FULL SAVAGE DEBATE: Jay Dyer Vs Indiana Brunner: Protestant Bible Wrong???

0:00Jay DyerAnd you can come and smash me. Calvinist,

0:03Jay Dyermaking a big fuss. James White,

0:06Jay Dyercan't stop talking about me.

0:08Jay DyerAnd, I did I posted my, thirty minute roast forty minute roast, so you can go watch the roast.

0:14Jay DyerIndiana, what's up, man? Come come, let's chat about

0:17Jay Dyerour exchange.

0:28Jay DyerYou got on mute.

0:32Indiana BrunnerYo.

0:33Indiana BrunnerHey.

0:37Jay DyerAre you there?

0:38Speaker 2What's up?

0:38Jay DyerCan you hear me?

0:39Speaker 2Yeah. I can hear you.

0:41Jay DyerYeah. I mean, was perfectly cordial to you when I asked you if you wanted to debate. You said,

0:46Jay DyerI'm not interested in representing a position in a debate forum, but you're open to conversation.

0:51Jay DyerAnd I asked you a couple times if you'd like to chat. So where did I do anything like what you accused me of?

1:00Indiana BrunnerNo. Yeah. I I came on here to publicly apologize.

1:04Indiana BrunnerI'm

1:05Indiana Brunnerhumbly admitting that I was wrong. I misrepresented

1:09Indiana Brunnerour conversation.

1:10Indiana BrunnerI deleted the tweet not as a I'm trying to hide what I did,

1:14Indiana Brunnerbut I did I misrepresented,

1:16Indiana Brunnerand I exaggerated our conversation. Shouldn't have done that.

1:19Jay DyerFair enough. I will take it down because you were

1:22Indiana BrunnerWell, I mean, to do that. I mean I mean, I didn't come here to be, like, to try to cover my ass or anything, but

1:28Indiana BrunnerI I you know, there there comes a point where you do make a mistake online,

1:32Indiana Brunnerand you gotta come up and you gotta admit that you that you overstepped your bounds.

1:37Indiana BrunnerI was a little agitated,

1:41Indiana Brunnerbecause

1:42Indiana Brunnerand, you know, secondarily,

1:44Indiana Brunneryou know,

1:46Indiana BrunnerI don't know. I get a lot of DMs from people who I don't know if they're affiliated with you at all, and I'm not gonna assume that they are. But a lot of just

1:54Indiana Brunnerhorrible DMs, and they're all telling me to debate you,

1:58Indiana Brunnerand the just the horrible things I hear come coming in my DMs. So,

2:04Indiana Brunnerand I apologize

2:05Indiana Brunnerfor allowing that to

2:07Indiana Brunnerbleed over into,

2:09Indiana Brunneryou know, me talking about you in on a public forum.

2:12Jay DyerThat's all good. It's it's forgiven and forgotten.

2:15Jay DyerYou can if you anytime you'd like to have a conversation about the topics,

2:19Jay Dyerthe issues, it's an open

2:21Jay Dyerforum. It's there's an open door there. I would also say that if you post, you know, the Instagram stuff calling out orthodoxy,

2:29Jay Dyeryou have to expect pushback.

2:30Jay DyerI can't speak for all the people that DM you or what the comments are. My comment on your post, you know, going after relics was just, would you like to have a debate about this? And that's just my default modus operandi for everybody.

2:43Indiana BrunnerGotcha.

2:44Indiana BrunnerGotcha. No. Yeah. And I

2:47Indiana Brunnerrespect that.

2:49Indiana BrunnerI don't know. I'm not super familiar with a lot of your content.

2:53Indiana BrunnerSo, again, another apology, you know, just, like, making a blatant,

2:58Indiana Brunneryou know,

3:00Indiana Brunnerstatement about, you know, questioning your Christianity? Because I really don't

3:03Speaker 2I haven't taken the time to go over everything

3:07Speaker 2that you post.

3:08Speaker 2So,

3:09Indiana Brunneryeah, I'll take some time to look over, you know, your position in more depth, and, yeah, I'd definitely be down to have a conversation.

3:16Jay DyerYeah. We can we can it can be friendly. We don't have to be adversarial. It can be exchanged back and forth. It's fine. We we do that often.

3:23Jay DyerSo it's entirely up to

3:25Jay Dyerthe guest or the people that come on. If they wanna have a heated exchange, I'll do that. If they just wanna have a conversational exchange, we can do that as well.

3:33Indiana BrunnerAbsolutely.

3:34Indiana BrunnerAgain, I I know I already apologize. You already forgive me, but I just wanna say so sorry. Like, I I really,

3:39Indiana Brunnerlike, embarrassed.

3:42Indiana BrunnerBecause honest and I'm and I'm not gonna lie. Like, when I was typing

3:46Indiana Brunnerthat,

3:47Indiana BrunnerI I actually was thinking. I was like, I think I might be exaggerating a little bit.

3:52Indiana BrunnerAnd I still posted it anyway, so that should just you know, that and I feel I definitely feel shame in that. So It's okay.

3:58Speaker 2But

4:01Indiana Brunneryeah. Alright, everybody. I'm not gonna take up much of this, you know, space or any time. If you want me to stay up here and you wanna hear my opinion on whatever we're gonna talk about, but, if not, I'll just

4:10Jay DyerIt's up to you. Like, so we can talk about the principle behind relics. We can talk about what your issues are with orthodoxy, or we can save it for another time. It's ball's in your court.

4:22Indiana BrunnerWell, again, you know, I'm not super familiar

4:25Indiana Brunnerwith the the major distinctions between orthodoxy and catholicism. I I mainly I don't know if y'all people focus see what I post. I mainly focus on Catholicism because that's where I'm what I'm more familiar with. I have you know, half my family's Catholic.

4:40Indiana BrunnerGrew up in Louisiana. You know, Catholicism is all over the place.

4:45Indiana BrunnerOrthodoxy,

4:46Indiana BrunnerI've just it's like that's just within the past year and a half that I've really even

4:51Indiana Brunnerunderstood that there was a distinction between the two.

4:55Indiana BrunnerSo

4:57Indiana Brunnerand as far as I'm concerned, is there a distinction between,

5:00Indiana Brunneryou know, what

5:01Indiana BrunnerCatholics believe about relics versus what orthodox believe about relics?

5:06Indiana BrunnerYou know, is there is there something different there?

5:10Jay DyerWell, we would believe I mean, there would be some level of distinction between what we would say about relics and what a Roman Catholic would say. We do not disagree about the

5:20Jay Dyerreverencing.

5:20Indiana BrunnerI cut out there.

5:21Jay DyerYeah. Somebody was calling you. We don't disagree about the reverencing of the relic,

5:26Jay Dyerbut we do disagree about what's going on there and how that happens. We believe in the doctrine of the energies, which is that God's uncreated energies permeate his creation.

5:35Jay DyerAnd in particular, in a special way, the uncreated energies and power of God are present in his

5:42Jay Dyerphysical,

5:43Jay Dyerspatial

5:44Jay Dyerdimensions and locations that are sanctified. So churches are still holy in the New Testament. Peter talks about the holy mountain

5:51Jay Dyerwhere the Lord was transfigured that lets us know that places can still be sanctified.

5:56Jay DyerThere was the pool where people would go in in the gospel of John to be healed, where an angel would stir the waters. There can be,

6:02Jay Dyeryou know, holy pools even.

6:05Jay DyerAnd in the book of acts, you'll notice that, when Paul

6:09Jay Dyerthey take cloths from Paul's body and they heal people and it drives out demons. And this is on the principle of Elijah's bones

6:18Jay Dyerthat resurrect the person who falls into the tomb and they the the body touches his his relics

6:24Jay Dyerand he's resurrected. So we believe that the bodies of the saints are endued with the power of God because we become little arcs of God,

6:32Jay Dyerand they do have that power. Roman Catholics do believe in these things, but they believe in a created grace, which is very different from uncreated grace in the Orthodox Church.

6:42Jay DyerBut, yeah, we do believe that the relics have power to to do these things.

6:46Indiana BrunnerInteresting.

6:47Indiana BrunnerNo. Yeah. And that that's something that is undeniable. You know? Yeah. When you read the scriptures, read an Acts, it's like, oh, a handkerchief is taken away to heal people. Right.

6:56Indiana BrunnerWhere my concern is is when you are presented with these,

7:01Indiana Brunneryou know,

7:02Indiana Brunnervague

7:03Indiana Brunnerstories,

7:04Indiana Brunneryou know, that that there there's not, like, a distinctive

7:07Indiana Brunnerteaching.

7:08Indiana BrunnerYou know? There isn't a formula

7:11Indiana Brunnerthat's presented to us from apostolic witness on

7:15Indiana Brunnerthe on the activity of the spirit through physical objects. We just hear

7:20Indiana Brunnerthat you know? Like, for example, the woman who who just touched Jesus'

7:25Indiana Brunnerclothes. Right. Like, would would I like, is that, like

7:30Indiana Brunneris that something I would formulate doctrine off of, or is that, like like, was it because she actually touched

7:36Indiana Brunnerhis clothing?

7:38Jay DyerDo feel No. That's a great example. That's actually a great example because

7:41Indiana BrunnerOr was it faith?

7:42Indiana BrunnerYou know? It it so is it like like, for example, when Jesus talks to Nicodemus,

7:47Indiana Brunnerhe says the activity of the spirit is like the wind. You know? It goes

7:51Indiana Brunnerjust like the wind. You can't see it, but it it you know, it's powerful, and you can see the effects.

7:55Indiana BrunnerIn the same way, it's like,

7:58Indiana Brunnerhow can we formulate,

8:00Indiana Brunnerlike, solid

8:01Indiana Brunnerconcrete concrete doctrine on these vague,

8:05Indiana Brunneryou know, spiritual experiences that we're seeing,

8:09Indiana Brunneryou know, in the first century church in Acts? You know, the spirit is extremely active.

8:14Indiana BrunnerPeople are being being filled with the spirit.

8:17Indiana BrunnerSo

8:17Indiana BrunnerI guess my concern is, like, are we making, like, false correlations

8:21Indiana Brunnerthere? Is it was it the faith of the people bringing the handkerchief that was where the power was, or was it the actual handkerchief because it was, you know, touched by Peter or or Paul or whoever? Yeah. K. Let me let me

8:33Jay Dyerlet me address that. So Yeah. Yeah. It's not an in our view, it wouldn't be an either or. There's a relationship of synergy that goes on there because, for example, in the gospels, you know, there's a place where it says, and he Christ could not work many miracles there because of their lack of faith. It's not that Christ didn't have the power, it's this it's that God has determined and decided

8:53Jay Dyerto have a reciprocal relationship with human beings and creatures such that he won't if they don't have faith. So the power would not have gone out of him had the woman not had faith. You're right about that.

9:04Jay DyerBut we can know some of the doctrines because if I recall, and I'm going from memory,

9:09Jay Dyerbut I think the word there is dunamis,

9:12Jay Dyerwhich is the Greek that Paul uses when he talks about the energy and power dunamis energeia that's

9:18Jay Dyerat work in him. And he says it is the power of God at work in him to do according to God's purpose.

