Ryan Terbibulldon't wanna say new times, we've been in these times for decades. But but information

17:25Ryan Terbibullis everywhere and I think if only one side ever gets told then then we're just not going to be able to,

17:32Ryan TerbibullI don't wanna say combat

17:34Ryan Terbibullanti masons, but just tell our own story and not let the misinformation spread.

17:39Ryan TerbibullSo as a christian, I've been a christian long before I was a free mason.

17:44Ryan TerbibullYou know,

17:46Ryan Terbibullthe idea that I view

17:49Ryan Terbibullother Christians or my Christian brothers as profane,

17:54Ryan Terbibullthat's absurd to me. It it is a term we use for non masons.

17:58Ryan TerbibullBut one of the first things you're taught when you join the lodge

18:02Ryan Terbibullis that,

18:03Ryan Terbibullyour religion and your duty to God comes before

18:07Ryan Terbibullfree masonry.

18:08Ryan TerbibullThe fraternity is secondary to your family,

18:11Ryan Terbibullto your occupation even,

18:12Ryan Terbibullto your country,

18:14Ryan Terbibulland certainly to your God.

18:17Ryan TerbibullThere's no scenario where my oath

18:20Ryan Terbibullor my obligation

18:22Ryan Terbibullor my love of the fraternity

18:24Ryan Terbibullsupersedes

18:25Ryan Terbibullmy belief in Christ or my love for my Christian brothers.

18:30Ryan TerbibullI do believe in the trinity. I believe in Jesus Christ as my Lord and savior. Believe in the resurrection.

18:38Ryan TerbibullAnd

18:39Ryan Terbibullthere are brothers within this fraternity that do not hold those beliefs.

18:45Ryan TerbibullAnd that's fine. I'm not in this fraternity

18:50Ryan Terbibullin order to

18:52Ryan Terbibullyeah. The fraternity is not church, know. I I go to church for church, the fraternity is my fraternity.

19:01Jay DyerOkay. The first thing I would say is, and I don't know if we're gonna do just q and a or back and forth, I don't care either way, but I mean the idea that

19:09Jay Dyerwell, you know, we just make good men better, it's a radical individualism because it's enlightenment philosophy,

19:16Jay Dyerit's just simple philosophy.

19:18Jay DyerI mean that's not actually the case because first of all, I mean just the name of the book itself is Morals and Dogma. Dogma to me doesn't sound like it's just opinion, that's the opposite of opinion, it's dogma.

19:30Jay DyerSo when you say that there's no authorities at Masonry,

19:33Jay Dyerwhy does Albert Pike call his book Morals and Dogma? Why was that handed out to so many people in the Scottish Rite? If it's not in some sense a kind of authority? Why is he one of the most honored Masons in Washington DC in terms of his confederate monument still standing there and hasn't been torn down when they turn on all the other monuments? To me that's preposterous to say that there are no authorities, because if there are no authorities,

19:53Jay Dyerwho decides that morals and dogma isn't an authority and that masonry has no authorities?

20:00Ryan TerbibullSo this is a little newer version of morals and dogma, but it's the same stuff just a nicer cover.

20:06Ryan TerbibullThis is the original preface

20:08Ryan Terbibullby Albert Pike,

20:10Ryan Terbibullpage 69. I don't know what version you have over there but it's it'll be in your version as well.

20:16Ryan TerbibullHe starts out by saying, the teachings of these readings are not sacramental

20:21Ryan TerbibullSo far as they go beyond the realm of morality into those other domains of fault and truth.

20:27Ryan TerbibullThe ancient accepted Scottish Rite uses the word dogma in its true sense of doctrine or teaching

20:33Ryan Terbibulland is not dogmatic in the odious sense of that term.

20:38Ryan TerbibullEveryone is entirely free to reject

20:41Ryan Terbibulland dissent

20:43Ryan Terbibullfrom whatsoever

20:44Ryan Terbibullherein

20:45Ryan Terbibullmay seem to be him to be untrue

20:48Ryan Terbibullor unsound.

20:49Ryan TerbibullIt is only required of him that he shall weigh what is taught, give it fair hearing and unprejudiced

20:55Ryan Terbibulljudgment.

20:57Ryan TerbibullSo that's the beginning to Morals and Dogma. Morals and Dogma, as you can see,

21:02Ryan Terbibullit is quite a lengthy book about a thousand pages.

21:06Ryan TerbibullPretty complex read.

21:08Ryan TerbibullWhat most Scottish Rite Masons today receive

21:12Ryan Terbibullsince 1983,

21:15Ryan Terbibullthere's this book Bridge to Light. This is what's given to most guys when they come through the Scottish Rite.

21:20Ryan TerbibullAnd again, on page three

21:23Ryan Terbibullit reiterates that same preface of pike

21:26Ryan Terbibullwith an addition

21:28Ryan Terbibullwith the guy who wrote this book,

21:30Ryan Terbibulldoctor Retch Hutchinson.

21:32Ryan TerbibullIt says, it expresses the opinions of doctor Retch Hutchinson

21:36Ryan Terbibullthirty third degree concerning the Scottish Rite ritual and Albert Pike's moles and dogma. We respect his opinion, offer them for the consideration and personal evaluation of each reader of this volume.

21:47Ryan TerbibullAnd then it repeats Pike's

21:49Ryan Terbibullclaim that this is not sacrament, it is not doctrine,

21:53Ryan Terbibullit is not dogma in the odious sense of the term.

21:57Ryan TerbibullIt's his ideas

21:59Ryan Terbibulland it's mine and Chase's job to study them, ponder them, and we're

22:05Ryan Terbibullallowed and encouraged to disagree with him.

22:07Chase GeyserI'd like to add a point if I may.

22:10Chase GeyserI understand from a perspective of Western Christian

22:15Chase GeyserAmerica

22:16Chase Geyservalues, American values,

22:19Chase Geyserhow it's easy to look at an organisation like the Masons and look look at it through the lens of religion.

22:26Chase GeyserWhat I mean to say is,

22:28Chase Geyserin Christianity we have the Matthews, the Marks, the Luke's, the John's, the Paul's,

22:33Chase Geyserand these canon voices that are considered to have

22:38Chase Geyseretched in pen,

22:40Chase Geysereven though pens weren't embedded yet,

22:43Chase Geyserthe word of God.

22:45Chase GeyserBut with masonry,

22:46Chase Geyserthis is really more along the lines of apologetics when we talk about the Mackeys or the Manly P Halls,

22:51Chase Geyseror the or or the Albert Pikes in the sense that, I would liken

22:56Chase Geyseran Albert Pike to masonry in the same way that I would liken a c s Lewis perhaps to Catholicism, and that nothing that c s Lewis wrote whether it's mere Christianity or another work is considered to be part of the canon of Catholicism.

23:09Chase GeyserIt's just his thoughts, his philosophies, his interpretations, his ideas

23:13Chase Geyseraround Catholicism specifically.

23:16Chase GeyserThere's not a situation in masonry where we're getting together and we're singing psalms

23:21Chase Geyserthat are the words of Albert Pike,

23:23Chase Geyserlike you would sing psalms in church that are the words of David,

23:26Chase Geyserfor example. And I just wanted to emphasize

23:28Chase Geyseragain, just like you did in your introduction Ryan,

23:31Chase Geyserthat

23:32Chase Geyseryes, these are all interesting books with interesting perspectives and philosophies, but they're by no means canon in terms of masonic philosophy in my opinion.

23:41Jay DyerMaybe

23:42Jay Dyeryou misunderstood

23:43Jay Dyerwhat I was arguing because I didn't argue that

23:46Jay Dyeryou don't claim to have quotes from Albert Pike saying that there's no dogmas. For example, I noticed in my copy from maybe ten years ago when I read this. On page 222

23:57Jay Dyerof this older version,

23:58Jay DyerI noted that it's a subjectivist relativist contradiction

24:02Jay Dyerbecause he says it is dogmatic in masonry that there's no dogma.

24:07Jay DyerSo I was doing a philosophical critique

24:10Jay Dyerand I'm asking you, is it dogmatic

24:13Jay Dyerthat there's no dogma in masonry?

24:17Ryan TerbibullWhat's your definition of dogma? Like we should start with that?

24:21Jay DyerI think it's to be how did he define it? He defined it as what did he say?

24:26Jay DyerPerfect truth. He says perfect truth or some perfection, something like that. I don't know. How how do you define dogmas?

24:32Jay DyerBeliefs that you can't question?

24:35Chase GeyserI don't believe that there are any beliefs other than the existence of God

24:39Chase Geyserthat you can't question in freemasonry.

24:42Jay DyerSo

24:43Jay Dyerthere is dogma in freemasonry?

24:46Chase GeyserIf you would define

24:47Jay DyerHow do you guys define dogma?

24:48Chase GeyserIf you would define the necessitation

24:51Chase Geyserof the belief in God as dogma, then yes, according to that definition that would be dogma.

24:56Jay DyerBecause so there are dogmas in there? There are requirements

24:59Jay Dyerfor membership.

25:01Jay DyerSo They're foundational

25:02Jay DyerIf you redefine the word dogmas, I mean requirements is not dogma anymore.

25:07Ryan TerbibullI mean, we wanna argue over words, we can do that but the

25:11Jay DyerWell, they're not words, they're your own teaching.

25:13Chase GeyserNo. They were. Jay, what are you trying to get at in terms of What the are the implications? Do you do you

25:18Jay DyerI'm not trying to be rude or No. I'm not taking it that way. Do you not understand the argument that I'm making?

25:24Chase GeyserI don't think that I do, could you rephrase it?

25:26Jay DyerThe argument was initially that masonry does not have dogmas, there's no specific authorities, there's not a canon of things that we would look to by which we would exclude people.

25:37Jay DyerBut you just admitted that you have to believe for example in a higher power, so there are at least some minimal dogmas and so it's not true that there are no dogmas in Mason.

25:44Ryan TerbibullI think I think the argument was that the words of Albert Pike are not Masonic dogma.

25:49Jay DyerNo. I'm asking you, are there any?

25:50Chase GeyserYeah. Well, you have to believe in God. So if you consider that to be a dogma, then yes.

25:54DJ BolgerIs that the only one?

25:55Jay DyerSo Are there others? Yeah. But there's just one?

25:57Ryan TerbibullWe we have what's called the ancient landmarks.

25:59Ryan TerbibullNow the landmarks can differ amongst jurisdiction.

26:03Ryan TerbibullIf I can give a step back just to we use masonic terms and I have to realize that you guys may not know what what that means. Basically it's a very decentralized.

26:11Ryan TerbibullSo

26:12Ryan Terbibullin Tennessee, there's the Grand Lodge of Tennessee that is the supreme masonic authority

26:17Ryan Terbibullfor Tennessee.

26:18Ryan TerbibullThere is no other group that tells Tennessee

26:22Ryan Terbibullwhat it can and can't do.

26:23Jay DyerYou said that they're no authorities.

26:25Jay DyerNow there's a supreme authority.

26:27Ryan TerbibullI'm talking within our structure.

26:29Jay DyerWell, are there no authorities or are there authorities?

26:32Ryan TerbibullI said no one man is an authority on masonry.

26:35Jay DyerI'm There's

26:37Jay Dyerno apostle, no authorities is what you said.

26:39Ryan TerbibullYeah. I said no one no one man is Albert Packy. Well, apostles is plural,

26:44Jay Dyerand then authorities is plural. So

26:47Ryan TerbibullThere is a system of governments within Freemason. There are authorities.

26:51Ryan TerbibullThe Grand Lodge of Tennessee.

26:52Ryan TerbibullAnd there are all of Tennessee.

26:53Jay DyerSo there's dogmas and authorities.

26:55Jay DyerYou have to keep in

26:56Chase Geysermind that,

26:58Chase GeyserI think we're I think we're talking about authorities in two different senses. There's no there's no I'm not logical or philosophical authority

27:05Chase Geyserin Masonry, but in terms of organizational But structure

27:07Jay Dyeryou have to believe in God, that would be theological. So that's nonsense. I

27:13Chase Geyserthink that it I think that you're on the semantics run here.

27:16Ryan TerbibullYeah. I think we're going on circle.

27:17Jay DyerAre you serious? Yeah. I'm serious. How was that a semantics run when he said you have to believe in God?

27:22Chase GeyserYes. Of course, you have to believe in God. So there's a member, but there's no like human authority

27:27Chase Geyserwithin the organization.

27:29Ryan TerbibullThere is

27:29Chase Geysera dogma. David Paget is the canon.

27:31Jay DyerThere is a dogma, and then there are authorities that recognize and do not recognize certain lodges. Right? There's irregular lodges? You know, think we've Are there irregular lodges?

27:39Chase GeyserYeah. They're incredibly explicit

27:41Chase Geyserin in the claim that you have to believe in a supreme being in order to be a Mason. Because so that think where we're disagreeing is on interpreting that or perceiving that as as a dogma.

27:50Jay DyerOh, just Whatever term you wanna use, if you don't like the word dogma, you can't It might be helpful.

27:54DJ BolgerIs the orthodox view on dogma? Dogma means that Well the doss can leave this in order to be orthodox.

27:59Jay DyerRight. Dogmas are beliefs that you cannot dispute or question. For example, the Nicene Creed for an orthodox Christian would be something that you can't be a Christian and say, well I don't believe in the deed of Christ, or I don't believe in you know, the teachings of you know, the council of Nicaea, something like that. Those would be things that you couldn't question

28:17Jay Dyerand still be a recognized member of the group. You would be seen as an Arian or a

28:22Chase GeyserWell, certainly if you did not believe or ceased to believe in God,

28:26Chase Geyseryou would not be able to be a Mason.

28:28Jay DyerRight. So that was argument, which was that there are dogmas, whether you wanna call them that term or not, because I can't be a Mason if I'm an atheist, right? Unless Correct. Grand orient law? Correct. Okay. So there are dogmas and that's theological, right? Belief in God is theological?

28:40Ryan TerbibullI believe your argument was that the words of Albert Pike were dogma based off of your definition of dogma.

28:47Jay DyerAgain, you misunderstood the argument.

28:48Ryan TerbibullAnd when I brought up when I brought

28:49Chase Geyserup You said, let

28:51Chase Geyserus let us just concede Yeah. That there is the dogma in Freemasonry that you have to believe in a supreme being.

28:56Ryan TerbibullBut that is But that was not the beliefs of Albert Pike or

29:00Jay DyerAlbert Pike is irrelevant. I can go to another one of these guys, and I'm just gonna make the same argument and say

29:05Ryan TerbibullAnd I would make the same argument that there is no

29:07Jay DyerYou're not listening. It's

29:09Jay Dyera presuppositional argument about the claim that there's no dogmas. And I asked you, is it a dogma that there are no dogmas? That's a philosophical argument. It doesn't have anything to do with Albert Pike.

29:20Jay DyerIs it a dogma that there's no dogmas?

29:24Ryan TerbibullI guess again, we're we're just arguing words.

29:26Jay DyerNo. It's a philosophical argument.

29:28Jay DyerYou don't understand it? I don't mean mean, I'm saying you don't understand.

29:31Ryan TerbibullI understand it. I just Okay. What's the

29:33Chase GeyserThere is no there is no dogma in Freemasonry that individual members cannot have their own dogma.

29:40Chase GeyserSo

29:42Jay Dyerit's a subjectivist and relativist? Because if I can have my own dogma, can I have a dogma that I'm a satanist and I'm a mason?

29:50Ryan TerbibullNo. So I can so then it's goima. I can get into to the landmarks and some of that if you would like. Yeah. I think that's actually that's a good

29:56DJ Bolgerthat's yeah. We kind of excel. I'm not trying to

29:58Chase Geyserlike answer around you. I'm just trying to understand.

30:00Jay DyerI think again, it's so and I don't mean to cut you off DJ, but like,

30:03Jay DyerI'm not trying to play a word game. Right? When I was if I debated an atheist, I would make the same line of argument to say, if a if a subjectivist or a relativist says,

30:11Jay Dyerthere are no absolute truths. Right? And if I respond to that guy, would say, is it an absolute truth that there are no absolute truth?

30:19Chase GeyserYeah. Only that is believing absolutes

30:20Jay Dyerwhich isn't but

30:22Jay Dyerthat is not a word game. It's a philosophical argument where you're doing a critique of the person's paradigm

30:28Jay Dyerand saying that that statement itself is a logical contradiction. So it's not a word game. It's not about semantics. It's a question of you can't say that there are no dogma. I see what you're trying and you know, It's dogmatic that you have to believe there's no dogmas. That was the question.

30:45DJ BolgerDo you wanna respond to that? I'll change topics if not, but you just No.

30:48Ryan TerbibullNo. It's okay.

30:48Chase GeyserI I understand what you're trying to say. I I would say that the the organization of Freemasonry does not prohibit people from having their own dogma, it just doesn't take a position on so many of them. Now, has its own dogmas in the sense that you have to believe in a supreme being, there's ancient landmark kind of rules and requirements associated with the You

31:05Chase Geysercan't be an atheist. Right.

31:07Ryan TerbibullYou gotta be MLL. Can be a satanist? No. No.

31:10Ryan TerbibullSo well, I thought you had to

31:12DJ Bolgerbe a monotheist.

31:13DJ BolgerYeah. Who what what if I'm a monotheistic satanist?

31:16Ryan TerbibullYeah. So there's,

31:18Ryan Terbibullagain No. I'm serious.

31:19Jay DyerYeah. There are people

31:20Ryan Terbibullthat are Can I can I finish my thought on Okay? Your own fictional and authority? So so it's decentralized. You have in Tennessee, the Grand Lodge of Tennessee.

31:28Ryan TerbibullIn America, every state has its own Grand Lodge.

31:32Ryan TerbibullThe rest of the world, it's usually every country has a Grand Lodge. But there is no overarching body. There's no Grand Lodge of America, no Grand Lodge of the world. It's decentralized.

31:41Ryan TerbibullSo

31:43Ryan Terbibullwhile

31:44Ryan Terbibullit's mostly the same, you will see small jurisdictional

31:47Ryan Terbibulldifferences. I can only speak to Tennessee and some of the ones that I'm familiar with. But as it's phrased in Tennessee and most jurisdictions will be pretty similar to this, it's a you have to have a belief in a supreme being

32:01Ryan Terbibulland the accountability

32:03Ryan Terbibullto no, excuse me. A supreme being to whom all men are accountable.

32:09Ryan TerbibullWithin that requirement, obviously, we have our own teachings. So a a supreme being

32:17Ryan Terbibullunder I think most satanist definition

32:20Ryan Terbibulldo not consider Satan to be

32:23Ryan Terbibullthe supreme being. No. He is and you know, I'm not an authority on satanism but

32:29Ryan TerbibullI I the another masonic teaching or dogma if you will Jay, is is that this supreme being is a creator god. That's that's the

32:39Ryan Terbibullsupreme architect of the universe. So

32:42Ryan Terbibullsatan as far as I know, no satanist claims that satan is a creator.

