HEATED DEBATE: Jay Dyer Vs Jake Muslim Metaphysician | Trinity Vs Tawhid -Modern Day Debate
James Kunz Jake the Muslim Metaphysician Jay Dyer
1:56James KunzHey, everybody. Today, we're debating Trinity versus Tawheed, and we are starting right now with Jake, Muslim metaphysician's
2:04James Kunzopening statement. Thanks so much for being with us, Jake. The floor is all yours.
2:10Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianAlright. Are you able to see my screen there?
2:13James KunzYes.
2:15Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianOkay.
2:16Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI'm ready.
2:18Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianAlright. Welcome,
2:29Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianWelcome everyone. So the debate before us tonight is the Orthodox Trinity versus Athari Creed.
2:36Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianTo be clear, this is a debate over polytheism
2:39Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianand the belief in three gods on the one hand and monotheism or the belief in one god on the other hand. In the first half of my opening statement, I will explain and offer a defense of etheti creed. In the second half of my statement, I will explain what the orthodox concept of the trinity is and offer arguments against this position.
2:58Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianFirst and foremost, unlike Orthodox Christians, we Muslims believe in one god.
3:10Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianSay, he Allah is one, Allah the eternal,
3:13Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianthe self sufficient.
3:14Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianHe neither begets nor is he begotten nor is there to him any equivalent.
3:19Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianAllah is one God, does not rely on anything other than himself and everything in creation relies upon him. He does not be begot nor is he begotten or caused to exist,
3:30Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianand there is nothing equal to him.
3:32Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianThe great Athari scholar, Ibn Hossema, summarizes Athari creed saying, and I quote, our doctrine or as
3:39Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianwell as that of all of our teachers is as follows.
3:42Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianWe ascribe to god everything that he ascribes to himself.
3:45Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianWe acknowledge it verbally and hold it to be true through inner conviction within ourselves, though without thereby comparing God's face to the face of any creature or created entity for our lord is above being like onto creatures.
3:59Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianSo we affirm real attributes for Allah based on the apparent meaning of the text and ascribe to him what he ascribes to himself.
4:06Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianWe know the meaning of his attributes,
4:08Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianbut we do not know the haqiqah or the kafiyah or the precise reality of the attributes.
4:13Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianKeep in mind that when we say we affirm the apparent meaning of the text, this takes into account the surrounding context of the verses mentioned as well as the entire corpus of Revelation.
4:24Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianWe do not deny his attributes
4:26Jake the Muslim Metaphysiciannor do we liken his attributes to the creation.
4:29Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianWe reject divine simplicity or the notion that god does not have any real distinct attributes.
4:35Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianHowever, his attributes are inseparable from his essence. He is not composed or caused to exist by something outside of himself.
4:43Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianWe also affirm that Allah is an active,
4:46Jake the Muslim Metaphysiciandynamic creator that is genuinely capable of acting in succession.
4:50Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianHe creates different things at different times and speaks to his creation whenever he wills by his will and power. We believe his actions can have a beginning in time and yet are uncreated.
5:01Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianThe legendary scholar
5:03Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianof hadith, imam al Bukhari states, and I quote,
5:11Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianSo Allah's action is his attribute
5:14Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianand that which is acted upon is distinct from him being part of his creation.
5:19Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianHe also says his occurrences, exalted be he, are not similar to the occurrences of creatures According to the saying of Allah most high, There
5:29Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianis nothing like him, and he is the hearing, the seeing.
5:32Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianLastly,
5:33Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianal Bukhari states that Allah's command, which has a beginning and time, is uncreated.
5:38Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianSo as we can see, al Bukhari affirms that Allah's actions are his attributes
5:43Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianand they are distinct from creation. His actions also can have a beginning in time and yet they are uncreated.
5:50Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianSome may argue that we etherees affirm that Allah has a hand and thereby liken him to creation. They may claim that we cannot attribute the same name to god and creation without ascribing
6:01Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianthe same ontology for god and creation.
6:04Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianThis principle is falsified if one affirms god and humans can possess an essence without being similar ontologically.
6:11Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianThe same bears true for every other predicate given to god.
6:15Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianAlso, looming behind the charge of tashbih
6:18Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianis an assumed realism regarding universals.
6:21Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianFor example, god and humans both have knowledge. This universal knowledge
6:26Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianmust be partially identical in god and man, the objector assumes.
