FULL Muslim Lantern Vs Jay Dyer Debate / SNEAKO - Islam / Christianity

0:03Jay DyerBut I joined it.

0:12Jay DyerSo, apparently, they had a rage quit or something. I don't know the details of what all went down.

0:20Jay DyerOh, crap. I was supposed to have a... Dang it. Was supposed to be with Richard Grove right now. I forgot about that.

0:40Jay DyerSo anyway, so I DM'd sneak that I'm in his thing.

0:47Jay DyerLet's see.

0:48Jay DyerHe says I friended you.

0:52Jay DyerFriend request.

1:09Jay DyerAnd I said, what about breakfast

1:12Jay Dyeraround here? And she said, I think I'm

1:15Jay Dyerwrong with her.

1:20Jay DyerWe both kinda like it.

1:39Jay DyerOkay. Yeah. I added you.

1:42Jay DyerThe server's set up weird. I don't see where the

1:45Jay Dyerwhere the debate is.

1:47Jay DyerWaiting room?

2:03Jay DyerAnd I said, bye.

2:19Jay DyerBoth kinda like it.

2:24Jay DyerAlright. I'm here. I said, yo. So what's up?

2:31Jay DyerI'm awaiting.

2:34Jay DyerYo.

2:36Jay DyerYo.

2:47Jay DyerMaybe it's in the religion section. Let's see. I still can't talk.

2:54Jay DyerGonna bait on rumble. I thought the rope... The bait's in here, dude.

3:03Jay DyerStill making me wait.

3:06Jay DyerYou may not talk for four minutes.

3:44Jay DyerTrinidad James,

3:46Jay Dyergold all over my chain,

3:48Jay Dyergold all over my watch. Don't believe me, just watch.

4:00Jay DyerI guess the ten minute rule

4:02Jay Dyeris for bots or something. But, I mean, how many bots are trying to join servers? I don't know. Maybe he's got a bunch of haters. I don't know.

4:14Jay DyerShout out to Stuart. Thank you for that super jet.

4:18Jay DyerBe careful. Sneko and his friend pulled a fast one on Andrew when they changed the agreements of the debate.

4:26Jay DyerWell, I don't... I haven't agreed to anything other than to come into this room, so I don't know what the topics are.

4:31Jay DyerI'm not debating this

4:33Jay Dyerage of Aisha stuff. That's not... I'm a... I debate the philosophy stuff. So we're gonna debate theology philosophy.

4:41Jay DyerI'm not here to debate

4:43Jay Dyerall this degenerate prepubescent

4:45Jay Dyerstuff. That's not what I that's not what I do.

4:53Jay DyerPlenty of people can

4:55Jay Dyerdebate that topic.

5:04Jay DyerStill making me wait to talk in the chat. So...

5:12Jay DyerI mean, yeah, I think...

5:14Jay DyerI don't know who Muslim Lantern is, so I have no idea what... What's going on here. But number one,

5:20Jay DyerI'm not afraid of doing these debates, obviously.

5:29Jay DyerSo snico's

5:30Jay Dyerdebate... Stop ducking. They're telling me I'm ducking. I literally just...

5:36Jay DyerYo.

5:38Jay DyerHello?

5:44Jay DyerYo.

5:46SNEAKOHey, Jake. Can you hear me?

5:47Jay DyerYo. What's up?

5:49SNEAKONice to meet you, man.

5:50Jay DyerHey.

5:51Jay DyerHow are you guys doing?

5:52SNEAKODoing

5:54SNEAKOgood. Doing good. So this is, Muhammad Ali, and then we also have a fellow Christian here, a representative of the love speech community.

6:01SNEAKOSo we just had... I'll keep you up to, just bring you up to speed. We just had a a half debate kind of, Andrew Wilson versus Muslim lantern, this Muhammad Ali appear. And it it... We weren't able to agree to the terms of the Asian consent, but we do really wanna hear about, the trinity, if we could do a trinity debate. Don't if you're if you're ready or if you wanna do that right now. But, me and Jacosso, because a Christian, I would be unbiased. We can moderate it right now. You versus the Muslim lantern.

6:26Jay DyerYeah. I'm not opposed to debating Trinity. I have just debated for the last four hours, so I'm a little bit tired, but I'm not opposed to doing it.

6:34SNEAKOOkay. We can keep it short.

6:37SNEAKOI don't wanna keep it... How's forty five minutes?

6:40SNEAKOLet's... We could start five...

6:42SNEAKOWell, I mean, you don't have an opening statement prepared.

6:44Jay DyerI I do everything extemporaneous.

6:46Jay DyerI I I would... I mean, I would... I can do an opening statement extemporaneous.

6:50Jay DyerIt doesn't matter. I mean, do... Did you wanna do timed or conversation or what style of debate?

6:54SNEAKOSo...

6:55SNEAKOBut that's what... Let's do it right now. Ideally... Okay. So I'll do the same terms that we have for the last debate, but it went south.

7:01SNEAKOSo I I think having an opening statement for both sides would be fair, around five minutes cap.

7:07SNEAKOWe'll cap it at five minutes, and then we can go free flowing back and forth. But if there's too many interruptions, then we'll have to do timing things, and then that's when the moderators will have to step in.

7:16Jay DyerYeah. That's that's a good idea. I can do that.

7:19Muslim LanternYeah. So the thing is,

7:21Muslim Lanternlike, Andrew, you know, I was having a discussion with him. He was... Wanted to talk about the age of manager, the age of consent, right, versus the the trinity. So I don't know if you wanna mention something about Islam as well to be fair because talking just about the trinity is just a Christian thing.

7:36Jay DyerNo. I mean, usually, trinity versus Tawheed is what we debate.

7:40Muslim LanternYeah. If you... That's so so if you want to debate that, that's fine. And you already debated that, so you should already have your notes ready, I believe. Right? Because your last debate was kinda

7:48Jay DyerI I don't do notes, man. I just I just do everything extemporaneous.

7:52Muslim LanternNo. No. I'm just making that point clear. They've already had a debate on this topic just recently. So you... If you did have notes, you would have them prepared. So you can say that, but something they've already done. Right? So we were having a discussion,

8:03Muslim Lanternme and and Andrew. We can do that. If we allow each other to speak, finish the points, and ask questions, I think that can work with... Between me and you. If the moderator's notice, they're just becoming interrupting and stuff like that and someone's trying to take over, then what we can do is is just turn it into timing. Right?

8:19SNEAKOYeah.

8:19Muslim LanternThat's fine.

8:21Muslim LanternAlright.

8:21Muslim LanternSo...

8:22Muslim LanternAnd I made this... And I don't think he will, but I made this point before in the previous discussion is, like, no insulting of the prophet, directly by mentioning... Calling in names and stuff like that. I don't think he will do that,

8:34Muslim Lanternbut I'm just highlighting that because I think it's my faith. So I will... I cannot be in the call if this if this is happening. If that's fair, you can let me know. If not, you can also tell me your position.

8:43Jay DyerOkay.

8:44Jay DyerAlright.

8:45SNEAKODo you have a camera by any chance?

8:48Jay DyerI mean, I I We're live on YouTube, so my my camera is is active for YouTube right now.

8:54Muslim LanternOh, okay.

8:54SNEAKOOkay. You can activate it on on Discord too.

9:00Jay DyerYeah. Hold on.

9:04SNEAKOI know, yeah, a lot of guys are used to StreamYard and stuff.

9:22SNEAKOAlright. Yeah. It looks good.

9:27SNEAKOAlright.

9:31SNEAKOAlrighty. Okay.

9:33SNEAKOWho would prefer to to go first? Does it matter?

9:36SNEAKOI don't mind if you'd like to. I don't know if

9:38Muslim Lanternyou would like me to go first or would like to go first. I'm I'm a very

9:42Muslim Lanternreasonable person. So...

9:43Jay DyerLet me find a piece. I need a piece of paper. I always take notes, so hold on a second.

9:47Muslim LanternOkay. Sure.

9:50SNEAKOThey were complaining about the volume earlier. Mohammed, your your your volume is a little low. I had you all the way up, but it's... And then

9:57SNEAKOeven at the...

9:58Muslim LanternChristian's working. Or something?

10:00SNEAKONo. No. It's a little low.

10:02Muslim LanternAh, okay.

10:03SNEAKOYou you could turn it up. But

10:05Muslim LanternI don't... I think it's the loudest I can get it right now, but I'm just also speaking.

10:10Muslim LanternI'm not speaking loudly because it's 2AM. You know? So

10:14SNEAKORight. I understand.

10:15Muslim LanternYeah. I've mentioned to you about the neighbors and stuff. I don't wanna be waking them up or something.

10:31Jay DyerAlright. Let me see what's called.

10:36SNEAKOWho is that?

10:44SNEAKOOkay. This is a Trinity versus Tawheed debate. Let's get a opening statement from...

10:50SNEAKOI'll I'll I'll start with Jay.

10:52Jay DyerOkay.

10:53Jay DyerYeah. So the doctrine of Trinity is a doctrine that is not derived from philosophy. It's not derived from Saint Paul. Primarily, it's not derived from the council of Nicaea. The doctrine of Trinity is taught in the law and the prophets. In fact, if you go back to my Daniel and Hikikachu debate, in the first ten minutes, I hold up a whiteboard that shows all the passages from the Torah and then the prophets that we derive the doctrine of the Trinity from,

11:16Jay Dyermainly from Jewish exegesis

11:19Jay Dyerof the Old Testament. This might sound surprising because people think that the doctrine of trinity is something that's unique to Christianity or that Jews don't believe in this nowadays,

11:28Jay Dyerso therefore Jews could not have taught it back then. In fact, many Jewish scholars today,

11:33Jay DyerI referenced many of those in that opening statement of the Daniel debate. I can refer to them now. This would be Benjamin Summer, Alan Siegel,

11:40Jay DyerSchaeffer, etcetera, Boyarin. All of those scholars admit that the early church's view is not that distinct from the Judaism of the time of Christ in recognizing

11:51Jay Dyermore than one person in the trinity. Note, I am not saying that the Jews of that time were all Trinitarians.

12:00Jay DyerI'm not saying that... It's okay. I'm not saying that Jews necessarily accept Trinitarianism. I'm saying that these scholars prove

12:08Jay Dyerthat in the time of Christ, there was not a generic Unitarianism

12:12Jay Dyerthat characterized what it is to be, quote, monotheist. They didn't see a contradiction or a problem between the idea of, quote, monotheism

12:19Jay Dyerand the recognition of the father as the archaic cause and fount, the angel of the lord as his messenger, which we see through all throughout the old testament, who is called god, who is called divine, who is called the messenger of the covenant, who is called y'all way in Exodus three, Exodus 23

12:34Jay Dyerthroughout the Psalms and the many Theophanes passages.

12:37Jay DyerAnd many times in the prophets, Jesus predicted, especially in latter Isaiah, to be a divine messiah that would be worshiped.

12:43Jay DyerSo a lot of these references to the trinity are primarily grounded, rooted in the Torah and the prophets. Islam, however, when it argues against the trinity, does so on the basis of it not being aware of or not being informed typically on what the actual texts teach in terms of the Jewish texts that we as Christians also refer to. Also, it comes to the text of the gospel, the the text of the New Testament, they're not aware of the fact that Jesus throughout the gospel of John in every chapter refers to himself as both the vine and or a member of the triad. John one talks about Jesus being the logos. John one talks about him being eternally begotten, monogenes theos. So the eternal beginning, all of that is already at the beginning of the gospel of John. And, again, every chapter, whether it's John five through nine where Jesus identifies himself as the one at Mount Sinai talking to Moses, the one that gave the law. Jesus refers to himself as the son of god many times over, which means that his god is not Allah

13:37Jay Dyerbecause Allah has no sons. So Jesus many, many times over throughout the gospel says he is the son of god and that he makes us by grace sons of god. This proves that there is not the same god of Muhammad and the same god of Jesus. Jesus is not referring to Allah as his father.

13:52Jay DyerAllah has no sons.

13:54Jay DyerSo when we come to the time of the early church fathers, they unanimously teach the deity of Christ, the triad as well, the deity of the holy spirit. This becomes codified by the time of Nicaea. It's not invented at the time of Nicaea. You can read the church fathers from Irenaeus to Ignatius to Clement. You can read Cyril, excuse me, Cyprian.