32:50Ryan TerbibullBeyond that, again it is a system of morality. There's just certain morals

32:55Ryan Terbibulland values

32:56Ryan Terbibullwithin satanism that would not be compatible

33:00Ryan Terbibullwith the moral teachings

33:02Ryan Terbibullof freemasonry.

33:03Chase GeyserI respond to that.

33:04Jay DyerYeah. Or go ahead. Did you want say No. Go ahead, Jay. Yeah. So first of all, the temple of Set as an example is a theistic satanic group. Michael Aquinas who was the famous Did you say deistic or the theistic satanistic group? Michael Aquinas was the famous army colonel who drew up the army's

33:21Jay Dyerpsychological warfare teachings

33:23Jay Dyerin his writings about black magic and using that for psyops. And his is an example of a sect that has had prominent people as its as its members, Where they believe that the supreme being is in fact Satan. So my point here is to say that when you say that I can be a

33:42Jay Dyerfreemason, I just have to be quote a theist.

33:45Jay DyerThe absurdity of this is obvious in that there's no such thing as generic theism. There's no such thing as a, well it's just a creator. Well, okay what if I think Satan is the creator? That's the absurdity of this and that's why your your lodges allow

33:57Jay DyerMuslims, Hindus,

34:00Jay DyerJews,

34:01Jay Dyerpeople of all types of religious persuasions to be joined together in a fraternity

34:06Jay Dyerunder some aegis that you say is just simply a philosophy.

34:10Jay DyerIt's not simply a philosophy when we have a whole bunch of people joining together in an idea that does include theological terminology which you already admitted.

34:18Jay DyerSo to say, so as you guys keep saying two things out of your the same different sides of your mouth. It's like, oh it's just a philosopher's returning. Oh but we actually have all these theological principles that you have to hold to. So I mean, can I be why can't I be a satanist and a monotheist

34:31Jay Dyerif you don't have dogmas beyond a higher power? Sounds like you're qualifying and and attacking on more dogmas.

34:37Chase GeyserSure. Why I there's a couple of points that come to mind. The first point that comes to mind is in in your introduction,

34:43Chase Geyseryou mentioned the of course incompatibility

34:45Chase Geyserof Freemason with Christianity because of the philosophy and ethos

34:50Chase GeyserFreemasonry

34:51Chase Geyserbeing just genuinely incompatible with

34:54Chase Geyserthe philosophy theology of Christianity. And I would say that the philosophy or theology of Satanism and almost all, if not all of its manifestations

35:03Chase Geyseris inherently incompatible with the principles values of Masonry. The second thing that I would say is

35:09Chase Geyserregardless of the technical

35:12Chase Geyseracceptance

35:13Chase Geyserof somebody of that persuasion into the fraternity, in a practical manner would virtually never happen,

35:19Chase Geyserbecause you have to have unanimous consent to have a new member initiated into a lodge. And I can't, I mean, I'm sure you could find obscure examples.

35:27Chase GeyserThere's probably examples of people who are satanists that have been members of clandestine lodges, is irregular lodges

35:33Chase Geysernot recognized by any of the official grand lodges of the world, but I don't I don't I don't

35:39Chase GeyserI I can't imagine a scenario in which a satanist would be allowed into a into a lodge. Was explicitly admitting that he's a satanist.

35:45DJ BolgerReal quick though, what exactly would a satanist if they were monotheist,

35:49DJ Bolgerwhat requirement would they be breaking where they couldn't answer?

35:54DJ BolgerYeah. If they were a monotheist, so they got through that hurdle. But what would be stopping them specifically

36:00DJ Bolgeras a would it just be the other members accepting them in? Or would there actually be a principle in which they're violating?

36:09Chase GeyserI mean on that?

36:10Ryan TerbibullYeah. At least here like it's explicit that we say we don't allow satanists.

36:14DJ BolgerOh. Oh. So that that actually is a Okay.

36:17Ryan TerbibullWe've not allowed well, I've we've only had one ever apply for membership in the lodge and he did not get in. But beyond these like base level requirements, the way you join a lodge you you petition, it's a simply an application.

36:29Ryan TerbibullThere's an interview process. A lot of times there's a

36:34Ryan Terbibullgroup that will go to your home, meet with you, meet with your spouse. There's an investigation.

36:38Ryan TerbibullThere's a background check.

36:40Ryan TerbibullThere's a interview amox in front of the lodging and different lodges can have like slightly different processes

36:46Ryan Terbibullin all of this. But but you have these you know, base level requirements

36:50Ryan Terbibulland then the lodge itself is doing its own investigation

36:54Ryan Terbibullinto your moral character and whether or not

36:57Ryan Terbibullyou're fit essentially. And we're not supposed to be We are exclusive, but we're not exclusive based off of race,

37:04Ryan Terbibullreligion

37:05Ryan Terbibullor you know, socioeconomics

37:07Ryan Terbibullor stuff like that. But it ultimately it does come down to character

37:11Ryan Terbibulland I would certainly argue that a satanist

37:14Ryan Terbibullis not of the character to be a freemason.

37:18Jay DyerSo the point was not

37:20Jay Dyerare there satanists getting into Masonic lodges, it was an example that was used to try to illustrate

37:26Jay Dyerthe ambiguity

37:27Jay Dyerand the absurdity of saying that there's no dogmas and we're not theological.

37:31Jay DyerOh, but you have to believe in theism.

37:33Jay DyerOh, but it's not the satanist. So now we're beginning to see that their beginning opening statement was not true. Right? They started qualifying all the things that they really mean by the terms. And when Chase said that you know, one reason that we wouldn't

37:47Jay Dyeraccept

37:48Jay Dyerthe satanists is because of the teachings of masonry are antithetical to satanism. Well, according to Albert Pikos we've already seen today as an example, not an authority but an example.

37:57Jay DyerHe says and these people agreed that

37:59Jay Dyerno one is over you. No one determines truth for you. Truth is something that you determine and you can decide what the teachings are and still be a Mason.

38:08Jay DyerSo that's a subjectivism and relativism that I do is absolutely

38:13Jay Dyerthink is the problem in May

38:14Ryan TerbibullCan I

38:14Chase Geyserpush back real quick? I don't mean to interrupt you. I want you to finish your thought. Yeah. When I hear the term subjectivism to say that something is subjective,

38:23Chase GeyserThe the way that I interpret that is

38:25Chase Geyserlike a subjectivist believes that everything is subjective.

38:29Chase GeyserMhmm. And I think there's a distinction

38:30Chase Geyserbetween arguing for subjectivism

38:33Chase Geyserand having a subjective

38:35Chase Geyserphilosophy.

38:36Chase GeyserRight? So like like Pike isn't arguing

38:40Chase Geyserthat whatever you believe is true for you in the sense of like a contemporary

38:46Chase Geysermodern day subjectivist.

38:47Jay DyerOkay. Well, can I quote him? You go ahead.

38:50Jay DyerIt is our duty always to press forward,

38:53Jay Dyerthough absolute truth is unattainable,

38:56Jay Dyerthe masonry strives towards the light. Yeah. So there's no absolute truth apparently.

39:02Chase GeyserI I think that saying that something is unattainable is not the same thing as saying that it doesn't exist. I think it's unattainable for us to go to Pluto today, but I believe that Pluto exists.

39:11Jay DyerHow is it unattainable

39:12Jay Dyerif it exists?

39:15Chase GeyserThat's a good question.

39:16DJ BolgerIs it You could argue with human limitation, that is the problem?

39:19Chase GeyserYeah. I think I think he's probably I I haven't read that the context around that specific passage, so I can't speak for Pike, but he's probably arguing that in our in our state as humans, where we don't have the capacity to attain or understand absolute truth.

39:34Ryan TerbibullWell Yeah. Mean, three of the pillars of You can't say that brotherly love, relief and truth. We're we're that's not object

39:40Ryan Terbibulllike truth

39:41Ryan Terbibullis a core value.

39:42Chase GeyserWhat do you mean Jay that that can't be said?

39:45Jay DyerPhilosophical perspective, critiquing this in terms of the argumentation to say that there are no dogmas because there are no absolute truths. That's the context of where he's saying this. He says for example, perfect perfect truth is not attainable anywhere.

39:57Jay DyerThat's antithetical to christian theology when Jesus says I am the way the truth and the life. And so certainly God and and Jesus are perfection

40:05Jay Dyerin terms of truth. So for Albert Pike to say that this to say this, that's a subjectivist relativist line of argumentation.

40:12Jay DyerAnd I'm arguing, let me finish this argument because this was what I was trying to argue a minute ago. When you said that satanism is antithetical to masonry,

40:20Jay DyerI'm saying that Albert Pike's subjectivism

40:22Jay Dyerhere that there's no truth that's ultimate or absolute that we can't know it and we can't obtain it. And you can determine the philosophies as you said a minute ago.

40:31Chase GeyserBut he doesn't say that there's no absolute truth. He just says truth

40:34Chase Geyseris unattainable.

40:36Jay DyerOkay. Well, then nobody's attained to it. So you can say theoretically that it exists but nobody has it. It still it still doesn't defeat the point that nobody has perfect truth or absolute truth. So maybe it's out there, but it doesn't exist and we don't have it. Fine. Cast it however you want. That's still satanic in principle.

40:52Chase GeyserSo I mean, even the fact that Albert Pike in that sentence is saying that absolute truth is unattainable is implicitly stating that free masonry makes no claims to have absolute truth. Okay. So

41:02Chase GeyserThe bible Not actually

41:03Jay Dyera theology. And the bible and truth and Christ don't have absolute truth.

41:06Chase GeyserWell, don't necessarily have to believe that.

41:09Chase GeyserYou can be a Mason and disagree with Albert Pike.

41:11Jay DyerThank you. So it's subjectivist and relativist, that's my point, and that's what satanism says. It's absolutely it's absolutely synthesizable with satanism.

41:18Ryan TerbibullIt simply

41:19Ryan Terbibulldoes not concern itself with that. If if if if we were

41:24Ryan Terbibulla religion

41:26Ryan Terbibullin making these claims,

41:28Ryan TerbibullI think you'd have a better case.

41:30Jay DyerOkay.

41:30Ryan TerbibullThere's plenty of No, context. There's plenty of groups within society.

41:34Ryan TerbibullThe Boy Scouts for example. There's a Bad example.

41:38Jay DyerThe the context that

41:40Jay DyerThe context of the context of Albert Paika. Yeah.

41:43Ryan TerbibullThere there's there's tons of groups that that have certain base level requirements,

41:48Ryan Terbibullbut then leave

41:51Ryan Terbibullsubjects that are not

41:54Ryan Terbibullthe purview or the the

41:56Chase GeyserUse Alcoholics Anonymous as an example. We've done this a little bit before. Let's

41:59Chase Geyseruse Alcoholics Anonymous as an example. You have to believe in a higher power in order to go mid to

42:04Jay Dyer12 separate It's based on Masonic principles.

42:06DJ BolgerA a

42:07Jay Dyera s? Yeah. Oh.

42:08Chase GeyserSo you think that

42:10Chase GeyserAlcoholics Anonymous inherently denies Christ or is incompatible? That's a

42:14Chase Geyserstraw man. It sound no. I'm not trying to do this. I'm not trying to fuck with you. Excuse me, guys. But

42:19Chase Geyserdo you believe that alcohol This is not intentionally a straw man or distraction. I just wanna know your answer. Do you believe that Alcoholics Anonymous is incompatible with Christianity in the same way that you believe Freemasonry is incompatible with Christianity?

42:30Jay DyerIt depends on how far Alcoholics

42:32Jay DyerAnonymous would try to enforce their principles of generic theism. So it really depends.

42:38Jay DyerAnd I mean, there's a So there's a degree to There's a degree to which it's acceptable.

42:43Jay DyerTheir statements are

42:44Jay Dyersufficiently vague

42:46Jay Dyerto allow for all kinds of possible things. So that would really depend upon the specifics. But Albert Pike is arguing the context of God.

42:54Jay DyerThis whole chapter is about theology,

42:56Jay Dyernot philosophy,

42:58Jay Dyertheology. So he's saying that in terms of theology, perfect truth truth is not attainable anywhere.

43:04Jay DyerDo you believe that perfect truth is not attainable anywhere?

43:07Chase GeyserI I believe that Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the light, but I don't believe that in our current state we're able to

43:13Chase Geyserhave like an omniscient

43:15Chase Geyserunderstanding of absolute truth.

43:17Chase GeyserI think there's all sorts of things happening in the universe that I don't know. There's what you know, there's what you don't know, and there's what you don't know that you don't know. I don't claim just because I'm a Christian to have attained absolute truth. I believe that I've attained absolute truth in the sense that I know who God is and I believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God. So in the sense that, would you call, I mean, would you call that absolute truth?

43:37Chase GeyserBecause when I hear the word absolute truth, I mean all true. I I think of all truth.

43:41Jay DyerNo. So there's nothing in the word absolute truth or objective truth that necessitates omniscience.

43:45Jay DyerAnd so I think that Okay. See what the irony here is that it's the Mason.

43:49Chase GeyserYes. I believe you wanna play the word game. I understand. I understand. Well, I'm not trying to mess with you. I believe in absolute truth. I am an objectivist. I am not a subjectivist.

43:58Chase GeyserOkay. Just to answer your question more directly.

44:00Jay DyerSo the whole point of this was to say that the teachings of satanism are that you are your own God, which is what satan says in the garden to Adam and Eve. You determine reality. You determine what's true and what's false. And the original presentation that you guys gave as to why Masonry is so awesome is because it doesn't have apostles, it doesn't have authorities, it doesn't have dogmas.

44:18Jay DyerIt's simply a philosophy and you can kind of craft it as you want with it from within it. But then we saw that, no, there's actually a lot of requirements, lot of dogmas, a lot of qualifications

44:26Jay Dyerand they teach a subjectivist relativist idea at the same time as contradicting it with the idea that there are dogmas and authorities.

44:33Jay DyerThat was argument.

44:34Chase GeyserI don't believe that Freemasonry

44:36Chase Geyserteaches a subjectivist relativist philosophy. Okay. Just because Albert Pike just because Albert Pike says that absolute truth is unattainable

44:44Chase GeyserMhmm. Does not mean that absolute truth does not exist. I I am an objectivist. I believe in that. Even if I'm missing even if I'm the one misinterpreting Pike here, it doesn't matter what Pike says. It's

44:55Chase Geyserjust his opinion.

44:56Jay DyerOkay. Who does it matter

44:58Jay Dyerin in Mason in terms of who said it? Because there were authorities apparently. So who determines the regular and the irregular lodges?

45:06Jay DyerSo I can go back

45:07Ryan Terbibullto that with

45:09Ryan Terbibullthese ideas of the landmarks.

45:10Ryan TerbibullEach lodge, each grand lodge

45:13Ryan Terbibullis the supreme authority in that jurisdiction.

45:16Ryan TerbibullIt will recognize or unrecognize

45:18Ryan Terbibullanother

45:19Ryan TerbibullGrand Lodge.

45:21Jay DyerSo there are authorities and there are things that will get you unrecognized.

45:25Ryan TerbibullWe were working on all of that AJ, so you know.

45:28Jay DyerWell, I'm sorry that you don't like me going back to it when you're referring to the same fallacious argument from before. I'm gonna go back.

45:33Ryan TerbibullYeah. I I I don't see how anything I've said is incongruent.

45:36Ryan TerbibullThat there is a Masonic authority, there is a structure

45:41Ryan Terbibullthat governs a governance structure of the fraternity

45:45Ryan Terbibullthat is completely different than saying that one man Albert Pike or I didn't make that Origen as an authority. Didn't make the argument. The lie argument was that they aren't authorities and then you try to put words in my mouth and say that I I learn that I saw Say that there are no authorities. As he

45:58Jay Dyerargued in your opening statement, there's no authorities.

46:01Ryan TerbibullIn the context of I specifically pointed out those books and those authors, and I said that one man does not speak for Masonry. Okay. So

46:09Ryan Terbibullnot one man. It is a governance structure

46:12Ryan Terbibullof freemasonry. Yeah. So you're

46:14Jay Dyerequivocating and changing, you're moving the goalpost from the opening statement saying authorities and you're saying that, oh, I just know one dude doesn't

46:21Chase GeyserIn the opening statement, he said there is no one man who speaks for He did.

46:25DJ BolgerBut he also said there's no apostles and authorities.

46:28Jay DyerSo In no context. Okay. Fine. So there are there is an authority that is a body. Correct?

46:34Ryan TerbibullThere's a government structure Okay. To free Well, there are authorities and

46:38Jay Dyeryou do have authorities that you submit to and you can be removed from the lodge. Right?

46:41DJ BolgerYeah. Okay. So why did you

46:43Jay Dyercast it as if it's a free thinking of sort of organization with no dogmas?

46:47Ryan TerbibullI didn't cast it at that. I I started my opening statement by saying that you were going to being bring quotes

46:52Ryan Terbibullfrom individuals

46:54Ryan Terbibulland try, which you did do when you pointed out that the name was Molin Dogma, you attempted to make the argument that this is Masonic.

47:00Jay DyerNo. Didn't, No.

47:02Jay DyerYou missed the argument.

47:03Chase GeyserYou're still fundamentally misunderstanding.

47:05Chase GeyserWhen I

47:05Ryan TerbibullAnd then when I corrected you that this that the words of Albert Pike are not masonic dogma, we went in this No. Circular argument.

47:12Jay DyerIt wasn't an argument. It was a contradiction logically to say that there are dogmas that there's there's a dogma that there's no dogmas. There is I was making a dog joke about the name

47:20Chase Geyserof dogma that there's no dogmas. There's just no there's there's there's just few dogmas. Like if you So there are dogmas? Yes. If you would consider the requirement

47:29Chase Geyserthat

47:31Chase Geyseryou have to believe in God in order to be a freemason, a dogma, then by that definition,

47:35Chase Geyserthere is a dogma.

47:37Jay DyerDid you not just then qualify that I can't be a satanist and be a mason? So there's now other qualifications that would exclude me. So there's more to the dogmas. That's why you guys are being dishonest.

47:45DJ BolgerWell, is is the definition

47:47DJ Bolgerof dogma different for you guys? That was why I was asking what it is for orthodox and not

47:50Jay Dyerfor The thing gets you excluded from the group. How's that? Yeah. It was dogmas.

47:55Ryan TerbibullYeah. Thank you. So the claim

47:56Jay DyerThe idea that there's not dogmas is not true. Thank you.

47:59Ryan TerbibullThat that wasn't the point that was made. The point was that the words of Albert Pike are not masonic dogma.

48:04Jay DyerYeah. That's a straw man dude. I didn't argue that his words are dogma. I said that it's funny that he titled his book Morals and Dogma, and I said the contradiction is the argument that the dogma is there's no dogma.