6:30Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianHowever, if we reject the realist notion this argument assumes,
6:34Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianwe cannot affirm the conclusion of tashbih.
6:36Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianThere is no ontological sharing between god and creation because ontological
6:41Jake the Muslim Metaphysiciansharing
6:42Jake the Muslim Metaphysiciandoes not exist.
6:44Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianEvery object, including its essence and attributes, is particular
6:48Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianand not universal.
6:49Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianUniversals merely exist as concepts in the mind.
6:53Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianThe claim that ethnicity traditionalists
6:55Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianrepresent an overtly anthropomorphic
6:57Jake the Muslim Metaphysiciantheology has been refuted countless times and most recently by Fareed Sulaiman when he states and I quote, Wesley Williams attempted in a 2002 article to show that Ibn Hanbal's conception of god was blatantly anthropomorphic,
7:12Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianan untenable
7:13Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianclaim in my opinion, close quote. Suleyman also cites numerous other academics who have refuted this falsehood and goes into more detail substantiating
7:22Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianhis claim.
7:23Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianWe we should also keep in mind that Jay and the Eastern Orthodox
7:27Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianhave no problem with tashbih.
7:29Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianIn fact, they consider it necessary given their concept of theosis described by maximistic confessor as, and I quote, a sure warrant for looking forward with hope to deification of human nature is provided by the incarnation of god,
7:43Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianwhich makes god
7:45Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianwhich makes man god to the same degree as god himself became man. Let us become the image of the whole one God bearing nothing earthly in ourselves so that we may consort with God and become gods receiving from God our existence as gods, close quote. So as we can see, orthodox Christians do not have a problem likening God to creation or creation to God.
8:12Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI now turn to my opponent's theology of the trinity.
8:15Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI will argue that Jay believes in three gods based on what is known in the literature as the logical problem of the trinity. To put it simply, the father, the son, and the holy spirit are each god but are distinct from one another. The normal method by which we would count would mean that there are three gods. Eastern Orthodox scholar Beau Branson states, and I quote, the doctrine of the trinity is central to mainstream Christianity.
8:39Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianBut insofar as it posits three persons,
8:42Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianfather, son, and holy spirit, who are one god, it appears as inconsistent as the claim that one plus one plus one equals one.
8:50Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianSo the common so called Muslim meme of one plus one plus one is right on target. I expect Jay to attempt to reply to this argument, but as we will see later, his responses will not help him and will only create further difficulties.
9:06Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianMy second argument is that the father, son, and holy spirit cannot be one god because they do not possess the same power and knowledge.
9:14Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianOrthodox Christians claim the father, son, and holy spirit are one god because they possess the same energies.
9:20Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianHowever, power and knowledge are energies and they do not possess the same power and knowledge.
9:25Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianFor any power or knowledge that they do not share, they make an exception to this so called rule in an unprincipled manner. For example, the father alone has the power or ability to produce or cause another divine person to exist.
9:40Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianAccording to Jay, the father alone causes the son and spirit.
9:44Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianThey cannot have the same power if one divine person has a power that the other two lack. Therefore, they cannot be the same god if they do not have the same power.
9:54Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianThe father, son, and holy spirit also do not have the same knowledge. The father alone knows that he has the power to cause the son and spirit to exist.
10:03Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianThe son alone knows, from a first person perspective, that he is the word who became flesh, was born, and died on the cross. Therefore, they cannot have the same knowledge. If they do not have the same knowledge, then they must be three gods according to Jay's own standards.
10:20Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianMy third argument is called the epistemological schizophrenia
10:23Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianof orthodoxy.
10:25Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianJay and the so called orthobros
10:27Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianmake a transcendental argument claiming that orthodox theology is a necessary precondition
10:32Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianfor knowledge, logic, argumentation,
10:35Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianetcetera.
10:36Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianWhat exactly is the argument or justification for this claim? Now here's where the epistemological schizophrenia of orthodoxy
10:43Jake the Muslim Metaphysiciancomes into focus.
10:45Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianJay's good friend, ananiasorum,
10:47Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianstates, and I quote,
10:49Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianobtaining the necessary conditions for the possibility of knowledge cannot be logically or epistemically contingent
10:56Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianupon logic or epistemological arguments
10:59Jake the Muslim Metaphysiciansince this would result in question begging and amount to epistemic bootstrapping.