14:13Jay DyerYou can read Athanasius, all these church fathers, Alexander, writing prior to the time time that I see that he teach the deed of Christ, and what would become the doctrine or known as the doctrine of the trinity. So the trinity is not something foreign to the scriptures. It's rooted in the Torah. It's rooted in the prophets. Rooted in the New Testament, rooted in the teaching of Christ himself.

14:27Jay DyerAnd I would add that when we compare it to what's in the Koran, the Koran makes many mistakes, first of all, about what the Christians teach.

14:34Jay DyerThey they say that we take our monks as lords. We do not. They take... They they think that the Koran thinks that we take Mary as part of the trinity. We do not. The Quran also is itself confused in two areas that I always like to highlight, which is that it claims that prior revelation confirms it and backs it up. And many times over, like in sura five, it says that you can look to the previous revelation to confirm the new revelation, but the old revelation contradicts it. And when Muslims see the contradictions, they do the same move of ijaz in the debate to say, well, we reject all the times that it contradicts, but we accept all the time that it is with our revelation. Well, that is a circle. That's arguing for the thing that's in question. We want to know how does the prior revelation confirm the new revelation, which the Quran says it can do,

15:19Jay Dyerif the prior revelations are corrupt and how foolish it would be to look to a corrupt book to supposedly prove an incorrupt book. So it makes no sense on the face of it. I would also then argue that the doctrine of tantzee that's derived from the passages that talk about Allah being nothing like creation 42 and I think around one ten, somewhere in there. It says that Allah is absolutely nothing like creation, and yet Muslims many times over will utilize terminology, language, and so forth to liken Allah to a created thing, to say that Allah is merciful, that he is just, he has all these things. Allah has a hand, has a shin, and so forth, things that come up in the accepted

15:55Jay Dyerhadiths. Well, all of those things are contradictory to the notion of Tawheed that god is a pure unity or pure oneness. This is why Muslims for centuries have debated amongst themselves whether the attributes are really distinct, and you have people like Jake, sola fis, and others who say, no. Yes. Allah has a foot, has a shin. We don't know the modality, but he really has these things, the real attributes,

16:13Jay Dyerand yet we're said to be only a a religion of perfect unity and perfect oneness, yet he's many. Well, the same problem that you have with the attributes

16:22Jay Dyerand the dependence relationship of the attributes on Allah's essence and amongst themselves is no different than the question that we have about the persons of the trinity. It's just simply that you say that we have a problem that you don't have to answer when you have the exact same problem in relationship to the attributes

16:36Jay Dyerin Allah's essence and their dependence relationship.

16:39Jay DyerAnd if you don't think there's a dependence relationship, then I will just simply say, do you believe that they are then ase or self existent? If they're self existent, then you have, what, 99 gods. So you have the same problem, but a double standard into... As to how you answer that. I'm not saying note that you believe that the attributes of persons. I know you don't believe that. But the same problem of the one and the many and the dependent status between the attributes and the essence is a problem that you cannot answer because within Islam, there are countless multiple contradictions. How much time do

17:09SNEAKOI have?

17:10Muslim LanternYou're good. I don't think he'll give you a specific time. Yeah. Yeah.

17:13Jay DyerYou're good. I thought he said five minute opening or whatever.

17:17SNEAKOThat was good. That was concise. I think it's fine.

17:22SNEAKOYou wanna respond? Muscle my turn.

17:24Muslim LanternYeah. Okay.

17:25Muslim LanternDuring my response, I wanna ask you questions if that's fine. Right? I just wanna ask first question is what is the trinity in your belief? What what is the trinity? Just because we're talking about the trinity, so I think defining terms is important. Because you said you found it present in the old testament. So where is the trinity?

17:40Jay DyerIt's a doctrine that god is first and foremost identified

17:43Jay Dyerwith the person of the father. The father is what we call the archae, the fount, the source, the cause,

17:49Jay Dyerthe supreme beginning of the other two persons,

17:52Jay Dyerand that's revealed to be the person of his eternally begotten son who identify as the lord Jesus Christ and with his eternal holy spirit. So they are three in one. They share a common essence or nature

18:05Jay Dyerin that they come from the father, and they derive the same nature from the father as Jesus says in John five and six. But they're also really and truly distinct, which is why we see Jesus, for example, praying to the father, asking things of the father, and so forth. So the bible, we believe, teaches both of those things, that he is one and three, and it's not a problem for monotheism because, actually, the word monotheism is a really late term that you don't see until the sixteen hundreds.

18:30Muslim LanternSo I... I'm sorry. I didn't get a definition, but I'll give a definition, and then you can confirm with me. You said few things. I understand them, but I wanted, like, a concise definition. Right? You tell me whether this is, like, representative of the Trinity or not. You have

18:44Muslim Lanterngod the father, god the son, god the holy spirit.

18:46Muslim LanternK?

18:47Muslim LanternFather is not the son. Son is not the holy spirit.

18:50Muslim LanternThree persons in one being.

18:52Muslim LanternSo it's one being, but there's there's three persons that are within that one being.

18:57Muslim LanternAnd

18:59Muslim Lanternthe... They are coequal, coeternal.

19:02Muslim LanternSo they share... They are equal in in everything, and they're eternal the same way. Is that a good representation of what the Trinitarian

19:09Jay DyerSome

19:10Jay Dyerof that terminology is a little ambiguous, which is why I gave you a specific monarchical Trinitarian definition. So the model that I gave you was a definition. It's called monarchical Trinitarianism,

19:19Jay Dyerand it's distinct from a lot of Western Trinitarian theology that you might find in Roman Catholicism. So I was being very precise in the response that I gave.

19:28Muslim LanternNo. No. But do you agree? You have not told me. Do you agree the... If you say something is ambiguous, you can tell me that this specific part is I don't agree with it or ambiguous, then you can clarify it. What I've said is that the definition of the Trinity or not, I just want a concise

19:42Muslim LanternIs it that there are three persons in one being that coequal, coeternal, and, they're not the same? Like, the father is not the son, son is not the holy spirit, but they're one god.

19:49Jay DyerSure.

19:49Muslim LanternVery simple way. Do you agree with that? Okay. So... Because this is how how I see people... Anyone who've seen define the trinity define it that way. So I just wanted a agreement with that. Okay. So that's the trinity.

19:59Muslim LanternNow you quoted John one, and you tried to say that the scripture shows the trinity, etcetera. Quoting John one is not a evidence for the trinity. The trinity says three persons in one being. Person is separate from being. John one doesn't say that. It says in the beginning, it was the word. The word was with God,

20:13Muslim Lanternand the word was with God... Was God. The word became flesh among all the molars. If this is what you're referring to, that's not three persons in one being there. It does not talk about the the fact that they're distinct persons in

20:23Jay DyerI didn't I didn't say that. John one has the doctor.

20:25Muslim LanternBy the way, it's my it's

20:27Muslim Lanternmy it's it's my time.

20:28Jay DyerRight? No. You you said you wanted conversation. You didn't say you wanted No.

20:31Muslim LanternNo. No. I... No. No. I said I'll ask you a question within my time. Because you made many points. I have to respond to that.

20:37Jay DyerWell, but I didn't say that the trinity is three persons in John one. I said

20:41Muslim Lanternthat Okay. The the octre I you said many things that I disagreed with as well.

20:44Jay DyerSo you have saying is a straw man. That wasn't what I said.

20:47Muslim LanternNo. No. We'll we'll have a back and forth after I'm done, but I did allow you to speak for, like, five minutes and make so many points.

20:51Jay DyerSo wait a minute. So the back and forth is only when you ask a question? I'm confused. You don't want a five minute opening? No. I thought you wanted a five minute opening statement. Yeah.

20:59Muslim LanternI have an opening statement. I'm saying within my opening statement, I'll ask you questions for clarification. That's it. So you respond to the question. And the question was, why is the Trinity because it's the debate of the topic? That's it. So I needed the clarification on that. But but other than that, I wanted to finish as well responding to all the points that you made. Right? And then we can get into back and forth. No problem. I don't mind. But I gotta respond because you made so many points. Right?

21:19SNEAKOHey. Hold on.

21:19Jay DyerBefore you before you

21:20SNEAKOcontinue, is that... Does that sound okay for both sides?

21:24SNEAKOOkay.

21:25SNEAKOWould say that, you know, with your with your question there,

21:29SNEAKOwhile you were speaking, it kind of gave the impression that you were looking for back and forth.

21:32Jay DyerRight.

21:33SNEAKOBecause if he's going to clarify,

21:35SNEAKOyou know, a question, he had to fully clarify

21:38SNEAKOthat you understand. So he wasn't really done with his clarification

21:41SNEAKOis what I thought.

21:42Muslim LanternNo. No. No. We passed from the point of the Trinity. He nodded his head his head. This is Trinity, and then I went to something else. And then he said I didn't

21:49Jay Dyersay anything. Supposed to know when... Yeah. Okay.

21:52Muslim LanternNo. No. Just a question. I'll ask, for example, as the Trinity, you give a response, and that's it. Like, that's all I wanted. I didn't want, like, everything I will mention, and then you 'll come. But then it's not gonna be an opening statement. Right? So you said that church fathers were unified on the idea of the trinity. That's... That is false.

22:07Jay DyerIt's not what I said.

22:07Muslim LanternI've got many examples.

22:09Jay DyerYeah. He's another strong man.

22:12Muslim LanternK. But I'm not gonna be able to talk if you... Everything I say that you're

22:16Jay Dyeryou're going to So I can't reply.

22:18Muslim LanternCan we we get can we get... Can we we... Can you write down what you believe on straw manning UN?

22:23Muslim LanternAnd then we can have an open discussion about that one sometime with opening statement.

22:26Jay DyerWhy don't you... Okay.

22:27Muslim LanternIs that fine?

22:27Jay DyerSure.

22:30Muslim LanternOkay. Clarify what you meant, what you said about the church fathers. What did you say about the church fathers?

22:35Jay DyerRight. So it's a fallacy of ambiguity to say that I mean that they don't have debate. I said that they're unified on teaching the three persons and that there is the duty of Christ. They do teach those things. They also have debates on these topics too.

22:48Muslim LanternYou... They have a unified agreement on what the trinity is? Are they old?

22:52Jay DyerThat's not what I said.

22:54Muslim LanternOkay. Good. So we have that established that the church will not agree with

22:58Jay DyerNo. I can't do it. You're twisting what I said.

23:01SNEAKOOr they didn't.

23:01Jay DyerIt's not.

23:02Muslim LanternI'm asking

23:02SNEAKOa question.

23:02Jay DyerIs there a unified teaching of unity in Allah? No. So there's debate over it. You know that. So you're trying to pin me into saying something I'm not saying.

23:09Muslim LanternThat's not my my question to you.

23:11Jay DyerYou're asking to It's called a fallacy of

23:13Muslim Lanternto get It's a fallacy of any

23:15Jay DyerDo you know what that is?

23:17Muslim LanternOkay.

23:17Jay DyerIt's of simplicity? No. It's not a

23:19Muslim Lanternsimple fathers

23:20Jay DyerThat's what the fallacy is. Making a simple question for a complex response.

23:25Muslim LanternThat's that's the problem always with questions. Like, we allow you to

23:27Jay Dyerspeak That we know fallacies. That's the problem.

23:29Muslim LanternI'm asking I'm asking a simple question.

23:32Jay DyerThat's the fallacy. That's

23:34Jay Dyerthe fallacy. It's that it requires a

23:36Muslim Lanterncomplex response. My question is not a fallacy. I asked, did the church

23:38Jay DyerIt is a fallacy.

23:39Muslim LanternEither yes

23:40Jay Dyeror no. Don't you don't even know that this is a fallacy?

23:41Muslim LanternFinish the question and stop interrupting.

23:44Muslim LanternI asked a simple question. Do the... You can say yes or no. You can say that's a fallacy.

23:47Jay DyerCan that's fallacy.

23:48Muslim LanternListening can make a can make a judgment.

23:51Muslim LanternI asked a simple question. Did the church fathers have an agreement

23:54Jay DyerThese tricks might work on your audience. They don't work over here.

23:57Muslim LanternOn... Okay. So you just... This is how Christians are always. We try to have discussions.

24:01Muslim LanternYou you

24:03Jay Dyera complex question fallacy and make it an either or. That's why you keep saying it's a simple question, not a simple question. It's a difficult question.

24:10Muslim LanternLook. You're you're

24:11Jay Dyerinterested in question about Allah and his attributes? Is that a simple question?