9:25Jay DyerSo what is that power of God? I mean, is it an actual

9:29Jay Dyeressence of God? Is it the divine persons,

9:33Jay Dyeror is it a divine energy? Well, thankfully, we know because in Corinthians,

9:37Jay DyerPaul says in the in the chapter,

9:40Jay Dyer13 where he's talking about the spiritual gifts, he says that the twelve and thirteen. He says that the spirit apportions

9:47Jay Dyerthe gifts as he wills according to his inner gea. So these are energetic

9:53Jay Dyergifts. So this is a New Testament doctrine

9:55Jay Dyerof the uncreated energies,

9:57Jay Dyerand no church teaches this except the Orthodox Church. There are no churches that teach the uncreated energy doctrine. So relics themselves

10:04Jay Dyerpoint to this principle of divine dunamis and energeia, and it's not just scant examples.

10:11Jay DyerWe have, for example, in Hebrews 13, Paul says that the New Testament church

10:15Jay Dyerhas an altar from which we eat that those who serve in the in the tabernacle

10:20Jay Dyerhave no right to eat from. So Paul calls the New Testament altar

10:24Jay Dyera

10:24Jay Dyeraltar that we eat from.

10:26Jay DyerAnd in the earliest records of the of the Christian church after the death of the apostles, you can read something like the martyrdom of polycarp where they are collecting his relics,

10:34Jay Dyerwhere they are reverencing the cross even from that early of a date. If you go to Rome, you can go into the catacombs,

10:41Jay Dyerand you can see images of Christian iconography.

10:44Jay DyerYou can see altars

10:46Jay Dyerunderneath the city of Rome in the catacombs.

10:49Jay DyerSo the early church had all of these things on this sacramental

10:53Jay Dyerprinciple, which is why, for example, Jesus spits in the dirt, and he makes clay to heal a guy's eyes. I mean, Jesus could have just thought

11:00Jay Dyerand willed the guy's eyes to be healed, but he chose to use stuff, physical matter. That's why Paul says the cross is

11:08Jay Dyerthe instrument of our salvation. That's why in the Orthodox Church, we honor and revere the cross.

11:15Indiana BrunnerAlright. Now, again,

11:17Indiana Brunnerwhere my concern lies is how

11:20Indiana Brunnerdo you set up an objective

11:23Indiana Brunnerformula for use for for putting this into practice? Like,

11:29Indiana Brunnerbecause,

11:30Indiana Brunnerlike like we've already established, like, there isn't necessarily

11:33Indiana Brunneran exact consistency,

11:37Indiana Brunnerwith,

11:38Indiana Brunneryou know, divine

11:39Indiana Brunnerobjects. Right? Like, Jesus heals without dirt. Jesus heals with dirt.

11:43Indiana BrunnerJesus heals

11:45Indiana Brunnerthe, the nobleman's son without even being there, but then he goes physically to Lazarus. So there there's, you know, there's obviously not

11:54Indiana Brunnera lot of consistency there, but I would argue that

11:58Indiana Brunnerthis is like, Jesus is using context or the like, there's context is key in these in these scenarios,

12:05Indiana BrunnerAnd it's not so much

12:07Indiana Brunnerthe actual physical objects. It's, you know,

12:10Indiana Brunnerthe

12:12Indiana BrunnerI'm I'm lost for

12:13Speaker 2words here.

12:13Jay DyerLet's let's think about, in John three. Right? Jesus says that

12:18Jay Dyerthe bronze serpent was,

12:20Jay Dyerput up on a pole in the book of numbers to to heal the Israelites when they were being, bitten by the snakes. And he likens the cross to that very thing. So there's a continuity here of objects having the ability to

12:34Jay Dyerendue be endued with sacramental grace, energetic, dunamis power.

12:39Jay DyerAnd that's not a principle that goes away in the New Testament. And I've already listed, several examples, but there's many more. There's oil is used in the New Testament. Bread and wine are used in the New Testament. These are physical means of grace that

12:52Jay Dyerare premised on the incarnation itself.

12:55Jay DyerJesus took on a human body,

12:58Jay Dyerwhich is the image of God even in a in a created sense.

13:02Jay DyerSo

13:04Jay DyerGod doesn't have a problem with created things, but Protestants tend to.

13:08Speaker 2Hey. Can I add real quick?

13:10Speaker 2This was brought up father Russell made this point. Never thought about this.

13:15Speaker 2That

13:16Speaker 2if you notice Christ's miracles

13:20Speaker 2in the order of time, they become more and more incarnational

13:27Speaker 2that that starts with, like, just, you know, proclaiming

13:32Speaker 2the, you know, you're you're

13:34Speaker 2you are healed.

13:36Speaker 2And then it it each miracle that happens gets more and more incarnational. It's the touching. It's going. It's putting the there's a chronological

13:44Speaker 2order

13:45Speaker 2of then spitting into the mud and putting into the deaf man's ear, which itself is a pedagogical lesson. So he's taking people,

13:56Speaker 2you know, from the power of God's commands to then teach them that it's by touching and becoming one physically with my body that actually heals.

14:08Speaker 2And,

14:09Speaker 2of course,

14:11Speaker 2it's a bothand.

14:13Speaker 2It's not simply

14:14Speaker 2your faith that saves you.

14:17Speaker 2For example,

14:19Speaker 2or vice

14:20Speaker 2versa,

14:21Speaker 2simply the power of Christ

14:24Speaker 2that saves you.

14:26Speaker 2It's for example, in the confession,

14:29Speaker 2if you don't have faith and you're receiving the divine energy of Christ's forgiveness,

14:35Speaker 2he's not gonna force it on you. That your lack of faith can prevent you from receiving the healing graces of of Christ. So I would say it's a bothand. It's not simply,

14:48Speaker 2well, the person just had faith or Christ just said something. It's

14:52Speaker 2incarnational.

14:54Speaker 2It's tangible. It's sacramental,

14:57Speaker 2and it requires one's faith to receive that.

15:02Indiana BrunnerMhmm.

15:09Jay DyerAnother another brief point while you're thinking is

15:12Jay Dyerthat

15:13Jay Dyeryou mentioned, you know, the the guidance of the holy spirit kinda leading us and letting us know the parameters of where this is and isn't appropriate.

15:21Jay DyerYou know, Jesus says that he promised the holy spirit to the church. Right? So he says that in John,

15:27Jay Dyerwhen he sends the spirit in acts two Pentecost, there's the assumption, I believe, that the spirit really will lead and guide the church into all truth. I will not leave you as orphans. I will not forsake you. I will be with you until the end of the age. That promise didn't go away, right, with the first and second century church fathers like Clement,

15:47Jay DyerPolycarp,

15:47Jay DyerIgnatius,

15:49Jay Dyeretcetera.

15:50Jay DyerThey expressed the same faith as what was handed down

15:54Jay Dyerfrom those apostles.

15:55Jay DyerAnd in those writings, we already see the acceptance of relics and the veneration of the bodies of holy men.

16:05Indiana BrunnerWait. Which writings? What were you talking about?

16:06Jay DyerMartyrdom of Polycarp.

16:08Indiana BrunnerOh, okay.

16:13Speaker 2And then also Saint Nick. Did you mention Saint Ignatius and his martyrdom? Yeah.

16:22Jay DyerSo these are people that were taught by John the apostle, for example.

16:26Indiana BrunnerMhmm. Polycarp.

16:34Jay DyerYou there? Anything else you wanna discuss?

16:36Indiana BrunnerI'm

16:37Indiana Brunnerthinking, dude.

16:38Jay DyerOkay. That's fine. I I I mean, there's an I mean, here's another classic.

16:42Jay DyerIf you look at Joshua seven in the Masoretic text,

16:47Jay Dyerit points out that when, Joshua

16:50Jay Dyerin verse six, it says Joshua tore his clothes and he fell

16:54Jay Dyerto the earth on his fake face before the ark of the Lord until evening. He and all the elders of Israel, and they put dust on their heads. And most protestants who are sort of iconoclastic

17:05Jay Dyerwould have tremendous problem with orthodox,

17:09Jay Dyeryou know, prostrating before the cross or bowing and venerating icons and this kind of stuff. And yet, it's a very principle from the Old Testament itself as Joshua prostrates before the ark.

17:19Indiana BrunnerWell

17:20Indiana Brunnerso so, yeah, I've heard that argument

17:23Indiana Brunnerplenty of times, and the context of that is not venerating the ark. It is it is he's lamenting.

17:31Jay DyerWell, then why is he falling down towards the ark?

17:35Indiana BrunnerBecause the ark was

17:37Indiana Brunnerthe

17:38Indiana Brunnerwhere the presence of God was made manifest.

17:40Jay DyerOh, but isn't it a physical

17:42Jay Dyerobject with with with images on it?

17:44Indiana BrunnerExactly.

17:45Indiana BrunnerAnd who and who So

17:46Jay Dyerthey were bowing down to images.

17:48Indiana BrunnerAnd in the new covenant, what is the image of the living god?

17:52Jay DyerIt's the person of the logos,

17:54Jay DyerJesus.

17:55Indiana BrunnerJesus Christ.

17:56Indiana BrunnerAnd so

17:57Jay Dyeryou bow before his physical body?

18:00Indiana BrunnerI would bow I would bow before Jesus in the flesh. Yes.

18:03Jay DyerOkay. Which you know?

18:05Indiana BrunnerGot a got a picture

18:06Indiana Brunnerof him. I mean, wait a minute. Is his body created?

18:12Indiana BrunnerHis, yes, his body was formed in the womb in Mary's womb.

18:15Jay DyerSo you're bowing before a created thing?

18:19Indiana BrunnerSo okay. So are we saying that Jesus is the created

18:22Indiana Brunnerbeing?

18:23Jay DyerThe body of

18:24Speaker 2Jesus is the created. Body is. Absolutely.

18:27Speaker 2Okay.

18:27Indiana BrunnerWell, I yes. I'm bowing before Jesus.

18:30Indiana BrunnerSo okay. Wait. Are we separating Jesus' flesh from his deity? Is that what we're doing? Is that we're this?

18:35Jay DyerNot at all. In fact, if you read the council of Ephesus, this is the very argument that Cyril uses against Nestorius

18:41Jay Dyerto prove the deity of Christ and the real presence in the Eucharist that there's only one divine subject because

18:47Jay Dyerhe says in the in the canons of Ephesus,

18:50Jay Dyeryou if Jesus was a mere man, you would be eating the flesh of a mere man and that be cannibalism.

18:56Jay DyerBut he argues that you're eating the flesh of the god man, and that's what deifies you. So it's the protestants that would reject Ephesus on this point.

19:05Indiana BrunnerYeah. Yeah. I know. I do reject

19:09Indiana Brunnerreal physical presence. I do believe in real presence. The spirit is real,

19:14Indiana Brunnerand that's a that's a whole another topic in and of itself, but which I I don't know if you guys

19:20Jay Dyerare Did Jesus deify the human body that he took on?

19:25Indiana BrunnerYeah. His resurrection body was his glorified

19:28Indiana BrunnerOkay.

19:29Indiana BrunnerBody.

19:30Jay DyerRight. So so god can make matter deiform and transfigured?

19:38Indiana BrunnerYeah. I mean, at the transfiguration,

19:40Indiana Brunnerhe was appearing in his glorified state, you know, after the resurrection.