11:04Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianNeither would the veracity of the claim that such and such conditions are necessary for the possibility of knowledge. The necessary conditions
11:11Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianthat would provide justification for our knowledge must be both metaphysically
11:17Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianand epistemically
11:18Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianprior to epistemology
11:20Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianand arguments,
11:21Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianclose quote.
11:22Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianIt seems the response to that is that there is no argument or justification
11:27Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianfor the claim that orthodox theology is a necessary precondition.
11:32Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianHowever, in the same article, ananiasporum
11:35Jake the Muslim Metaphysiciancontradicts himself stating, and I quote, therefore,
11:38Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianthe only condition that will satisfy the possibility of knowledge and bridge the gulf between man and truth is the unique idea of god coherently articulated in the theology of the Eastern Orthodox Church who has preserved the correct doctrine of God received in divine revelation from the holy trinity.
11:56Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianFor only in the Orthodox doctrine of God will we see that God, the necessary condition,
12:02Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianis rational,
12:03Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianomniscient,
12:04Jake the Muslim Metaphysiciantranscendent,
12:05Jake the Muslim Metaphysiciannoncontingent or necessary,
12:07Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianintentional in his creation as opposed to creation being accidental,
12:11Jake the Muslim Metaphysiciana personal and communal being having perichoresis
12:15Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianwithin his trinity, close quote. And he continues on listing all of the reasons why the Eastern Orthodox Church alone can serve as the necessary precondition.
12:25Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianHe contradicts himself again just a few sentences later saying, and I quote, in presupposing God as the necessary condition for the possibility of knowledge, man surrenders his autonomy to the revelation of god, not as a conclusion that has met the standards of his epistemological criterion
12:43Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianitself,
12:43Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianclose quote. So which one is it? Does j and and have an argument and justification
12:49Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianfor the claim that orthodox theology is the necessary precondition for knowledge and argumentation?
12:55Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianAnd if so, then what exactly is the argument?
12:58Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianIf not, then the claim is equivalent to stating that a banana is the necessary precondition
13:03Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianfor knowledge and argumentation.
13:05Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianAnd when you ask me to justify that, I can simply say that you are missing the whole point as this argument is beyond justification.
13:13Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianLet's see which direction Jay goes and if he can remove himself from this state of epistemic schizophrenia.
13:21Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianMy final argument is what I call the problem of orthodoxy in orthodoxy.
13:25Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianBy this, I mean that early church fathers and saints in Jay's tradition rejected the doctrine of the trinity. Jay denies this and claims that not only were the early church fathers Trinitarians,
13:35Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianbut so were ancient Jews.
13:37Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianHe cites authors like Alan Siegel, Daniel Boyarin,
13:41Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianand others to support his claim. However, he does so either out of complete ignorance or does so dishonestly.
13:47Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianThese scholars simply point out that there were intra Jewish theological disputes regarding how one should interpret certain texts.
13:54Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianSome Jews interpreted passages in the Old Testament in support of a theology similar to similar to logos theology, where the logos is a divine or semi divine figure that serves as an intermediary between the most high god and creation.
14:08Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianBoyarin quotes Daniel Abrams saying, and I quote, no one view dominated the spectrum of Jewish interpretations
14:14Jake the Muslim Metaphysiciansince the biblical text is the only common frame for the wide variety of speculations,
14:19Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianclose quote. So logos theology was not the only view or even the dominant view in early Judaism.
14:26Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianAlso, these same sources Jay loves to quote represent Justin Martyr as a proponent of Logos theology and not Trinitarianism.
14:34Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianBoyarin again states, and I quote, many of these passages
14:38Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianserved as the origin and proof text for Logos theology
14:42Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianas manifested
14:43Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianin Justin Martyr's dialogue on nearly every page,
14:47Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianclose quote.
14:49Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianAlan Siegel states, and I quote, both Christianity and Gnosticism
14:53Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianarose out of Hellenistic and apocalyptic Judaism
14:56Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianby sharing heretical traditions of scripture interpretation
15:00Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianwhich speculated on a principal angelic mediator of God, close quote.
15:05Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianThis is exactly what I've always claimed.