24:15Muslim LanternYes. Yes.

24:16Jay DyerIt's simple. So there's not debates amongst the on that?

24:20Muslim LanternIt is a simple question, and I'm gonna respond to it. But you you

24:22Jay DyerIt's not a simple question.

24:23Muslim LanternYou know it.

24:25Jay DyerOkay. I So what's the relationship with

24:27Muslim Lanternall of It's not gonna work. Okay. You're interrupting, and this is not how discussions

24:30Jay Dyerwork. No. Just because you're playing vain, and you're you're you're you're erecting false

24:35Muslim Lanterneither or going on right

24:37Jay Dyernow. Is a is a false either or a fallacy? Is that a fallacy?

24:41Jay DyerIs a false either or a fallacy?

24:43Muslim LanternIf the moderators are not gonna enjoy it, I'm

24:45Jay Dyernot gonna be

24:46Muslim Lanternreturning and talking. There's no... No. I can speak of my opening statement without you asking me questions. It's my opening statement, not yours.

24:52Jay DyerYeah. You you opened your statement asking questions, playing games, dude. Come on.

24:58SNEAKOOkay. Can How about this? Can you ask the question? And because Jay is saying that it's a complicated

25:03SNEAKOquestion, can you respond to it in under a minute? You can ask the question again. It's complicated. You can have a minute to respond to the question.

25:10Jay DyerThat's fair.

25:10Muslim LanternAnd... No. Look. Look. He's not... I'm not gonna ask him any questions because what he's trying to do is just waste time. He... I was making a point, then he said you misrepresented me. I said, okay. Go ahead. Represent yourself. He doesn't wanna represent himself. I'm saying, believe it

25:22Jay Dyeror not. Already gave you a... I I gave you a super precise... Well, I don't wanna represent myself when I gave you a super precise definition of trinity. Come

25:29Muslim Lanternon, dude. You didn't. The question

25:30Jay DyerI didn't give... I gave you a five minute super precise monarchical Trinitarian.

25:34Muslim LanternOkay? Here's my argument. Anyways... Anyway... Okay.

25:36Jay DyerYeah, I agree.

25:36Muslim LanternI'm not gonna ask you questions. I'm gonna I'm gonna say my opening statement like you did, like I allowed to speak with the interruption.

25:42Jay DyerNo. You don't get another five minutes. It's your fault that you ask me questions. What do

25:45Muslim Lanternyou mean another five? What...

25:46Jay DyerYou said another five minutes?

25:47Jay DyerIn your opening statement. That was dumb of you.

25:49Muslim LanternOkay. So...

25:51Muslim LanternOkay.

25:51Muslim LanternI'm gonna continue with my opening statement, responding

25:55Jay Dyerto minutes, twenty minutes, thirty minutes? How many how many minutes?

25:57Muslim LanternNo. No. The same time that you had. I'm gonna be

26:00Jay Dyercontinuing You've already gone for what? Four, five minutes? It's not my fault you asked a question. That's

26:04SNEAKOyour fault.

26:05Muslim LanternYou've been talking, not me. It's it's a waste of time. I'm not gonna waste my time allowing you to speak to now.

26:09Jay DyerYou asked the question and then you asked

26:10Muslim LanternI'm gonna continue I'm gonna continue with my proposition, and you can... You're not gonna keep jumping by saying, you're misrepresenting me. That's a straw man. You're Fellow buster. Fellow buster.

26:18Jay DyerYep. Yep. Yep.

26:19Muslim LanternLike I listen to you, and then you... We can have a discussion, and we can have one to one back and forth, and you can say where everyone Okay.

26:24SNEAKOWe'll give you two minutes for... To finish your statement.

26:28Muslim LanternNo. At least three minutes. Two minutes is not enough. Fair. Three. He made multiple points. Okay. Okay.

26:33Muslim LanternWithout interruption, I'm gonna continue now with... If our opening statement is... Okay. Church fathers were in complete disagreement

26:39Muslim Lanternon their beliefs and what constitutes the Trinity. There's many quotes that I have over here that can demonstrate that. To so to try and come and say there's kind of a unified agreement or whatever it is, that's completely not true. They had complete different beliefs from one another. I'm gonna read just quickly maybe some of these positions. So Ignatius, for example, had a position of subordinates. You can lead

27:00Muslim Lanternin his letter to Magnesians chapter 13,

27:04Muslim Lanternbe subject to the bishop and to one another as Jesus Christ to the father. So he believes that Jesus Christ was subject to the father.

27:13Muslim LanternYou have scholars who say these positions. So it's not it's not me taking a quotation out of context like some people who try to come and pretend. For example,

27:20Muslim LanternVirginia crowd says in Saint Ignatius and Christianity in Antioch in page 143,

27:25Muslim Lanternnone of these passages, after she's mentioning some passages of the beliefs that

27:29Muslim LanternIgnatius had, adds to the understanding of the trinity meant to Ignatius. We are forced to conclude that it was a very undefined

27:37Muslim Lanternbelief indeed. So he didn't have a defined belief. William Schoedel says in Ignatius' commentary, page 20, Ignatius casually uses Trithonian formula. He makes... He does not. He makes little of them theologically. So he does not make theological arguments in regards to the trinity.

27:53Muslim LanternSo this is not a a specific person. If I can do the same thing with Arianesus now with the... Trulloia, I don't have much time, but I can do that. He is welcome to ask. I can give the quotations of every single one of them. Some of them would believe that the son was created by the father. Some of them would believe that the father is superior to the son. They're not they're not coequal as the doctor of the trinity says.

28:13Muslim LanternNow he says, oh, the Quran says that it confirms the previous scriptures. Yeah. We we know what it means by confirms the previous scriptures. You can open the Quran chapter five verse forty seven forty eight where it says that it's a criterion over it, which means whoever disagrees, it's not a a jazz position as he's tried to make it. That's a Muslim position. As mentioned by scholars,

28:30Muslim Lanternthat the the scripture is changed. And if it is changed, they don't ever would disagree with that, we then completely disagree with it. And what does confirm mean? It means it confirms that there was previous revelations that was revealed to the previous prophets, and it confirms the existence of previous prophets. That's what confirms means. Doesn't mean that we say that everything in there is completely

28:48Muslim Lanternokay. You said proven a a a corrupted scripture... A corrupted scripture was a corrupted scripture. We don't try to prove Islam using the bible. We never tried to do that. You said doctrine and you made so many fallacies,

28:59Muslim Lanterntrying

29:00Muslim Lanternto equate an attribute to a part, which is something that we don't believe in.

29:03Jay DyerWhere where is the fallacy?

29:05Muslim LanternSo so You got three minutes on

29:06SNEAKOour update. You got one more minute.

29:08Muslim LanternYeah. So we

29:10Muslim Lanterndon't believe attributes are parts. We don't use that terminology when it comes to of Allah.

29:14Muslim LanternSay that just because God has attributes, that therefore God has many parts is ridiculous.

29:19Muslim LanternTo say that we say that Allah is not like anyone, and we have an attribute. He has an attribute before he's like us. No. We believe, for instance, our knowledge is limited. Is is dependent on Allah. We don't know the the future.

29:29Muslim LanternWe forget the knowledge of Allah's ultimate. He knows the past, present, and future. He knows hypothetical

29:34Muslim Lanternsituation. So it's not the same. So when we say it's not like it, then it is not like it because God's knowledge is perfect and our knowledge is limited. And that is the same with all of the attributes of God. The way Allah possesses them is is perfect. The way you possess them is not. An attribute is something that does not exist in abstract, exists within something, and that something remains one. Nobody says that having attributes makes you more than one. I have love, compassion, hate, fear, all of that. No one says, therefore, I'm 100 or 200 because I have different attributes. That's ridiculous.

30:00Muslim LanternYeah. So it's just to put it simply. Like to say, black cannot exist within itself. It has

30:04SNEAKOto exist in a shirt or or

30:05Muslim Lanternan object. Attributes do not exist in vacuum.

30:07SNEAKOOkay. Jay, we'll give you three minutes to respond.

30:10Jay DyerYeah. It was foolishness.

30:11Muslim LanternYou wanna continue to the

30:12Jay Dyerbecause...

30:13Jay DyerNo. This is my time, dude. Shut up. The... This foolishness because he admitted that the analogy that he gave to parts of a shirt, like attributes, like color... The color black, those are parts.

30:23Jay DyerAnd by the way, I didn't argue that you thought Allah had parts. I know that you don't think he does. My argument is that you contradict when you say that he has attributes

30:31Jay Dyerthat are dependent.

30:33Jay DyerDo you believe that the attributes

30:35Jay Dyerare self existent, or they... Do they depend upon Allah's essence and amongst themselves in a dependence relationship?

30:44SNEAKOThe question. Sure.

30:47SNEAKOOkay. Well, then then the three minutes is is forfeited. He asked a

30:51Jay Dyerquestion. It's not forfeited. He asked me a question in his opening statement. I can ask him a question.

30:55SNEAKOAnd then we decided to go three minutes back and forth. Mean, if if we're gonna do questions, then

31:00SNEAKOthe we can't do the three minutes uninterrupted again. So... Okay. I'll let you respond to this. I'll muscle answer question. I'll get thirty seconds to respond.

31:08Muslim LanternYeah. He mentioned something about the

31:11Muslim Lanterncolor being a part. I I mentioned many attributes like love and hate and this and that. That's... That is a straw man.

31:16Jay DyerI said, are they dependent? Is it a dependence relationship?

31:19Muslim LanternNow to respond to the the dependence or not dependence, we don't use this terminology. Allah doesn't use it, I... Therefore, I don't use it. I believe it's an attribute,

31:26Muslim Lanternand an an attribute exists within the the the creator. We don't use the term dependence or independent to them.

31:32Jay DyerAre they distinct?

31:33Muslim LanternSimple.

31:35Jay DyerAnd by the way, you you do do you do use that terminology in debates because Jake used that terminology in many of his debates.

31:42Muslim LanternI'm not Jake.

31:42Jay DyerI know. But you... But you're saying you you guys don't use that terminology. He did.

31:46Muslim LanternI'm talking about the... From an Islamic position, you're not allowed to talk about the Islamic

31:51Muslim Lanternabout himself.

31:51Jay DyerOkay. So in other words, you have a double you have a double standard. So no... Notice that he has a double standard to where in his position, he's allowed to say, I don't have to answer these questions. I don't know the relationship of

32:00Muslim Lanternof these attributes. I didn't say that.

32:02Jay DyerThat is what you said. Said we don't have to answer that.

32:04Jay DyerThat's what you said.

32:05Muslim LanternWhat you mean by dependence. I asked you what you mean by

32:07Jay DyerAre they are

32:08Jay Dyerthey are they?

32:10Muslim LanternYou have to clarify.

32:13Jay DyerAre they self existent?

32:14SNEAKOHow am I gonna

32:15Jay DyerAre they self existent? I'm sorry you don't know the terms. Are they self existent?

32:19Muslim LanternWhat do you mean by self existent?

32:21Jay DyerDo they exist of themselves? You don't know that word?

32:23Muslim LanternThey exist within the create... As I said to you. They exist

32:26Jay DyerSo they're dependent.

32:27Muslim LanternWith Allah.

32:28Muslim LanternThey exist with Allah and there is nothing that exists separate from its attributes. You're making

32:33Jay DyerAre the attributes

32:34Jay Dyerthis thing. No. It's not.

32:35SNEAKOI'm trying

32:36Jay Dyerto It's a classic debate within your Akitas. Your Akitas debate this and you know that.

32:40Muslim LanternI don't know what either what Akita is.

32:41Jay DyerYou don't know what a school is. I mean, they're just... Now he's lying, he's playing like he doesn't... This is what they do. They pretend that they don't know these are classic debates that they killed each other over. The relationship of like like the the

32:52Jay Dyerthe

32:53Jay Dyersala fi. You all do this. Does all I have an uncreated foot?

32:57Muslim LanternOkay. So you talked about the matasius. Who were the matasius? What did they believe?

33:01Muslim LanternThe... Give me the four principles of matasius. Five principles

33:03Jay Dyerof The

33:05Jay Dyerthe the neo platonist. So

33:07Jay Dyerthat's... So here's what he did. The neo platonist here. So he's deflecting away because he won't answer these questions. Notice he won't answer their questions. So whether it's the people who believe in the body parts of Allah or whether it's the neo Platonist Shia, he won't answer.