19:46Indiana BrunnerHe was in his resurrected body.

19:48Jay DyerDoes that to Jesus'

19:50Jay Dyeractual body, or does he do it to our bodies too?

19:54Indiana BrunnerYeah. I believe our resurrection body is going to be, you know, renewed in a you know, something that is distinct from what it is now. Absolutely. Mhmm.

20:03Jay DyerSo when John six talks about you must eat my flesh and drink my blood to have life in you Mhmm. Is that not talking about the Lord's Supper or the Eucharist?

20:13Indiana BrunnerSo I believe John six does not point us to the Lord's table. It points us to the cross.

20:21Indiana BrunnerAnd the Lord's table subsequently points us to the cross. So I'm actually,

20:26Indiana BrunnerI just finished a script.

20:29Indiana BrunnerI'm I'm gonna post a video soon. A lot of people have been, like, in my DMs. I don't know if y'all know the YouTuber. His name's How To Be Christian.

20:37Indiana BrunnerHe posted a video, like, a long time ago, and I made the mistake of arrogantly,

20:43Indiana Brunneryou know you know, saying like, oh, I'm gonna make this reply, whatever whatever.

20:47Indiana BrunnerAnd,

20:49Indiana Brunneryou know, he quote tweeted me for months and months and months and me being a procrastinator

20:55Indiana Brunnerand, you know, whatever. Long story short,

20:59Indiana BrunnerI put it off, but I finally finished the script. I'm gonna make a video on this. So I've been studying through John.

21:05Indiana BrunnerAnd if you take

21:06Indiana Brunnerthe gospel of John and you read it as from the perspective of John, Jesus preaches the gospel with a specific formula.

21:14Indiana BrunnerRight? John six is not this separate chapter that's unrelated to John two or John three or John four or or five.

21:22Indiana BrunnerYou know, Jesus is very consistent in his in his preaching.

21:26Jay DyerYou see What does any of that have to do with the presence in the Eucharist?

21:30Indiana BrunnerIt has to we're talking about John six, are we?

21:34Jay DyerWell, you're talking about the

21:36Jay Dyerthe logical sequence of the gospel of John in this formula.

21:40Jay DyerBut what does that have to do with the real presence in chapter six?

21:43Indiana BrunnerSo what you're saying that John six is, like, proof that

21:46Jay DyerI'm saying it's one example because when he talks about it, it offends a lot of people who walk away. And he says Yeah. Is this a hard teaching?

21:54Jay DyerNow if he's just teaching a spiritual presence, that's identical to the Old Testament conception of the sacrament. So there would be nothing offensive or weird about that. Why didn't he stop them from walking away?

22:04Indiana BrunnerOkay. So

22:07Indiana Brunnerso never in scripture do we see people

22:11Indiana Brunnerunderstanding correctly and then walking away from Jesus. It's always

22:15Jay DyerBut it wouldn't be a hard teaching is what I'm saying.

22:17Indiana BrunnerYeah. Exactly. They they did not understand the spiritual truth.

22:21Jay DyerBut he says this is a hard teaching.

22:24Jay DyerIf it's a if it's the if it's the Old Testament understanding of of this the sacramental presence, which is largely symbolic

22:31Indiana BrunnerIn John six hard

22:33Jay Dyerit's not a hard saying.

22:34Indiana BrunnerIn John six, what was the first statement that made them, quote, grumble?

22:40Jay DyerI don't have it pulled up. What?

22:42Indiana BrunnerIt when he told them This man offers his flesh. No. When he said that he came down from heaven, that was the first thing that made them grumble. Quote. Grum

22:54Indiana BrunnerSo when he's saying this is a hard saying.

22:58Indiana BrunnerThey were confused about the entire

23:01Indiana Brunnerhim coming down from heaven. How are you the bread? How are we gonna eat your flesh? Like, none of this makes sense because they were thinking and let's let's look at the words of Augustine,

23:09Indiana Brunnerfor example. They were thinking carnally.

23:12Jay DyerAugustine taught the real presidents.

23:14Jay DyerWhen he talks about carnally, he's he's let me finish. I've read thousands of pages of Augustine, so let me what he's talking about. He's saying that by eating carnally, it's not that there's no physical eating. They thought they were gonna get a free meal. John six, the grumblers are thinking, you've been feeding people with bread and low with loaves and fish. Where's our free meal? Jesus is saying, I'm not talking about a free meal of loaves and fishes. I'm talking about eating the true bread that comes down from heaven. Guess what? That's the Passover,

23:43Jay Dyerthe Pascha.

23:44Jay DyerAnd if you look at Hebrews 13, the passage that I mentioned earlier,

23:48Jay Dyerwhen Paul we believe Paul wrote this. When Paul talks about the animals that are sacrificed

23:53Jay Dyerby Israel at the tabernacle in the temple,

23:56Jay Dyerhe says that those animals

23:58Jay Dyerdo not have the grace

24:00Jay Dyerto profit those that eat of it, but we have a altar that we eat from,

24:07Jay Dyerand our

24:08Jay Dyerhigh priest offering

24:10Jay Dyeris what does sanctify

24:12Jay Dyerus. And verse 12 says that it is his blood that you're partaking of. So Paul calls it an altar with a sacrifice, and it's the blood of the high priest contrasted

24:22Jay Dyerto the symbolic sacrifices

24:24Jay Dyerof the animals. And you're telling me that, no, Jesus is just teaching the symbolic view of the Old Testament,

24:29Jay Dyerwhich is a contradiction from what Paul's saying in Hebrews 13.

24:32Indiana BrunnerNo. I believe in a real body and real blood that really bled, really died on a real cross at a real point in time.

24:38Jay DyerWhat is is Paul talking about what happened on the cross, or is he talking about the altar that we eat from?

24:43Indiana BrunnerWhen he's talking about the blood of Christ, he is talking about the what happened on the cross because that's where Jesus

24:48Jay DyerI just read to you the passage where he's contrasting what we eat from what the Jews eat.

24:55Indiana BrunnerAlright. Well, let's read it then.

24:56Jay DyerI just read it to you. Hebrews 13. Do you want me to read it again?

25:00Speaker 2Let me pull it up. Let me pull it up.

25:02Indiana BrunnerHebrews 13. Where are we at?

25:05Jay DyerVerse nine.

25:07Indiana BrunnerAlrighty.

25:11Indiana BrunnerAlright. Hold on one sec.

25:14Indiana BrunnerDo

25:21Indiana Brunnernot so verse nine, you said?

25:23Jay DyerYeah.

25:25Indiana BrunnerDo not then do not be led

25:28Indiana Brunneraway by diverse and strange teachings, but it is good for the heart to be strengthened by grace,

25:34Indiana Brunnernot by foods which have not benefited those devoted to them.

25:39Indiana BrunnerWe have an altar from which those who serve the tent have no right to eat.

25:44Indiana BrunnerOkay?

25:45Jay DyerDown to verse 13.

25:47Indiana BrunnerAlright.

25:49Indiana BrunnerTherefore, let us go to him outside the camp and bear

25:53Indiana Brunnerthe reproach he endured.

25:58Jay Dyer13.

26:00Jay DyerNo. Two thirteen. You're skipping the verses that are the most important.

26:04Indiana BrunnerOh, okay. For the bodies of those animals whose blood is brought

26:07Indiana Brunnerinto the holy places by the high priest as a sacrifice for sin are burned outside the camp. So Jesus also suffered outside the gate in order to sanctify the people through his own blood. Therefore, let us go to him outside the camp and bear reproach

26:22Indiana Brunnerbear the reproach he endured.

26:23Jay DyerOkay. And then the next verse?

26:26Indiana BrunnerOkay.

26:27Indiana BrunnerFor here, we have no lasting city, but we seek the city that is to come.

26:33Indiana BrunnerThrough him,

26:35Indiana Brunnerthen let us continually offer up a sacrifice of praise

26:38Indiana Brunnerto God. That is

26:40Jay DyerDo you do you know what do you know what that word is there?

26:44Indiana BrunnerWhat is the word?

26:46Jay DyerEucharistia.

26:47Jay DyerDo you know what most Protestant scholars admit about this passage that that

26:51Indiana BrunnerEucharistia means thanks giving.

26:53Jay DyerIt means offering,

26:55Jay Dyerwhich could be thanksgiving or it could be a ritual service or ceremony.

26:59Jay DyerThe entire passage is about the superiority

27:02Jay Dyerof our eucharistic offering and meal that we eat versus what the Jews eat at the tabernacle, the animals.

27:11Jay DyerOkay. So you're removing the contrast,

27:14Jay Dyerand you're literally you're literally saying that it's equivalent to the Old Testament symbolism.

27:19Indiana BrunnerNo. I'm not. So,

27:22Indiana Brunnerhow does this

27:24Indiana Brunnerwhen you take Jesus' words into consideration, when he says, God is seeking such people to worship him spirit and in truth. And in the new covenant, the law is going to be written on our hearts.

27:36Indiana BrunnerWe're we're transitioning to the truths of the spirit here. So

27:40Jay DyerI don't I don't know what you think that means because

27:43Jay DyerGod gave the church a liturgical worship service that's not recorded in the New Testament,

27:48Jay Dyerand all the apostolic churches have it. So I don't know what you mean by worshiping in spirit and truth because we think that means liturgy because that's how God always was worshiped throughout the Old Testament.

27:58Indiana BrunnerOkay.

27:59Indiana BrunnerSo, I mean, right here, it says, you know, sacrifice of praise to God. That is so he defines it. The fruit of lips

28:05Indiana Brunnerthat acknowledge his name.

28:07Jay DyerIt's in the context now. It's it's in the context,

28:11Jay DyerYou're doing a false either or.

28:12Indiana BrunnerIt means hold on.

28:13Jay DyerNo. It doesn't. It's a false either or. The whole context is eating. And you're saying, no. It's really just about spiritual praising.

28:20Indiana BrunnerHold on. Come on. Go back

28:21Jay Dyerto at the megachurch in the first century? Did Paul go to the megachurch where they were praising with their lips and they didn't have the Eucharist?

28:26Speaker 2And by the way, spirit and truth doesn't mean

28:30Speaker 2not a visible,

28:31Speaker 2their

28:33Speaker 2church.

28:34Speaker 2It means the holy spirit.

28:36Speaker 2Okay. The spirit of truth.

28:39Indiana BrunnerOkay. Yeah. Which is in

28:41Speaker 2a visible

28:42Speaker 2manifest

28:43Speaker 2visibly in a visible body. Alright.

28:47Speaker 2And, like, in the Eucharist

28:49Indiana BrunnerWhen Jesus says God is seeking such people to worship him, what's the context?

28:53Jay DyerYou just keep assuming

28:56Jay Dyerspiritual low low low church interpretation of all these passages, which you've not demonstrated. I'm giving you counterevidence

29:02Jay Dyerto that low church symbolic interpretation,

29:05Jay Dyerand you're just restating the symbolism.

29:08Indiana BrunnerAlright. But you you're not letting me talk. So

29:11Jay DyerBecause you just keep that it's a symbolic thing.

29:15Indiana BrunnerI don't think I've used the word symbol once.