15:08Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianLastly, Boyarin acknowledges the stark difference between logos theology and trinitarianism
15:14Jake the Muslim Metaphysiciansaying, and I quote,
15:16Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianNicene orthodoxy also effectively
15:18Jake the Muslim Metaphysiciancrucifies the logos while not ceasing to be to speak of the logos in the move to a trinitarian theology within within which the entire trinity is both self contained and fully transcendent, Athanasius
15:31Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianand his fellows insist that God alone
15:34Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianwithout a mediator,
15:35Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianwithout an angel, without a logos is the creator. Logos theology is ultimately
15:41Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianas thoroughly rejected within Nicene Christianity
15:44Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianas within orthodox rabbinicism,
15:46Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianclose quote. So logos theology so so some Jews were logos theorists and others were not. However, none of them were Trinitarians.
15:55Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianAlso, some early Christians were logos theorists and some were not. Justin Martyr and other church fathers were logos theorists, but logos theory is deemed heretical by orthodox Trinitarians.
16:07Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianJay and his orthodox friends prayed to dead saints who held heretical positions and did not believe Jesus was the most high god. It seems like orthodoxy has a problem with orthodoxy.
16:19Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianIn conclusion,
16:20Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianethnicity creed is the belief in one god who is the creator of all. As for Jay and the orthodox christians who suffer from epistemic schizophrenia,
16:28Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI argue that they believe in three gods, the father, son,
16:33Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianand spirit do not have the same power or knowledge rendering them three gods.
16:38Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianAnd lastly, they have a problem with orthodoxy
16:41Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianas their early church fathers held to a heretical theology
16:45Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianby their own standards.
16:56Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianThank you very much, and I look forward to Jay's presentation.
17:00James KunzThank you very much for that opening. And folks, if it's your first time here at modern day debate, wanna let you know we're thrilled to have you here. We hope you feel welcome. And don't forget to hit that subscribe button as we have many debates coming up. You don't wanna miss them, so hit subscribe right now. We're gonna kick it over to Jay for his opening as well. Thanks for being with us. Jay, the floor is all yours for your opening statement.
17:24Jay DyerAlright. Can we see the screen?
17:27James KunzYes.
17:28Jay DyerAlright. Let's get into it. So
17:30Jay DyerI I'm glad for Jake. They're basically doing everything I wanted him to do in his opening statement. So he's handing me a lot of gems,
17:39Jay Dyerand it's gonna jive perfectly with what I put in my opening statement as to exactly where I knew he would go. So let's talk about salafi Islamic absurdity,
17:48Jay Dyerand that's, of course, the position that Jake represents here.
17:51Jay DyerAnd we're going to
17:54Jay Dyerlook first at
17:56Jay Dyerhow one of his representative theologians that he said represents the Palamas
18:01Jay Dyerof Islam, Ibn Tamiya,
18:04Jay Dyerparticularly in his book on the oneness of God. We're gonna note that it's a massive Christian fail, and we're gonna see the similar fails that even to me makes in understanding Christian theology basics
18:14Jay Dyerthat Jake himself made when it came to the triad by example for example, by reducing
18:19Jay Dyerthe idea of begetting to being an energy. Begetting is not an energy.
18:23Jay DyerSo for Jake's argument to hold that he made earlier about the triad, begetting would have to be a common energy, and it's not. First of all, even to me, it posits at the outset of his book
18:32Jay Dyeran eternal world
18:34Jay Dyerexisting eternally
18:35Jay Dyerseparate from god based on an infinite regress of worlds.
18:40Jay DyerNow Jake has made many critiques of this view and others, so it'd be interesting to see if he rejects a basic idea
18:46Jay Dyerin one of his basic Palamas like theologians of the Islamic tradition.
18:51Jay DyerSecond is even to me a poses the Trinity as contradicting natural reason.
18:56Jay DyerThis is a problem they're gonna notice later on in even to me as well as Jake given that he doesn't understand the transcendental argument as he made clear in his opening statement. That's gonna be very relevant for where we go here in a minute. Arguing that the Trinity makes energies and attributes persons is a move that Ibn Taymiyya makes, which is false. He attributes to us the Nestorian view of Christ as two hypostasis,
19:15Jay Dyerwhich is false.
19:16Jay DyerAnd he attributes to us an Arian modelist view of the trinity collapsing person in nature and God on pages 22 to 24. Now
19:23Jay Dyerhe may not believe those things, and you may not believe those things, but that's not our position as orthodox. So if we're gonna be arguing against orthodox position, you can't set up a straw man and say that you're knocking down the orthodox position when it's the Arian or Nestorian position.