33:20Muslim LanternYou made an argument. You made an argument.

33:22Jay DyerThey have the same position as the neo Platonist Shia do.

33:25Muslim LanternThat's what you said. So present me what the

33:27Jay Dyerdifference You don't even know what the I don't have to define your schools for you. You tell me what

33:31Muslim Lanterndon't know.

33:32Jay DyerSo you don't have a... It doesn't matter the four principles when you can't answer the question.

33:36Muslim LanternThey didn't believe me.

33:36Jay DyerCan't notice he won't answer the question of Allah and the attributes of religion because he doesn't know what the word self existent and ase means.

33:42Muslim LanternYou're

33:43Muslim Lanternincorrect.

33:44Jay DyerWhat's your position?

33:46Jay DyerI don't care about them. What's your position?

33:48Muslim LanternWhat's your position? My

33:50Muslim Lanternposition is what the Quran teaches.

33:52Jay DyerWhich is what?

33:53Jay DyerSo you're obfuscating.

33:55Muslim LanternYou gotta give me a question, and then I gotta respond

33:56Jay Dyerto What is the relationship of Allah to his attributes? Are they are they ase or not?

34:01Muslim LanternI responded to you.

34:02Jay DyerNo. You didn't. No. You didn't. You're deflecting, and you're you're collapsing.

34:05Muslim LanternEvery human being knows the attribute is not

34:07Jay DyerEveryone knows this. No. They don't. You're saying that you're you're saying your schools don't debate this.

34:13Muslim LanternThis

34:14Muslim Lanternis the problem. You don't even know what my schools believe.

34:16Jay DyerIt doesn't matter what. Do... It doesn't matter. Maybe I don't know anything. Maybe I don't know anything. That's a fallacy.

34:21Jay DyerThat doesn't prove your position.

34:23Muslim LanternOkay. Sure.

34:24Jay DyerSo you're a fallacy machine. Alright.

34:26Jay DyerSo you can't answer this basic question, can you? You don't know the relationship of Allah to his attributes for the fourth time?

34:32Muslim LanternWhat... I responded to you. What do you mean?

34:34Jay DyerBut you didn't answer.

34:35Muslim LanternI told

34:36Jay Dyeryou You deflected. Attributes.

34:38Muslim LanternI told you the attributes of Allah

34:40Muslim Lanternare not something that we say is a part or separated from Allah.

34:43Jay DyerWe don't

34:44Muslim Lanternbelieve that.

34:44Jay DyerHow does that solve the question? So are they are they ase?

34:47Muslim LanternJust like you cannot separate my love and hate from me.

34:50Jay DyerBut those are parts of you. Allah

34:52Jay DyerThat that... I thought Allah is nothing like creatures. I thought he's nothing

34:57Jay Dyerlike creatures.

34:58Muslim LanternYou said it's a part. So it shows that you are saying You said

35:01Jay Dyerthe parts because

35:02Jay Dyeryou can't understand that I'm putting you into a pretzel bun?

35:05Muslim LanternInsulting like a kid... Like a child. You're just exposing your ignorance. Attributes are not parts. Human beings are

35:09Jay DyerThat's your position. Hate hate

35:12Jay Dyerhate. You call us You contradicted

35:13Jay Dyeryourself when you compared it to parts of your shirt, dude.

35:16Muslim LanternThe problem you're doing now

35:17Jay DyerDoes your shirt have parts?

35:18Muslim LanternTrinity.

35:19Jay DyerDoes your shirt have parts?

35:20Muslim LanternPolytheism.

35:21Muslim LanternYou know the trinity is

35:22Jay DyerAnd now I go back to the dawas script. Now let me go back to the dawas script.

35:26Jay DyerTridentine You you have 99 gods.

35:29Muslim LanternExistence says independent

35:30Muslim Lanternwells there

35:31Jay Dyeris Oh, so now you know the word ase.

35:33Jay DyerNow you know what ase means.

35:34Muslim LanternTrying to compare that.

35:35Jay DyerSo this guy is a snake. Look. He knows what the word ase means. He pretended like he didn't know earlier because now he said the trinity is

35:41Muslim Lanternin They're not

35:42Jay Dyerindependent. We don't believe in independent

35:44Muslim Lanternexistence. Worshiping. When you have

35:45Jay DyerThey're not independent. That's not our position.

35:47Muslim LanternBowing down and prostrating to him. That's not an attribute.

35:50Jay DyerYou don't even you don't even know what... I already refuted this when I gave you monarchical Trinitarianism.

35:54Muslim LanternCommanding the holy spirit. We have a son running the holy spirit.

35:57Jay DyerAll he does, that's monarchical Trinitarianism.

36:00Jay DyerThat's the position I gave you at outset.

36:01Muslim LanternReally losing it and acting like a child, and I think you

36:04SNEAKOgotta No.

36:04Jay DyerBecause you're saying this because you literally didn't answer any of the questions I asked you about the attributes. You said parts like shirts.

36:10Jay DyerShirts have parts, dude. That's your analogy. Shirts.

36:13Muslim LanternI said black. Yeah. I think you said part of your...

36:15Jay DyerYou don't think shirt... You don't... So blackness is not part of your shirt?

36:18Muslim LanternShow me the existence of black.

36:20Jay DyerWhat does

36:21Jay Dyerthat have to do? It's a part. Exist. Say it's accidental. I don't care.

36:25Muslim LanternIt's not. It's not. An attribute. And I I can't make Wait a minute.

36:28Jay DyerSo it's an attribute of a shirt, which is made up of parts.

36:31Muslim LanternOkay. Okay. What what is what is... How can you separate them?

36:33Jay DyerSo you use the analogy to a creature when Allah is nothing like creatures.

36:39Muslim LanternNo. I'll give it an analogy someone like you so they can understand. We can have attributes and Allah can have

36:42Jay DyerBut Allah is nothing like creatures, so it doesn't work.

36:44Muslim LanternHis attributes... That... That's not what we mean. No. Muslim scholar in Islamic history said that it is nothing like means he doesn't have attributes. That's the the No.

36:52Jay DyerIt says that he's nothing like creatures. My life. So so it's a contradiction.

36:57Muslim LanternThe attributes of Allah are maximally perfect. We can have attributes, but unlimited attribute. The creator can have maximum perfect...

37:02Jay DyerI know you believe that, but I'm... You don't even understand the contradiction I'm pointing out.

37:07Jay DyerHow is there a comparison of Allah to creatures creatures when he's nothing like creatures?

37:10Jay DyerYou compared him to your shirt and the parts of your shirt.

37:13Muslim LanternWhat do you mean? What do you mean by nothing like? What do you mean by that?

37:18Muslim LanternLike, honestly,

37:19Muslim Lanternit's such a child's thing. What do you mean by there's nothing like Allah? What do you mean by that?...

37:23Jay DyerSays that in the Quran? In 42,

37:25Jay Dyerit says Allah is nothing like creatures.

37:29Muslim LanternOkay. And I responded to Allah is not...

37:31Jay DyerAnd you gave an analogy of a created shirt and its parts.

37:34Muslim LanternNo. No. I didn't do that.

37:36Jay DyerYes. You did.

37:36Muslim LanternYou... As I said, you're there.

37:37Jay DyerYou just did that. Look. He says, no. I did not take the turn. You said the black on my shirt is an attribute.

37:44Muslim LanternColors...

37:44Muslim LanternI said colors don't exist in abstract.

37:46Jay DyerWhat does that have to tell what?

37:48Muslim LanternThat has to exist has to exist

37:49Jay Dyerin a so is your shirt a creative analogy? Is it a creative analogy?

37:53SNEAKOThe shirt

37:54Jay Dyeris Is it a created analogy?

37:56Muslim LanternColor black is an attribute.

37:58Jay DyerUh-huh. Is it an analogy? Do not exist Creative things

38:01Jay Dyeranalogous to Allah.

38:02Muslim LanternThat's the point. In a circle now. So

38:04Jay DyerNo. You're just not answering. You're avoiding it. So you're using creative things with parts that are composite

38:10Jay Dyeras an analogy to Allah who's nothing like creatures.

38:14Muslim LanternAlright. Let's do timing because as you can see, it's just

38:16Jay DyerBecause he's running over me.

38:18SNEAKOLet's do

38:18Jay Dyerthe timing quick. Do the timing because I can't do it.

38:21Muslim LanternOkay. Because he talked to other people. Reduce the

38:23SNEAKOad hoc. We'll

38:25SNEAKOwe'll go... We'll resume from Jay's question, and then we'll do thirty seconds back and forth each time. I'm gonna be specific with the timer. So, Jay, can you repeat your question? And then Yeah.

38:31Jay DyerThe question was very explicitly.

38:33Jay DyerYou made an analogy to Allah

38:36Jay Dyerand his attributes

38:37Jay Dyerto

38:38Jay Dyera shirt with parts

38:40Jay Dyerand accidental things like colors

38:43Jay Dyerwhen the Quran says twice that Allah is nothing like creatures, so your analogy doesn't work and it doesn't tell us anything. How do you resolve that?

38:51SNEAKOThirty seconds.

38:52Muslim LanternOkay. I never made that. He's... Doesn't he understand what he's talking about. I made an analogy for him about the idea of an attribute. The attributes... Now the analogy is to do... The attribute is not to do with Allah is completing the two.

39:03Jay DyerIt's not

39:03Muslim LanternThe idea is that attributes do not exist in I what to say. Don't Come on. Yeah. He can't do it. Right? The attributes do not exist in abstract. They have to exist to them. Something... They're not separable. They're not parts.

39:13Muslim LanternAnd that's how we look at the attributes of Allah. Allah is not like anything because his attributes are maximally perfect. They're not like ours. Simple. It's very, very simple. And people listen

39:20Jay DyerSo he doesn't even understand the critique.

39:25SNEAKOOkay. Do you

39:25Muslim Lanterndo you wanna with the question thing? So I I should give a

39:28Jay Dyerquestion Once again Yeah. Okay.

39:31SNEAKOOkay. Okay. So now let's let's let Lance respond with the question, but we have to do uninterrupted or else this is a this is a waste of time. So I'll let Lance propose a question here. You you could also respond to what you wanted, the last one, but the thirty seconds back and forth. Lance, go ahead.

39:44Muslim LanternAlright. So we... He agreed that the trinity means that the three persons are co... Equal. We look at Jesus in Mark thirteen thirty two who explicitly

39:52Muslim Lanternmentions and says that he does not know the hour while the father knows the hour. And I can bring a quote from a church father right now who is explaining that this... To superiority

40:01Muslim Lanternof the father over the son did not equal because one of them knows when the hour is gonna happen. The other doesn't know. Jesus gonna say that's human... His human nature. It's irrelevant because he had both natures, divine and human nature. So you cannot come and say that's the human nature. So how does Jesus not know something and you claim that he's equal to the father? And the holy spirit doesn't know as well because the verse says only the father knows. Mark thirteen thirty two. Okay. Do you have a question to follow-up?

40:24Muslim LanternNo. He's he's supposed to answer. Right?

40:26Muslim LanternQuestion, answer. Did you... What was the question? The question is how

40:31Jay DyerIt's about Jesus' maker. Yeah. So I agree equal?

40:33Muslim LanternI hear He understands.

40:34Jay DyerThe Yeah. And, no, I don't answer it the way he thought I was gonna answer. I answer it according to the way Saint Beziel does in letter two thirty five and six where he says that the limitation there is a form of rhetoric or exaggeration, which Jesus does in many places where he says, for example, that there's none good but the father.

40:50Jay DyerDoes that mean that no one else is good? No. It's rhetoric because in other places he also qualifies that and says that the son also is good. He says that people are good. The holy spirit is good. Good man will do this or that. So, no, when he says things like that, we have a consistent

41:04Jay Dyerexegetical pattern as to how we explain those passages,

41:08Jay Dyerand we don't believe the bible contradicts. So there are passages that talk about the subordination,

41:13Jay Dyerwhich if he understood what monarchical trinitarianism is, we recognize a subordination of the son to the father, but not according to essence. So he doesn't understand that. That's different.

41:22Jay DyerThat's a different theology than he has. He thinks that distinction entails, like, differences in terms of ontology.

41:28Jay DyerWe believe that just as a son can share the same nature as his father, he can be subject to the father. That doesn't doesn't mean the father has more human nature than a son. That's an analogy.