29:18Jay DyerOkay. You called it, quote, spiritual, which in your mind as an evangelical is contrasted to the physical or the flesh. But that's why I keep making the point that that's what well, that's what Paul is contrasting to the Jews who eat at the temple, the tabernacle in a carnal way. He's not saying that the way to eat non carnally is not with your mouth because he says,

29:39Jay Dyerwe eat

29:40Jay Dyerat an altar.

29:42Jay DyerYou don't have an altar. Okay.

29:45Indiana BrunnerSo

29:47Indiana Brunnerwhen Jesus says in John six,

29:49Indiana Brunnerhe says, come to me and you will never hunger. Believe in me, and you will never thirst.

29:55Indiana BrunnerSo when Jesus says that, he says, you will never hunger, and you will never thirst.

29:59Indiana BrunnerWhen you come to him and believe believe in him, why then?

30:03Indiana BrunnerSo I know why I continually partake

30:06Indiana Brunnerof

30:07Indiana Brunnerthe,

30:08Indiana Brunnerthe elements of the bread and the wine. I know why I continually do that. But why

30:15Indiana Brunnerdo you continually

30:17Indiana Brunnerpartake if Jesus says you will never hunger and you will never thirst? Why then, in your tradition, do you have to continually

30:25Jay DyerBecause he says the same type

30:26Indiana BrunnerBro,

30:27Indiana Brunnerhold on. Because

30:30Indiana Brunnerin your theology,

30:32Indiana Brunnerthat sacrifice

30:34Indiana Brunnerdoes not perfect you because sin can still

30:38Indiana Brunnermake you fall away from grace, and, therefore, you need to come back to the throne of grace and reobtain

30:44Indiana Brunnerwhat has been lost.

30:46Indiana BrunnerAnd so when Jesus says, come to me, and you will never hunger and and believe in me and you will never thirst,

30:53Indiana Brunnerright, you're negating those words and

30:55Jay DyerI'm not. I have a different interpretation.

30:57Indiana BrunnerHold on. Then jumping down. Look. He says gnaw on my flesh. That must mean that he's going to start this whole liturgical process of calling him down from heaven into a wafer,

31:08Indiana Brunnerand his blood is made present.

31:10Jay DyerWe're not Roman Catholics. We don't have wafers.

31:13Indiana BrunnerOkay. Well, whatever.

31:15Jay DyerI mean, you say whatever. I mean, Roman Catholics use a Judaized

31:19Jay Dyerbread, so it's that matters.

31:23Speaker 2Alright.

31:26Indiana BrunnerPoint being

31:30Indiana BrunnerI don't know. I mean, we're jumping all over the place here.

31:32Speaker 2Well, this is great because I remember,

31:35Speaker 2this

31:37Speaker 2was brought up once, I think, in a homily.

31:41Speaker 2Well, I went to church once.

31:44Speaker 2I I read some of the bible.

31:46Speaker 2Isn't that enough? You go get them, Jesus.

31:49Speaker 2You go get them, Jesus. Why do I need to go to church again? Why do I need

31:53Jay Dyerto Yeah. This is just, like, an overly simple reading of gospel.

31:57Indiana BrunnerIt's just

31:57Speaker 2a life source.

31:58Jay DyerHey, Jamie. And if you separate yourself from

32:01Speaker 2him in different way like, so, yes, of course, you'll never thirst when you're with me.

32:06Indiana BrunnerYou just have

32:06Speaker 2to kinds of things that separate us

32:10Speaker 2from

32:10Speaker 2God's powers.

32:12Speaker 2Okay.

32:12Indiana BrunnerSo when Paul says that nothing will separate him from the love of Christ, I mean,

32:17Indiana Brunneris that nothing? It's like

32:19Jay DyerYou no. You have to balance passages with other passages. You can't take one verse and squeeze every verse into that verse

32:26Speaker 2because policy of Exactly.

32:27Indiana BrunnerSo I agree.

32:28Jay DyerNo. But agree. But our let me let's let me verse.

32:31Indiana BrunnerI agree. Listen. Hebrews eight John six in a vacuum. You can't read John six.

32:36Jay DyerI didn't take it. I I went immediately to in a Eucharistic passage in Hebrews 13 to help explain it. I didn't take it into vacuum. No. But I argued that it was only John six that proved it.

32:44Indiana BrunnerRead from John's perspective.

32:46Indiana BrunnerConsistent

32:47Jay Dyerknow that you have John's perspective. So

32:49Indiana Brunnerconsistently in John's gospel, gospel, Jesus is very consistent. In John chapter two, he uses the earthly metaphor of a temple being destroyed to represent the spiritual truth of the resurrection of his body.

33:01Indiana BrunnerThe people who were there were confused because they were thinking physically, but the disciples

33:06Jay DyerYeah. But you just keep listen. You're making an assumption.

33:08Indiana BrunnerJohn chapter three.

33:10Jay DyerListen. Stop.

33:11Jay DyerHe uses I know what you're doing. You're you're contrasting spirit. Listen. It's a false dilemma.

33:16Jay DyerYou're contrasting spirits of flesh.

33:18Indiana BrunnerNumber here. Let me talk.

33:19Jay DyerYou're contra I already know what you're doing. It's not a good argument.

33:23Jay DyerYou're contrasting

33:24Indiana BrunnerThat's your opinion.

33:25Jay DyerNo. It's not. It's a gnostic view. I'm trying to tell you. That's why you're out of accord with what the church always taught about this.

33:31Indiana BrunnerWhat what what's what is gnostic about my view? Mike, I see you laughing out there, bro. I I block you,

33:36Jay Dyerbro.

33:38Jay DyerWhat's gnostic is that the passages about spirit are not contrasted

33:43Jay Dyerto body or physicality.

33:46Jay DyerIt's holy spirit, and every protestant does this gnostic

33:50Jay Dyerantimatter reading into these texts. I know I used to be a protestant. When I read Romans, Paul talks about the body, the flesh fighting the spirit. I assumed that that was physical body fighting the holy spirit because somehow,

34:03Jay Dyerquote, immaterial things are better than physical things, and that's agnostic heresy.

34:09Indiana BrunnerOkay. No one is saying that immaterial things are better.

34:13Indiana BrunnerWe're what we're saying is that

34:14Jay Dyerthe flesh you've been saying.

34:16Indiana BrunnerIs fallen and needs renewal. The first coming of cry why is there a second coming of Christ? The first coming of Christ is to deal with our sin. And what did sin do? According to Ezekiel, the soul dies

34:27Indiana Brunnerfrom sin. So the first

34:28Jay Dyercoming of and the soul dies. So I don't know what you're talking about.

34:31Indiana BrunnerWell, yes. Through Adam, all flesh dies because because all sin. So, yes, the flesh and the soul die, but Jesus' first coming was to

34:39Indiana Brunnermake us born again in the spirit and the sin.

34:42Jay DyerAnd that happens through baptism.

34:44Jay DyerWater baptism. Yeah.

34:45Speaker 2Physical.

34:46Speaker 2Okay.

34:47Speaker 2Sure.

34:48Speaker 2It's not

34:48Jay Dyera No. Wait a minute. So you're saying sure. Now there's water that's used as a medium of regeneration.

34:54Jay DyerYou're saying sure to that? You agree with that?

34:56Indiana BrunnerNo. I don't. But you're I mean, you're just shifting or or what argument do you wanna focus on? Do you wanna jump to the No.

35:02Jay DyerI'm making another point that physical things like water are mediums of grace. That's why in Acts two, it says, repent and be baptized for the remission of your sins. And then it says that thousands of them were actually physically water baptized.

35:15Indiana BrunnerOkay. So Cornelius

35:16Indiana Brunnerreceived the spirit without water. I'm not saying

35:18Jay Dyerthat God can't send his holy spirit and do it in that way. But in acts two thirty eight as well as Titus three, it specifies that the labor of baptism is the labor of regeneration. Does Titus three not say that?

35:33Indiana BrunnerRepeat yourself.

35:34Jay DyerDoes Titus three not call the labor of baptism the labor of regeneration?

35:42Indiana BrunnerI'll have to go study that. I'm I'm not

35:43Jay Dyergonna take on And that's the same thing Peter's talking about in Acts two. I'm not saying that the Holy Spirit can't move outside of the presence of water, but the normative means by which regeneration occurs is through physical water. So throughout all of this, your war is against physical objects,

36:03Jay Dyerand all of your interpretations are that somehow, quote, spirit is antimatter.

36:07Indiana BrunnerOkay.

36:09Indiana BrunnerAlright.

36:10Indiana BrunnerGot it. That's your interpretation of what my position is.

36:14Jay DyerIs that not your position?

36:15Indiana BrunnerBack to what I was saying.

36:17Indiana BrunnerJohn three.

36:18Jay DyerSo you're not gonna address any verses. You're just gonna do a walk through of what I already addressed.

36:24Indiana BrunnerOkay. Yeah. Yes. Because you're you're shifting the you're shifting the goalposts.

36:28Jay DyerNo. Bringing up further examples is not moving the goalpost. That's a different fallacy.

36:33Indiana BrunnerNo. You gotta let me I we're we're I told you.

36:35Jay DyerYou're all you're walking through. So you're when you say, okay. Jesus' body

36:40Jay Dyeris, the true temple, and he destroyed the other temple. That doesn't help your case. Jesus' body is physical.

36:47Indiana BrunnerNo. I yes. I agree. The physical body of Christ was necessary,

36:52Indiana Brunnerwas absolutely

36:54Indiana Brunnernecessary,

36:55Indiana Brunnerbecause

36:56Indiana Brunnerjust as sin came into the world

36:58Indiana Brunnerthrough the flesh, it had to be destroyed in the flesh. Alright.

37:02Jay DyerWhat How does this prove your low view of sacraments?

37:08Indiana BrunnerI I don't have a low view of sacraments.

37:10Jay DyerDon't have By definition, you literally do.

37:12Indiana BrunnerI believe that communion is worship.

37:14Jay DyerIs is water baptism regeneration?

37:18Indiana BrunnerI I believe that I am regenerated by the holy spirit

37:21Indiana Brunnerprior

37:22Indiana Brunnerto water baptism.

37:23Jay DyerThen you have a low view of the sacraments by definition. No.

37:26Indiana BrunnerI believe water baptism is worship,

37:29Jay Dyerand it is acceptable for the labor of regeneration according to Titus three five, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy, he saved us through the washing of the labor regeneration.

37:40Indiana BrunnerYeah. And the and he Peter describes the water as as the what's not doing the washing there.

37:47Indiana BrunnerIt's the spirit

37:48Jay DyerNo. He says that it's not washing your body. He doesn't say it's not water.

37:52Indiana BrunnerNo. He says, yeah, not by a washing of dirt off your body.

37:55Jay DyerIt's So not taking a bath. Water baptism is not a bath.

37:59Indiana BrunnerSo he's making a distinction that the

38:01Jay Dyerwater baptism not It's

38:05Jay Dyerwater baptism. Do you think when you're taking a bath at night that that's the same thing as a baptism?

38:10Jay DyerNo. No. So that's what Peter's talking about. He's not saying that there's not a presence of the Holy Spirit to regenerate you at water baptism.

38:18Indiana BrunnerI didn't say that the Holy Spirit was not present in baptism.