19:39Jay DyerThus, if Antonia and and Islam in general fail to understand, typically speaking, the orthodox
19:45Jay DyerTrinitarian dogma,
19:47Jay Dyerwhen they create a strong man as a formula
19:50Jay Dyeras formulated in our councils, which reject Arianism and Nestorianism. This would be like me basically calling Jake a Sufi, and then we're proceeding to refute that position.
19:59Jay DyerJake's failed account of unity and multiplicity in a la. This has come up in a few debates now with Jake. But what is being debated here between us is not actually a pure unitary position of Jake versus the three ness position
20:12Jay Dyerthat I have, but rather two different ways of accounting for unity and distinction in God.
20:18Jay DyerJake would like to give the impression that his position is free
20:21Jay Dyerfrom all
20:25Jay Dyerissues that relate to multiplicity.
20:26Jay DyerBut in past debates, we will say that this fails. Jake believes that the attributes of God are, according to Ibn Tamiya's two principles,
20:33Jay Dyerreally distinct amongst themselves from God's essence. What applies to one attribute also applies to all the others and equally to God's essence. This includes affirmation and negation, true whether we know the meaning or not except the plain meaning. As Jake said in his opening statement, attributes are comparable
20:48Jay Dyerto creatures in terms of perfections,
20:51Jay Dyerwhich creatures partially have while God maximally has this perfection in a way befitting him. Thus, likeness in these cases
21:00Jay Dyeris, quote, in name only according to Ibn Tamiya. Ergo, it tells us nothing,
21:05Jay Dyerespecially with Jake's
21:06Jay Dyernominalist empiricist position, which he admitted, we will look at this in a second. So keep that in mind.
21:12Jay DyerTrue for thee, not for me, the Jake brand. Jake believes that the attributes are really distinct and inseparable.
21:17Jay DyerDid you hear him say that in his opening statement? That means counting by division,
21:21Jay DyerBut he also distinctly identifies a really dis the attributes is really distinct
21:27Jay Dyerfrom each other and from the essence that's counting by identity,
21:31Jay Dyerwhich in the same boat places him in the same boat as Trinitarians when accounting for the distinction of hypostasis
21:37Jay Dyercounted by identity, and the divine essence, counted by division.
21:41Jay DyerNote, I did not say that Jake thinks that the Allah that Allah's attributes are persons or that we think attributes are persons.
21:48Jay DyerThat is Jake's straw man that he often uses in many discussions and livestreams
21:53Jay Dyerwhen he attempts to rebut this argument.
21:55Jay DyerBut rather, Jake makes the same move when accounting for unity and distinction in god that we do, yet he calls us out on it. This is, in fact, Jake's guilty double standard.
22:06Jay DyerFurthermore, Jake and Ibn Tamiya are allowed to engage in affirmation claims about Allah, which we call cataphatic theology, that he would call idolatry in Christianity. Jake often states the trinity incarnation is pagan.
22:17Jay DyerWe will look at examples in a moment, but this illustrates another double standard where Allah's body parts are considered real but not created.
22:24Jay DyerFoot, hand, eyes, etcetera. What is an uncreated foot that is nothing like a human foot?
22:31Jay DyerWhat, by the way, is a more perfect foot?
22:34Jay DyerDoes the god foot have toenails?
22:36Jay DyerIsn't a foot with toenails more perfect than a toenail deficient foot? In other words, it tells us absolutely nothing and it reduces to absurdity.
22:44Jay DyerAlso, Ibn Tamiya argues that god laughing is somehow more perfect than him not laughing. I'm interested to see how Jake accounts for this. It would then follow that eternally laughing is better than laughing once,
22:56Jay Dyerso god is eternally lulling.
22:58Jay DyerIn other words, a clown god. Remember, what applies to one attribute according to Imametamia's
23:02Jay Dyerrules applies to all the others.
23:04Jay DyerIf there's an infinite series of creative worlds and causes,
23:07Jay Dyerthen why would we ever need a single being, also a position of Imametamia?
23:12Jay DyerContingent means dependent upon something else, but it's begging the question to say that it's a single necessary being. So even to me, I might cash this out or Jake in two different ways.
23:22Jay DyerIf it's a causal relation,
23:24Jay Dyerthen he's engaged in the quantifier shift fallacy that every event has a cause and so that every event has one cause. If every event is contingent such that there's a transference to the whole, that's the parts whole fallacy.