41:38Jay DyerYour position, by the way, doesn't make sense in terms of analogies because you said you made an analogy to help me,

41:43Jay Dyerbut your very analogy doesn't work because Allah's attributes

41:47Jay Dyerand his existence are nothing like the thing in... Things in the created order. So your analogy doesn't work. That was the critique, and you just keep I a over a minute.

41:55SNEAKOThat was a bit over a minute. I'll answer it if you'd respond in a minute.

41:58Muslim LanternYeah. Okay. I respond very, very simply. That's how Christians try to remove from the scripture. I just said I can present quotations.

42:05Muslim LanternI can kind of present commentary

42:07Muslim Lanternof people explicitly saying that this is an issue, that that one knows something while the other doesn't know something. But they'll throw it. This is just rhetoric, rhetoric. Like, Jesus says there's no one good but the father. He means ultimately good. Yes. There is no one perfect in his goodness except the father. We agree. There's no issues there. So that verse that Jesus says doesn't have an issue. We also agree when he says he doesn't know that he doesn't know. And you cannot be God and you don't know something because God knows everything all the time. So you cannot run away from the subject in something. And you said, by the way, the son is subject to the father. You believe the son is subject to the Exactly. So he's subject to the father. Mhmm. They're not equal in the sense that they are equal in every position, every way, and every shape. And that's why we say that the... What you call the father is a true god. Jesus is someone who's subjected to him. There is no slim belief.

42:48SNEAKOOkay. Jay, if you can respond in a minute.

42:50Jay DyerYeah. But you're missing the point that at the beginning, I said that I wouldn't immediately commit to your understanding of the words coequal because in some ways, they are equal in terms of power and in terms of nature, that but doesn't mean they're equal in every sense. So that's why I was hesitant to agree to your tricks of terminology there with making it simple and making it easy.

43:09Jay DyerThat's why I use monarchical Trinitarianism,

43:11Jay Dyerwhich, again, to use the analogy of a father or a king and his son, the king and the son, the prince, possess the same natures. The king is not more human than the son, and yet the son still is subject to the father. This is orthodox trinitarianism. I'm not a Roman Catholic. So this is our position, which I stated from the very outset in the first five minutes, but you just didn't know about that. But when you gave your analogy again of the attributes,

43:34Jay Dyeryou didn't answer the question. You avoided it. You ignored it, and you wanted to switch over into the question of Jesus' knowledge, which is fine. I don't have a problem mentioning the fact that Jesus uses rhetoric and exaggerated language all the time. He says, if your hand caused you to sin, cut it off. He's not saying literally cut your hand off. He's also not saying that no one is good but the father. It's rhetoric. So in the same way, he can express that the the father is the sole source of all existence, goodness, knowledge, etcetera.

44:01Jay DyerAnd yet at the same time, the other passages also confirm in John five and six that Jesus has all the same powers, knowledge, and

44:09Jay Dyeractivities as the father. Everything the father has has been committed to the son. So you selectively

44:13Jay Dyerchoose the passages.

44:15Jay DyerAnd I wanna go back to my question then. How do you know which passages

44:19Jay Dyerare the correct passages in the bible and which ones are the corrupted ones when Allah's word cannot be corrupted?

44:26Jay DyerAnd I'm told in,

44:28Jay Dyerfive

44:29SNEAKOthat that was that was well over a minute. I'll mention if you could respond to that question. I'll give you ninety seconds.

44:34Muslim LanternAlright. I'm I'm very happy that... Look. He shows that he changes his position. He agreed when I said, is that the... Trinity, he shaked his head and he said yes. Now he knows that this is gonna be problematic. So he admits that they're not equal, and I'm happy. That's it. That's what we all try

44:45Jay Dyerto what... No. You're just you're just confused on the front. It's not what we're asking.

44:49Muslim LanternDon't

44:50Muslim Lanterninterrupt. Shut up. So like you said to me, I'll say the same thing to you. They're not they're not equal with

44:55Muslim Lanternyour own statement. You said that they are not equal. Yes. They are not equal. Exactly. That's what we believe is Muslims. The father who you call the father is superior to what you call the son. You give an analogy of king and son. Exactly. The king commands the son is superior to the son. It's not equal to him. So I

45:08Jay DyerIn nature. You're lying. I said in nature.

45:12Muslim LanternYou're interrupting again. You're interrupting

45:24Muslim LanternIt is no true God. The only true God is the father. He says the only true God addressing the father is the only true God. And he doesn't get... Which means that any other deity is false. We have all over the Bible Jesus making statements that can be appear divine. I can say it's rhetoric as well. Anyone can say rhetoric. Okay. Whatever verse you gotta bring up is also a rhetoric. And we play this game, whichever verse you don't like. We just call it a rhetoric. The the game with playing with with these things that don't agree with you is you try to escape the position. And the fact that Jesus was subordinate, submissive, so you have people arguing it in the council of Nicaea and other councils because they believe that he was subordinate. Didn't didn't believe he was equal. You have tons of heresy to do that because the trinity makes no logical sense. Now you lied, by the way, and you said there's a verse in John that says that they have the same power, they have the same knowledge, they have the same wisdom, whatever it is. Go ahead and read that verse for us exactly what it says. Now you said in the Quran, I'm responding to what you said. The Quran... Which verse... Which verses are corrupted, which verses are not. Whoever agrees with the Quran, we believe that is therefore accepted and true. Whatever disagrees, we reject. Whoever doesn't agree or disagree, we are agnostic about it. That is the Islamic position given by the prophet and the Quran.

46:26SNEAKONow where is the I'll cut you off there. I'll give you ninety seconds to respond.

46:31Jay DyerYeah. This guy is playing games because he knows that nobody interprets any text as if every single phrase or idea that is expressed is in that single text. The trinity is a doctrine that's derived from all the texts of the scriptures, not from this or that verse. And so he's setting up a false criteria for me to use the exact terminology in any single verse. Jesus says in John sixteen fifteen that everything that the father has has been given to the son. That means all of his existence, all of his powers,

46:59Jay Dyerall of his attributes, the son also shares. I answered his question when he asked,

47:05Jay Dyercoequal. Yeah. Coequal in nature. Hence, the example of the father and the son being distinct persons,

47:11Jay Dyersame in nature, equal in nature. Equal in nature means that equal in the power that proceeds from that nature. So, yes, throughout the gospel of John, every chapter, every book...

47:22Jay DyerExcuse me, every chapter in the book of John includes a reference to the deed of Christ and or a reference to the triad.

47:28Jay DyerNo, Goofus. That doesn't mean the word trinity is in the book. It means the concept, the teaching of the trinity is in the book just like it's throughout the Old Testament, not the words. It doesn't have to have the words. That's your criteria that you made up for me. Now I asked you a specific question about you going to the text and the prior revelation of what your your your criteria

47:48Jay Dyerwas, you ignored it. You didn't answer it. I want to know That's right. What is your criteria

47:53Jay Dyerfor knowing when in the Old Testament it's true and when it's false? Is it not the Quran, the very thing in question?

48:00SNEAKONinety seconds for lantern.

48:01Muslim LanternAlright. So, clearly, he said it is not from a part of the thing. It's derived from everything. It is not... He's essentially saying it's not clear, which is what we love to hear, is that the doctrine of the trinity is not clear in the bible. That's that's why I said I can present many quotes from church father, which they disagree with one another. What they believe the son was and the father was, you had all of these councils. You had all of these disagreements, heretical people who were killed because the the the idea of the church is not there. I never asked him for the word. He he, like, tried to throw a man as if I ask him, where is the word trinity? I never said that. I said the concept. That's why I started by defining. He didn't answer John seventeen three because he knows it's a thorn

48:36Muslim Lanternin in his side when I said Jesus said the only true God is the father. He did not respond to that. All he completely ignored it. I responded to his question about the verses, which verses I said to you, whoever agrees with Islam, generally, the Quran and hadith, we will accept that this statement is true. So when it says in John... In in in Deuteronomy six four that there's one God we accept that is true. No problem. Anything which we disagree, we will reject. Like, if something says Jesus died, we could say that his false is corrupted. That is changed. Now already already biblical scholars agree that the the the bible has been corrupted. I don't need to do any... A lot of research regarding that. Now you said God's words doesn't change change that verse. You quoted is talking about Allah's promise, and you're quoting it out of

49:15Muslim Lanternout of context. Like I say, I don't change my words. I keep my words. We're talking about promises. We're not talking about the revelation of the previous scriptures because the Quran already explains the revelation of the previous scriptures is is... Has been changed. Now he said whatever the father has been given has been given to me, that's clearly not the case because Jesus did not know, and he said he didn't know. And he said only the father knew, and what he means by that is not talking about attributes.

49:36SNEAKOPerfect. Jade, ninety seconds.

49:38Jay DyerYeah. I noticed he did not answer the exact challenge I gave him. I asked him what the epistemic criteria was, and he said that, the Quran pro... Backs up the promises of prior revelation when it's with the... So in other words, the Quran proves the Quran by citing the Quran passages in the Old Testament.

49:53Jay DyerAnd yet we read in the Quran that it actually says that you can go to the prior revelation to see that the new revelation is consistent with it. We have revealed to you, o prophet, the book of truth, confirmation in the previous scriptures

50:07Jay Dyerand a supreme authority upon them. So you judge between them what Allah has revealed,

50:13Jay Dyerand now he's admitting,

50:14Jay Dyerwhat was his source? Many scholars say the Bible's corrupted.

50:18Jay DyerOh, really? So many scholars who are atheist unbelieving is what you go to, not to your prophet Muhammad who said that you can go to the prior Jewish Torah scriptures and Christian scriptures.

50:29Jay DyerThose scriptures confirm

50:31Jay Dyersupposedly

50:32Jay Dyerwhat's in the Quran. You just said, no. They're all corrupt. So Allah and Muhammad are directing me to go to a corrupt book to prove your book. You don't see how silly that is. And then when I asked you for a standard, you said the standard is the Quran, but the thing in question is the Quran. So you're in a circle,

50:49Jay Dyera circle,

50:50Jay DyerAnd it's a fallacy to appeal to authorities to say, we all know the bible that's corrupted. It's all. That's a fallacy. I know you guys don't know what fallacies are. They're haram in Islam, logical fallacy. Seconds. Right?

51:01Jay DyerLogic is haram. So what's the standard again?

51:06SNEAKOOkay. Ninety seconds for Muslim lantern.

51:09SNEAKOHe said they, I didn't give

51:10Muslim Lanternhim a criteria. I clearly did. I said, who agrees with the Quran and hadith. It it is... We accept it. Whoever disagrees or reject it. He said Quran proves the... I would not... Nobody here is talking about proving the Quran. Nobody's also talking about

51:21Muslim Lanternthe the Quran proving the bible. You're just misunderstanding things here, and you're just

51:25SNEAKOcomplaining terms, and you're

51:26Muslim Lanternjust going around in circle. Nobody's talking about anything proving anything. I already explained to you what the word confirmed there means. You clearly don't understand what you're saying. There's nothing there that says that is proving it. The first you did is refute... You mentioned is refuting. I was laughing. How could you read this verse? I think it's supporting you. First of the chapter five of the 48, which you were reading is refuting you. It is literally saying, judge between them with the Quran with what Allah has revealed to you and do not listen to their desires. And the next verse is the same thing. And you read yourself for this is a supreme authority over it, which means that whatever the Quran dictate dictates is a supreme authority over the bible. That's exactly what we've been saying all this time. I'm I'm laughing. How could you read that verse? I think that it's supporting you. Now this is just... It's it's completely rid... Ridiculous. So now

52:06Muslim Lanternthe Quran

52:07Muslim Lanternsays it's also corrupted. It's mentioned in multiple parts. For example, the Quran says in chapter two verse 75 and mention chapter two verse 17, I have derived the the scripture with their own hand and they claim it is from God. You said logic is haram. Nobody said anything about logic is haram. Again, coming back to 17...

52:23Muslim LanternChapter John 17 verse three,

52:26Muslim Lanternwhere it says the only true... Again, you're avoiding the question. You're running away from the question. Also, we have in John chapter 20 verse 17. He says he has a god. He says, I'm going back to my god and your god. So how can you be god and you have a god? He didn't say I

52:37SNEAKOhave a person. I have

52:38Muslim Lanterna father. He said, father, I'm god. So he has a god above him, he believes the only true God is the father, and he doesn't have the knowledge of the hour. And this is what we mean by him not being equal to the father.