38:21Jay DyerYou said that it's not regeneration.

38:23Jay DyerYou just said that.

38:26Indiana BrunnerChristian is regenerated by the Holy Spirit through faith prior to baptism.

38:30Jay DyerYou're saying that, but the Bible doesn't say that. It continually links it to the celebration of the sacrament.

38:36Indiana BrunnerShows us that. Yeah. It doesn't use that exact wording, but it should.

38:39Jay DyerIt doesn't, Mike. Examples that you won't talk about literally link it to baptism.

38:44Indiana BrunnerCornelius. I mean, dude, I mean, you say, oh, but that's just an exception. Like,

38:47Jay Dyerthat's No. It's not. The holy spirit can move to

38:51Jay Dyertake The holy spirit can move god.

38:53Indiana BrunnerThe word you're taking the work of God and saying, no. That's an exception. The thief on the cross

38:57Jay DyerNo. I'm not. I'm dealing with all of the passages,

39:00Jay Dyerand that's that's prior you. The thief on the cross is prior to the institution of water baptism in acts two as the normative means. I already said normative.

39:09Jay DyerI didn't deny the possibility of the holy spirit doing and moving stop interrupting me. You're new to all this, man. Why are you interrupting me?

39:16Indiana BrunnerMake the distinction of normative means of grace versus

39:20Jay DyerOkay. So alright. We're done.

39:21Indiana BrunnerI'm when does that when does it make that distinction?

39:24Jay DyerSo you okay. You literally think that using terminology

39:27Jay Dyerthat helps to clarify is not in the bible itself. Is the word trinity in the bible?

39:33Indiana BrunnerNo. But

39:33Jay Dyerit's So that's a double standard. You're using the double standard.

39:37Indiana BrunnerIt's perfectly laid out. No. I'm just saying, like, where are you establishing that

39:42Jay DyerYou said that there's no exam No. All the examples I'm giving you, Acts two where it says repent and be baptized for their mission of sins.

39:51Jay DyerAnd then they're water baptized in Acts two.

39:52Indiana BrunnerRight? And then then but and then it says,

39:55Indiana BrunnerJohn baptized with water, but

39:58Jay DyerThat's the Old Testament.

39:59Speaker 3They did it.

40:00Jay DyerThey're what do you know

40:01Indiana BrunnerWe're we're looking

40:02Jay DyerWhen is when is Jesus' baptism instituted?

40:07Indiana BrunnerWhen

40:09Indiana Brunnerhe sends the Holy Spirit?

40:10Jay DyerNo. At the end of the gospel when he says go forth and baptize all the nations.

40:15Jay DyerThat's when he institutes it.

40:17Indiana BrunnerBut what did he tell them before

40:18Jay Dyerhe Stop interrupting me. He said, shut up. He says it is a Trinitarian

40:23Jay Dyerritual action,

40:25Jay Dyerand that's what they do in Acts. Matthew 28 is talking about water baptism.

40:30Jay DyerYou didn't even know that.

40:38Indiana BrunnerNo. I know what Matthew 28 he

40:40Jay Dyerhe No. I you said baptism was instituted at Pentecost. You said Acts two. It's Matthew 28, not Acts two.

40:47Indiana BrunnerOh, okay. Yeah. Alright. I'm I'm I was confused by your your question.

40:51Jay DyerThe the obvious question that everyone should know, when was baptism instituted?

40:56Jay DyerYou were confused by that? How would you be confused by a basic question?

41:01Indiana BrunnerAlright.

41:02Indiana BrunnerI I the I'm sorry.

41:04Speaker 2It's a question about normative means. It's established then, so you can't

41:10Speaker 2appeal to cases,

41:13Speaker 2prior to the institution of baptism

41:15Speaker 2as

41:17Speaker 2possibly normative means. Now as Jay pointed out that

41:21Speaker 2can God

41:23Speaker 2send the Holy Spirit and

41:25Speaker 2save somebody apart from the normative mean? Sure. But Protestants

41:29Speaker 2always take

41:30Speaker 2an exception of the rule.

41:31Jay DyerLet's say To be the example.

41:33Speaker 2To be the example, then I can do that. It's an exact it's the same analogy of saying,

41:38Speaker 2well, could I be saved or a terminal cancer without going to a specialist in the hospital? It's like, yeah. But okay. Maybe there was a case or two where that happened. Like, why in the world would you build

41:50Speaker 2a whole therapy on not going to get healed because you could be healed apart from the normative means? That's Protestantism for you. Crazy. It's like, well, even if you found those cases

42:01Speaker 2that were exception to the rules after

42:04Speaker 2the institution of baptism,

42:07Speaker 2you're gonna base a rule on the exception to the rule and put yourself in that sort of danger. That just seems crazy to me.

42:17Indiana BrunnerCall me crazy.

42:18Jay DyerOkay. We will.

42:21Indiana BrunnerNo. Yeah. And I and I I understand that. Like, we're in agreement that we disagree with each other. You know, I'm just trying to, know, have a Well no. It's been a great conversation, and and it's Yeah. Yeah. So and I I apologize that we're getting a little raw.

42:34Jay DyerThat's cool. Maybe we can shift a little bit because we're gonna disagree there. More maybe a more fundamental question would be,

42:41Jay Dyerhow do you know what the word of God is

42:44Jay Dyerin terms of the canon of scripture, and what is your basis for it?

42:48Indiana BrunnerThe

42:49Indiana Brunnercanon conundrum,

42:50Indiana BrunnerProtestant nightmare.

42:54Indiana BrunnerYeah. So, I mean, the

42:59Indiana BrunnerI would say that the recognition

43:01Indiana Brunnerof infallibility

43:02Indiana Brunnerdoes not require the possession of infallibility.

43:05Indiana BrunnerThe simple historical fact,

43:09Indiana Brunnerand this is a historical

43:10Indiana Brunnerfact that I think we should all agree on, is that neither Jewish reception

43:16Indiana Brunnerof the Old Testament nor early Christian reception of the scriptures happened through means of infallibility,

43:24Indiana Brunnerperiod.

43:24Jay DyerI mean, you just contradict yourself within, like, three sentences. You just said that. You just said

43:29Indiana BrunnerPick apart my statement, please.

43:31Jay DyerThe first thing you said, which made was confused. I don't know what you mean by infallibility can happen through what did you say? How did you phrase it?

43:38Indiana BrunnerI said recognition

43:40Indiana Brunnerof infallibility.

43:41Indiana BrunnerMeaning, recognizing

43:43Indiana BrunnerGod's word

43:45Indiana Brunnerdoes not require

43:46Indiana Brunnerpossession

43:47Indiana Brunnerof infallibility.

43:48Indiana BrunnerMeaning, that I have Okay.

43:50Jay DyerBeen So so Matthew so Matthew so Matthew might not have written Matthew's gospel?

43:57Indiana BrunnerI'm not answering that. That's a that's a

43:59Jay DyerYou're not gonna answer it.

44:02Indiana BrunnerI it's like like, I don't understand. I I don't understand how to answer that question.

44:07Jay DyerWell well, it's an important question because it underdoes the assumptions of your argument. So why would I don't understand why you wouldn't at least attempt to answer it.

44:16Indiana BrunnerWell, it's a topic that I'm not well studied on.

44:19Jay DyerOkay. I'm not Well, apostolic authorship is very important for inclusion

44:24Jay Dyerinto the canon. And Matthew's gospel doesn't tell you that Matthew the disciple wrote it. So guess where you get that knowledge from?

44:33Indiana BrunnerTell me. Tradition.

44:36Indiana BrunnerGot it.

44:37Jay DyerSo you're relying on tradition.

44:39Jay DyerIs that also

44:41Jay Dyerperhaps wrong?

44:43Indiana BrunnerAlright. Well,

44:45Indiana BrunnerActs seventeen eleven.

44:46Jay DyerSo you're not and so you're a to quoque fallacy?

44:51Jay DyerYou're asking me a question when I ask you a question?

44:54Jay DyerYeah. That's to quoque fallacy.

44:57Indiana BrunnerAlright. Whatever.

44:59Jay DyerAlright. Whatever. Okay. Acts, sexuality think fallacies matter? I don't understand why why you just blow past this.

45:06Jay DyerI ask you a question, and you say, I'm not gonna answer it, and then I'm gonna you're gonna ask me a question. That's called a tu quoque fallacy, and then you say whatever.

45:14Indiana BrunnerOkay.

45:15Indiana BrunnerWell, ask the question again.

45:17Indiana BrunnerWhat

45:18Indiana Brunnerare we saying here? I I told you I'm not a an expert on how we have determined

45:23Indiana Brunnerhow math that Matthew wrote the gospel of Matthew.

45:25Jay DyerThe only way is through tradition.

45:27Indiana BrunnerI'm gonna speak on something I'm not an expert in because I will make myself out to be a fool, and I don't intend on I don't intend on doing that. And I see all you guys laughing in in the in you know, out there. Why don't you come up here and, you know, tell me why we have every single book of the bible? You know?

45:42Jay DyerAlright. So look. We're let's just stop there because I don't want us to go in a bad direction. We can go and study and read, and you can look into the question if you want. And maybe we could come back, and we we don't I don't want this to go in, like, a sour direction because we Well You apologize. You're you're a good dude. Go ahead.

45:58Indiana BrunnerI wanna say I wanna say one thing. Sure. Alright.

46:01Indiana BrunnerGuys, come on. Like, it y'all hurt.

46:03Jay DyerJust don't don't worry about the chat.

46:05Indiana BrunnerYou can't look at you can't look at the chat. Go ahead and say what you're gonna

46:07Speaker 2look at. Just don't

46:09Indiana BrunnerYeah.

46:10Indiana BrunnerAlright. Well,

46:12Indiana Brunnerso how

46:13Indiana Brunnerdo we determine what scripture is? And my simple answer, and I know this isn't gonna satisfy

46:19Indiana Brunnerthe people who are listening, but

46:21Indiana Brunnerpro so okay. Say you have something you're proposing something to be the word of God. Say, look. I have this is I'm calling this the gospel of Matthew. Matthew wrote it. It's the word of God.

46:34Indiana BrunnerAnd I've, you know, I've never seen it before. I I haven't studied or anything.

46:38Indiana BrunnerWhat's my first, you know, line of action?

46:42Indiana BrunnerThat that's why I was pointing to Acts seventeen eleven. So you have proposed

46:46Jay DyerBut you're begging the question because we don't know yet that Acts is actually part of the scriptures.

46:50Indiana BrunnerOkay.

46:51Indiana BrunnerI'm just using what happened in acts as an example of what could be done to determine what is the word of god.

46:58Jay DyerBut that example is

47:00Jay Dyerassuming the thing in question because we don't know yet that that's even allowed in the canon. Maybe acts maybe Luke you know about, like, the pseudonymous

47:09Jay Dyergospels and the the, you know, gnostic gospels, the false gospels. Right? So the progosm

47:14Indiana BrunnerThere are objective ways in in which we have found that them to be unreliable. And then they were

47:19Jay DyerI'm not I understand that, but I'm just pointing out that just because there's a name mentioned like Luke or even if it said Matthew,

47:26Jay Dyerlike, it doesn't tell you that that's authentically

47:30Jay Dyerthe disciple of Jesus. It might be, you

47:32Speaker 2know Great.