48:15Ryan TerbibullHow is it You affirm

48:16Chase GeyserHow is it compatible

48:18Chase Geyserto claim that there are dogmas, which I'm not even disputing.

48:21Chase GeyserBut then simultaneously

48:22Chase Geyserclaim that the organization advocates for subjectivism and relativism. I mean, there's absolute dogmas, then it's inherently not subjectivist or relativist.

48:30Jay DyerExactly. That's the point Chase. It's a contradiction.

48:33Jay DyerI'm arguing you guys contradict yourself. That's what you do in debates as you point out logical contradictions.

48:38Chase GeyserOkay. And can you tie it directly to how any of what we've been talking about for the last twenty minutes or so makes

48:45Chase GeyserFreemasonry incompatible with Christianity?

48:47Chase GeyserWell, is the fine amount

48:48Jay Dyerof question debate. Can't affirm any kind of subjectivism

48:51Jay Dyerand moral moral relativism in terms of even theological

48:55Jay Dyerauthorities. You have

48:56Ryan Terbibullto believe that there's some kind of theological authorities.

48:59Ryan TerbibullWhich are they who and chased us.

49:00Jay DyerYeah. And who are the theological authorities?

49:03Chase GeyserJimmy? Christ.

49:05Ryan TerbibullOur our my

49:07Ryan Terbibulldogma

49:08Ryan Terbibullwhen it comes to my religion is is Christianity. It's not freemason.

49:12Jay DyerOkay.

49:12Jay DyerSo why Christianity?

49:14Ryan TerbibullMe, firstly, I'm loosely protestant.

49:17Ryan TerbibullI'd rather not like,

49:19Ryan Terbibulland that's my congregation here.

49:21Jay DyerWould you don't to

49:22Ryan TerbibullOkay. My family too much.

49:23Jay DyerHistoric you're protestant. Historically,

49:26Jay Dyerare there

49:27Jay Dyerbodies of people that can determine what's normative to be a Christian and not not be a Christian?

49:32Chase GeyserWhat do you mean by can? There certainly are that have,

49:35Chase Geyserbut what do you mean by can?

49:36Jay DyerDo you believe that anybody has the normative authority to declare in church history at any point, when whenever or never, that there are these people that count as Christians and these people that don't. Because it seems absurd to me because you guys accept this authority amongst the masons. Mhmm. But I'm gonna bet that historically,

49:55Jay Dyeryou don't accept that there's any historical group that has that authority. I would I would say that Jesus Christ has that authority solely. Historically, Chase. After Jesus in the history of the church.

50:05Chase GeyserDo I believe that anybody has the authority to speak for God or the theology of what's true or not true?

50:10Jay DyerDoes anybody in church history have the normative authority to declare who is and is not a part of this

50:15Chase GeyserYou mean actually legitimately

50:17Chase Geyserhave the authority or those who have exercised that authority?

50:21Chase GeyserBecause yes, I could look at the Nicene Council, I could say, alright, they had authority, they they established this this

50:25Jay DyerDo you believe that they have the normative authority to do that? No. Or do think they asserted No.

50:29Chase GeyserI don't I don't really think that anybody has perfectly been able to speak for God since Jesus Christ.

50:34Jay DyerOkay. Do you agree or do you a different position?

50:36Ryan TerbibullLoosely with that. Yeah. Okay.

50:38DJ BolgerBy the way, do you accept the canon of scripture now? The canon of scripture? Yeah. Yes. That's 66 books?

50:45Chase GeyserProbably. I don't know. I don't know that it's relevant. I don't know that it's relevant.

50:50Jay DyerSo not relevant who decides what books make up a bible? Let me let

50:54Chase Geyserme I'm asking because because the the fundamental question of the debate is whether or not

50:59Chase Geyserfreemasonry is compatible with Christianity.

51:01Jay DyerI wanna know which branch

51:03Jay Dyerof Christianity. No. I wanna know what you think Christianity is that's relevant.

51:06Chase GeyserWhat I think Christianity is? Believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God that he died and rose again.

51:10DJ BolgerWhy is it not a fair

51:11Jay Dyerquestion to ask if you believe in church history that anybody has the authority to do

51:15Chase Geyserbe sitting here as a Muslim and having the same debate and making the same points.

51:19Chase GeyserI'll say irrelevant what my faith is. You're proving my point. No. It's irrelevant what my faith is.

51:24Jay DyerHow is it irrelevant?

51:25Chase GeyserTo the question of whether or not Christianity is compatible with freemasonry. You could have two atheists having the same debate where one said Christianity is compatible with freemasonry and another atheist says it's not.

51:34Jay DyerBecause you claim to be Christian or representing a form of Christianity that's compatible. I wanna know what you think Christianity is.

51:41DJ BolgerJust

51:43DJ Bolgerso, I don't think this is actually swaying for the prompts because

51:46DJ Bolgerit's it's actually really important whether or not you accept authority historically in the church or not. Because let's just say for example that you accept that the you know, the

51:59DJ Bolgerwhat's it called? The putting together of the books in you know, whatever council that was. I can't think about this at the right time, right now. But nonetheless,

52:06DJ Bolgerthere have been other declarations

52:08DJ Bolgerin the church that free masonry is to be condemned and you'll be excommunicated.

52:12DJ BolgerSo if you were to you know, submit to authority in that sense, that'd be a direct contradiction to

52:18DJ Bolgerso Freemasonry at the time. Not I don't know, I'm not sure I'll make your point for you. I'm just trying to demonstrate that. I think it actually is ties into the debate prompt.

52:25Jay DyerI'm

52:26Jay Dyermaking the argument, again, me make it very clear. I'm making the argument that it's ironic that these individuals will accept

52:33Jay Dyera decentralized

52:34Jay Dyerauthority about who's in and out of Masonry, but when we ask them about Christianity,

52:39Jay Dyerthere's no actual authority or normative authority within church history to do anything like that. I think that's just absurd.

52:44Ryan TerbibullWell, equating freemasonry with a religion as such as Christianity is absurd. That's the point that we're we're trying to make.

52:52Ryan TerbibullIt's not that my Christian beliefs aren't important, but we're we're not here to debate But you said that Christianity was a ox eve.

52:58Jay DyerYou said, in in your opening statement, you said Christianity is above your tie to the lodge.

53:02Ryan TerbibullWhat? We're tied now. I said

53:04Jay DyerYes, you did. You said that You you like mercenally submits. You said that the duty of the mason under Christ is above the duty to the brothers of

53:10Chase Geyserthe

53:11Chase Geyserduty of a mason to his own faith.

53:14Ryan TerbibullMy my my duty is

53:16Ryan Terbibullto Christ over the duty to the lot.

53:18Jay DyerRight. Yeah. Okay. That's my point. Exactly.

53:20DJ BolgerWhat were you seeing personally as them or more broadly as like all people?

53:24Ryan TerbibullJust like any other I'm a member of the National City Club. It's a private clause downtown.

53:28Jay DyerA false equation. No. To equate that to freemasonry is a total totally false.

53:32Ryan TerbibullJust take your pick of any group.

53:35Jay DyerKnow? Those groups don't require a belief in generic monotheism and

53:38Chase GeyserWell, think, yes, Alex Anonymous is a legit example. I mean, this is an organization that requires a belief in the supreme being in order to go through the 12 steps, as part of the 12 steps and if you're But

53:46Jay Dyeryour organization is not just requiring belief in a generic theism as we've seen, as we actually suss that out. There's all of these other things that come into play which is, and I'm arguing that the rest of the ethos of that system and the teachings that you guys have is antithetical to Christianity. First of all, there is no such thing as generic theism. And I'm illustrating that with the the satanic point.

54:08Chase GeyserYeah. And what what is it? Freemasonry doesn't

54:11Chase Geyseradvocate that generic theism is true. It just accepts people of all faiths if they believe in a

54:16Ryan TerbibullIt never makes the claim that all faiths are equal, that we're all it's all the same God.

54:20Jay DyerOkay. So how do you reconcile

54:23Jay Dyerthe the

54:24Jay Dyercould I for example be a member of

54:28Jay Dyera the communist party because they don't make any claims about anything. Let's say that there's a bunch of Marxist communists and I say I'm a Christian Marxist. Does that does that make sense?

54:39Chase GeyserI'm not following you, sorry. He's asking if it's possibly a Christian and a Marxist.

54:42Jay DyerIs it antithetical to be a Christian and a member of the Marxist party?

54:45Chase GeyserI would say so.

54:47Chase GeyserOkay.

54:47Jay DyerProbably. Is it is it antithetical to be a member of a Gnostic sect and to be I'm

54:52Chase Geysersure there are examples of people that felt that they were Marxist and Christian.

54:56Jay DyerThat's not what

54:57Chase GeyserI asked. My but my theory I

54:58Jay Dyerasked is it theologically compatible?

55:01Ryan TerbibullAm I saying

55:03Ryan Terbibullno? Marxism, I would say no.

55:04Jay DyerOkay. Is it theologically

55:06Jay Dyersensible to be a Christian and a Gnostic?

55:10Chase GeyserYou know what?

55:11Chase GeyserI think I might change my position. I'm not a communist by any means, I hate communism.

55:15Chase GeyserBut I think you could be a Christian and a communist, because I think that we all we all miss the mark in our attempt to be Christian. I mean, there's so many different ways that I think any of us could be pointed out, certainly in judgment. The ways that we've behaved, or acted, or believed that's hypocritical to the to the to the faith.

55:31Chase GeyserAnd so I would say that if somebody really genuinely believes that Jesus Christ died, rose again

55:35Chase Geyserfor the forgiveness of all sins, and they happen to be of a communist persuasion,

55:40Chase Geysereven though those philosophies are inherently incompatible, I can't really think of any political philosophy that's a 100% congruent with Christianity other than just Christianity.

55:49Jay DyerIs it possible to be

55:50Ryan Terbibulla Gnostic and a Christian at the same time? Define Gnosticism.

55:53Ryan TerbibullThe early Christian sects that teach the Gnostic teaching. My personal belief is Gnosticism

55:58Ryan Terbibullis heretical, but I think I think a Gnostic would believe themselves to be.

56:02Jay DyerSo, Ojan, you keep saying my personal beliefs, you don't think that is objectively the case, you just think that it's subjective? So this is the masonic might double.

56:09Chase GeyserHe's saying it's true because this is Orson of belief. Yeah.

56:12Ryan TerbibullYeah. Tell you what I believe. Well, they're Protestants.

56:13DJ BolgerRight? So, I mean Yeah. Aren't you the only so

56:17DJ BolgerOrthodox and Catholics would say different than, I mean, it up to each Protestant to decide that for themselves?

56:22DJ BolgerGave a different framework of of belief than you do.

56:27Jay DyerSo again,

56:28Jay Dyerlike the

56:29Jay Dyerinitial argument that there's no authorities which was qualified to be, there are authorities in the sense of bodies who govern the masonic

56:36Jay Dyerorders

56:37Jay Dyerand decide who's in and who's out.

56:39Jay DyerTells me again that what you find is at every point when you really boil into what they mean, it gets redefined

56:47Jay Dyerto be the very thing that they initially said in the sales pitch

56:50Jay Dyeris not that. Right? So the sales pitch is it's a free thinking society of men building a better world to make men better.

56:57Jay DyerWhat is the standard by which you judge and know what makes something better or good? What's the value judgment there?

57:04Chase GeyserYou know, that's a good question. I don't know that it's explicit. There are certainly opinions, there's certainly a culture that's relative.

57:11Chase GeyserBut it's not arguing for relativism.

57:13Chase GeyserNo. It's arguing

57:14Chase Geyserfor everybody pursuing the best version of themselves without making so many explicit

57:19Jay DyerThat's claims to what that relativism.

57:21Chase GeyserLet me ask you this Jay. Here we go. What's up to you? Would you say would you say that

57:25Chase GeyserLutheranism

57:26Chase Geyseris incompatible with Christianity?

57:29Jay DyerWe don't recognize Lutheranism as Christianity.

57:32Chase GeyserOkay. What about any form of Protestantism?

57:34Chase GeyserNo. Whether it's Baptist, Church of Christ,

57:37Chase Geyserjust not Christian?

57:38Jay DyerIncompatible.

57:39Jay DyerChristian in name, but not authentically.

57:40Chase GeyserOkay. So the only legitimate authentic Christians in your point of view are Greek Orthodox?

57:46Jay DyerNo. Any Orthodox.

57:47Chase GeyserAny Orthodox. Excuse me. I'm not trying to put words in your mouth. Okay. So if you are not an Orthodox Christian, even if you think that you're going to a Christian church or you're a Christian, you're not legitimately a Christian, you're either mistaken or fallen or Mhmm.

57:57Jay DyerOkay. How is that incompatible with with I'm

58:00Chase Geysernot making a claim, I just wanted to point it So

58:03Jay Dyera rhetorical point to make me seem like the dogmatist and you guys are the free thinkers, which is why I preemptively argued at the beginning that they're actually dogmatist and not free thinkers.

58:10Ryan TerbibullYeah. Can we've we've talked a lot about like what we're not and all this, but I'm I'm happy to just talk about what we are. You can call it dogma if you're It's a sales pitch.

58:17Chase GeyserI'm just know, for the sake of the audience, either listening online or or here, Jay does not believe that you're a Christian unless you're orthodox. Yeah.

58:23Jay DyerSo So again, this was a rhetorical note. It's not an argument. It's a rhetorical. This is an appeal to the audience fallacy. I want everybody to note that.

58:30Chase GeyserYeah. Alright. Let me ask you this and let me ask you a little bit different question. Can you

58:34Ryan TerbibullWould anyone just like to know? Can you believe?

58:36Chase GeyserCan you be Well, what's an example like a another secular organization?

58:41Chase GeyserCan you be a member of

58:43Chase Geyserthe Green Party and a Christian? Or is the Green Party incompatible with Christianity?

58:47Chase GeyserThe Libertarian Party. How about another example? Can you be a a formal member, dues paying member whatever of the Libertarian party and and is is that compatible with Christianity?

58:55Jay DyerYour question is a false analogy comparing it to the masonic society, which I do not accept and do not grant is a non theological

59:04Jay Dyersociety. Your argument is premised on that and the whole opening 20 demonstrated

59:09Jay Dyerthat you guys are theologically inclined.

59:11Jay DyerYou just act like you're not. So it's a false equivalence.

59:17Jay DyerWhat is it? The Masonic Lodge is not like the Green Party because the Masonic Lodge requires theological beliefs even though you say you don't.

59:22Chase GeyserThey just really weren't the belief in a supreme being though. If it is a compatible It's

59:26Chase Geysera compatible belief No. With Christianity because our Oceania also has a zodice.

59:31Jay DyerNotice what he just did there. He said, we only require belief in a supreme authority when we already saw in the first thirty minutes that he qualified that to say, well, can't be a satanist and you gotta believe this, you gotta believe that. So there's all these other things that's a sales bitch when they say, it's just this one thing you have to believe. Then they turn around and qualify it with a giant paragraph of all the other things that you can't be and have to believe. It's inconsistent.

59:52Jay DyerThat's the point.

59:54Jay DyerYou don't see that argument? No. Oh, come on dude. I don't. One dogma that's unqualified by giant paragraph of actually what it really means. It's not one dogma.

1:00:05Chase GeyserIt's not a what? I'm sorry.

1:00:06Jay DyerIt's not one dogma.

1:00:08Jay DyerOne dogma. It's not

1:00:09Chase Geyserjust one dogma. Very few dogmas.

1:00:11Jay DyerK. So moving the goalpost is what we call that.

1:00:15Ryan TerbibullYeah.

1:00:17Ryan TerbibullSo so there's like Well,

1:00:18Chase GeyserI'm asking for membership. I'm sorry. Go ahead, Ryan.

1:00:21Ryan TerbibullYeah.

1:00:22Ryan TerbibullWe'll call it sales pitch. However you wanna frame it, you can do that.

1:00:26Ryan TerbibullIt's just the truth.

1:00:29Ryan TerbibullI said the simple version was a belief in supreme being and then I said there's more to it than that and then we can get into it later. There's no attempt to hide or it's it's a simplification for the matter of debate.

1:00:39Jay DyerIt's moving the goalpost, that's not simplification.

1:00:42Jay DyerWe'll call it what you One's a fallacy and one's explaining.

1:00:43Ryan TerbibullThere's

1:00:45Ryan Terbibulllots of beliefs and teachings within Masonry.

1:00:49Ryan TerbibullThere's few requirements

1:00:51Ryan Terbibullor dogmas,

1:00:52Ryan Terbibullone of which is this belief in a supreme being to whom all men are accountable, that's the way it's worded in Tennessee,

1:00:57Ryan Terbibullmight be worded differently in

1:00:59Ryan Terbibullother jurisdictions.

1:01:01Ryan TerbibullTennessee, you have to be a

1:01:04Ryan Terbibullof lawful age which we require

1:01:06Ryan Terbibull18, some jurisdictions it's 21.

1:01:09Ryan TerbibullYou can't be a female,

1:01:10Ryan Terbibullyou can't be an atheist,

1:01:13Ryan TerbibullYou have to be of sound mind. We say you can't be an old man in dotage

1:01:17Ryan Terbibullwhich is essentially you know, you have to To match your your moral fact. Yeah. Can't be

1:01:22Ryan TerbibullJoe Biden.

1:01:24Ryan TerbibullYeah, there's some base level requirements.

1:01:26Ryan TerbibullAnd then,

1:01:27Ryan Terbibullas we are interviewing people,

1:01:30Ryan Terbibullwe try to discover

1:01:31Ryan Terbibullyour moral character so to speak. And you know, that can be subjective I would suppose, know, we're not experts in that but we we we do our best in trying to figure out who you are as the individual.

1:01:44Ryan TerbibullFor me at least, I would say, know, if you're a satanist,

1:01:48Ryan Terbibulldon't meet the requirements. If you're a communist, would say that would also Yeah. I meet the requirements.

1:01:52Jay DyerBut is it up to you?

1:01:53Ryan TerbibullIt's up to the individual lodge and it's a unanimous vote. So yeah, in some ways if

1:01:59Jay DyerSo one lodge could accept the sadness, another one couldn't.

1:02:02Ryan TerbibullIt's theoretically possible, but I've been a Mesa for eighteen years now. I know thousands of Masons I've never met. Yeah. Boyarin isn't that. It's it's it's

1:02:09Ryan TerbibullCould a lodge let someone in who shouldn't get in? Yes. So That's what happens.

1:02:13Jay DyerThe question is, how do you determine what good moral character is? What's the standard? And Chase said that's a good question. So

1:02:19Jay Dyerif this is a society based around ethics and values and

1:02:24Jay Dyervalue judgments, those are metaphysical

1:02:26Jay Dyerethical claims. I wanna know what the good is. How do we determine the good?