52:47SNEAKOOkay, Jay. Ninety seconds. Then after this, I'll go Jay, then Lancer ninety seconds each, and then we could do closing statements

52:53SNEAKOfinishing

52:53Jay Dyerwith

52:53SNEAKOa Muslim Lancer because Jay Dyer started. So let's go ninety seconds, Jay,

52:57Jay DyerYeah. The argument in both of those passages does not judge the prior revelation on the Quran. The argument is that that you can go again to

53:05Jay Dyertwo eighty five. The messenger believes in what has been revealed to him is from his lord as so so do all the believers, his angels, and his books. The books that are referenced in many other passages as well, this includes six one fifteen eighteen twenty seven. These are the words of Allah previously in the Torah and the angeel, they cannot be corrupted and changed. He believes they're corrupted and changed. Why? Because atheist scholars said so.

53:30Jay DyerAnd guess what? The same atheist scholars don't believe in his books and his Koran. They all all the time reject. So it's a double standard. They always do this. They have a double standard of citing the atheist scholars who reject the bible, but also reject the Koran.

53:44Jay DyerAnd your Koran does say many times over that I can go and check the previous revelation to be consistent. And then when we find out that it's not consistent,

53:53Jay Dyeryou say, oh, that's because it's corrupted. So I'm supposed to look at a corrupted thing to confirm in a non corrupted thing. That makes no sense. That's why when I said what's the epistemic criteria to know the Quran is true, he said the Quran.

54:06Jay DyerThat's a circle. You explicitly

54:08Jay Dyeraffirm the very thing I wanted you affirm, that it is a circle. You said no one wants to know... No one's asking what's true. I'm asking how do we know it's true. What do mean no one's asking this question? I'm asking you this question for the third time. How do we know it's true? And in regard to in regard to John seventeen three, I said monarchical Trinitarianism.

54:24Jay DyerJesus does submit to the father. That doesn't mean he has a different nature than the father any more than a son submitted to a father means he has a different nature.

54:32SNEAKOOkay. Most of my eyes are ninety seconds.

54:34Muslim LanternAmazing. You saw he jumped from another verse of the Quran because he realized that the reference was wrong.

54:38SNEAKONo. It was also

54:39Muslim LanternThey both of them. He's interrupting verse

54:42Muslim Lanternbecause he knows he's he's being deceased. And

54:44Muslim Lanternthe and the other verse that he brought also has nothing to do with what he's saying. Says we believe Books.

54:48Jay DyerWhat are

54:48Muslim Lanternthe books? This is the books. To the books, there are previous revelations that have been released to previous prophets. When we talk about the

54:54Jay DyerWhich are what?

54:54Muslim LanternIn that verse.

54:54Jay DyerWhich are what?

54:55Muslim LanternRead it in the book.

54:56Muslim LanternYou can read you can read it in context, and everyone can read that verse. So you can read it in context.

55:00SNEAKOYou will

55:00Muslim Lanternsee it's talking... You can read it, and you can see it's explicitly talking about the promise of Allah. You see how interrupting he is because he knows he's being destroyed. Now he says if if if if the says the bible is... Yes. So we agree. I'm happy we agree that the the scholars and academia agree that the bible has been changed corrupting. There's no original, etcetera. Now the the... These same atheist scholars. And in academia, you will see that they admit that I've made videos about this before. How the Quran is preserved? We have doctor angelic and. She's not Muslim. We have doctor

55:24Muslim LanternYou have many people I can mention now. I can mention many, many names of different people who do believe who are atheists or not Muslims. But I can make that the Quran is preserved. There's a whole book written on that on the manuscripts, for example, manuscript and how they show the preservation of the Quran. Now the Quran never said the bible is consistent. You're saying we been talking about the the the...

55:41Muslim LanternHow to prove the Quran. We never talked about the Quran. Talking about the bible is corrupt. There's nothing to do with proving the Quran. Proving the Quran has a... I have a video on my channel. Everyone is welcome to watch. It's called Companic Evidences for the truth for the Islam where we see the prophecies in the Quran. Hadith, say all of these different things. I don't know what you mean by proving. Maybe you're talking about different thing. Now

55:57Muslim Lanternwe are talking about the corruption of the bible. The bible has been changed. The bible has been corrupted. It's accepted in academia. I'm happy you threw your whole religion under the bus. Oh, I agree that the sun is subordinate to the father. I agree. And I want and I want

56:08SNEAKOall Christians to listen to this. He's through everything other than us.

56:11Muslim LanternHe said, yes. We agree.

56:11SNEAKOHe's subordinate to the father. Excellent. That's what

56:13Muslim Lanternwe believe as Muslims. Jesus is submitting to the father, and that's what a Muslim is. Prophet Muhammad was submitting to Allah, and that is what a Muslim is.

56:19SNEAKOOkay. I'll give all these statements to Jay. Let... Let's do five minutes each. Five minutes for Jay and then five minutes for most of lines. We'll wrap it up here. K.

56:26Muslim LanternThat's

56:27Jay DyerYeah. Six one fifteen. Again,

56:29Jay Dyerneither of the passages that he's talking about confirm what he's saying. Six one fifteen, the word of the lord is perfected in truth and justice. None can change allah's words.

56:38Jay DyerHe just admitted that the words of Allah in the previous passage, you heard him say it in the last section there that, no, those verses those verses of the books, the mess... That... That's talking about the previous revelations of the prophets, which he just said is corrupted when his own Quran says the word of Allah right there cannot ever be corrupted. So he's smarter than Allah and the prophet according to his attachment to unbelieving scholars.

57:03Jay DyerWhat I pointed out was his double standard and the fact that he's gonna appeal to the same scholars. Oh, but there's a bunch of other scholars that like the Koran. This is a fallacy of authority. Appealing to scholars is a fallacy of authority if you think that proves a position. You argued that there's a bunch of scholars that debate the early church. So what? That has nothing to do with proving a position. You could bring in scholars to back up a position, but they don't prove anything that's called the fallacy of appeal to authority.

57:28Jay DyerSo multiple times, he's made countless fallacies. He doesn't even know what they are. I point them out and he laughs and talks past it. He appealed to... He said that I made many fallacies talking about this problem of Allah's relationship to his attributes of one and many, which, by the way, he believes in an uncreated foot and uncreated shin if he's a salafi. If he doesn't, then he has to metaphorically interpret those things. Wait a minute. Now he's afforded the ability to metaphorically interpret interpret these texts, but he doesn't grant that to us when we talk about these passages where Jesus clearly uses rhetoric,

57:58Jay Dyerclearly uses exaggeration. No. No. No. We're not allowed to do that. And by the way, he did try to say that I have to prove in John John one because there's no mention of three hypostasis.

58:07Jay DyerHypostasis is mentioned in Hebrews one where it's identified that the son is the eternal son of the father

58:13Jay Dyerand he's equally divine. He constantly misunderstood what monarchical trinitarianism is because he doesn't know what it is because it recognizes

58:20Jay Dyerthis distinction between the father and the son in terms of monarchia.

58:24Jay DyerThat doesn't mean that there's a difference in essence. So his whole argumentation this entire time was assuming that distinction

58:30Jay Dyerbetween the persons necessarily entails a distinction of s or a diminution of essence, which I said from the very opening statement is not our position.

58:38Jay DyerSo, again,

58:39Jay DyerAllah's words are not corruptible.

58:41Jay DyerHe believes they've been corrupted.

58:43Jay DyerAllah is one, but you heard him use analogies to the blackness of his shirt to help me,

58:50Jay Dyerbut his own Quran says that all is nothing like things in creation. I'm pretty sure your shirt is a creature. I'm pretty sure black is a part or an attribute of a shirt. So your own analogies refute you, and that's why I'm constantly calling you out on a double standard.

59:06Jay DyerI'm not saying you don't answer by stating your position, but like many people who are no good at debate, you think answering your position is refuting

59:14Jay Dyeran argument calling out a contradiction.

59:17Jay DyerI'm arguing your position

59:19Jay Dyercontradicts.

59:20Jay DyerI'm not asking you to restate the position.

59:23Jay DyerI'm saying your position contradicts in many ways.

59:26Jay DyerThese things contradict. The word of Allah cannot be corrupted or changed. You just said the prior revelations were corrupted and changed.

59:35SNEAKOOkay. I'll give a final statement to to Muscle Lantern. He went around three minutes. If you can keep it three to four, I think, to be fair.

59:42Muslim LanternAll good. No problem. Alright. So you mentioned chapter six of the Quran. And as I said already, there's two only... Two pieces in the Quran talks about the words of Allah. Chapter six and another... Chapter chapter 18 of the Quran. One explicitly talks about the Quran, mentions the ayah, the verses of Allah, specifically referring to the Quran. And the other one which he quoted in in in six, it talks about it talks about the judgment and the promise of Allah. How do you know? Read the verse before. Allah says in the Quran, is

1:00:07Muslim Lanternthere any judge that I'll take other than Allah? It's talking about the judgment of Allah.

1:00:10Muslim LanternAnd then it says that that

1:00:13Muslim Lanternand the the promise of your Lord or the word, the judgment of your Lord has been fulfilled. What is that talking about? I'm talking about verses being... Definitely

1:00:20Muslim Lanternnot talking about.

1:00:21Jay DyerIt says book. It says book. Book.

1:00:25Jay DyerYou're lying.

1:00:38Muslim LanternYou should... Other than I let you speak, I'm interrupt you. So you should be muted.

1:00:40Jay DyerIt says book. It says book. I don't know if can see it.

1:00:43SNEAKORestate your time. Go ahead.

1:00:45Muslim LanternCan you please mute him? Because he's gonna try and He's gonna... Yeah. You too. Alright. Okay. So, again, we'll say this very, very, very simply. The verse of the Quran, I I mentioned it. I mentioned the verse, and open any exegesis. Open the exegesis of the scholars. Nobody have said in Islamic history that this is referring to the previous scriptures. And I give evidences why this is not referring to the previous scriptures, that they are corrupt, and I give evidences. He gave evidence by himself, He's quoting the verse in chapter five. Also, I give chapter two, chapter five, verse 75 under

1:01:11SNEAKOIt says both. Which was clearly this guy doesn't know what

1:01:13Muslim Lanternhe's talking about. Now he said, oh, we do metaphors. When did I do metaphors? Or if you're this, if you're that. You don't even know who I am. That's that's the problem. You come to

1:01:36SNEAKOunderstand this. He doesn't understand this.

1:01:37Jay DyerThis is He's freaking out because he got

1:01:40Muslim Lanternbought in. What we call UK waffle in The UK. Just someone waffles few words. He thinks he's making big words so we can confuse the audience.

1:01:47Jay DyerNever answered any objections. And and He's not allowed to... He... You have to have a school. There's no such thing as no no school or aqidah. So he's actually

1:01:56Jay Dyerhe's actually acting like he doesn't have an aqidah.

1:01:58Muslim LanternSo there

1:01:58SNEAKOis no contradiction. So I

1:01:59Muslim Lanternwas refuting him. He came to the black and white shirt and all all... I already told him there's an analogy to do with the attributes not to do with Allah. I'm not trying to say the shirt

1:02:06Jay Dyeris Allah. It's a analogy to attributes not to Allah. Be debating anytime. Then the analogy doesn't do anything.

1:02:12Muslim LanternThis guy's a joke. Look. Jay left defending Jay.

1:02:14Jay DyerThis guy's a joke.

1:02:15Muslim LanternSupport the day. He started to use some waffling. Oh, the essence is not as. This is a

1:02:19Muslim Lanternmatter. We can see The

1:02:21Jay Dyerwhole text Latin scriptures.

1:02:22Muslim LanternBefore all of this philosophy have been introduced and brought

1:02:25Jay DyerNow it's philosophy. Is

1:02:27Muslim Lanternthat clearly Jesus was supported, and that's why we have the earliest groups like the epiunites and Nazareth even addressing They were polyhierarchical. Did not believe the Tridentine beliefs. We have the church fathers, and I I said I can easily give more quotes. They didn't agree with the concept that Jay has in his mind. So simply, Jay has put Jesus under the bus from a position that he believes in the Trinity, and he clearly admitted he doesn't know the hour. It is not the same. And the thing is he's contradicting himself. He says he doesn't know the hour, but in the same time, they're not

1:02:52SNEAKOequal in this, but at the same time, they're

1:02:54Muslim Lanternthe same. He just keeps contradicting himself and going in the same circle. So is

1:02:57SNEAKOit metaphorical, or he doesn't really know the hour and they're subordinate to one another? He doesn't know his

1:03:01Muslim Lanternown positions. And with that

1:03:02Jay DyerI answered everything that he... Nobody's buying this except the

1:03:06Muslim Lanternlowest quality. Jesus who he said he's coming back to. He says, I'm going back to my god. We ask you to worship that lord. That Jesus came to, and he said he's gonna worship. He's gonna go back to. That is the lord that we call you to worship. The lord of Jesus, Moses, Noah, prophet Muhammad, and peace be upon all of the prophets and messengers. And I conclude here with this cooking and because it's burning in the kitchen now. Alright? I'll go ahead.