47:33Indiana BrunnerWe're off topic. Wait. We're getting off topic.

47:35Jay DyerSo No. It's not on topic. It's perfectly on topic.

47:38Indiana BrunnerOkay. We have pro we have proposed

47:40Indiana Brunnerword of God. This is proposed to be the speech of God. You take what you know to be the speech of God and measure it against what is proposed to be the speech of God. You have you have the apostles

47:52Indiana Brunnercoming to the church in Berea

47:55Indiana Brunnerand

47:56Indiana Brunnerpreaching the gospel to them.

47:58Jay DyerYeah. Then this doesn't work as an example because

48:00Indiana BrunnerThis is the word of God.

48:02Jay DyerDon't know that acts is the word of God. So you're using a thing in question, so it's begging the question. Can I give you an example of what I'm talking about?

48:11Jay DyerIf you scroll down on my wall, you'll see an old tweet that I retweeted called Protestantism and sola scriptura refuted. And what I do there is I use the Baptist textual scholar Lee McDonald's list

48:22Jay Dyerof the debates about the canon

48:24Jay Dyerand the different church father lists into fourth, fifth, sixth century. And you'll notice that that whether it's the New Testament or the Old Testament,

48:32Jay Dyerthere's variation

48:33Jay Dyeramongst all of these different lists.

48:36Jay DyerSo what I wanna know is whether it's Origen or whether it's

48:40Jay DyerChrysostom or whether it's Athanasius'

48:42Jay Dyerlist or Cyril of Jerusalem's list, how do you, as a Protestant, know or what do we do to determine amongst these church fathers who are not Protestant,

48:51Jay Dyerwhich one is the right list?

48:55Indiana BrunnerExactly what I was saying. You know, take the what we know to be the speech of god, which

49:00Jay Dyerwe You're using the book of acts, and the book of acts is not known yet to be the word of god. That's the thing in question.

49:07Indiana BrunnerWell, I mean

49:13Indiana Brunnerokay. So how how do we know? I mean, what the earliest

49:19Indiana Brunnertestimony of the church I mean, the the apostles themselves handed these letter letters off to someone.

49:25Indiana BrunnerRight?

49:26Jay DyerYes.

49:27Jay DyerYeah.

49:28Jay DyerSo Yeah. But you you know we don't have autographa. Right?

49:32Indiana BrunnerNo. Yes. Yes. I know. I know.

49:34Jay DyerOkay. So

49:36Jay Dyerhow do we know the authentic from the nonauthentic ones?

49:42Jay DyerDo you know what the earliest list of canon of the canon is?

49:47Indiana BrunnerThe earliest?

49:48Indiana BrunnerNot necessarily.

49:49Indiana BrunnerBut I do know that there are lists prior to, you know, the the counsel that everybody loves to,

49:56Indiana Brunnerreference in, like, what, 03/8383

49:59Indiana Brunneror something like that. There there were plenty of lists prior to that.

50:03Jay DyerI don't know about plenty, but there are some.

50:06Indiana BrunnerA handful. A handful. And funny enough, most of them were closer to the pros and canon.

50:11Jay DyerAnd No. That is completely false. You're totally wrong.

50:15Jay DyerI mean, I've got them pulled up. Do wanna look do you wanna walk through them and see that that's false?

50:20Indiana BrunnerNo. I I never I didn't say they were exactly, but

50:23Jay DyerNo. They're not even close to the Protestant canon.

50:26Jay DyerOkay.

50:27Jay DyerThat's just simply not true. I've got canon 85 of the apostolic canons pulled up right here. This is one of the earliest. The other earliest is the canons of Laodicea.

50:36Jay DyerAnd the canon that's listed in the apostolic canons from the three hundreds,

50:40Jay Dyerit includes, uh-oh, the deuterocanon.

50:42Jay DyerThat is not the Protestant canon.

50:44Indiana BrunnerOkay. So you got one?

50:46Jay DyerNo. This is not one. This is canon law, church law for

50:50Jay Dyerthe church in general

50:52Jay Dyerhaving a normative canon that includes the duo.

50:55Indiana BrunnerWhere is this originating from? This is just church everyone in general is agreeing on it?

51:00Jay DyerMuch of the church that follows the apostolic canons. Correct. It's the earliest it's the let me finish. It's the earliest let me finish. It's the earliest collection

51:09Jay Dyerof canon law in the churches in the three hundreds.

51:12Indiana BrunnerOkay. And then you have

51:14Indiana Brunnerplenty of testimony

51:16Indiana Brunnerafter that saying that the deuterocanon

51:19Indiana Brunneris second tier canon, a distinct,

51:22Indiana Brunnergood for edification,

51:24Indiana Brunnerbut not for faith and doc

51:26Jay DyerNo. That's not true. What does Athanasius say that the the deuterocanon is for?

51:30Indiana BrunnerI don't know.

51:31Jay DyerHe says it's for the catechumens.

51:34Indiana BrunnerYeah. Well, I haven't I haven't studied that, so I can't speak on that.

51:36Jay DyerOkay. So that refutes what you just said.

51:39Indiana BrunnerOne guy.

51:40Jay DyerNo. Athanasius Athanasius is not just one guy. What is the what is what is Saint Augustine what does Augustine say about the? Deuterocanon?

51:47Indiana BrunnerHe he he affirmed the deuterocanon.

51:49Jay DyerRight. So is that now two guys?

51:51Indiana BrunnerWhat about Jerome?

51:53Indiana BrunnerWhat about

51:53Speaker 2Cyril Jerusalem?

51:54Jay DyerWait a minute. No. Cyril Jerusalem Cyril Jerusalem does not have the Protestant canon. He doesn't help your case. You have one that. No. He doesn't. You have one church father,

52:03Jay DyerJerome. Why are we supposed to follow Jerome?

52:05Indiana BrunnerIn Serial Jerusalem.

52:06Jay DyerNo. He doesn't. He doesn't have your canon.

52:08Indiana BrunnerBasically, he calls

52:09Jay DyerHe does not have the Protestant canon.

52:11Indiana BrunnerYeah. Yeah. He included Baruch. Yeah.

52:14Jay DyerThat's not the Protestant canon, and he I don't think he has revelation if I recall.

52:20Jay DyerSo how does how does serial Jerusalem up your case?

52:22Indiana BrunnerTalk about Old Testament. That's the Old No. No. No.

52:24Jay DyerIt's not just the Old Testament. It's both the New Testament and the Old Testament. It's the canon.

52:28Indiana BrunnerI'm well, I that's what we're that's what where we differ here.

52:31Jay DyerWhat? That you're wrong?

52:34Indiana BrunnerNo. The, Old Testament. That's what I'm talking about.

52:36Jay DyerNo. I'm talking about the canon. That's not just the Old Testament.

52:42Jay DyerThere's differing New Testament lists. Athanasius

52:45Jay Dyergoes to Rome to convince Rome of Hebrews and Revelation

52:48Jay Dyerbecause they didn't think it was canonical.

52:50Jay DyerCyril of Jerusalem does not have Revelation in his canon.

52:54Jay DyerOkay.

52:55Jay DyerSo that doesn't help your case.

52:56Indiana BrunnerI'm I'm aware that there was debate

52:58Jay Dyeron Okay. So how do we know which one's right? Who would follow? That's my question.

53:03Indiana BrunnerAgain, back to what I said earlier. You test what is proposed to be the speech of god with what is known to be the speech of god.

53:08Jay DyerAnd you're referring to the book of Acts, which is in question.

53:12Indiana BrunnerOkay. Alright. Well,

53:14Indiana BrunnerI I feel like I'm not really getting myself anywhere. But let me ask you. How do you determine

53:21Indiana Brunnerwhat is the canon of scripture?

53:22Jay DyerWell, for the Orthodox Church, the highest authority is an ecumenical council.

53:27Jay DyerOkay. So it's Are you gonna

53:28Indiana BrunnerA bunch of dudes that just decide.

53:31Jay DyerNo. Not a bunch of dudes. It's the church

53:34Jay Dyerfathers with apostolic succession who have the gift the holy spirit given to them. Does Paul say that the holy spirit is transferred in the laying on of hands to Timothy?

53:43Indiana BrunnerYeah. Absolutely. Oh, but you

53:44Jay Dyerthink that that's not true because you don't believe in absolute succession?

53:48Indiana BrunnerNot in the way you define it. No.

53:50Jay DyerI just said what happens in in the in the in Timothy. So what do you mean?

53:55Indiana BrunnerYeah. Paul also says that after he leaves the church,

53:59Indiana Brunnerfalse Christians will infiltrate the church successfully and draw away

54:02Jay Dyerthe disciples. Say successfully. The church No. He does. No. He He does not. He says that they will enter the church.

54:08Indiana BrunnerWill draw away the disciples.

54:09Jay DyerDraw away? That doesn't mean they destroy the church. The gates of hell cannot prevail against the church.

54:13Indiana BrunnerNever said that never said the gates of hell prevailed.

54:17Indiana BrunnerBut what I'm saying If

54:18Jay Dyerthey infiltrate and subvert the church, then the gates of hell prevailed.

54:21Indiana BrunnerYou have this line

54:22Jay DyerNow you're changing it, so you don't wanna address it. You'll throw stuff out.

54:24Indiana BrunnerIs this line of succession that you have, is this list of men, is that an infallible list?

54:30Jay DyerIt's it's not a question of infallibility.

54:32Jay DyerList.

54:34Jay DyerIt's not a question of infallibility

54:36Jay Dyerif I know that the testament know it's stop interrupting me.

54:40Jay DyerAthanasius says, for example, that at the council of Nicaea, the holy spirit spoke through those fathers. Right? So I don't have to accord to

54:50Jay Dyerthe councils

54:51Jay Dyerwhen they state something about the scriptures, the same status of divine revelation. I would say divine revelation is infallible,

54:59Jay Dyerbut I don't believe that divine revelation is restricted to written texts, and you do. But when when Peter and Paul preach, they call it the word of God. Do you believe that it's only written, or do believe that the preaching is also written?

55:09Indiana BrunnerI believe yeah. The apostolic

55:11Indiana Brunnertestimony, oral written was the word of God.

55:13Jay DyerOh, okay. So is there an oral, thing that's passed on?

55:18Indiana BrunnerNo. We are not we are not told that oral tradition would be passed on infallibly. No.

55:22Jay DyerNo. Is it well, whether you think it's infallible or not, is it passed on

55:25Indiana Brunnerat all?

55:27Indiana BrunnerOh, absolutely. Oral tradition is always passed on.

55:31Jay DyerOkay. And was what about one of those things being the authorship of Matthew?

55:38Indiana BrunnerLike I said, that's not something I'm

55:40Jay DyerBecause it refutes you. Because it refutes the point you just made.

55:43Indiana BrunnerWhat what point, and how does it refute the point?

55:46Jay DyerIt's apostolic tradition that Matthew the disciple wrote the gospel of Matthew.

55:53Jay DyerOkay.

55:54Jay DyerThat refutes the point you just made.

55:56Indiana BrunnerWhat what and

55:58Indiana Brunnerwhat point like, what did I say that's being refuted here?