1:02:30Chase GeyserWell, think that's up to it's

1:02:32Chase Geyserup to you with your relationship with God.

1:02:34Jay DyerOkay. But your other masonic brothers can be Hindus who determine the good according to Hinduism. Right?

1:02:40Chase GeyserYeah. There's a situation in which that's the case. Yeah.

1:02:42Jay DyerOkay. So how do we know what the good is? It sounds relativistic.

1:02:45Chase GeyserI don't know that Freemasonry

1:02:46Chase Geysermakes a claim as to which of those

1:02:49Jay Dyerpersuasions is correct.

1:02:51Jay DyerIt doesn't So then how are you making good men better if you don't even know whether Hinduism is better than Protestantism or not?

1:02:57Ryan TerbibullBecause it doesn't make those claims in the context of like path to salvation.

1:03:01Ryan TerbibullWhen it comes our system like you asked, how do we make good men better? We do have moral and philosophical teachings.

1:03:07DJ BolgerWhich are what? Based on what?

1:03:10Ryan TerbibullPhilosophy and morals that are brought in that are Hersch and Russell's No. No. You tease Yeah. Unless let me answer and I'll tell you, that's easy. You can just quit cutting me off and I'll just tell you. So

1:03:20Ryan Terbibullwe teach the four carnal virtues. Four to do, prudence, temperance and justice.

1:03:23Jay DyerWhy are we supposed to accept those? Like who says who?

1:03:27Ryan TerbibullThis is what we teach.

1:03:29Jay DyerOkay. But why are we supposed to think that that's right?

1:03:32Chase GeyserYou don't really have to.

1:03:34Jay DyerWell, do they make a claim? Relativism is a back to business, which we've been thinking a Wait. Do they

1:03:38DJ Bolgermake a claim that that's right? Or is it just that's part of the group and if

1:03:41Chase Geyseryou wanna join it, so be it?

1:03:44Chase GeyserWell, we

1:03:44Ryan Terbibullwe teach that these yeah, that those are right. We told us the,

1:03:49Ryan Terbibullyou know, the seven liberal arts and sciences are the way to make your a way to make yourself a better man, the trivium I'm

1:03:55Jay Dyerstarting to doubt all of the Masonic conspiracies now because there's no way that this sect could have actually organized any meaningful revolution in history. That's a joke. It's a joke. Yeah. It's just a joke.

1:04:06Jay DyerRather get mad now so.

1:04:07Chase GeyserWell, I'm not angry. I just don't have a response.

1:04:10Ryan TerbibullNo. That's

1:04:11Ryan Terbibullyou asked for for us to answer a question, we start to ask Okay. When you come Do you think that you have to be full

1:04:16Jay Dyeryou mentioned philosophy. Do you think you have to be philosophically

1:04:19Jay Dyerconsistent in your argumentation?

1:04:21Jay DyerSure.

1:04:22Chase GeyserDo you have to be For what? To be a Mason? In a debate.

1:04:26Chase GeyserYeah. Yeah. I think that would be ideal.

1:04:28Chase GeyserYeah. Okay.

1:04:29Jay DyerSo can I make fallacious arguments against Masonry or would you call it out?

1:04:33Chase GeyserWe'll call

1:04:33Jay Dyerit out. Thank you. So when you guys make bad arguments and I ask you what the standard of the good is and you say it's just these virtues, and then you say that a And so

1:04:40Ryan Terbibullit's just these virtues.

1:04:42Jay DyerOkay. You keep you keep It is those and more. It's part of it and more, yeah. Mhmm. There's a lot to it. And then you say that a Hindu can be in and he can have his system and this other guy over here can be a protestant and whatever.

1:04:54Jay DyerThat's the point is that there is no standard of good by which you're making good men better. It's arbitrary and I can't figure out how am I gonna be a philosophically better man, we're gonna make good men better. If there's no standard of what makes men good. If it's subjective and you allow

1:05:11Jay Dyersatanic demonic people like Hindus, they have a satanic religion. If they're allowed to come in and say that, well, my standard of good is to worship Shiva, I can be can I be a thuggy and be a Mason?

1:05:23Jay DyerTemple Of Doom?

1:05:25Ryan TerbibullI don't know where that is.

1:05:27DJ BolgerIt's a joke, dude.

1:05:28Ryan TerbibullI don't know. Yeah.

1:05:28Chase GeyserYeah. Nobody's seen Temple of Durham?

1:05:31Chase GeyserIt's incompatible with Christianity.

1:05:33DJ BolgerYeah.

1:05:34DJ BolgerOkay. Actually, yeah. Is.

1:05:36DJ BolgerThis is a let's pivot for a second and talk about

1:05:39Ryan TerbibullThank you.

1:05:39DJ BolgerOaths.

1:05:41DJ BolgerThis is an interesting topic because

1:05:43DJ Bolgerin freemasonry you have to take oaths. I don't wanna speak for you guys, but my understanding is that's the case. And I wanna read a bible verse from James five twelve which says, above all my brothers and sisters, do not swear not by heaven or earth or anything else. All you need to say is a simple yes

1:06:02DJ Bolgeror no.

1:06:03DJ BolgerOtherwise, you will be condemned.

1:06:05DJ BolgerNow, I'll just take it over to the Masons here. Either of you guys can pick this up. But

1:06:10DJ Bolgerhow do you interpret that verse and also take odes in

1:06:14DJ Bolgeron your journey

1:06:16DJ Bolgerascent in freemasonry?

1:06:18DJ BolgerGo ahead, Ryan.

1:06:19Ryan TerbibullYeah. So my interpretation

1:06:21Ryan Terbibulldoesn't come from freemasonry,

1:06:23Ryan Terbibullthat's just what I was taught that verse meant and what I tend to agree with what that verse meant. I'd be interested to hear Orthodoxy's

1:06:30Ryan Terbibulltake on that verse.

1:06:32Ryan TerbibullBut it's

1:06:34Ryan Terbibulland and there's an allusion

1:06:36Ryan Terbibullthere to

1:06:38Ryan Terbibullalso what Jesus says something similar with let your

1:06:41Ryan Terbibullyes be a yes, sermon on mount. Yes. So my

1:06:46Ryan Terbibullunderstanding is that this is in reference to

1:06:49Ryan Terbibullfrivolous

1:06:50Ryan Terbibullmalicious oath taking

1:06:52Ryan Terbibullin the context of like, know, if I owe Chase money

1:06:56Ryan Terbibulland I say, hey man, I swear to God I'm gonna pay you back on Friday. You know, you're invoking the name of God in a frivolous fashion

1:07:04Ryan Terbibullin order to sometimes deceive or manipulate.

1:07:08Ryan TerbibullIt's not

1:07:10Ryan Terbibullincompatible

1:07:11Ryan Terbibullwith a serious or solemn oath of the vows that I took to my wife when we were married.

1:07:17Ryan TerbibullThat's an oath that I take seriously.

1:07:19Ryan TerbibullI don't think that James is speaking or Jesus is speaking against those types of oaths. We see those types of oaths

1:07:26Ryan Terbibullin the military, we see them in oaths of office.

1:07:31Ryan TerbibullYou even see it in the bible in Hebrews.

1:07:34Ryan TerbibullI believe it's chapter seven,

1:07:37Ryan Terbibulltalking about the priest class of Melchizedek.

1:07:40Ryan TerbibullAnd it says in order to be, I'm paraphrasing obviously, I can get the real quote, but that in order to be one of these priests of the of Melchizedek,

1:07:48Ryan Terbibullyou have to take this oath.

1:07:50Ryan TerbibullAnd that there are others who did not take that oath. So I don't I don't I'm not viewed that verse as being anti oath.

1:07:58Ryan TerbibullIt's anti frivolous, malicious,

1:08:01Ryan Terbibullmisleading

1:08:02DJ Bolgeroaths. Before we open it up for open discussion, just a quick clarifying question is,

1:08:08DJ Bolgerwhat is the principle by which an oath goes too far in the form of James five twelve?

1:08:15Chase GeyserIt's like if you were

1:08:16Jay Dyerto say, swear to God I'll

1:08:17Chase Geyserbe there tomorrow on time.

1:08:18DJ BolgerThat's a good example. But do you have like a prince so what is the like

1:08:22DJ Bolgersorting principle for the two things, you know? Where it's good or bad? Is there a line in the sand or is it just kind of a?

1:08:28Chase GeyserWell, think Yeah. It's a good question. I I haven't really thought about how to define it explicitly, but I would say that when we get married for example, our marriage vows are oaths that are totally compatible with Christianity. So that's an example of an oath that's acceptable. Right? And then there's ones that are obviously frivolous, and I I think what the point was with Jesus saying, let your yes be yes and let your no be no, is just be such an honest person that all you have to do is say yes or no.

1:08:56Jay DyerYeah. Actually, I agree with all that. I don't take any issue with any of that. I would say that,

1:09:00Jay Dyeryou know, obviously we take oaths.

1:09:03Jay DyerIf we go to court, you lay your hand on the bible and you take an oath. There's no problem with that. I don't think we've ever had a problem with that. We take an oath in marriage as they pointed out.

1:09:13Jay DyerBut I would say that the

1:09:16Jay Dyerblood oaths that are required for masonry

1:09:19Jay Dyermight be problematic. What do

1:09:20Chase Geyseryou mean by blood oath?

1:09:22Chase GeyserLike the blood oath spills?

1:09:23Jay DyerYour oaths mean?

1:09:24Chase GeyserI'm

1:09:24Jay Dyersorry? Need know what your oaths mean.

1:09:26Chase GeyserWell,

1:09:28Chase Geyserwhen I hear blood oaths, I think of, and maybe I'm just totally wrong about this, so please clarify. I think of like, somebody actually cutting their hand open and there's blood involved in the oath.

1:09:37Jay DyerI mean, don't you take an oath to have your throats lit should blah blah blah blah blah happen.

1:09:43Ryan TerbibullSo there's penalties in these obligations.

1:09:47Ryan TerbibullWe won't discuss the specifics

1:09:49Ryan Terbibullof those obligations.

1:09:52Ryan TerbibullYeah. You can laugh at that, you know.

1:09:56Ryan TerbibullYou can you can go find them online if you want, you know.

1:09:58Jay DyerWell, if you can find them online why can't you explain?

1:10:00Ryan TerbibullAnd I would and I would well, I'll I'll explain.

1:10:03Ryan TerbibullI will simply say that if you believe those are literal

1:10:07Ryan Terbibulloaths

1:10:08Jay DyerMaybe maybe

1:10:10Jay Dyeryou interpret it as symbolic. That's why I said, depending upon how one interprets those oaths. Now, I know that there have been cases like the William Morgan affair where it was not interpreted as purely symbolic. Maybe you guys nowadays don't hold to that, so I don't wanna be unfair to you, a wood steel man your position.

1:10:26Jay DyerBut I mean like,

1:10:29Jay Dyeryou know, in your in your rights for example, and you can correct me if this is wrong, in the royal arch degree

1:10:34Jay Dyeryou reveal that the true name of God is Jabalon,

1:10:38Jay DyerYahweh, Baal, and An, so that's in your liturgies,

1:10:42Jay Dyerthat's your rites and your rituals, that's not your theologians or your speculators here. I don't see how that any christian would literally think that the name of God is Jabalon, and then say that this is not a theological society and I can interpret this however I want. That just doesn't make any sense.

1:10:57Chase GeyserI would argue that freemasonry never makes a claim as to what the the real name, true name of God is.

1:11:02Jay DyerI mean, is that part of

1:11:02Chase Geyserthe Royal Arch degree? I don't believe so.

1:11:05Jay DyerAnd the York Rite capitular side doesn't have the name Jabulon?

1:11:08Chase GeyserI I do not believe that Freemasonry claims

1:11:11Chase Geyserto to to define the name of God explicitly.

1:11:15Chase GeyserCorrect?

1:11:16Jay DyerSo that you're saying that that is not part of the Royal Arch degree in the York Rite's capitular side?

1:11:21Chase GeyserIt's been a long time since I've seen that degree, but yes, that is what I'm saying.

1:11:25Jay DyerAlright. So everybody note this because he's making a claim that I think he's I don't have the whole liturgy in front of me of their rites, I don't think that that's that that's true. But

1:11:35Jay Dyerwhen you go in the lodge and I see for example that there's the floor, and that there's the Jacob and Boaz,

1:11:41Jay Dyerand all this temple symbolism.

1:11:43Jay DyerHow is all of this old testament temple stuff not religious?

1:11:49Ryan TerbibullWhat's what's what's your definition of religious?

1:11:52Jay DyerWell, you told me and you said that it's not a religion, it's a philosophy. Yet when I walk into a lodge, it's a celestial

1:11:58Jay Dyervision into the the heavens and the stars, and there's Jacob and Boaz, which is out of the Old Testament, it's the temple. We just, by the way, toured the

1:12:06Chase GeyserI see what you're saying, Jay. There there are certainly elements of Freemasonry that are derived from religion. Specifically

1:12:13Chase GeyserKing Solomon, Sample, Jacob, Boaz, all that stuff, yes.

1:12:16Chase GeyserBut it's not

1:12:17Jay Dyera religion, it's a philosophy.

1:12:18Ryan TerbibullCorrect. These are symbols.

1:12:21Ryan TerbibullThe entire

1:12:22Ryan Terbibullname Freemasons

1:12:23Ryan Terbibullcomes from stonemason guilds.

1:12:26Ryan TerbibullWe use the tools

1:12:28Ryan Terbibullof masons,

1:12:30Ryan TerbibullWe use the story of the building of king Solomon's temple

1:12:34Ryan Terbibullto teach certain moral and philosophical principles.

1:12:38Ryan TerbibullYou know, just because we have a

1:12:40Ryan Terbibullstory

1:12:41Ryan Terbibullout of the old testament or

1:12:44Ryan Terbibullthe pillars that were outside of

1:12:47Jay DyerI mean, just a story or is every element of the lodge in some way symbolic of metaphysical realities like the tile floor and the dualities in nature and Jacob and Boaz, the two pillars from the temple. Is it not, for example, based on Kabbalah?

1:13:00Ryan TerbibullIt has elements of Kabbalah Okay. In some some

1:13:03Ryan TerbibullRight. Parts of masonry.

1:13:04Jay DyerSo again, the ambiguity in the term, it's just a philosophy not a religion is ambiguous precisely because you can elastically

1:13:12Jay Dyerremove

1:13:13Jay Dyerhow far you wanna make religion and theology when again, I think this whole discussion has shown that there's all kinds of theological positions and principles replete throughout, not just the

1:13:24Chase Geysertheological

1:13:25Chase Geyserpositions and principles are are

1:13:28Chase Geyserbrought forth, but for the sake of contemplation, not so much as for the sake of making a claim as to their

1:13:33Ryan TerbibullYeah. We don't I'm not a kabbalist just because there's elements elements.

1:13:37Jay DyerYeah. But the point is not are you a kabbalist? The point is that it's not just a philosophy, it's replete with theological meaning.

1:13:44Ryan TerbibullDo you think their religions contain philosophy?

1:13:48Jay DyerYeah. But that's not the question. The question is, is free mason just a philosophy?

1:13:51Ryan TerbibullIf they do contain philosophy, we can't pull those

1:13:55Ryan Terbibullfallacy because it's

1:13:56Jay Dyera parts whole fallacy. I'm arguing against your position that you said it's just a philosophy. I didn't claim that there's no overlap between religion and philosophy. You said it's just a philosophy.

1:14:06Ryan TerbibullYeah. And I said that we pull those philosophies from different religions.

1:14:10Jay DyerSo it's But then it's not even philosophy, it's also a religious group.

1:14:15Chase GeyserNo.

1:14:16Chase GeyserHow

1:14:17Jay Dyeris it not?

1:14:18Chase GeyserI don't understand how it is religious just because certain elements of freemasonry are You're litur Freemasonry

1:14:25Chase Geyserhas The

1:14:25Jay Dyerrituals include give the name of God in secret

1:14:28Jay Dyertetragrammaton.

1:14:29Jay DyerIt's obviously religious. What are you talking about?

1:14:32Jay DyerAnd then you're casting it as, oh, it's not religious. It's just a a bunch of bros and we're whatever. Like, no. You're actually doing religious based rituals.

1:14:40Chase GeyserI think that you can have you can have

1:14:44Chase Geyserceremonies,

1:14:44Chase Geyserrituals, initiations, whatever you want to call them that have

1:14:48Chase Geyserelements derived from religions

1:14:50Chase Geyserwithout making any explicit explicit religious claims.

1:14:54Jay DyerBut you already made a bunch of explicit religious claims in the first hour. Just that God exists? No. And then you qualified it to say it's not just God exists actually, in fact. That was the point.

1:15:06Jay DyerI'm not following. Okay. Yeah you are. You just don't wanna Wait. I I have

1:15:09DJ BolgerSo a question it's the

1:15:11DJ Bolgerthe temple part aside, if I'm not sure exactly what you're referencing about the Jabalon thing. If there's an explicit claim on

1:15:19DJ BolgerGod itself,

1:15:21DJ Bolgerwhich is it seems like that's what Jay insinuating, that does seem like that would be in violation of some pretty core Christian principles.

1:15:27DJ BolgerWhat what is the

1:15:28DJ BolgerOkay. Actually can you just flesh out what that is and have them Alright.

1:15:31Jay DyerSo I'm trying to find their actual older.

1:15:33DJ BolgerDid you know this reference? What is Jabulon?

1:15:36Jay DyerI'm not familiar with

1:15:38Jay Dyereither. So it's the older royal arch

1:15:41Jay Dyermasonry rituals,

1:15:43Jay Dyerwhich include the term

1:15:45Jay DyerJabulon,

1:15:46Jay Dyerwhich is supposedly the lost sacred name of God.

1:15:50Jay DyerAnd by the way, it's it's not just some internet side, I mean it's also,

1:15:54Jay DyerI mean the name of God is a huge issue that Albert Mackie as an example, not an authority as an example says,

1:16:02Jay Dyerthat

1:16:04Jay Dyerfinding out who the name of God is and what the name of God is, he says,

1:16:08Jay Dyeris very important to masons because

1:16:10Jay Dyerit must be determined through a kabbalistic

1:16:14Jay DyerZohar based interpretation.

1:16:16Jay DyerAnd he says, if you wanna know where to look at this, he says look to the Talmud and the Zohar.

1:16:21Jay DyerSo again, the Tetragrammaton

1:16:23Jay Dyeris according to him,

1:16:25Jay Dyerthe male and female principles of nature, the generative and prolific energies

1:16:31Jay Dyerof creation.

1:16:32Jay DyerSo

1:16:33Jay Dyerthis is all metaphysical theological speculation,

1:16:36Jay Dyerand then they're saying that no, it's just a philosophy, it's just these symbols, and you can maybe craft it into whatever you want. Where do you get the idea that you can take all the symbols of Solomon's temple and craft them into anything that you want? To me that's preposterous.