1:03:24Jay DyerBefore before before

1:03:26Jay Dyerwe head up,

1:03:27SNEAKOhold up, Ajay. I wanna get... Because you... We... There was interruptions.

1:03:31SNEAKOI did say that it was gonna be the closing statements, but because it seems like there's more, do you think we can do one more back and forth two minutes each? Is that okay with both parties?

1:03:39Muslim LanternNo. I think that's... It's good to edit here. I don't wanna go more

1:03:42Jay DyerOh, he doesn't wanna go anymore. Right.

1:03:44Muslim LanternIt's It's always because he

1:03:45Jay Dyerknows I'm gonna burst.

1:03:46Muslim LanternRepeating the same thing every No.

1:03:47Jay DyerI have another... Three seventy eight says the book is not corruptions.

1:03:50Muslim LanternNo. No.

1:03:50Jay DyerHe Three seventy eight says the book is not... So he doesn't want anymore because he knows he got body.

1:03:55Muslim LanternWe already had a debate.

1:03:56SNEAKOSo now you're losing and crying. Yeah. I appreciate you.

1:03:58Jay DyerBefore bringing up more of your problems? I'm not crying.

1:04:02Jay DyerDude, the... You're the one snickering with that condescending giggle because you got cooked.

1:04:05Muslim LanternSnick or

1:04:06Jay DyerIt's all rhetoric.

1:04:07SNEAKOJay,

1:04:09SNEAKOit it was nice to meet you, and I I appreciate you coming on here. This is much more simple than the the earlier beta. I hope to do this again. I think this this was Yeah. Any fast paced, and it was it was enjoyable.

1:04:18Jay DyerAnytime.

1:04:22Jay DyerYeah. What a joke, dude. That guy was pitiful, dude.

1:04:26Jay DyerAnd, yeah, I I butted him many times because his whole thing was resting on misinterpreting

1:04:31Jay Dyerand misunderstanding

1:04:32Jay Dyerand ignoring. And I hope everybody heard him completely collapse on the attributes

1:04:38Jay Dyerand no idea what

1:04:41Jay Dyermonarchical trinitarianism

1:04:42Jay Dyeris and what the position is. The passages that we're talking about in the Quran do not say that... They're only talking about the Quran.

1:04:49Jay DyerThis is talking about the text of the Jews and the Christians,

1:04:53Jay Dyerand it's here saying that do not say the book is corrupt. It is not corrupt.

1:04:57Jay DyerAnd on that last passage, he said, this is talking about allah's judgments, not a book.

1:05:02Jay DyerIt said a book.

1:05:06Jay DyerAllah has revealed to you the Torah and the gospel, three three.

1:05:11Jay DyerAllah's words cannot be corrupted.

1:05:16Jay DyerAnyway, I hope everybody clips the heck out heck out of that and shows

1:05:20Jay Dyerthe parts where he...

1:05:23Jay DyerEspecially, I felt like on the attributes,

1:05:25Jay Dyerlike,

1:05:26Jay Dyerhe was completely demolished.

1:05:28Jay DyerSo everybody should clip that. I hope that goes viral. We got some super chats here.

1:05:34Jay DyerZalmonix

1:05:35Jay Dyerfive. I'm a lawyer and a Christian. I've been practicing. You're the best debater I've ever seen. This is even in litigation. Thank you. I mean, I think debate

1:05:43Jay Dyerand,

1:05:44Jay Dyeryou know, law, they overlap quite a bit. In fact, we were watching a movie last night that had a lot of courtroom stuff going on, and Jamie was asking me... We were talking about debate related issues.

1:05:56Jay DyerYeah. It is interesting. You you could probably find a lot of parallels with

1:06:01Jay Dyerthe way that I go about and do debate and the way that lawyers do stuff.

1:06:07Jay DyerI don't actually know a lot about, you know, law and litigation and all that, but, again, I do imagine that there's a lot of of overlap there. But, you know, really, it's...

1:06:18Jay DyerI guess

1:06:20Jay Dyerthe comparison would be, like, a lawyer wants to probably trip somebody up in their,

1:06:27Jay Dyerstatements.

1:06:28Jay DyerAnd

1:06:29Jay DyerI'm kinda doing the same thing,

1:06:31Jay Dyerexcept that I'm also looking for not just will they trip up, but are they violating the laws of logic. Right? So that's a big part of it. You noticed that guy never...

1:06:41Jay DyerHe didn't even understand any of the fallacies, what the fallacies are, why it's even wrong to make fallacies. This is the the death knell of anybody in a debate.

1:06:50Jay DyerFallacies might not be that relevant in a litigation setting or in a in a in a courtroom, although they might be to some degree, but that's an interesting question.

1:07:04Jay DyerImagine they have some overlap with the with the courtroom setting. Jeremiah James, $5. Muslim lantern hasn't had any oil since Mohammed was with Aisha. Oh.

1:07:14Jay DyerRachel Wilson, $100. Thank you so much, Rachel. Appreciate that. That's a big fat super j. You don't have to give me that, but that's really sweet of you. Appreciate it.

1:07:22Jay DyerAnd I didn't want... I hope Andrew didn't think that I was, like, streaming over

1:07:27Jay Dyerhis

1:07:28Jay Dyerdebate. I actually forgot that he was doing that debate tonight. I thought that was, like, several days in the future.

1:07:35Jay DyerSo, anyway, I didn't mean to step over, you know, you guys in terms of streaming time, but thank you for that. But it sounds like it was kind of a a... It didn't go as planned there. Well, Emmanuel, $5. Thank you for the extra time and patience.

1:07:47Jay DyerYeah. I mean, again, I've already been debating for four hours straight. So

1:07:51Jay Dyerhow long was this one? I don't even know. Another hour and a half, it looks like.

1:07:59Jay DyerYeah.

1:08:01Jay DyerWhat did you guys think about this?

1:08:03Jay DyerHow did how do you guys think Muslim Lantern did? I really feel like he was

1:08:08Jay Dyercollapsing on the attributes part.

1:08:11Jay DyerBecause everything he said about the attributes was like...

1:08:18Jay DyerWhat do you mean that's embarrassing, Jay? Church fathers under the bus? What are you talking about?

1:08:22Jay DyerI didn't throw the church fathers under the bus. What I said was

1:08:26Jay Dyerhe was oversimplifying

1:08:28Jay Dyerit by saying, do the church fathers teach the trinity,

1:08:31Jay Dyerand do they teach it without debate? And I said, no.

1:08:35Jay DyerThey teach that the persons are distinct and that there's the divinity of Christ, but they do debate things,

1:08:42Jay Dyerand so that's why I didn't agree to his oversimplified

1:08:46Jay Dyerquestions. So Muslims, you notice Daniel did the exact same thing, didn't he? Daniel did the exact same thing where Daniel said,

1:08:53Jay DyerI want the simple answer. Look how simple Islam is. You guys have complex, difficult doctrines. But the reality is Muslims also have complex doctrines. And so he lied when he said, what is this aqita? Don't know. He knows what aqita is. It's the different schools.

1:09:08Jay DyerHe knows that there's different traditions and that they've killed each other over these things.

1:09:13Jay DyerAnd that's why he tried to deflect away from... Well, you tell me the four principles of the bautekalimum.

1:09:18Jay DyerLike, as that that has anything to do with the argument I'm making about his position. So that was all deflections.

1:09:25Jay DyerBryce...

1:09:26Jay DyerBut you notice what he... He did the same thing as as Daniel by arguing that

1:09:30Jay Dyeryou set something up as

1:09:33Jay Dyeran overly simple... It... It's called a complex

1:09:41Jay Dyerfallacy of oversimplication.

1:09:43Jay DyerThat's what it's called. Right? So the trinity is a a complex doctrine,

1:09:46Jay Dyerand so you say something like... I'll give you an example of this. Where's the verse that proves the doctrine of the trinity? There isn't one. You see? The trinity can't be proven from scripture.

1:09:57Jay DyerWell,

1:09:58Jay Dyerthe argument assumes that the trinity is a doctrine that would only come from a verse. So it's a fallacy. Right?

1:10:20Jay DyerOversimplification

1:10:21Jay Dyerfallacy is the fallacy of the single cause. Oversimplifies the complex issue to imply that a single cause produces the same effect. It doesn't have to be causal. It can also be a false either or. Right? Either the church fathers taught

1:10:33Jay Dyerthe doctrine of the the trinity or

1:10:35Jay Dyeror they didn't.

1:10:37Jay DyerWell, the church fathers did teach the doctrine of the trinity, and there was a lot of debate,

1:10:41Jay Dyerbut he was trying to make it like, if there's debate, they didn't teach it and it wasn't clear. Remember Daniel made this point? He said there was debate,

1:10:49Jay Dyerand if there's debate over it, it's not true. And then Daniel turned around and said, Muslims have debated this. Oh, but wait a minute, Daniel. You said that debate means that it's not true if people are debating it. So you see how silly these people are?

1:11:01Jay DyerJohn z, a $100. Thank you so much. You destroyed that clown. God bless... Thank you. God god bless you as well.

1:11:07Jay DyerMuch appreciating those fat super chats.

1:11:11Jay DyerCards, $1.

1:11:13Jay DyerTo confirm the Quran, you go to the Quran. Yes. He said that, didn't he? He said no one here is asking about proof of the Quran. I'm asking about proof of the Quran. What are you talking about? What do mean nobody's asking? That's the very thing I asked you more than once.

1:11:26Jay DyerYeah. You go to the Quran to pray the Quran. Exactly.

1:11:29Jay DyerExactly.

1:11:30Jay DyerThe logic is haram. Exactly.

1:11:33Jay DyerLogic is haram. Jake Bernitz, $33. I recently had a debate with a Muslim. He made a similar point saying that the son is subordinate to the father, so they're not equal. So something can be subordinate and equal and distinct in different ways, and every analogy that I gave was to that effect.

1:11:49Jay DyerA father and a son are distinct. The son is the subordinate to the father, but they have equal nature.

1:11:57Jay DyerThe king can invest the prince with all the powers of the king.

1:12:02Jay DyerThey're distinct persons,

1:12:04Jay Dyerbut the king can grant to the prince all the powers of the king.

1:12:10Jay DyerSo they have the same nature, human nature, and all the same powers.

1:12:15Jay DyerRemember he said there is no verse where Jesus say the father hath given all the power unto the son. Yeah. There is. I read it.

1:12:22Jay DyerJohn 16.

1:12:23Jay DyerAnd then he's like, this doesn't say trinity.

1:12:26Jay DyerDoesn't say hypostasis.

1:12:28Jay DyerYeah. Hypostasis is used in other passages, dude.

1:12:33Jay DyerPlease go into more depth about the trinity. So the people that are interested in this, all of the monarchical Trinitarian talks of doctor Beau Branson cover this

1:12:42Jay Dyerin great detail.

1:12:53Jay DyerSo if you go to bobranson.com

1:12:56Jay Dyerand you come over here to me... I think it's media. Yeah. So go... Beaubranson.com

1:13:01Jay Dyermedia appearances. And on this page is a five part lecture series

1:13:09Jay Dyerand then other, interviews

1:13:12Jay Dyeron monarchical Trinitarianism.

1:13:20Jay DyerYou know, the funny thing is that the very first thing that I said

1:13:24Jay Dyeranswers half of his objections.

1:13:26Jay DyerI, in the first five minutes, mentioned monarchical Trinitarianism,

1:13:31Jay Dyerand then he spent half of the damn debate

1:13:34Jay Dyerarguing against

1:13:36Jay Dyertexts that prove monarchical Trinitarianism.

1:13:39Jay DyerHave you ever brought up first John five seven to a Muslim?