56:02Jay DyerIf you can deny the oral tradition and that it we don't we're not bound by that, then I'm not bound by the claim of the church that Matthew disciple wrote Matthew's gospel, and I can throw out Matthew

56:15Jay Dyeron your position.

56:17Indiana BrunnerThat alright. That yeah.

56:18Jay DyerThat's Okay. Well, there we go. Good job. Then and that's where Protestant leads to chopping up the Protestant leads. That that's what Luther did, by way. When Luther

56:25Speaker 2And and notice too the confusion as we always see,

56:29Speaker 2the two categories

56:30Speaker 2between normative,

56:32Speaker 2what's binding,

56:33Speaker 2and,

56:34Speaker 2an epistemic category of infallibility.

56:38Speaker 2So,

56:39Speaker 2Saint Paul says

56:42Speaker 2you're too whole. He's speaking about normative.

56:45Speaker 2Right?

56:46Speaker 2So it's a separate question,

56:48Speaker 2and we can answer that whether the oral teachings and the written teachings are infallible or not. But that's a separate question. Is it binding on you? Do you have to hold it?

57:00Speaker 2And Saint Paul obviously says you do.

57:03Speaker 2I have to

57:04Indiana Brunnerbe bound to a line of succession?

57:07Jay DyerYes. You do.

57:08Speaker 2Yeah. That's the oral teaching. That's what Saint Paul just said.

57:12Jay DyerAnd I gave you one example of this oral teaching, which was that Matthew, the disciple, wrote the gospel of Matthew. And you said, no. I don't have to believe that. And fine. Throw it out.

57:20Indiana BrunnerNo. Okay. See, you're you cut me off.

57:22Jay DyerNo. That's what you said.

57:23Indiana BrunnerThat's not what I

57:24Jay DyerIt is what you said. What are you talking about? People people just heard you say it. Fine. I don't accept that.

57:28Indiana BrunnerThat's not what I said.

57:29Jay DyerWhat what did you say?

57:31Indiana BrunnerOkay. You said, oh, so yeah. You know? So you can just throw out the idea that that Matthew wrote the gospel, and I was like, yeah. That's what you just and then you cut me off. You're like, Lucy, he said, yeah.

57:41Indiana BrunnerI mean, you you cut me off. You're putting words in my mouth.

57:43Jay DyerNo. I'm not. I'm stating Yeah.

57:44Indiana BrunnerAnd then you say, oh, just like Martin Luther cut books out of the Bible. Martin Luther actually never took books out of

57:49Jay Dyerthe Bible. He actually did. He removed the New Yorkan. Printed edition. No. In

57:53Jay Dyerthe German New Testament,

57:55Jay Dyerhe changed words. And then when he translated

57:57Jay Dyerhis bible, it does not have the deuterocanon. I've read six of Luther's books.

58:01Indiana BrunnerIn his first edition of his print of his

58:02Jay DyerWho cares about his first edition if the tradition later on is that he says, I wanna punch Moses' teeth out, and I don't care about the law. And he doesn't believe he says that Maccabees is not scripture because it doesn't preach the word of God and includes prayers for the dead.

58:18Indiana BrunnerYeah. I agree.

58:21Jay DyerOn what basis?

58:24Indiana BrunnerThat it well, first off, that it doesn't it doesn't align with,

58:28Indiana Brunnerthe testimony of scripture.

58:29Jay DyerAgain, begging the question. The question is, how do you know what's in scripture? And you're saying that Matthew bez says in scripture because it doesn't align with scripture.

58:38Indiana BrunnerOkay. Well, scripture isn't one book, so there's that.

58:41Jay DyerThat's totally

58:43Jay Dyertotally dishonest. Get out of here with that nonsense.

58:45Jay DyerMike?

58:56Jay DyerMike, unmute.

59:00Speaker 3Hey, Jay. What's up?

59:01Jay DyerYes, sir.

59:02Speaker 3Oh, wait. Did did Indiana get booted?

59:05Jay DyerYep.

59:06Speaker 3Oh, man. Okay. Well, I was

59:08Speaker 3I was just gonna say, I mean, I don't know how, you came to, you know, get him in a space because he had agreed to debate with myself being moderated by Jake about,

59:18Speaker 3you know, sola scriptura,

59:20Speaker 3his hatred of Mary. So I was just gonna, you know, warn you about the type of guy that he is.

59:25Speaker 3And I came in a little late, so I guess you guys were having a good discussion and that it morphed into something.

59:30Jay DyerOh, we've already gone for an hour. So it's I gave him one out. I gave another out.

59:34Speaker 3Yeah. He's he's a total dishonest actor. Uh-huh. If he doesn't have chat GPT or his notes in front of him, he can't talk.

59:40Indiana BrunnerYep.

59:41Speaker 3The dude is a total snake in the grass, but, you know, kudos

59:45Speaker 3to you for having him on. He he literally blocks

59:47Speaker 3or,

59:48Speaker 3you know, runs away from any other debate. So I'm glad to see that at least you spoke to him.

59:53Jay DyerWell, he also says that I'm not in a position to debate, but he's ready to debate. So

59:57Speaker 3No. He's he's in the I don't even understand how anyone who could hold sola scriptura can give an interpretation of what he believes

1:00:05Speaker 3a a passage from, scripture means. It doesn't make any sense to me. But, you know, I I enjoyed your talk with him as I enjoy pretty much a lot of things that you do.

1:00:15Speaker 3So I just wanted to say that, and I wish he was on here because I did I did challenge him to a boxing match. And, I said that if he won, I would leave the Catholic church and go to whatever church he,

1:00:28Speaker 3he worships at, quote, unquote, worships.

1:00:29Jay DyerI actually was thinking too, because he initially,

1:00:33Jay Dyerbefore he apologized, had lied about what I said, and then he he apologized. So I'm not gonna go that route. But I wanted to offer a boxing match as well. I'm not kidding.

1:00:41Speaker 3No. The dude the dude says that he finally oh, I finally, you know, have a script to debate, how to be Christian. That's been easily six months in the works. I don't I don't know of anybody who needs six months

1:00:53Speaker 3to prepare for a simple debate on either a space or a YouTube.

1:00:58Speaker 3He's he's full of he's full of BS. I mean, he posts pictures of, you know, the Virgin Mary on the shoe,

1:01:05Speaker 3you know, of people with with the title saying, oh, look at this shit that I stepped in. I just I can't stand him, and I wish he would have been here so

1:01:12Speaker 2I can confront him in person.

1:01:13Indiana BrunnerLord have mercy.

1:01:14Speaker 2I can't imagine on judgment day

1:01:19Speaker 2what Christ is gonna

1:01:22Speaker 2He's not Christ is actually gonna say to people who I mean, if you diss somebody's mother, that's worse than dissing.

1:01:29Speaker 2Well, come on in anyways.

1:01:33Speaker 3Anyway Oh, yeah. I totally thought that was my way to life. But, again, thank you for doing what you do. And

1:01:38Jay DyerWell, I appreciate that. Well, I mean, you're welcome to stay, and we can have a conversation about Rome if you want.

1:01:43Speaker 3I I

1:01:44Speaker 3I defer to someone better than me. Obviously, I'm not gonna gonna get into that. But Okay.

1:01:49Jay DyerFair enough.

1:01:50Speaker 3Yeah. But always, again, appreciate you, and I'll I'll I'll see you soon. I'll I'll keep listening. I'll stay for only about five more minutes.

1:01:56Speaker 2Okay.

1:01:59Jay DyerWelcome, everybody. We had a good conversation there for over an hour. If you would like to support the stream, you can do so via the super chat function there. Super chats are also, pinned

1:02:08Jay Dyerthere. You can do it also natively with YouTube. If

1:02:12Jay Dyeryou would like to call in, you can call in through the x space right here.

1:02:17Jay DyerHere is the x space link to call in.

1:02:22Jay DyerAnd

1:02:24Jay Dyerlet's do a little brief, look at this before we go to the next, person in line. Looks like we got quite a few people in line. So,

1:02:33Jay Dyerthis is Lee McDonald's book where he lists the

1:02:37Jay Dyercanon,

1:02:38Jay Dyerfrom various

1:02:40Jay Dyerold and new testament list from various church fathers.

1:02:44Jay DyerI recommend every protestant who's interested in this question to read Lee McDonald's book because it's one of the best,

1:02:50Jay Dyeras well as f f Bruce's book, kennel scripture, that admits from the evangelical perspective the absolutely

1:02:56Jay Dyerindispensable

1:02:57Jay Dyeraspect of church tradition

1:03:00Jay Dyerin determining not just the canon,

1:03:03Jay Dyerbut the authenticity

1:03:04Jay Dyerand authorship of the various manuscript copies. This is so key because so many

1:03:10Jay Dyerprotestants,

1:03:12Jay Dyerwhen they hear this argument, they think, oh, you're just saying that I need infallible decisions to know what the bible is. No. No. No. It's not just a question of normative authority about a binding canon.

1:03:21Jay DyerIt's also a question about the authenticity

1:03:24Jay Dyerand authorship

1:03:25Jay Dyerof disputed texts

1:03:27Jay Dyerversus

1:03:28Jay Dyerpseudepigrapha

1:03:29Jay Dyerand

1:03:30Jay Dyervarying lists amongst the church fathers.

1:03:33Jay DyerSo here we have Lee McDonald. This won't take about a second. Here we have Lee McDonald

1:03:37Jay Dyerlisting the

1:03:39Jay DyerOld Testament books in the Eastern Church in the fourth and fifth century, and you'll notice there is some variation

1:03:45Jay Dyerwith

1:03:46Jay DyerAthanasius

1:03:47Jay Dyerbasically including

1:03:48Jay Dyerelements of the deuterocanon.

1:03:51Jay DyerAnd Athanasius says that the deuteroc deuterocanon is for catechumans

1:03:55Jay Dyerto read. So even if we and we don't have a problem in the Orthodox Church with the phrase deuterocanon,

1:04:00Jay Dyeryou see.

1:04:01Jay DyerBut it's not just a question of the deuterocanon as we'll see. It's also a question of the authenticity of the book of Revelation,

1:04:07Jay Dyerwhich Athanasius has a key role

1:04:09Jay Dyerin determining

1:04:12Jay Dyeras canonical by convincing Rome. So the East

1:04:16Jay Dyerconvinces the West of the canonicity of the Catholic epistles

1:04:20Jay Dyerand revelation

1:04:21Jay Dyeraccording to Lee McDonald.

1:04:23Jay DyerYou'll notice that Beric is included

1:04:26Jay Dyerin most of these lists.

1:04:28Jay DyerAnd, by the way, I think it's Molito's list that

1:04:33Jay DyerJames White tried to refer to in the Trent Horn debate, and Sam Shamoon

1:04:39Jay Dyerpointed out that James White was dishonest and wrong about Molito's list. It's also,

1:04:46Jay DyerI'm I'm pretty sure it's Molito. It's either Vincentian or Molito's Molito's account. I'm not sure. But there's a video that Shamoon has on that, by the way.

1:04:54Jay DyerEpiphanius,

1:04:56Jay Dyeryou'll notice that

1:04:58Jay Dyerit's pretty much Ezra's, Barak as well.