1:16:51Ryan TerbibullI don't think we're crafting them into anything that we want. We're very specific on what those symbols

1:16:56Chase Geysermean to us.

1:16:57Jay DyerI thought you said that I can if I'm a Hindu Let me just Let me provide some If I'm a Hindu and I'm a Jay, let me make

1:17:02Chase Geysersome context. You know, if you look at masonry throughout history, there was operative masonry and then it became speculative. Mhmm. I think that the reason King Solomon's temple

1:17:12Chase Geyseris is such like a a landmark for lack of a better term in Freemasonry is because it's like one of the most famous historical examples

1:17:20Chase Geyserof architecture and the principles of masonry being applied

1:17:24Chase Geyserfrom an operative standpoint. And so I think when the craft was crafted, crafted,

1:17:28Chase Geyserit was used as like a setting and a frame of reference and a keystone to develop the symbolic philosophy

1:17:34Chase Geyserof the fraternity.

1:17:37Jay DyerYeah. But you keep saying philosophy to make it not religious and theological.

1:17:43Jay DyerWhen all of this is religious, theological, and then you're removing the context and saying, well they're just really personal symbols. For example, all masonry says that it is the job of masonry as far as I'm aware, to quote rebuild the Temple Of Solomon and you guys debate what's not true?

1:17:58Ryan TerbibullNo. I've never heard that.

1:18:00Jay DyerNever heard that before? Correct.

1:18:01Ryan TerbibullIt is the job say it again.

1:18:04Jay DyerIt is the goal and the job of masonry to rebuild the Temple Of Solomon.

1:18:08Chase GeyserNo. I disagree with that.

1:18:09Jay DyerOkay. So we just went to the

1:18:11Jay DyerGiant Masonic Monument in DC.

1:18:14Jay DyerI put this up and you can find this very easily.

1:18:17Jay DyerAnd by the way, most of these masonic authors that I have here all say that the job of the Mason is to rebuild the

1:18:22Jay DyerTemple Of Solomon. You got that quote?

1:18:25Jay DyerYeah. Yeah.

1:18:27Jay DyerSo

1:18:30Jay Dyerwhen we went to the Alexandria Monument,

1:18:33Jay Dyerwe got a we got a walkthrough

1:18:36Jay Dyerfrom

1:18:39Jay Dyerthe historian at the Alexandria Monument.

1:18:43Jay DyerAnd Jamie you were there, did the guy not say that it's the job of the Mason to rebuild the Temple Of Solomon?

1:18:50Jay DyerThank you.

1:18:51Jay DyerCause that is what he said. Now you could disagree with that, perhaps that's something that individual masons say and that it's not actually

1:18:58Jay Dyera normative teaching.

1:19:00Ryan TerbibullSo so you think it is a goal or job of masonry to physically

1:19:06Ryan Terbibullrebuild? No. But that's

1:19:08Ryan Terbibullwhat I'm asking.

1:19:09Jay DyerNo. You believe that that is unknown in its turn. You may believe that that is unknown in terms of what it signifies,

1:19:18Jay Dyerbut that

1:19:19Jay Dyerspiritually and morally it's crafting the temple of the individual Mason to be a better person. That's that was what it was explained to us at the temple. Now, you disagree with that? I've never

1:19:28Ryan Terbibullheard that framed as rebuilding the temple. Now,

1:19:35Ryan Terbibullthe act of improving yourself,

1:19:38Ryan Terbibullwe do take the symbolism of temple building,

1:19:42Ryan Terbibullphysical freemasonry

1:19:43Ryan Terbibulland

1:19:46Ryan Terbibullthen we use those same working tools on building ourselves.

1:19:50Ryan TerbibullWe're not building physical temples anymore, we're building ourselves. Yes. I know we're not rebuilding

1:19:55Jay DyerOkay. So that's playing in war games. So Obviously, I'm not saying that you think you're gonna go literally rebuild the Temple Of Solomon. You're saying that the

1:20:03Ryan TerbibullWell, kinda made that claim in some, not tonight, but in previous argue.

1:20:07Jay DyerNo. I argue that maybe that is what

1:20:08Ryan Terbibullyou

1:20:09Ryan Terbibulllike, acted like there were some Zionist organization that wants to rebuild the third temple. That was your claim that you've made in previous steps. I mean, you may You're alluding to it now.

1:20:19Jay DyerBut Free masonry is bound up with Judaism. You don't you don't think so?

1:20:23Ryan TerbibullIt has Judaism in it. Bound another to summoning up with Judaism. Mean, he's just going to fill the

1:20:28Chase Geyserlaw but not abolish it.

1:20:29Jay DyerYeah. No. Christianity is not bound up with Judaism. That's false.

1:20:32Ryan TerbibullI didn't we didn't make that claim. You're saying to it,

1:20:35Ryan Terbibullso

1:20:37Ryan Terbibullis Christianity. It's I'm

1:20:39Ryan Terbibullsaying that just because something contains Judaism does not make it Judaism. What I'm saying is

1:20:44Jay Dyerthat you guys, through people like Mackie say, go read the Zohar and the Talmud, and that's where you're gonna get the secrets of who God is. That's rabbinic theology that is not ancient.

1:20:53Chase GeyserI would certainly disagree with Mackie in that

1:20:56Ryan TerbibullYeah.

1:20:56Jay DyerIn that writing. What do you agree with disagree with Albert Pike too when he says the similar similar things?

1:21:00Chase GeyserYeah. Okay. I do.

1:21:01Jay DyerAnd you disagree with Harvard scholars like William Green who write books about Masonry's ethos being Jewish Kabbalah?

1:21:07Chase GeyserYes, I do. Okay.

1:21:08Jay DyerCool.

1:21:09Jay DyerSo notice that

1:21:11Jay Dyerit really is seemingly a thing that you can make it into whatever you want it to be, because when we bring up the actual Judaic ethos of it, and you don't find the emphasis on Christianity except perhaps in later versions of the York Rite,

1:21:24Jay DyerMasonry downplays the deity of Christ and it downplays

1:21:27Jay Dyerthe specifics of Christianity, which you saw Chase do when he asked me if I was a dogmatist and I only believe the orthodoxy was true. They downplayed the specifics and the absolutes, as Albert Pike says, because their whole society is based around syncretism and the idea that all the religions are just mass of one ultimate God, but you can also be a Christian. But that's again like joining together with ecumenists or free masons. Those positions are antithetical to the absolutes of Christianity. So when Chase says that he believes in Jesus,

1:21:55Jay Dyerwhat Jesus? The historical Jesus that the church teaches or the Jesus that you've decided in the Protestant bible?

1:22:01Chase GeyserThe real one. The son of God. The Messiah. Is he the one that the council of Nicaea

1:22:07Chase Geyserdefines?

1:22:08Chase GeyserHe's the one that died on the cross

1:22:10Jay Dyerand rose again. Okay. But what historical body actually preserved those teachings and put together that bible?

1:22:15Chase GeyserMatthew, Mark, Luke, and John,

1:22:17Jay Dyerthe the yeah. They put the bible together?

1:22:19Chase GeyserNo. I I don't understand that they didn't put the whole bible together. Who did?

1:22:23Chase GeyserWell, was Constantine.

1:22:24Chase GeyserRight? No.

1:22:27Chase GeyserNicene

1:22:28Chase Geysercouncil?

1:22:28Jay DyerNo. Didn't put the bible together.

1:22:30Chase GeyserI'm sorry?

1:22:30Jay DyerNo. He did not put the bible together.

1:22:32Chase GeyserDidn't did he not commission everybody to come together and identify what's canon and what isn't? No. Okay. Forgive me. Tell me.

1:22:41Jay DyerI'm I'm Educate I mean you guys believe the bible, right? Like,

1:22:45Jay Dyerwhat kind of Christianity is it that the bible teaches?

1:22:49Jay DyerThat is your definition of what Christianity is that Masonry is compatible with?

1:22:53Ryan TerbibullWell, Masonry is compatible with

1:22:57Ryan TerbibullAgain,

1:22:59Ryan TerbibullMasonry is not making

1:23:01Ryan Terbibulldogmatic claims about

1:23:03Ryan TerbibullChristianity.

1:23:04Jay DyerBut it is. And we've seen that in this debate.

1:23:07Chase GeyserWhat do you mean?

1:23:08Chase GeyserWhat do I mean? Yeah. When when does masonry make dogmatic claims about Jesus Christ or Christianity?

1:23:14Jay DyerWell, the belief that you can

1:23:17Jay Dyerbe a member of the society just by believing in a generic theism is antithetical to Jesus in John fourteen six, that I'm the way, truth and the life.

1:23:26Ryan TerbibullSo you say generic theism, what what do you mean?

1:23:29Chase GeyserYours that I leave it

1:23:30Jay Dyeras a being being normalsonic cubes saying that there's just a supreme being.

1:23:34Jay DyerOkay. That's not How do we identify what the supreme being is?

1:23:37Chase GeyserThat's really not an ultimatum. The point where he doesn't involve itself.

1:23:40Ryan TerbibullDoes that? It'll it'll lead all of them to the individual.

1:23:43Jay DyerExactly. That's the point. That that's antithetical to the way that Christianity defines who God is. That's the point.

1:23:50Chase GeyserThe anathema makes no claims

1:23:53Chase Geyseris

1:23:53Chase Geyserthe point.

1:23:54Ryan TerbibullIt would be antithetical if Masonry said that all religions are equal, they all teach the same thing, that they my belief in Christianity that you know, I worship the same God as the Muslim. That would be a generic theism that

1:24:06Jay DyerYou do believe not to worship the same God as a Muslim. I don't. Yes, you do.

1:24:09Ryan TerbibullNo, I

1:24:10Jay Dyerdon't. Yes. Muslim, your society, your Mason society accepts

1:24:15Jay DyerMuslims as monotheists and part of your society.

1:24:19Jay DyerYou believe that you could be a Christian and your theology doesn't play into the masonic order and its teachings and that's why it's double minded and double fake. That's the point.

1:24:28Ryan TerbibullI think it's just a gross misunderstanding of

1:24:30Jay DyerDoes masonry teach that Muslims worship the same God?

1:24:33Ryan TerbibullMasonry doesn't make a claim. Doesn't make a claim with that. It just says that Muslims are

1:24:36Jay DyerIf it allows Muslims and it's it's it's acquiescing to that.

1:24:40Chase GeyserThat's not necessarily true.

1:24:41Jay DyerYou nongered all the wire set up. We said a supreme being. Is it the same supreme being?

1:24:45Ryan TerbibullYeah. I understand. No. We don't we don't make claim that you have that it is all the same supreme being.

1:24:51Chase GeyserCorrect. No. Correct. We do not make the claim that that everybody

1:24:54Chase Geyserevery every religion

1:24:56Chase Geysersupreme being is the true.

1:24:58Jay DyerOkay. Whichever one is a Muslim. Does a Muslim worship the saints?

1:25:01Ryan TerbibullEssentially a Muslim. Muslim membership.

1:25:04Chase GeyserI do not believe that a Muslim worship. I'm not asking

1:25:06Jay DyerDoes masonry

1:25:08Jay Dyersay and allow for Muslims to become members?

1:25:11Chase GeyserYes. But allowing is Making allowing is different from making a claim as to the the authenticity or

1:25:17Jay Dyerthe

1:25:17Chase Geyserthe truth.

1:25:18Jay DyerIf they're allowing it, it would be on the basis of

1:25:20Chase Geyserthe fact that they No. That's false. The only reason that Freemasonry requires a belief in a supreme being is so that when you take your oaths, there's reason to believe that you feel that you're held accountable to your supreme being. So we're not gonna try to convince a

1:25:33Chase GeyserMuslim to

1:25:35Chase Geyserswear an oath to a God that he doesn't believe in because we understand that he won't feel held accountable

1:25:40Chase Geyserto the to to to keep the oath. So the idea is, look, if you believe

1:25:45Chase Geyserif you believe in God and in Jesus Christ, and you're a Christian, and you take an oath on a bible instead of whatever your holy book is, and that's because you believe that you'll be held accountable for the oath that you swear to your own God.

1:25:56Chase GeyserIf It's an accountability that I accept.

1:25:59Jay DyerIf I believe that I am God and I am the supreme being, can I become a Mason?

1:26:03Chase GeyserI've never even been presented with that question.

1:26:05Jay DyerDoesn't matter, it's a theoretical

1:26:07Jay Dyerquestion that's proving a point about an argument. I'm not actually saying that.

1:26:10Chase GeyserIf somebody believes that they are God

1:26:12DJ BolgerI I he would not get in

1:26:14Jay Dyerthe list. There's no way that we get in.

1:26:16Jay DyerWhat?

1:26:17Chase GeyserThey wouldn't be accepted.

1:26:18DJ BolgerThey would not? No. No. I mean Okay.

1:26:20Chase GeyserI don't know if it's technically against the rules, but there would never be an instance in which that person would be living into a lie.

1:26:25Ryan TerbibullSupreme being to him all men are accountable if or I don't know. You accountable to yourself? Yeah. Because you are the supreme being, I

1:26:32Jay Dyerdon't know.

1:26:32Chase GeyserMan, you can't be insane.

1:26:34Ryan TerbibullWell, yeah, beyond the I get it. Don't like crazy people and or try, you know.

1:26:37Jay DyerI'm illustrating a point that every time you appeal to supreme being, it is sufficiently vague and generic hence generic theism

1:26:45Jay Dyerto allow for anything it appears,

1:26:48Jay Dyerbut then as we nail it down, it gets hyper specified and qualified about all of the things that don't count and all the things that do count, which demonstrates the point that you have a theology and a dogma,

1:27:02Jay Dyerand you're not consistent with the other claims that you've made. That's the point. So how is it compatible

1:27:08Jay Dyerwith Christianity

1:27:09Jay Dyerto be in a lodge

1:27:11Jay Dyertogether

1:27:12Jay Dyerwith totally different

1:27:14Jay Dyerdemonic positions like

1:27:15Chase GeyserBecause it's a secular organization. It's not a religious How is

1:27:18Jay Dyerit secular when you've adopted all of these religious symbols and imagery?

1:27:22Chase GeyserJust because you're presenting people with religious ideas

1:27:25Chase Geyserand different ancient mysteries or whatever, doesn't mean that you're actually advocating the belief in them.

1:27:30Jay DyerNow you're now you're dishonest because you said it's secular,

1:27:33Jay Dyerat the same time as saying that there are theological requirements to get in.

1:27:36DJ BolgerI mean,

1:27:36Chase Geyserso it's not secular. Go to University of California and you engage in religious studies, it's still a secular program, even

1:27:41Jay Dyerthough you're

1:27:42Jay Dyerto believe in God, quote unquote, to get into the program. You require belief in God, and then you have a generic God. It doesn't that's a contradiction.

1:27:51Chase GeyserHow is it not theological?

1:27:53Chase GeyserBecause the only reason that

1:27:55Chase Geyserbasically requires a belief in God is is for the sake of knowing that we can trust the oaths that the people take because they feel held accountable to their higher power.

1:28:04Ryan TerbibullI I would also

1:28:05Jay DyerThen why does it why can't I be accountable to myself as God?

1:28:09Ryan TerbibullI would also argue that beyond what Chase said, and not disagreeing with that, but just in addition to that.

1:28:17Ryan TerbibullThe teachings, the principles,

1:28:19Ryan Terbibullnot a theology.

1:28:21Ryan TerbibullJust I don't know how else to say it. Did you do you believe that there are teachings and doctrines that are are not theology?

1:28:28Jay DyerLike

1:28:29Jay DyerAre you serious?

1:28:31Jay DyerRight now, are you serious?

1:28:32Ryan TerbibullYeah. Go for it. Go for it.

1:28:35Jay DyerOkay. So

1:28:37Jay Dyeryou made a bunch of theological claims.

1:28:40Ryan TerbibullOkay. What what what are the bunch of theological claims that

1:28:43Jay Dyerwe You can't be in the society if you believe

1:28:45Ryan Terbibullthis this this and this about God. Ship requirements?

1:28:48Jay DyerYou can't be in the society if you believe this this this about the deity in question.

1:28:52Jay DyerThose are theological claims and assertions.

1:28:55Chase GeyserOkay.

1:28:55Jay DyerSo you have a vast theology.

1:28:57Jay DyerDo you not understand this? This is a very simple are you serious?

1:29:01Chase GeyserNo. I don't.

1:29:02Ryan TerbibullNot when you put the word vast in

1:29:03Jay DyerDid you not give me a whole bunch of people that wouldn't count such as a satanist, and such as myself, Leon God, or something like that. You said those theologies don't count.

1:29:12Chase GeyserI would say that those people wouldn't get into a lodge.

1:29:15Jay DyerYeah. Thank you. So you have theological

1:29:18Jay Dyerrequirements.

1:29:20Jay DyerIs the

1:29:21DJ Bolgerpoint that it's a like a vote by the people and they would always vote that out or that there's a specific Correct.

1:29:27Ryan TerbibullIn their violating. No.

1:29:28Chase GeyserThis is never gonna be accepted into a regular

1:29:31Ryan TerbibullIt's it's it's an it's by its nature an exclusive organization.

1:29:35Ryan TerbibullAnd whether it's a written rule or not, I'm not gonna let a guy in that thinks he's God.

1:29:41Jay DyerThank you. So that proves my point that you have theological

1:29:45Jay Dyerdogmatic positions

1:29:46Jay Dyerwhen you say that there's only one dogma, that's not actually the case. There are all these theological necessities

1:29:53Jay Dyerthat you have that exclude

1:29:55Jay Dyerall of these other types of positions.

1:29:57Jay DyerThat's the point. So it's not just a fraternity. It's not like a graduate program or like AA.

1:30:04Jay DyerThat's the point.

1:30:06Chase GeyserWell, I I see what you're trying to say. I would just argue that I think there's a difference and we should I think we should define this difference between official

1:30:14Chase Geyserwritten requirements

1:30:16Chase Geyserof what it means to be a part of an organization,

1:30:18Chase Geyserand then the culture that is created as a conglomeration

1:30:22Chase Geyseror a combination of the people who are actually a part of that organization.

1:30:26Jay DyerWhat does that have

1:30:27Chase Geyserdo with what is written as

1:30:27DJ BolgerSo what I'm trying to

1:30:28Chase Geysersay is what I'm trying to say is Masonry that may not officially make a claim

1:30:33Chase Geyserregarding

1:30:34Chase Geyserthe theological

1:30:35Chase Geysertruth of of satanism,

1:30:38Chase Geyserbut because of the composition of the organization,

1:30:40Chase Geyserit's impossible that a satanist would

1:30:42Jay Dyerever get in. Because then you're making a theological claim about who is and isn't allowed.