1:13:44Jay DyerI don't know. Let's see.

1:13:47Jay DyerI don't usually because they don't care on... Most of time, they don't care about

1:13:51Jay Dyerthe text. Oh, that's the y'all aning, comma.

1:13:54Jay DyerI mean, they're gonna just say, well, that's not in all the old manuscripts.

1:13:58Jay DyerSo... But, I mean, there's plenty of passage that teach the trinity. We don't... It's not like we will have to have the y'all aning, comma.

1:14:06Jay DyerSo it looks like a lot of people are saying they think that he's one of the worst debaters.

1:14:13Jay DyerHe was definitely pretty sneaky, slippery.

1:14:18Jay DyerWho's... Is he one of the worst?

1:14:20Jay DyerI don't... I mean, that's my that's my only experience with that dude. I've never never heard or seen anything about him. So he... He's kinda sneaky,

1:14:29Jay Dyerhence, sneak o, but Alula, $3. Christ is king. Yeah. Absolutely.

1:14:38Jay DyerYeah. I know the the the yawning comma is...

1:14:41Jay DyerI don't... I I mean, we caught... We covered that in the James Snap interview.

1:14:47Jay DyerSneko mods will block Christians in the chat. Well...

1:14:51Jay DyerYeah. I mean, look. Islam is not a position that

1:14:55Jay Dyerrelies on logic.

1:14:57Jay DyerIt's a position that relies on trickery, tomfoolery,

1:15:00Jay Dyerand snickery.

1:15:02Jay DyerSo what do you expect?

1:15:05Jay DyerSo

1:15:06Jay Dyervote in the poll. There's a poll.

1:15:12Jay DyerSo... Yeah. I mean, he just basically went to all the classic Dawah script stuff. What's funny about all of that, I think that really all the Dahwa script stuff and all of what they do, it's really just meant to, like,

1:15:23Jay Dyertry to capture the low tier,

1:15:26Jay Dyerlowest common denominator audience to bring them in who are... Aren't interested in any kind of, like, distinctions or any kind of nuance,

1:15:35Jay Dyerand it's just intended really to be a way to capture low tier stuff.

1:15:40Jay DyerAnd then when they deal with people who aren't low tier,

1:15:43Jay Dyerit becomes very obvious,

1:15:46Jay DyerI think.

1:15:54Jay DyerOh, that's the poll from their stream.

1:15:57Jay DyerOh, they have a stream? Well,

1:16:00Jay DyerI'm sure all the Muslims are in their stream.

1:16:02Jay DyerSo

1:16:06Jay Dyerso here...

1:16:07Jay DyerLet's see here. Yeah. Definitely, if you want to, yeah, definitely go debate. I mean... Oops. Here we go. I mean, vote. Excuse me. Not debate.

1:16:21Jay DyerWho won? I think I won.

1:16:24Jay DyerSo I'm gonna say I won.

1:16:26Jay DyerBut I should do my own poll because I'm sure there's a bunch of Muslims. Silent $1.

1:16:31Jay DyerIt's crazy how Lantern was using fallacies when he twists your words

1:16:36Jay Dyerand

1:16:38Jay Dyerjust lies, and the Muslims eat it up. They don't actually read their sources. Correct.

1:16:44Jay Dyer$5.

1:16:48Jay DyerI recently listened to all the Beau Branson lectures on that page because you recommended it. It blew my mind. It's very interesting. Yeah. Exactly.

1:16:55Jay DyerDoctor Branson's

1:16:57Jay Dyermonarchical Trinitarian talks are, are

1:17:01Jay Dyeressential.

1:17:02Jay DyerSo

1:17:07Jay Dyerdefinitely head on over here and watch these.

1:17:15Jay DyerBut that's okay. I mean, the people that wanna be idiots and they wanna be, you know, low tier and they wanna believe stupid stuff, you're you're never gonna change people that are not open to

1:17:25Jay Dyerwhat's true.

1:17:30Jay DyerYeah. Be sure and vote so that these people don't

1:17:33Jay Dyerjust promote their own Muslim polls,

1:17:36Jay Dyerwhich is I'm sure what they're gonna do. But

1:17:40Jay Dyerstraw poll here.

1:17:44Jay DyerAnd keep in mind, I had no idea what's going on. I didn't even I didn't even know what topic until I went in the room.

1:17:50Jay DyerI've already been debating for four hours, so

1:17:54Jay Dyerthere we go.

1:17:56Jay DyerTomate...

1:17:57Jay DyerOh, no. Excuse me. Italian king, 10. Good job, Jay. Crisis king.

1:18:01Jay DyerLove and forgiveness,

1:18:03Jay Dyerthey're lacking.

1:18:04Jay DyerNowadays,

1:18:05Jay Dyeryeah, I would agree with that. Hunter Tyler, $3.55, $1. Muslims reject Paul. Paul is a transgressor

1:18:12Jay Dyerin Galatians one. It absolutely wrecks Islam and shows Mohammed as a false prophet. Yeah. Doctor

1:18:18Jay Dyerfidegian, Anais, I have made this point many times that

1:18:23Jay Dyerthe

1:18:24Jay Dyerfinality of revelation,

1:18:26Jay Dyerwhich is taught very clearly even in the Old Testament, when the messiah comes, the messianic era, well, there was an end of divine revelation.

1:18:32Jay DyerK? There's no new revelations after the death of the apostles. That's it. So that right there cuts off all of the future cults, Mormons,

1:18:42Jay DyerMohammedans,

1:18:43Jay Dyerit doesn't matter. Eric z, $3.03 37. You're very patient arguing with a wall like that. Well, they always play this game where they're like, oh, we want to have a conversation. We want to have a conversation. And then they immediately start with all the tricks because

1:18:54Jay Dyertheirs is a system and a position

1:18:57Jay Dyerthat has to rely on a bunch of tricks.

1:18:59Jay DyerSo we don't rely on tricks over here. I will interrupt people, and I'll call people out when they start lying and saying something I didn't say. Jake Burnett's $1. What do you think the Muslims insist on everything being simple? Because they're appealing to simple people. The whole position is about

1:19:13Jay Dyermaking it simple as a sales pitch for simple minded people.

1:19:18Jay DyerSo the only people who fall for this are people who are unfortunately not very sophisticated. Now I don't wanna make it only an intellectual thing because not only intellectual.

1:19:26Jay DyerRight? There's also a spiritual delusion component of this too. But spiritual delusion affects

1:19:31Jay Dyerour intellect, you see. It can darken the intellect so that we don't have discernment.

1:19:36Jay DyerThey always say that if you can explain the trinity to be simple, then it's proven, and if not, it's fallacious. Yeah. This this is a

1:19:44Jay Dyeroversimplification

1:19:45Jay Dyerfallacy.

1:19:47Jay DyerIt's also an arbitrary expectation.

1:19:50Jay DyerLike, I could make the same point.

1:19:51Jay DyerMake Allah and his relationship to his attributes simple,

1:19:55Jay Dyeror else I won't believe it. You see how silly that is.

1:20:02Jay DyerWell, this... That's funny. If I'm... It's funny even if I'm 2% ahead on their poll. This is their Muslim poll,

1:20:09Jay Dyerand I'm 2% ahead. That's funny. So you can go debate go bait...

1:20:13Jay DyerDebate. Go vote right there. My mind is beginning to turn to mush because we're, like, six hours into debate now.

1:20:22Jay DyerBut I do appreciate

1:20:23Jay DyerSneko at least finally sort of coming around and

1:20:27Jay Dyerand addressing this because

1:20:29Jay Dyerpeople have been

1:20:32Jay Dyervote... Calling

1:20:35Jay Dyerout Sneko

1:20:40Jay Dyerand asking him to come debate

1:20:42Jay Dyerfor a long time.

1:20:44Jay DyerThat's funny.

1:20:47Jay DyerSo they're gonna tell you, quick, go vote. Quick, vote quick. One one one equal.

1:21:00Jay DyerYeah. I really I really think they think that

1:21:03Jay Dyerif it's simple, it's gotta be true.

1:21:06Jay DyerI mean,

1:21:07Jay Dyerdid you notice too that he lied? Like, he said, we don't know... What is aqida? What is the... He, like, he doesn't know what aqida is. And by the way, Muslims aren't allowed to

1:21:18Jay Dyerignore

1:21:20Jay Dyera school.

1:21:21Jay DyerYou have to be in some school.

1:21:23Jay DyerBut he was being disingenuous.

1:21:26Jay DyerRight?

1:21:27Jay DyerAnd acting like, I don't know what this word is. What are these? What's... What are the schools?

1:21:31Jay DyerAnd acting like they don't

1:21:33Jay Dyerdisagree amongst themselves? Come on.

1:21:36Jay DyerI hope everybody saw how ridiculous that was. Right?

1:21:42Jay DyerAqidah,

1:21:43Jay Dyercreed.

1:21:44Jay DyerWhich creed? Which school of Islamic theology are you a part of? What is I don't know. What is this word? I don't know this word. What is this word made up for you? He's making up words. Doesn't know what they mean.

1:21:56SNEAKOWhat is this?

1:21:58Jay DyerAnd what have we done but call out people like Jake and the others that change their akita depending upon the debate that they're in?

1:22:05Jay DyerWhich you're not allowed to do.

1:22:07Jay DyerBut you are allowed to do it in a religion that's deceptive and allows you to lie and trick and do all this do this trickery. So I guess they are allowed to do it even though technically they're not allowed to do it.

1:22:18Jay DyerWhat is this adidas? I don't know what adidas are. These shoes, what is these shoes? I got a black shirt.

1:22:25Jay DyerLike Allah has parts but he doesn't have parts. It's an analogy to help you with my shirt, but it's done like Allah. You see how silly this was?

1:22:32Jay DyerThis was so bad.

1:22:34Jay DyerBut

1:22:37Jay Dyereven their own polls, they're having a hard time even even their own polls.

1:22:42Jay DyerLook at that. 10% above in their own poll.

1:22:46Jay DyerOh, man.

1:22:49Jay DyerMuslim take loss.

1:22:52Jay DyerMuslim take a big l.

1:22:58Jay DyerOkay. I'm about totally exhausted now. So thank you guys for all of this.

1:23:04Jay DyerDefinitely gonna clip this one up because this one was funny.

1:23:08Jay DyerAll you guys definitely clip, clip, clip, because the clips go out crazier and further than the actual long livestreams. A lot of people are not gonna watch this six six hour livestream,

1:23:18Jay Dyerbut a zillion people watch these clips. Sam's channels

1:23:21Jay Dyerof clips blew up bigger than his main Shamoonian channel.

1:23:26Jay DyerSo guys, you guys,

1:23:28Jay Dyerclip clip clip clip away,

1:23:30Jay Dyerespecially clip.

1:23:32Jay DyerHim making all those dumb mistakes and saying all that stupid stuff.

1:23:37Jay DyerClip it to oblivion bros.

1:23:40Jay DyerClip channels, please. Clip.

1:23:43Jay DyerGub, clip it.

1:23:46Jay DyerAll those other clippers.

1:23:48Jay DyerClipper ships, clip it.

1:23:51Jay DyerTexas guy, $100. Great performance. Appreciate you. Hey. Thank you so much. You guys have been so generous.

1:23:57Jay DyerI guess I guess it was worth it to come to work tonight

1:24:02Jay Dyerto

1:24:04Jay Dyerdebate for six freaking hours and get

1:24:07Jay Dyera nice paycheck. Thank you guys so much. Appreciate it. Much love to you guys. God bless everybody.

1:24:14Jay DyerAgain, please, guys,

1:24:16Jay Dyerstart your own, clip channels

1:24:18Jay Dyerto our bro clip channels.

1:24:21Jay DyerJub,

1:24:23Jay Dyerall the other ones, Kyle,

1:24:25Jay Dyerguys, clip it.

1:24:29Jay DyerAnd,

1:24:30Jay Dyerbe sure and head over to chalk.com. Use promo code j 40 to get 40% off or j 44 life to get 44%

1:24:38Jay Dyeroff that amazing chalk.com.

1:24:41Jay DyerIf you wanna get my books, you can head over to jasonausis.com

1:24:44Jay Dyerin the shop

1:24:45Jay Dyerand get

1:24:46Jay Dyerall of my books, signed copies. You can also subscribe to my website or subscribe to me on ROC Fin.

1:24:52Jay DyerAnd

1:24:54Jay Dyereverybody have a good night.