23:35Jay DyerBecause if everything is contingent, therefore, the whole is contingent and is in non sequitur. For example, my room is made up of atoms. Atoms are invisible. Therefore, my room is invisible. This is a non sequitur. And this relates to the two types of argumentation that Ibn Tamiya thinks is rational
23:50Jay Dyerargumentation for the existence of God.
23:53Jay DyerCreated acts in God's essence. Jake is quick to claim idolatry in our position but holds actual idolatrous views by positing actions in the essence of God unless he again
24:03Jay Dyerdeparts from the guy that he says is his Palamas.
24:06Jay DyerSo in Sulaiman two forty one, the Abint to me and the attributes of god, we have this pointed out that, in other words, temporal acts are contrasted with eternal acts. Jake makes this argument himself, and Jake may counter that creator acts are now eternal. That is a contradiction and also creates an attribute that contradicts
24:22Jay Dyereven to me as principle number one
24:25Jay Dyerof what is applied to one attribute then applies to all, meaning that all the attributes are now created and temporal or temporal acts are eternal.
24:32Jay DyerIt also violates the prince Tawheed's
24:35Jay Dyerprinciple number two, which applies to the attributes
24:38Jay Dyerin god's that which applies which applies to the attributes applicable to god's essence, meaning that god's essence is now temporal.
24:45Jay DyerIdolatry, we'll remind you, is ascribing to creatures of the divine nature or worshiping creatures as god.
24:52Jay DyerThis may also be why Jake thinks god's knowledge is had through discursive propositions,
24:57Jay Dyerand that's precisely why he thinks the indexicals argument and debate from modern elec elec philosophy applies to his ideas of God.
25:05Jay DyerI can simply reply that God's
25:08Jay Dyermode of knowledge is not equivalent to creaturely modes of knowledge. And since Jake can at will invoke the idea of
25:15Jay Dyerwe don't know the modality, well, we don't know the modality of god's knowledge.
25:20Jay DyerBut I also might just simply deny that god's knowledge is
25:24Jay Dyerdiscursive or indexical.
25:26Jay DyerMore problems for Jake, perfectly laughing. Do the attributes of Allah considered in themselves possess a sanity?
25:32Jay DyerThis has been asked to Jake in the past, and, of course, Jake has not had an answer to it. Is one answer one attribute considered in itself less perfect than all of them compiled
25:42Jay Dyertogether
25:44Jay Dyeror all of them plus the essence?
25:46Jay DyerRemember, a lot of this theology is gonna be built on
25:50Jay Dyerperfect and less perfect metaphysical assumptions,
25:52Jay Dyerand we're gonna see in a moment that he doesn't even have the ability to get to
25:56Jay Dyerpredicating metaphysical claims at all. Why is laughing and turning his face, quote, more perfect than not? And this is it's actually argued by Ibn Tamiya in the book,
26:07Jay Dyerthe Suleiman book. We might ask, what is a more perfect laugh? Was it a perfect laugh? Was it merely a snicker? Why must we arbitrarily stop inquiring about this meaning?
26:17Jay DyerIf it's a and they they will typically say, well, it's a laugh that befits the majesty of Allah. This again tells us absolutely nothing.
26:24Jay DyerAnd in fact, it's circular because it's not telling us anything. It's just another supposed attribute
26:30Jay Dyerthat tells us that Allah is more perfect. So that's a circular claim, which even even Ibn Taymiyya rejects circularity.
26:37Jay DyerIf being is part of what it is see what it is to be perfect,
26:42Jay Dyerthen god must be seen to be perfect. Yet, Ibn Tamiya
26:45Jay Dyersays that god cannot be seen. Even Sulaiman notes in the book on Ibn Tamiya, page two fifty two, this is a flat out contradiction.
26:54Jay DyerAnd, again, we're gonna see tons and tons of contradictions
26:56Jay Dyerwhen it comes to basic ideas about predicating about god. What is the I a priori
27:03Jay Dyerby the way,
27:04Jay Dyera metaphysical
27:05Jay Dyerperfection here? Where does Jake derive it? How do we know this? Well, it turns out it gets even worse because Jake, even to me, his epistemology,
27:12Jay Dyeras he noted, is an empiricist nominalist epistemology.