1:30:46Chase GeyserWell, certainly whenever you vote on whether or not you can admit somebody into a lodge,

1:30:50Chase Geyseryou're making a decision based off whatever arbitrary sentiments or feelings that you have as an individual member.

1:30:55Jay DyerYou a dogma that a specific type of theology.

1:30:58Chase GeyserIt doesn't even have to necessarily be based on the dogma of freemasonry. I could just blackball somebody because I don't like them.

1:31:03Jay DyerOkay. That's an even better argument for my case, because now you're admitting that it's not just the theology, it's also the practical concerns that allow you to to reject people.

1:31:11Chase GeyserSo Yeah. That's not that is not helping my argument.

1:31:13Ryan TerbibullI'm not

1:31:13Chase Geysermaking the decision to blackball somebody based off of the official position of the fraternity. I'm making the position of the the decision to blackball somebody based off of just personal preference.

1:31:22Jay DyerBut it's still a theological personal preference, so that just argues in favor of what I'm arguing.

1:31:26Chase GeyserNot even necessarily. I could totally agree with somebody's theology, but if I dislike them, I can just blackball them. If somebody's a satanist, like they're they're satanist.

1:31:33Jay DyerThen it would just be irrelevant to the question of whether free masonry has theological requirements for membership.

1:31:40Chase GeyserThe only theological requirement for membership is that you believe in a supreme being.

1:31:44Jay DyerThat is not true, which we have seen in the first hour when you explicate that you can't be a satanist, you can't believe you're your own God, and a host of other things that would exclude you.

1:31:52Chase GeyserAlways so That's

1:31:54Chase Geyserall we said was that you would never get in.

1:31:56Chase GeyserI mean, you could technically be a satanist and a congressman, they probably half of them are, but nobody would actually vote for You you have to sit out outwardly spoken satanist to be a congressman.

1:32:05Jay DyerAre you guys just like, I don't under like, you have theological

1:32:09Jay Dyerrequirements that exclude you,

1:32:12Jay Dyerthus, you have dogmatic things that you hold to. This is a very

1:32:16Chase Geyserlike

1:32:17Chase Geyserthe the the explicit requirement is a belief in a supreme being. The practical requirements are complicated and it depends on whichever lodge you're trying to join. I mean, if you if the guys in the lodge don't like you, you're not gonna get in. It's irrelevant. No. I I don't I don't I don't think it's irrelevant.

1:32:29Jay DyerIt's a You said a specific theological requirement of a supreme being, and then I ask you, who is that? What is that? What's the things that exclude me from that? And you list all of these things.

1:32:38Chase GeyserYeah. Right. You listed all those based off of the preference of any lodge. There's no way in the culture of free missionary

1:32:43Chase Geyserthat that a satanist would get accepted in any lodge. Regardless of whether or not they technically would be allowed. Just as there's no way that a satanist would be voted in the congress, regardless of the fact that they're technically allowed to be a satanist in congress.

1:32:56Jay DyerYou changed

1:32:57Jay Dyerwhat the requirement was to your personal statements and ideas about what whether you want a Mason or whether you want a satanist in the lodge. When the question was, do you have requirements about a type of supreme being?

1:33:09Chase GeyserAnd you do. We don't.

1:33:11Chase GeyserWe don't specifically have requirements. You

1:33:13Jay Dyerdo because you said a you said the theology of a satanist is incompatible with the theology of masonry.

1:33:19Chase GeyserThat's certainly my personal belief.

1:33:21Chase GeyserBut Dude. I didn't say the theology of freemasonry, I said the principles and values of Freemasonry, not the theology

1:33:26Jay Dyerof So there's nothing antithetical between a satanist and free and a and a Freemason theologically?

1:33:30Chase GeyserI believe that there is something antithetical between a satanist and a freemason philosophically,

1:33:35Chase Geyserand that is my personal belief which I believe It's bit portal. But I was using a theistic satanist.

1:33:39Ryan TerbibullOh, I'm I'm still unaware of these satanists that think that he is the supreme being.

1:33:44Jay DyerTheistic satanists believe that. Okay. It doesn't matter whether like, even if there weren't any, could theoretically propose that as a thing.

1:33:51Ryan TerbibullI imagine you can come up with every hypothetical you want, but.

1:33:54Jay DyerWell, that's why they're useful for debates. So it doesn't matter whether they exist or not. It's how you do debates bro. Yeah. So

1:34:01Jay Dyeragain, the point as I hope you guys see is that when we say exactly what they mean by the supreme being, they have all these qualifications and these criteria, and then Chase shifts it to say, that's my personal ethical reason why I don't want a satanist in here. Shifting away from what the actual question is, which is does masonry have a dogma? They admitted yes, it's just a supreme being. But then we find out in praxis and in reality,

1:34:24Jay Dyerit's not just a supreme being because we don't even know what that is. We're not I mean, again, it's like over and over and over

1:34:30Chase GeyserWell, what

1:34:32Chase Geyserabout having

1:34:33Chase Geysera dogma or specifically having the dogma of a belief in a supreme being is in any way shape or form incompatible with Christianity?

1:34:40Chase GeyserBecause that's one of the dogmas of Christianity too that you must believe in a supreme being.

1:34:44Jay DyerIt's called a word concept fallacy. It's called the quantifier shift fallacy. Let me give you an example really quick.

1:34:50Jay DyerI have one mother, you have one mother, you have one mother. Therefore,

1:34:53Jay Dyerwe all have the same mother. That's a fallacy because just because they're all having one

1:34:59Jay Dyeras their referent, it doesn't mean they're the same. So likewise,

1:35:02Jay Dyerbecause all the religions believe in a god, it doesn't mean it's the same god.

1:35:05Ryan TerbibullYeah. And we don't claim that it is. Right.

1:35:08Chase GeyserBut Freemason I think I think well, I see what you're saying and I and I understand your point. You're right. But Freemasonry does not make a claim as to which supreme being is the real true supreme being. Then That's meant to be ambiguous so that all all faiths could

1:35:22Jay DyerThank you for

1:35:23Jay DyerIt's meant to be ambiguous and then you turn around and you specify who gets in and who doesn't get in based on the theology. That's the whole argument.

1:35:30Chase GeyserNo. I didn't. In fact, they explicitly denied the term theology and what I explicitly stated was that there's no way that a satanist would get into a lodge because in any given lodge, that person would deaf certainly be blackballed by one of the members.

1:35:43Jay DyerDude, do you not understand the argument? I'm not asking you do Masons like satanists. The question is,

1:35:50Jay Dyerthe point is that the argument demonstrates that supreme being is sufficiently vague as to not mean anything

1:35:57Jay Dyerand you're arbitrary when you start to say who doesn't get in because those are theological assertions. That's the argument.

1:36:03Chase Geyser100% agree with you on on on what you just said. I just don't understand the point. Like I I don't see

1:36:08Jay DyerThen you don't have one dogma, and there's no such thing as generic theism. That's the point.

1:36:11Chase GeyserWe don't have a dogma? We don't have one dogma? Is that what you're saying? Yes. Then how is that incompatible

1:36:19Jay Dyerconflict with Christianity?

1:36:22Jay DyerThe point is that you claim to not have a dogma, but you actually have a whole bunch.

1:36:25Chase GeyserThat's So wait, you're saying we have

1:36:27Jay Dyera dogma now? Yeah. That's the it's a contradiction.

1:36:29Chase GeyserYeah. And the dogma is that we require the belief in a supreme being.

1:36:34Jay DyerAnd that is Right?

1:36:35Chase GeyserMore than Christianity requires a belief in a supreme being too. And it's totally compatible with Freemasonry for you to believe that that's supreme. Christianity is the God of Jesus Christ.

1:36:43Jay DyerChristianity's

1:36:44Jay Dyersupreme being is the triune God. Yeah. It is not generic theism that allows a Muslim and a Hindu

1:36:50Chase Geyserto I understand. But nowhere in Freemasonry does it say that the triune God is not the supreme being.

1:36:56Jay DyerYes, it is. Because you just said that you can be a member of the lodge if you believe in all these crazy heretical groups because you recognize a supreme being.

1:37:02Chase GeyserNo. You don't supreme

1:37:03Chase Geyserbeing is legitimate, you recognize that that person believes in that supreme being. Therefore, you can believe that if they take an oath upon the supreme being that they believe in, that they will be held accountable. They will believe that they will be held accountable to that oath. Regardless of whether or not they actually will be held accountable. For example, if I'm a Muslim and I wanna take my oath on a Quran instead of a bible because I'm a Muslim. Right? Freemasonry doesn't claim whether all is God or Yahweh is God or whether Jesus Christ is God. But if you're a Muslim, we want you to take an oath on the books that you believe in because we believe that you believe you'll be held accountable for something that you believe in.

1:37:36Jay DyerI'm not saying you're trying to remove it from what's said, but did you just say free masonry does not believe that Jesus is son of God?

1:37:40Chase GeyserNo. I said it doesn't make claim.

1:37:43Chase GeyserWay, it it doesn't make a claim. All it claims is that you must believe in a supreme being.

1:37:48Jay DyerAnd I'm arguing that the supreme being itself,

1:37:52Jay Dyerthis line of argument that you guys have, is a denial of Jesus and the trinity. That's my argument.

1:37:57Chase GeyserNo. It is. Brian, just like you said that the just like you said that the supreme the blue even higher power

1:38:02Jay DyerBecause what you say about the supreme being and when you flesh it out, contradicts

1:38:07Jay Dyerthe Christian theology of Jesus. There

1:38:10Chase Geyseris no contradiction.

1:38:11Ryan TerbibullBut I believe that Jesus

1:38:13Jay DyerYou the fact that you make it subjective doesn't remove my arguments for us. That has nothing to do with what we're arguing.

1:38:19Chase GeyserI think it No. Because masonry I agree. You guys think Magisterium objectively Entire argument. Masonry objectively does not deny Christ.

1:38:27Chase GeyserIt just objectively doesn't.

1:38:28Jay DyerWhen you allow Like our Alcoholics Anonymous doesn't Your belief in the supreme deity is itself a denial of who Christ is. That's the argument.

1:38:38Chase GeyserYou don't believe in a supreme god?

1:38:40Jay DyerI already showed you the word concept fallacy in the quantifier shift that when you say supreme god, if I believe the supreme god is Satan, you qualify it to prove my point that it's a quantified

1:38:51Chase GeyserI understand. But it's just to require people to believe in a supreme being is not the same thing as acknowledging the authenticity of any specific supreme being.

1:38:59Chase GeyserFreemasonry is not claiming which god is the real god. It's requiring

1:39:04Chase Geyserreading my point. Right. Because it's not a religion. It's a secular Oh, it is.

1:39:08Jay DyerAs we've seen, as you qualify all of these things, it exclude you.

1:39:12Ryan TerbibullSo

1:39:12Chase GeyserYeah. But the way I qualified it was not by the official policies of any Masonic doctrine, or law, or writing. I was not a Christian. I'm just telling you that the culture of the fraternity is never gonna allow somebody like that culture.

1:39:22Jay DyerThat doesn't matter. All I have to do is logically prove that when you say that it's a supreme being,

1:39:27Jay Dyerit is not equivalent to the Christian doctrine of the Trinity and the deity of Christ. It's a it's a quantifier shift fallacy. It's a word concept fallacy because you keep asking me, don't you believe in a supreme being?

1:39:38Jay DyerI don't believe in the supreme being as Masonry's philosophy lays out. Masonry doesn't lay out. It does lay out. You see, every time we talk about it, they explain that Masonry's philosophy allows it to be anything that you paste onto it. That is the argument why it's false.

1:39:53Chase GeyserYes. It it's a it accepts different philosophies and different theology. The idea is the end of the end of the organization. It accepts those but it does not condone or endorse any of them specific.

1:40:01Jay DyerAcceptance of a supreme generic being is itself a rejection of the trinity and the

1:40:07Chase GeyserSo when Christ It's like Solonimus requires you to believe in a higher power but does not specify which higher power you must believe in, it is explicitly denying Christ?

1:40:16Jay DyerIf you're arguing that the supreme being that allows for all of the sects to come together under the masonic banner, yes.

1:40:24Chase GeyserNo. But there is no personification

1:40:26Chase Geyserof a specific God in Freemasonry. There's just the requirement that you believe in the supreme being.

1:40:32Jay DyerThe require Even you say believe in the supreme being, you are attaching predicates that specify certain types of things. And then when you explain what that is, you say that it can't be theistic satanism and it can't be me being God. So you refute yourself when you explain the terms.

1:40:48Jay DyerI disagree. Because

1:40:49Chase Geyserthe refutation But

1:40:50Jay Dyeryou're showing me that's wrong.

1:40:51Chase GeyserThe refutation of of a satanist getting into a lodge is not a matter of policy, it's a matter of practical

1:40:56Chase Geyseroutcome.

1:40:56Jay DyerThat's irrelevant to the way that you theologically describe the supreme Still

1:41:03Ryan Terbibullhaving a base set of requirements

1:41:06Ryan Terbibullor foundational beliefs

1:41:08Ryan Terbibullis not the same as us being a religion or making the claim that all religions are equal, that we're all worshiping the same God.

1:41:14Jay DyerI didn't argue that. I just simply argued that the claim that you allow for and and require a belief in a higher power that is a supreme being is itself already a rejection of the trinity and the deity of Christ. That's the argument. Now, you can say we don't require a specific belief. None of that addresses the argument that I'm making. Do you not understand?

1:41:36Chase GeyserNo. I think I understand. I just just I just fundamentally disagree.

1:41:39Jay DyerOkay. And how is it wrong?

1:41:41Chase GeyserBecause I think that requiring

1:41:43Chase Geysersomeone to believe in a supreme green supreme being in order to be a member of an organization is explicitly denying any specific

1:41:49Ryan Terbibullthere's nothing

1:41:50Ryan TerbibullYou denied that it's the theistic satanist being.

1:41:52Jay DyerThere's So that's why you're wrong.

1:41:54Ryan TerbibullThere's no conunda I've ever experienced or been required

1:41:58Ryan Terbibullin Masonry

1:41:59Ryan Terbibullthat has alluded to or required me to somehow

1:42:05Ryan Terbibullnot

1:42:06Ryan Terbibullhave a belief in a trinity. Not have a belief in Jesus.

1:42:09Jay DyerThe fact that

1:42:10Ryan Terbibullthese are my

1:42:11Ryan Terbibullindividual personal beliefs that make me a part of this organization. And we we've we've beat this to death but we could go into like why this even exists. Like why why why why we even have this fraternity where we allow members of different beliefs to be in it? And it's essentially

1:42:27Ryan Terbibullgoes back, you know, there's a little bit of debate on who started first, the Scots and the Londoners kind of argue over who had the first lodge. But essentially, you're coming out of the era of the English civil war.

1:42:38Ryan TerbibullAnd prior to the English civil war, you also have several other religious wars in Europe and they were trying to create a society of men who had different religious beliefs,

1:42:49Ryan Terbibullbut could still come together and work on themselves and work together for good. That was that was the entire purpose of it and why we allowed it to be open to

1:43:00Ryan Terbibullthese different religions.

1:43:02Ryan TerbibullYes, with some qualifiers,

1:43:04Ryan TerbibullJay.

1:43:05Jay DyerAre those theological qualifiers?

1:43:07Ryan TerbibullPerhaps, if you wanna lay it lay it that way. Thanks, Antioch. It was

1:43:10Jay Dyertwo hours to get this into

1:43:11Ryan TerbibullDoes that make it a theology? Does that make it Yeah. Generic Theologism. Qualifiers. That makes it Yeah. Feel a a a some

1:43:18Ryan Terbibullsort of qualifier against satanism makes it incompatible Christianity?

1:43:22Ryan TerbibullThese qualifiers. Here's Ludo.

1:43:24Chase GeyserHere's the problem. These qualifiers are not a matter of explicit written Masonic

1:43:29Chase Geyserpolicy. These qualifiers are a practical outcome of of the the the the content of the membership.

1:43:35DJ BolgerAlright. I think we've beat this to death.

1:43:38DJ BolgerLet's

1:43:39DJ BolgerI I have a final question. I wanna go around the horn, and anybody who wants to ask a question during this can go walk up over there,

1:43:48DJ Bolgerand go towards the audience mic.

1:43:51DJ BolgerJoel and Sarah, would you mind getting a position for that? And

1:43:54DJ BolgerOkay. So I wanna ask a ending question real quick, and so we can start with Chase and go all the way around here.

1:44:02DJ BolgerIf Paul were alive today,

1:44:06DJ Bolgerand he was writing a letter to Freemasonry

1:44:09DJ Bolgermore broadly. Now, know it's not a centralized force. Let's just say the same letter goes to each each lodge. So he's writing to you know, Freemasonry TM, more broadly Yeah. The institution.

1:44:20DJ BolgerFirst Masons chapter three.

1:44:23DJ BolgerWell,

1:44:25DJ BolgerI just what do you think Paul's sentiment towards Freemasonry would be? So he's writing letters to all churches, not you know, not just Freemasonry

1:44:33DJ Bolgeras

1:44:34DJ Bolgeryou know, an institution or whatever. But, would he have positive things to say, negative things to say? Do you think he'd be just indifferent period?

1:44:43Chase GeyserThat's a really good question and frankly, I don't know the answer.

1:44:47Ryan TerbibullYeah. I'd really hate to pretend that I could speak for the apostle Paul.

1:44:52Ryan TerbibullThat said,

1:44:56Ryan Terbibullyou know, Paul was a student of comparative religion.

1:45:00Ryan TerbibullHe did study

1:45:02Ryan Terbibullother religions and he went in and tried to connect with them. I don't

1:45:06Ryan Terbibullthink.

1:45:07Ryan TerbibullI can't think of a theological position of the apostle Paul that would contradictory

1:45:13Ryan Terbibulltowards

1:45:14Ryan Terbibullfreemasonry.

1:45:16Ryan TerbibullMaybe Jay has one.

1:45:17Jay DyerRight. Well, so we actually have a biblical example of the very thing that was asked, is essentially the

1:45:23Jay DyerMars Hill discourse where Paul goes to debate the Greek philosophers and the pagans in Acts 17. And if you look at Acts 17, the philosophy that they have, and certainly there were probably different philosophers there. Stoics are mentioned,

1:45:36Jay DyerEpicureans are mentioned,

1:45:38Jay Dyerbut probably Platonists, Pythagoreans, who knows. But one of the dominant elements of Hellenic philosophy was the idea that the world was eternally

1:45:48Jay Dyerin motion or eternally moved. And that's whether that's Plato's

1:45:52Jay Dyeremanations or Plotinus' later emanations after Paul, or whether that's Aristotle's eternal mover arguments.

1:45:59Jay DyerAgain, heard me at the very beginning mention that in Bezos Exameron in lecture two, he mentions the deity of Aristotle being a dyad which is an eternal world moved and

1:46:09Jay Dyerand

1:46:11Jay Dyerexistentially

1:46:12Jay Dyerexisting

1:46:13Jay Dyerthrough the first cause or the first actualizer.