1:05:03Jay DyerYou'll notice that,

1:05:06Jay DyerRuth

1:05:06Jay Dyeris, and judges are sometimes also not included.

1:05:12Jay DyerSo, for example,

1:05:13Jay Dyersome of these lists

1:05:16Jay Dyerwill have Ruth.

1:05:18Jay DyerSome of these lists won't. So you you can see they're quite different in their

1:05:23Jay Dyerinclusion and exclusion. Now, yes, I admit that these aren't the most essential verses, you see.

1:05:30Jay DyerBut none of that really or or books. But none of that matters in regard to the Protestant idea of the final completed fixed word of God as the only sole authority

1:05:41Jay Dyeror final authority for the church,

1:05:44Jay Dyeryou see.

1:05:46Jay DyerIf we come over here to

1:05:48Jay Dyerother lists, here we have pseudochrystallism

1:05:51Jay Dyerpseudochrystallism

1:05:52Jay Dyerincluding

1:05:55Jay DyerSirach.

1:05:57Jay DyerYou have Tobit over here

1:05:59Jay Dyerincluded in some these are just ancient very varying ancient lists. K. We're gonna we're gonna do several of these. This is still Old Testament.

1:06:06Jay DyerIf we come over here to Hillary,

1:06:08Jay Dyerthis is the book of the Old Testament in the Western church in the fourth and fifth century.

1:06:13Jay DyerSo Hillary,

1:06:15Jay Dyerone of his textual

1:06:17Jay Dyerlists has also Tobit,

1:06:20Jay Dyerfirst and second, Asdras, and the epistle of Jeremiah.

1:06:25Jay DyerIf you come over to Jerome, Jerome is the only church father that lists explicitly

1:06:30Jay Dyerthe Protestant canon.

1:06:34Jay DyerAnd then the next list,

1:06:36Jay Dyerthere's some other

1:06:39Jay Dyerthis is

1:06:42Jay DyerAugustine's list

1:06:44Jay Dyerof the Old Testament canon. It, of course, includes the deuterocanon. And why did Augustine have this list? Well, Augustine agreed with pope Damasius' list

1:06:53Jay Dyerat the Council of Rome. Council of Rome is a regional council

1:06:58Jay Dyeraround,

1:06:59Jay Dyermid, you know, mid three hundreds,

1:07:01Jay Dyerlate three hundreds.

1:07:02Jay DyerAnd

1:07:03Jay Dyerit's maybe around 400, I forget the exact date, but it's very similar to,

1:07:08Jay Dyerkind of what you see in the apostolic canons, except

1:07:12Jay Dyerthe apostolic canons also have a differing list as we'll see in a second.

1:07:17Jay DyerHere's Augustine's list, and then next to it is the council of Rome that we're talking about, which is very important in the West.

1:07:23Jay DyerThere's another council of hippo

1:07:25Jay Dyerthat includes the deuterocanonical books, and then the Codex Vaticanus includes the deuterocanonical texts.

1:07:31Jay DyerCodex Sinaiticus

1:07:33Jay Dyerhas wisdom, sirach as well. Codex Alexandrinus

1:07:37Jay Dyeralso includes deuterocanonical

1:07:39Jay Dyertexts.

1:07:40Jay DyerSo

1:07:43Jay Dyerlet's look at New Testament books.

1:07:46Jay DyerEusebius'

1:07:47Jay Dyerlist,

1:07:51Jay DyerIt's unclear if Eusebius included Revelation

1:07:53Jay DyerBook of Revelation,

1:07:56Jay Dyerand

1:07:58Jay Dyerit includes

1:07:59Jay Dyerthe Didache

1:08:03Jay Dyerand

1:08:03Jay Dyerthe,

1:08:05Jay Dyerepistle Barnabas.

1:08:09Jay DyerClement's list

1:08:12Jay Dyerincludes texts that no one else included as canonical, such as epistle Barnabas,

1:08:18Jay Dyera shepherd of Hermes, acts of Paul, revelation of Peter.

1:08:23Jay DyerCyril of Jerusalem, who I mentioned to that guy,

1:08:26Jay Dyerdoes not include the book of Revelation. So this is not this does not afford Protestants any evidence or help. And you can see it right there. He has the correct New Testament,

1:08:36Jay Dyerbut he does not include

1:08:39Jay Dyerthe book of Revelation.

1:08:45Jay DyerWe have Athanasius'

1:08:46Jay DyerNew Testament Canon, and it is the full

1:08:50Jay Dyeraccurate

1:08:51Jay DyerNew Testament Canon that, again,

1:08:53Jay Dyerhe helps convince Rome to accept when it comes to the book of Revelation. And I think the book of Hebrews in the Catholic epistles.

1:09:01Jay DyerThere is, the Molinist,

1:09:04Jay Dyerand it looks

1:09:08Jay Dyerpretty

1:09:11Jay Dyeraccurate, but doesn't have the book of James.

1:09:16Jay DyerEpiphanius.

1:09:18Jay DyerI don't know why Epiphanius

1:09:20Jay Dyerwould include wisdom of Sirach

1:09:23Jay Dyerwisdom and Sirach in the New Testament. That's pretty odd.

1:09:27Jay DyerBut it looks like

1:09:33Jay Dyerthe apostolic canons, which is what we're looking at right here.

1:09:38Jay DyerThey do not have the book of Hebrews or the book of Revelation.

1:09:46Jay DyerBut the apostolic canons, which had a wider acceptance,

1:09:49Jay Dyerespecially in the East, did include the deuterocanonical text. And that's why it even trumps an individual church father's opinion.

1:09:58Jay DyerBut it's not even final because

1:10:00Jay Dyerwe don't include the letters of Clement,

1:10:05Jay Dyerand we do not include

1:10:06Jay Dyeror and and does not include the book of Revelation.

1:10:10Jay DyerSo you understand we're walking through the actual historical

1:10:14Jay Dyerprocess of the lists

1:10:16Jay Dyerand how

1:10:17Jay Dyermuch variation and differentiation there is. Now there's not a whole lot of differentiation or variation variation on the gospels. Okay?

1:10:24Jay DyerIt's almost always

1:10:26Jay Dyerthe,

1:10:28Jay DyerCatholic epistles, Pauline epistles

1:10:31Jay Dyerto a degree,

1:10:33Jay Dyerand

1:10:34Jay DyerI mean, if Paul wrote Hebrews, I'm saying,

1:10:37Jay Dyerand the book of Revelation,

1:10:39Jay Dyerand the inclusion of

1:10:41Jay Dyerbooks that no one ends up really accepting like

1:10:43Jay DyerClement

1:10:45Jay Dyerand so forth. The apostolic canons include

1:10:48Jay Dyertwo Clementine letters

1:10:51Jay Dyerand the apostolic constitutions,

1:10:53Jay Dyerapparently, which is odd. Gregorian, Nazi, and Zeus' list does not include

1:10:57Jay DyerRevelation or Hebrews.

1:11:00Jay DyerAnd

1:11:01Jay Dyerthe African canons

1:11:03Jay Dyerinclude the acts of the martyrs, which I don't think anybody includes.

1:11:07Jay DyerSo then you have, again, canon 85 over here. Now

1:11:12Jay Dyerwhen

1:11:13Jay DyerTrullo meets,

1:11:14Jay DyerTrullo says, we affirm

1:11:17Jay Dyerthe canons of the previous councils,

1:11:21Jay Dyerand we affirm explicitly

1:11:24Jay Dyerthe Carthaginian

1:11:25Jay Dyerlist of the canon.

1:11:27Jay DyerThe Carthaginian list,

1:11:30Jay Dyergoing from memory, is pretty much

1:11:33Jay Dyerthe

1:11:37Jay DyerCouncil of Romulus.

1:11:40Jay DyerSo, essentially,

1:11:43Jay Dyerby the time of Trullo, and Trullo is affirmed by the Seventh Ecumenical Council,

1:11:49Jay Dyeryou have an affirmation of

1:11:51Jay Dyerwhat is pretty much

1:11:53Jay Dyerthe I the the identical canon to the west in terms of the council of,

1:11:58Jay DyerRome

1:12:00Jay DyerAugustine and Pope Damasius.

1:12:02Jay DyerSo there's not a whole lot of differentiation.

1:12:05Jay DyerI think

1:12:06Jay Dyersome people even John Damascus, for example,

1:12:10Jay Dyerstill

1:12:12Jay Dyerincludes in his canon list

1:12:14Jay DyerClement, the letters of Clement. So the orthodox view, because we don't believe in sola scriptura,

1:12:20Jay Dyerit's not as rigid

1:12:22Jay Dyeras this protestant idea of you have to have this, like, completely, you know, walled off canon that is not in any way sort flexible. In the Orthodox church, there's more flexibility here because we're not proponents of sola scriptura.

1:12:35Jay DyerSo we don't believe that all these they're all heretics. They didn't get the the infallible word of God right.

1:12:41Jay DyerWell, notice, Protestants take Revelation 22 and they say, if you take away from the word of God or if you add to it, you're part of the Lake Of Fire.

1:12:49Jay DyerOh, so all the church fathers who were debating and trying to figure out the canon, guess they're all in the Lake Of Fire unless they got the canon right. It's just silly and it's totally divorced from history. Last thing I'll say on this is

1:12:59Jay Dyerthe,

1:13:00Jay Dyerone of the key things that surprised me I don't remember if it was I think it was in

1:13:05Jay Dyerthe f f Bruce book, but I'm going from memory,

1:13:08Jay Dyeris

1:13:09Jay Dyerthe admission

1:13:10Jay Dyerthat

1:13:11Jay Dyerliturgy

1:13:12Jay Dyerplayed a really important role in the formation of the biblical canon,

1:13:17Jay Dyerand a lot of Protestants have never heard that.

1:13:21Jay DyerWhen I was Protestant

1:13:22Jay Dyerand debating and studying these issues, I'd never heard this. That was new, what liturgy.

1:13:27Jay DyerYes. In fact, the daily readings or the lectionaries

1:13:30Jay Dyerin the ancient seas and churches

1:13:33Jay Dyerhad a very important role

1:13:35Jay Dyerin figuring out

1:13:37Jay Dyerthe tradition of the church in regard to authenticity and authorship of many of these texts.

1:13:44Jay DyerFor example, if an ancient apostolic sea, say Rome, say Jerusalem,

1:13:49Jay Dyerif they had cited a text or had been if if a text had been read

1:13:54Jay Dyerand it went back as far as anyone could remember and as far as other church fathers had, given witness to, say, Irenaeus,

1:14:03Jay Dyersay Clement, say, Ignatius, say they cited a text,

1:14:07Jay Dyerthose were good pieces of evidence that that's probably authentic.

1:14:13Jay DyerBut it's also the liturgical

1:14:15Jay Dyercycle and the liturgical readings that help the church determine

1:14:21Jay Dyerfrom the third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh centuries,

1:14:25Jay Dyerwhat the normative

1:14:27Jay Dyercanon would be. And if you understand that,

1:14:30Jay Dyerand that's why I brought the Matthew example of that guy and the authorship. It's not just apostolic authorship. There's other things that go into it like liturgy.

1:14:38Jay DyerThat devastates the Protestant sola scriptura position.

1:14:43Jay DyerSnek, what's up, man?