1:46:17Jay DyerSo in that philosophy,

1:46:18Jay Dyeryou can see Paul refuting them in acts 17

1:46:22Jay Dyerhaving essentially the philosophy of generic theism that Masonry holds to. And he Paul argues that the deity that the Athenians are worshipping,

1:46:31Jay Dyerhe says that they even have an idol to the unknown god there without any name. And he says that deity that you claim to worship,

1:46:39Jay Dyerthis unknown God or this lost name that we've mentioned earlier, that I mentioned earlier tonight, the masonry has this lost name of God. Well, turns out Paul actually answers all those questions. He says, the unknown God

1:46:50Jay Dyeris the one that you actually worship unknowingly, And I don't believe that that means that Masons are actually worshiping God or Christ.

1:46:57Jay DyerIt is the Trinitarian deity

1:46:59Jay Dyerthat is expressed through the incarnation of the Lord Jesus Christ. So it actually says that we do know the name of God. It's Jesus. It's not

1:47:08Jay DyerJabalon.

1:47:09Jay DyerIt's not the tetragrammaton,

1:47:10Jay Dyeralthough the tetragrammaton points to Christ. So the answer is in Acts 17 ironically.

1:47:14DJ BolgerAlright.

1:47:16DJ BolgerWell, we got time for a few questions. Keep it to one please,

1:47:19DJ Bolgerand go for it.

1:47:21Speaker 4So on the Freemason side, remember when you said that you don't know which books are in the bible and which which aren't, and I really like that kind of Christianity.

1:47:31Speaker 4I have here with me the recently discovered Gospel of Jack. It's a very short book but it is divinely inspired and perfect just like the rest of the gospels. It says, and then Jesus said, give Jack all the money, all the women. He may he alone may have infinity wives.

1:47:46Speaker 4Do you reject the gospel of Jack? If yes, why? Please,

1:47:51Speaker 4Jay answer first.

1:47:53Jay DyerWell, Christianity was provided by Christ with a normative authority within history to make these types of decisions

1:48:00Jay Dyerin a synodial conciliar way. We can see in the first thousand years of the church that Christianity always had these types of local and ecumenical synods, and so that's the normative way that the church is governed. There are people who make the decisions of who's in and who's out. That's the orthodox church pretty clearly in the first thousand years,

1:48:18Jay Dyerand I would say that that's probably still the case today.

1:48:24Chase GeyserDo I reject the gospel of Jack?

1:48:26DJ BolgerYeah. Why?

1:48:30Chase GeyserYes. I reject the the gospel of Jack. I'm gonna answer the question why

1:48:35Chase Geyserother than the fact that it was, you know, made up as an example and argument to ask a question.

1:48:41Chase GeyserIt just doesn't it it doesn't line up within any the the context of the current theology that I have. But I currently believe it's unnecessary.

1:48:48Chase GeyserIt's just it doesn't line up at all with any other Christian philosophy in the New Testament.

1:48:52Chase GeyserSo do you

1:48:53Jay Dyerdetermine the canon? Do I determine?

1:48:55Chase GeyserNo. And Jesus does, but we do our best

1:48:56Jay DyerWhere did Joseph determine the canon of scripture?

1:48:58Chase GeyserI'm sorry. Where did Jesus. Determine the canon of I'm sorry. I misunderstood

1:49:03Chase Geyseryour question. Yes. So

1:49:05Chase Geyseras

1:49:06Chase Geyserhere's my philosophy on on the on the Bible. Let me just be explicit here.

1:49:12Chase GeyserIt's obvious from from

1:49:15Chase Geyserthe New Testament that you can be a Christian before the Bible was compiled or written. Right? It's obvious that people were being baptized Christian

1:49:22Chase Geysereven before Jesus was dead or any of it actually happened. There was baptisms that were taking place.

1:49:27Chase GeyserAnd one of the

1:49:30Chase Geyserconcerns that I have about contemporary Christianity, I don't mean to make this a specifically

1:49:34Chase Geysertheological

1:49:35Chase Geyserdebate,

1:49:36Chase Geyserbecause it doesn't really matter what I think is true or not religiously,

1:49:40Chase Geyseras far as is relevant to the the argument that we're having about whether or not Freemasonry is compatible with Christianity.

1:49:45Chase GeyserI think one of the mistakes that modern contemporary Christians make is they worship the Bible as a false idol,

1:49:50Chase Geyserand they study it more than they contemplate and pursue a relationship with God. So if you can be a Christian without the Bible, that means that the Bible is it's it's it's something that's added that's unnecessary.

1:50:02Chase GeyserIt's important. It contains true truth. It it documents what happened historically. It explains the theology,

1:50:08Chase Geyserbut I I get I get I feel miffed sometimes

1:50:12Chase Geyserby Christians who who spend all their time studying specific verses and specific letters

1:50:18Chase Geyserthat weren't even required to be known or written or conceived

1:50:22Chase Geyserin order to be a Christian originally. And I think that we should focus on our relationship with God through Jesus Christ more than we focus on studying the scripture. I do feel that way, personally.

1:50:34Chase GeyserI know it's a controversial take.

1:50:37DJ BolgerRemind, do wanna answer that, or do you

1:50:38Jay Dyerwanna go to the next one? What are we still on?

1:50:41DJ BolgerNo. Alright. Let me go to the next one, Jack. Yes. Let's just go to the next one here for time's sake. I think I believe God is a paradox, and I think even now the Orthodox Church allows non Christians beyond the nave.

1:50:52DJ BolgerBut my question

1:50:53Chase Geyseris specific for Jay, but

1:50:54DJ BolgerI welcome everyone to chime in.

1:50:56DJ BolgerI'm employed at a multinational corporation. We have over 600,000 employees,

1:51:01DJ Bolgerand we even employ

1:51:03DJ Bolgerirreligious atheists.

1:51:04DJ BolgerI have private closed door business meetings with them.

1:51:08DJ BolgerDoes that conflict with my Roman Catholic Christian duties in religion?

1:51:15Jay DyerI wouldn't think so. As a Roman Catholic, you have

1:51:19Jay DyerI've never heard of anything that would conflict between a a corporate stance unless you were through the corporation explicitly required to

1:51:27Jay Dyerdo something that would be a mortal sin or something like that.

1:51:33Jay DyerThank you. Are you are you making the equivalence to masonry?

1:51:38DJ BolgerIf you gather that and deduce it, I think it's fair.

1:51:41Chase GeyserI think he's trying to I don't wanna speak for him, but I think he's trying to imply that what's he's trying to ask the question, what's the difference between working for an organization that allows people who deny Christ,

1:51:51Chase Geyserand in joining a fraternity that that is ambiguous in its definition of the supreme being?

1:51:56Jay DyerBecause the ambiguity

1:51:57Jay Dyeractually turned into specificity,

1:52:00Jay Dyerwhich was the point, And your own Catholic church dog dogmatizes

1:52:03Jay Dyerand mandates that you can't be a free mason in the canon law. So you would be against Roman Catholic canon law being a mason,

1:52:11Jay Dyerbut you would not be against Roman Catholic canon law by being in a corporation. And the difference is precisely because

1:52:17Jay DyerMasonry as we've seen tonight, is not just a philosophy or a secular society,

1:52:21Jay Dyerit actually has an explicated theological requirement, and that was what I was trying to demonstrate.

1:52:27Jay DyerThose are false equivalence.

1:52:29DJ BolgerIt's a good point, I didn't make the equivalence.

1:52:31DJ BolgerLet's go to

1:52:32Jay Dyerthe next one. Sorry.

1:52:33Chase GeyserGood question.

1:52:34DJ BolgerGood question. We

1:52:35DJ Bolgergot time for a few more, so go for it.

1:52:38DJ BolgerHey.

1:52:40DJ BolgerThis is for Jay. Christ is risen, first of all. And

1:52:44DJ Bolgerquickly, do you have any plans for a Freemason cringe core track? And what what are some good books that I can read on the Jewish acabolistic connection with Freemason?

1:52:55Jay DyerMight get my throat slit if I make a song. Yeah. You gotta plug

1:52:59Jay Dyeryour own books, Jay. It's just a joke. There's

1:53:03Jay Dyera great book that somebody sent me many years ago by William Green called The Blazing Star and the Jewish Kabbalah and it's about the

1:53:09Jay Dyerinfluence of Kabbalah on freemasonry.

1:53:12Jay DyerWilliam Green?

1:53:18Jay DyerA question for the two freemasons.

1:53:22Jay DyerSaint Paul wrote about not being unequally yoked with unbelievers.

1:53:26Chase GeyserYeah.

1:53:28Jay DyerAnd I know you guys kinda touched on the oath taking and how we do take an oath in a courtroom and that sort of thing. But you call your lodge members brothers. Yeah. And I

1:53:39Jay Dyerwonder about

1:53:41Jay DyerGod specifically calls us in the christian faith to be set apart from the Why

1:53:46Jay Dyerwould you fraternize

1:53:49Jay Dyerwith people who believe in

1:53:52Jay Dyera version of a deity that is antichrist?

1:53:56Chase GeyserYeah. That's a good question. I would say that, and Ryan, I'd like to hear your thoughts too. I I I think that distinguishing

1:54:02Chase Geyserbetween who's a legitimate brother in Christ

1:54:05Chase Geyseris is different than

1:54:08Chase Geyserqualifying

1:54:09Chase Geyserpeople as fraternity brothers.

1:54:11Chase GeyserSo there are some brothers in the fraternity for example, who I would not consider brothers in Christ,

1:54:17Chase Geyserbecause we don't share the same theological,

1:54:19Chase Geyserwell, I wouldn't take communion with these people, but what we're doing in the in the Masonic Lodge is not it's not like a religious sacrament or or that type of that type of communion.

1:54:30Chase GeyserWhat would you say, Ryan?

1:54:31Ryan TerbibullYeah. Essentially that. I mean, I I would just add to it that,

1:54:37Ryan Terbibullyou know, the idea that,

1:54:41Ryan Terbibullor your original point about being unequally yoked.

1:54:47Ryan TerbibullThere is no, you know, I've never had a masonic brother try to talk me out of my christianity,

1:54:53Ryan Terbibullto proselytize another faith. There's nothing that's made me doubt my faith.

1:54:59Ryan TerbibullIt's a personal journey, an individual journey

1:55:01Ryan Terbibullthat exposes you to different ideas, you're left up, you know, as a man to still make

1:55:07Chase Geyseryour

1:55:08Ryan Terbibullown

1:55:09Ryan Terbibulldeterminations.

1:55:10Ryan TerbibullAnd I've actually seen the opposite. I've seen men that joined the fraternity

1:55:15Ryan Terbibullthat didn't start out as Christians.

1:55:18Ryan TerbibullMaybe they had a more deistic

1:55:20Ryan Terbibullview, maybe they were just kind of you know I'm an example

1:55:23DJ Bolgerof that.

1:55:24Ryan TerbibullYeah.

1:55:25Ryan TerbibullAnd through their involvement

1:55:27Ryan Terbibullin the fraternity,

1:55:29Ryan Terbibullwhich stresses, it doesn't tell you which,

1:55:32Ryan Terbibullbut it stresses the need for you to seek out God.

1:55:36Ryan TerbibullThese men have become strong Christians

1:55:39Ryan Terbibullthrough

1:55:40Ryan Terbibullfreemasonry,

1:55:41Ryan Terbibulland I have not seen the opposite. I've not seen a strong christian man join

1:55:46Ryan Terbibulland then somehow be turned into a hindu

1:55:50Ryan Terbibullor etcetera.

1:55:51Jay DyerI would say that that's a great text because in the context of Corinthians where Paul's talking about that, he's talking about religiously,

1:56:00Jay Dyerphysically,

1:56:01Jay Dyertheologically,

1:56:03Jay Dyerknow, all types of unions that you could have with somebody. Says we can't share the table of demons and the table of God. We can be unequally yoked, for example, he advises against marrying an unbelieving wife. So there are spiritual realities according to Paul that will yoke us and link us through these types of oaths and organizations.

1:56:21Jay DyerEven though they claim that it's purely secular,

1:56:24Jay Dyeras we've seen I think tonight, the claims are not actually when they're fleshed out purely secular, they're actually heavily theological. So I actually think this is a really good Bring

1:56:32Ryan Terbibullup the obligations again, you're specifically told

1:56:36Ryan Terbibullthat

1:56:37Ryan Terbibullthey are not

1:56:39Ryan Terbibullincompatible

1:56:41Ryan Terbibullor

1:56:43Ryan Terbibullabove

1:56:43Ryan Terbibullthe obligations,

1:56:45Ryan Terbibullthe duties that you have to God, your family, your country.

1:56:48Jay DyerOkay. Are you brotherhood

1:56:49Jay Dyeryoked with Hindus?

1:56:51Chase GeyserSay again, I'm sorry?

1:56:53Jay DyerAre you brotherhood

1:56:54Jay Dyeryoked with Hindus?

1:56:58Chase GeyserMean, in the context of a lodge, think probably the answer is yes.

1:57:02Chase GeyserYeah.

1:57:03DJ BolgerAlright. I'll only obey each one just for the time sake.

1:57:06Jay DyerOkay. Sure. You make one final point, one final point.

1:57:09Chase GeyserWhen I'm brotherhood yoked with my biological brother too regardless of what he believes, right?

1:57:13Ryan TerbibullYeah. The the implication there is that you you somehow because of that

1:57:17Ryan Terbibullbeing yoked

1:57:19Ryan Terbibullas in a marriage perhaps where you know, you have someone of a different faith that you're married to. That there's there's some obligation or pressure there to adopt their faith

1:57:29Ryan Terbibulland there's not.

1:57:30Jay DyerPaul doesn't say that. He just simply says to be unequally yoked. I mean, could I be in the Mithra cult at the same time as being a Christian?

1:57:37Jay DyerNo. Thanks for Alright.

1:57:38DJ BolgerI don't. Next question.

1:57:40DJ BolgerThank you

1:57:40Speaker 5everyone for being here. Appreciate the debate. This question is for Ryan.

1:57:44Speaker 5You talked about how monotheistic satanists would not pass a moral character test of freemasons.

1:57:50Speaker 5So that kinda talks to objective morality.

1:57:53Speaker 5So I was wondering how are Muslims able to become freemasons when they believe in child brides, female circumcision,

1:57:58Speaker 5other demonic wouldn't

1:57:59Chase Geyserget in my lodge, I

1:58:00Ryan Terbibullwould say they would not be allowed.

1:58:01Ryan TerbibullBut there is We're not asking

1:58:03Jay Dyeryou, we're asking the lodge.

1:58:04Ryan TerbibullSure. Yeah.

1:58:05Ryan TerbibullWell, there's

1:58:07Ryan Terbibullokay. You brought up a a funny example

1:58:11Ryan Terbibullabout the Seity, am I pronouncing that right? One of your videos, Sattu. The practice of widow burning in Hinduism.

1:58:19Ryan TerbibullAnd you imply that you know, because we may allow a Hindu that that we would have to accept this practice of widow burning.

1:58:25Jay DyerI think No. The argument is what he said, it's what's the argument, it's arbitrary.

1:58:32Ryan TerbibullDid did you not make that claim or am I misstudying

1:58:35Chase GeyserThe point

1:58:35Jay Dyerof the argument is not that you support widow burning, it's that the ethics are arbitrary.

1:58:43Ryan TerbibullNo. They're not. The entire system, the degrees are teaching very specific

1:58:49Ryan Terbibullethics philosophies.

1:58:50Jay DyerFrom and we saw that that was from we don't know where, cardinal

1:58:54Jay Dyervirtues. Okay. Says who?

1:58:56Ryan TerbibullThat was one small example, but

1:58:58Jay DyerI mean we And where literally never said where they're from you said, I don't know.

1:59:01Ryan TerbibullNo. I said we pull from a lot of different religions and we Oh.

1:59:04Jay DyerYou pull from religions for your ethics.

1:59:07Jay DyerOh.

1:59:08Jay DyerOops. Remember this wasn't a theological

1:59:10Jay Dyersociety.

1:59:11Ryan TerbibullNo. Pulls from religion. You agree

1:59:13Ryan Terbibullthat Oh. Religions contain philosophies that weren't theological?

1:59:16Jay DyerI'm just going about what you just said. Yeah. So you Do you pull from religions?

1:59:21Ryan TerbibullWe pull your ethics? Philosophies

1:59:23Ryan Terbibullthat are You just said religions.

1:59:25Jay DyerYou messed up and said religions.

1:59:27Ryan TerbibullNo. Said we pull from religions. We pull philosophies at England with it.

1:59:31Jay DyerDo you pull your ethics from religions? That's what he said.

1:59:33Ryan TerbibullAnd not just religion. Some of it, there is some stuff. Oh, human make.

1:59:36Jay DyerYou tripped up and and undid all of your first hour of argument. No. I did. Yeah. No. Yeah. You did. Oh. You just said you pull from religions. That undoes everything in the first hour. I've I've said that. You refuted your whole first hour with that statement right there.

1:59:47DJ BolgerGo ahead. Yeah. This topic. Yeah. Let's go to next person please. Go ahead.

1:59:51DJ BolgerI think you you kinda already touched with a previous question, but

1:59:55DJ Bolgeryou know, Jesus says no one comes to the father but through me. Yeah. Do you all make as Christians and being Masons, do you

2:00:04DJ Bolgermake an effort to proselytize

2:00:07DJ BolgerMuslims or Buddhist

2:00:10DJ Bolgeror

2:00:10Chase GeyserAs a Christian certainly, as a Mason, not explicitly.

2:00:14Ryan TerbibullIn in the lodge itself, we can't discuss religion or politics.

2:00:18Ryan TerbibullAgain, going back to this idea of of trying to have some sort of unity

2:00:23Ryan Terbibullwhen we're working together. So so those types of discussions do not happen within the lodge itself.

2:00:28Jay DyerEven though he That's trolls his ethics from religion.

2:00:30Jay DyerYeah. And you just get the old religion.

2:00:32Ryan TerbibullNaturally, as you

2:00:35Ryan Terbibullget to know people as individuals, build relationships you end up having these conversations.

2:00:40Ryan TerbibullSo yes,

2:00:41Ryan Terbibullbut not in not in the context. No one stands up

2:00:46Ryan Terbibullin the lodge

2:00:47Ryan Terbibulland tries to proselytize one religion over another.

2:00:51Ryan TerbibullBut me as a christian, will talk about my faith with brothers. Yes. Okay. And I don't know if

2:00:55DJ Bolgery'all can talk about, so I read angels and demons how they talk about

2:00:59DJ BolgerCatholic church and masonry. Maybe you all can talk

2:01:02DJ Bolgerabout that. Sorry. No follow ups, dude. Love you, but we gotta get to the next person.

2:01:05Chase GeyserGo

2:01:05DJ Bolgerahead. Yeah. My question's for Jay Dyer. You said earlier that you think the Orthodox Church is the true way and other Christians are being heretical, or am I misreading that?

2:01:14Jay DyerNo. You're not.

2:01:15DJ BolgerOkay.

2:01:16DJ BolgerWhen we made a covenant with Jesus, which is an intimate spiritual relationship, we didn't make a covenant with a corporeal body, like a church, like that's a place of worship. So isn't that an antithetical belief in itself?

2:01:28Jay DyerIsn't it what? A what belief?

2:01:30DJ BolgerLike antithetical, like it doesn't make sense. It's almost like an oxymoron because we made a covenant with Jesus. When he died, he made a new covenant with us. It's not to a rigid church structure.

2:01:39Jay DyerPaul said there's one Lord, one faith, one baptism, and one body. And if you go through the first, second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth centuries, that body is the Orthodox Church.

2:01:48DJ BolgerBut what leads you to believe that when we made a covenant with him individually?

2:01:52Jay DyerYou make the covenant with him in his church, his body. So it's not your it's a false either or to say that it's just you and Jesus. This is just like an evangelical idea.

2:02:03Jay DyerOkay. Thank you.

2:02:04Ryan TerbibullThank you, brother.

2:02:05DJ BolgerAlright. Last question of the night.

2:02:07Speaker 6Hey. For the two free Masons Chase. I'm sorry. Don't remember your name, sir.

2:02:11Speaker 6Right. Really old question for Masons. I'm sure y'all will knock it out of park. It's softballing.

2:02:16Speaker 6And it's not hypothetical.

2:02:17Speaker 6When a professing Christian comes as an initiate to freemasonry

2:02:22Speaker 6and comes from darkness seeking the light, what is the light that they're searching for outside of Christ in

2:02:28Chase Geyserthe church? Good question.

2:02:29Chase GeyserSure. That's a good question.

2:02:33Chase GeyserYeah. So I say, I would argue that the that the

2:02:37Chase Geysermotif in masonry of coming from darkness to life is is a metaphor or a symbol for the importance of of always endeavoring to pursue the truth.

2:02:47Chase GeyserAnd it's not it's not a claim that masonry has a truth beyond or better than or more absolute

2:02:55Chase Geyserthan than Jesus Christ specifically.

2:02:57Chase GeyserIt's just an emphasis on the importance of always pursuing absolute truth. So as a Christian for example,

2:03:03Chase Geyserthe way that I would experience that in the context of Masonry is, are you coming from darkness to light? It's it's part of that that that perpetual effort to become a better person or a better Christian.

2:03:14Chase GeyserSo that's a really good question, but

2:03:16Chase GeyserTheology.

2:03:19Chase GeyserNo. No, right? I just I disagree with that. I 100% disagree with that.

2:03:24Ryan TerbibullYeah. But see you

2:03:25Jay Dyersee, they always switch back to what their personal beliefs are when they're asked about what masonic philosophy and teaching is.

2:03:30Ryan TerbibullSo they, you know, that

2:03:30Jay Dyerthe whole day they go back and forth, which is a game.

2:03:33Ryan TerbibullIt's not a game, it's literally the truth.

2:03:35Jay DyerIt's evading the question that's asked about masonry and then you dishonestly go and say, well my personal belief is this, but as a mason is this. The questions are all about masonry, not your personal beliefs.

2:03:45Ryan TerbibullWell, when masonry doesn't have a particular stance on that and people ask our beliefs, we're giving them our personal beliefs.

2:03:52Jay DyerHe was asking you about masonry when a christian becomes a mason in the light and then you said, well my personal belief, but the question is about masonry, he's teaching about the light.

2:03:59Ryan TerbibullYeah. Masonry Light is just a symbolism for like further knowledge. So in the context of you know, how does a if a Christian already knows the truth, how would they pursue further truth? Is that am I misquoting you? Is that

2:04:11Ryan Terbibullloosely?

2:04:12Ryan TerbibullRight. Correct question is similar.

2:04:16DJ BolgerHe's saying if you're a Christian and you're entering and they say, you know, you're going Right. Darker say, already saw light. Let's see.

2:04:23Chase GeyserYou don't already have. I understand. Yeah. Understand the I'm

2:04:25DJ Bolgerjust reiterating for Ryan. He's asking.

2:04:26Ryan TerbibullYeah. No. I I've I've never seen that implication in the symbolism of what light is. Well well, I'm a Christian and I believe in this ultimate truth. I also don't have this

2:04:39Ryan Terbibullfalse belief that I know everything. You know,

2:04:42Jay DyerI'm I'm going Nobody was claiming that.

2:04:44Ryan TerbibullI I'm going to yeah. I it is my duty as a man,

2:04:48Ryan Terbibullas a christian, as a mason to continue to try to seek out and understand truth and further my knowledge.

2:04:56DJ BolgerAlright. Final question of the night. I

2:04:58Jay DyerI wanted I didn't I would like to say that according to Albert Pike, he says, Lucifer, son of the morning, it is he that bears the light. Yeah. And who with splendors intolerable blinds the feeble souls.

2:05:10Jay DyerDoubt it not for the traditions are full of divine revelations and inspirations such as Plato, filio, etcetera. So he is saying that it's not for everybody, but according to the nineteenth degree,

2:05:21Jay Dyerthey are supposed to despise the palms and works elusive for even though he's the one that brings light.

2:05:27Ryan TerbibullYeah. So love

2:05:29Ryan Terbibullto take that one out of context, don't you? So the the full quote is the apocalypse.

2:05:34Ryan TerbibullNow granted this is like a thousand page book on comparative religion.

2:05:38Ryan TerbibullThe word Lucifer is mentioned in this one section.

2:05:42Ryan TerbibullHere is the full quote and technically not even a full one because there's there's a lot more to it. But the the apocalypse is to those who receive the nineteenth degree,

2:05:51Ryan Terbibullthe apotheosis of that sublime faith which aspires to God alone

2:05:56Ryan Terbibulland despises

2:05:58Ryan Terbibullthe palms and works of Lucifer. Love love to leave that part out. And then you start with Lucifer,

2:06:03Ryan Terbibullthe light bearer. Strange and mysterious name to give to the spirit of darkness. This is Pike commenting on the irony of the etymology of the word Lucifer meaning light bearer to describe a spirit of darkness.

2:06:16Ryan TerbibullAnd then he goes on, Lucifer, son of the morning, another morning star, another meaning of Lucifer.

2:06:22Ryan TerbibullIs it he who bears the light? And with its splendors intolerably

2:06:26Ryan Terbibullblinds feeble senses since excuse me, sensual or selfless souls.

2:06:32Ryan TerbibullHe's essentially saying it is first ironic

2:06:36Ryan Terbibullthat Lucifer,

2:06:37Ryan Terbibullwhich means light bearer or morning star,

2:06:40Ryan Terbibullis a name given

2:06:41Ryan Terbibullto a spirit of darkness.

2:06:43Ryan TerbibullAnd as part of that irony,

2:06:46Ryan Terbibullperhaps it's because Lucifer

2:06:48Ryan Terbibullwho bears the light

2:06:50Ryan Terbibullwith its splendor,

2:06:52Ryan Terbibullblinds the feeble.

2:06:53Jay DyerBut does he bring the revelation?

2:06:56Jay DyerNo.

2:06:57Jay DyerBut it's what he says. He says, for the traditions are full of divine revelations and inspirations from this Lucifer.

2:07:02Ryan TerbibullWhat's your implication, Jay, that that that Pike worships Lucifer?

2:07:07Jay DyerLike what what is a perennialist, so perhaps.

2:07:11Jay DyerBut the next paragraph says, the Zohar and the apocalypse are the embodiments of occultism and these give us the meant the the meanings of the temple of salt quick keep like this Does he some other ways, but next year We can The next paragraph, he doesn't want me to talk about the next piece. He doesn't want me to say what the next paragraph says, which Say is that it. That the the Mason is concerned with the mysteries of the temples of Sola Of Temple Of Solomon, which is derived from the Zohar,

2:07:37Jay Dyerwhich is the Talmudic

2:07:38Ryan TerbibullAnd then another holistic teaching. Know, out of context, but we can just

2:07:41Jay DyerIt's not out of context.

2:07:42Ryan TerbibullNo, it's not. Rejecting the wild and useless speculations of the Zindavesta, the Kabbalah, the Gnostics,

2:07:49Ryan Terbibulland the schools or the religion and so, you know.

2:07:51Jay DyerWell, doesn't tell us what the wild speculations are when he's a perennialist.

2:07:54Ryan TerbibullMaking Okay.

2:07:57Ryan TerbibullAnd he's calls me a wild speculation.

2:07:59Jay DyerLet's make this very simple. What does he say then about the trinity and the deed of Christ? He goes on on pages five seventy four and five seventy five to say that the holy spirit is not a person and the trinity is a false teaching. Dude. Because don't interrupt me. Origen said He says Origen. Hi buddy. He says Origen He says

2:08:17Jay DyerOrigen is the true teacher of Christianity

2:08:20Jay Dyerwith his neo platonism. So he denies the trinity one chapter later.

2:08:24Chase GeyserJust because Albert Pike denies it, here we go, it's not mean that

2:08:27Jay DyerWhy are trying to deny it? Why are you trying to defend him?

2:08:29Chase GeyserAnd we we, you know, we've even I know we've been You were defending him. We've even been explicit in stating It doesn't matter.

2:08:35Jay DyerRight? Defending him, but now he doesn't matter.

2:08:36Ryan TerbibullYeah. I I'm I'm letting not letting you take a quote out of

2:08:40Jay DyerDoes he deny the trinity? To

2:08:42Jay Dyerhe deny the trinity in this implication

2:08:43Ryan Terbibullis that we're Luciferian.

2:08:45Jay DyerDoes he Yeah. Because you deny the trinity here.

2:08:47Ryan TerbibullYeah. That we worship

2:08:48Jay DyerDoes he deny the trinity in the next chapter?

2:08:51Ryan TerbibullI'd have to look at that chapter, but maybe.

2:08:52Jay DyerYeah. He says the Origen had the true doctrine. Okay.

2:08:54Chase GeyserYeah. I think it's irrelevant what Til says, because that's his opinion.

2:08:58Jay DyerRight. But you wanted to defend it a minute ago when he asked about

2:09:00Ryan Terbibullit. No. I wanted to make sure that you weren't, you know, trying to

2:09:05Ryan Terbibullbasically leave out the first sentence of a quote to make it seem like Yeah. We he seems Just that. Pro Lucifer while He says not explaining the far where it's very clearly

2:09:14Jay DyerHe says the world is an eternal emanation of God on page five seventy five Yep. Which is the Origenist teaching.

2:09:19Ryan TerbibullNo. Okay.

2:09:20Jay DyerSo he denies creation.

2:09:22Chase GeyserOkay.

2:09:23Jay DyerOh, I'm glad you don't care that you're in league. Alright. This you're in league with these guys.

2:09:27Jay DyerThis is your spiritual yoke. Alright. No. No. You are? No. What do you mean?

2:09:31DJ BolgerYou just made your yoked with these guys and you think it's funny.

2:09:34Jay DyerNo. No. No. No. No. No.

2:09:37DJ BolgerOkay. Alright. Alright.

2:09:40DJ BolgerEmily, are you asking a question?

2:09:42DJ BolgerYes. Okay. Sorry. Didn't realize there's one more over there. Go go for it.

2:09:45Speaker 7So the whole purpose of all of this is curiosity. So this question comes out of curiosity. This is for Jay.

2:09:51Speaker 7So if we go back to when we everybody was talking about

2:09:55Speaker 7the specifications of utilizing god's image using when you walk into the temples, there's images of god,

2:10:02Speaker 7therefore it must be a religious group.

2:10:04Speaker 7What then would be your counter argument to the pledge of allegiance?

2:10:08Speaker 7Or or the statements that

2:10:10Speaker 7the country uses because we are inclusive of all sorts of different beliefs.

2:10:15Speaker 7The country itself is inclusive of all sorts of religions,

2:10:18Speaker 7but your argument would base that we therefore require to be a Christian nation.

2:10:23Speaker 7Yeah. And through that,

2:10:26Speaker 7does not all moral value come out

2:10:28Jay Dyerof

2:10:28Speaker 7religious philosophies at some point or another?

2:10:32Jay DyerI'm not sure what you mean about the pledge allegiance. Are you asking like is

2:10:35Chase GeyserYou say one nation under God. One nation under I know

2:10:37Jay Dyerwhat it is.

2:10:37Chase GeyserIs the orthodox philosophy or theology compatible with with actually saying the pledge?

2:10:42Jay DyerThe entire American enlightenment ethos is premised on the masonic idea of an enlightened deistic type of deity that is sufficiently generic that you can paste onto whatever you want. So the

2:10:53Jay DyerI forget the woman's name that came up with a pledge. She was like some sort of weird socialist woman. Point being is that, yeah, that actually comes out of the very masonic ethos that we're criticizing. So

2:11:04Jay DyerI mean, inherently,

2:11:05Jay Dyeris it wrong to say the pledge of allegiance? Not necessarily,

2:11:08Jay Dyerbut saying the pledge of allegiance

2:11:10Chase GeyserBut it's an ambiguous God. It's just you know.

2:11:12Jay DyerIf if you mean, like if I say I believe one nation. I'm

2:11:17Jay Dyernot joining a society which is requiring me to have some sort of generic

2:11:20Chase GeyserYou're just pledging the allegiance to be in yoke with everybody else who takes the same pledge.

2:11:24Jay DyerI You guys dogmatize that it's a generic theism. I can say the pledge of allegiance meaning the trinity.

2:11:30Chase GeyserRight? Right. You can also join Masonry meaning the trinity. Oh, Jorgamune have the dog. Oh my god. It's you have the exact thing. So you just say, plies of allegiance to an ambiguous god. Same thing. And you'd be yoked with everybody else who pledges allegiance to the same country. It's not Yeah. Different somehow than joining an organization that all still have that ambiguity for God.

2:11:48Jay DyerIt doesn't know how grammar works. It's not the same thing first of all because your society requires You know

2:11:54Chase Geyserhow grammar works, so now I'm just arguing words? You now we're just

2:11:57DJ Bolgerarguing semantics? You have to the entire argument has

2:11:59Jay Dyerbeen words from you guys and semantics. Oh, I see. And your own personal subjective positions. Yeah. You think you got a gotcha? You didn't get a gotcha. First of all, you require theological

2:12:08Jay Dyerpositions to join the lodge. That was the argument.

2:12:11Chase GeyserYou require theological positions to take to take the pledge.

2:12:14DJ BolgerI'm not joining a lodge by taking the pledge. I'm saying

2:12:17Chase GeyserYou're being yoked with everybody else. You pledges to the same legion.

2:12:21Chase GeyserYou're you're voluntarily committing yourself, dedicating yourself to our ehemit.

2:12:25Jay DyerThe argument was that Masonry has a generic theism that it claims,

2:12:31Jay Dyerand then it specifies all of these other criteria. If I say the pledge, I'm not specified to have all of these enlightenment doctrines and heretical doctrines as your cult says,

2:12:40Jay Dyerthat make me able to say the pledge of allegiance. I can say the pledge of allegiance and not have to abide by a bunch of heterodox doctrines that your dumb cult teaches. That's why it's a false equivalent. Oh, when you say the Pledge

2:12:52Chase Geyserof Allegiance, you're abiding by a number of things.

2:12:54Chase GeyserAbout about what? You're abiding by a number of things. Pledge allegiance to the flag of The United States

2:12:58Jay DyerOf America. Nothing nothing in And to

2:13:00Chase Geyserthe republic for which it stands. Nomination under God. Indonable. And liberty. Understand all sorts of claims about nomination.

2:13:05Jay DyerAnd that is antithetical to Orthodox Christianity.

2:13:07Chase GeyserAnd nothing in Freemasonry is antithetical to Christianity. And he whatsoever. Yes.

2:13:10Jay DyerIt is. And that was the whole point of the argument. I mean, if you

2:13:13Chase Geysercould literally say the pledge of allegiance of via Muslim and it's totally just equally applicable to you. And if you're a chrism, you say the pledge of allegiance. Are you this It's the same shit.

2:13:21Jay DyerNo. It's not. The fact that you can do it does not mean that your society doesn't have theological

2:13:27Jay Dyerdogmas. That was the argument. So you're making a straw man, which was not what I argued.

2:13:32Jay DyerOkay.

2:13:33Jay DyerI agree to disagree.

2:13:35Jay DyerIt's not the same.

2:13:36Chase GeyserI fail to see the difference whatsoever.

2:13:38Jay DyerThe fact that you fail to see the that's a psychological report. It's irrelevant to the fact that it is different because if I say the pledge of allegiance, I'm not required to believe let me ask you this. Am I required to believe

2:13:48Jay Dyerin the masonic doctrine of God?

2:13:50Jay DyerRight?

2:13:51Chase GeyserThere is no masonic doctrine of God.

2:13:53Jay DyerThere is. They're lying. We saw in the first hour that there is and then he admitted that their doctrines come from religion. Their ethics come from religion. He said he messed up when he said that.

2:14:00Ryan TerbibullI didn't mess up. I said the same thing. Let me say it.

2:14:02Jay DyerThe enlightenment doctrine of God. If I say the pledge of allegiance, there's nothing that requires me to have an enlightenment interpretation

2:14:09Jay Dyerof the word God there.

2:14:10Chase GeyserThere's nothing that requires you to have an enlightenment interpretation of of the word God already in? Yes.

2:14:16Chase GeyserThere is. False.

2:14:17Jay DyerThat's what the whole debate showed, and you guys contradict yourself 20 times trying to explain how it wasn't the case. No. This whole debate showed that.

2:14:25DJ BolgerAlright. Leave a comment under the video who's right here. Thanks

2:14:29DJ Bolgery'all. Alright. Thank you guys so much for coming out.

2:14:35DJ BolgerYeah.

2:14:45DJ BolgerAlright. We've gone a little long, so screw closing statements. Just tell people where they can find you. What? Just tell people where they can find you and promote your work.

2:14:54Jay DyerYeah. You can find me at jasonolysis.com

2:14:56Jay Dyerwebsite. You can find me on YouTube jdyer.com

2:14:58Jay Dyeror jdyer. You can find me on x, same name and all the other outlets.

2:15:03Jay DyerBy the way, will have books in the back if wanna get books.

2:15:05DJ BolgerYeah. He'll do a yeah.

2:15:07Jay DyerGo for it.

2:15:08Ryan TerbibullYeah. You can find me here.

2:15:11Ryan TerbibullI'm not I'm not a personality. Just how real I can really chase guys around next

2:15:14Chase Geyserfor me. Yeah. And alright,

2:15:16DJ BolgerThanks, guys.