27:15Jay DyerJake's position cannot get off the ground in terms of predication at all. And if this argument holds, all of his argumentation about Tawheed will then fail. This is because Jake has put his metaphysical cart before his epistemic horse and is engaging in a host of unjustified,
27:28Jay Dyerarbitrary, and contradictory claims. Empiricism is the view that knowledge arises from sense data or relations of ideas.
27:34Jay DyerNominalism is the view that universals have no real existence,
27:37Jay Dyerand for even Tamiya and for Jake, they are purely mental and solely particular.
27:41Jay DyerA committed anomalous, however,
27:43Jay Dyermust grapple with the following problems. There is no empirical perception of, quote, necessity, being, cause, or any other metaphysical claim. This then undercuts all of his theology and theology claims. There's no empirical perception of the parapertica axiom,
27:56Jay Dyerthe idea that what's in the mind derived from since data. This is a position that Ibn Tamiya holds. There's no empirical perception of, quote, reason or, quote, self evident truth. We note that Ibn Tamiya affirms self evident truth as most Sunni do as well,
28:11Jay Dyerand I assume Jake does as well. There's no empirical perception of the universal that is abstracted by the intellect through the phantasm. Something cribbed from Aristotle
28:19Jay Dyeralso present in Ivan's mem. Universal is thus not a universal if it's only merely particulars. I forgot to put the footnote there, but I can add it. There's no empirical perception
28:30Jay Dyerof, quote, perfection,
28:31Jay Dyermeaning all the arguments that hinge Alice's perfection on
28:34Jay Dyermaximally
28:35Jay Dyercreature like perfections also then fail. There's no empirical perception of identity over time if you're an empiricist, these arguments are arguing. And by extension, no perception then of meaning over time. In other words, I can just take Hume's critiques of identity over time and apply them to Jake's position, which is a not consistent empiricism.
28:55Jay DyerIt turns out, actually, David Hume's empiricism is way more consistent,
28:59Jay Dyerand that's why we we can use these arguments. In fact, Jake might think this isn't fair
29:05Jay Dyersince this is a debate about Tawheed and Trinity, but, again, he brought up a transcend argumentation, so I don't feel unfair now. But if all this about predicating about the attributes is based on a faulty epistemology of naive empiricism
29:16Jay Dyerand a faulty metaphysic of nominalism, then every sentence Jake makes fails to be justifiable or even coherent as all predication itself is now impossible, much less divine predication.
29:28Jay DyerIndeed, the Oxford Handbook of Islam
29:31Jay Dyereven notes that even to me is a human and a lock before human lock. Thus, as such, he will be subjected to the exact same critiques that we make of human lock. Ibn to me principles of reason are self evident on page one ninety six. We're told it's
29:46Jay Dyerview, and I assume Jake's as well. It's a form of classical foundationalism
29:50Jay Dyerwhere the first principles in terms of reasoning are self evident. According to Evint to me, they require no justification.
29:57Jay DyerIf this is the basis of his reasoning in general and by extension of the theological reasoning
30:01Jay Dyerof quranic explanations,
30:02Jay Dyerthen we see no basis for this assertion.
30:05Jay DyerIf Jake can be arbitrary, so can I? Jake, I can just claim that the transcendental argument requires no justification. It just is the case. Now I don't actually think that, and I'm gonna address
30:16Jay Dyeryour misunderstanding of the category error that you made between
30:20Jay Dyerlogical and metalogical argumentation, but that'll come later. What is the nonself referential,
30:26Jay Dyernoncircular basis for you as a kind of foundationalist for thinking that the principles of reasoning are self evident? What determines self evidence?
30:34Jay DyerIf it's based on something else else, then it's no longer self evident. If it's not based on something else, then there's the problem of arbitrariness.
30:41Jay DyerFurthermore, there's the criteria problem. What is the more fundamental principle by which you classify self evidence from nonself evident truth?
30:50Jay DyerExample
30:51Jay Dyerfor example, an IT admits to many passages that are disputed in the Quran
30:56Jay Dyerin terms of their meaning, yet we're told that the plain simple meaning is accessible to all and becomes extremely complex, however, when we see I Ibn Tamiya lay out four rules for knowing when it's figurative versus the plain meaning. Now this, you can see, was a huge source of dispute between him and doctor Khalil in their debate where they were trying to figure out between
31:18Jay Dyervarious Quranic texts, the pen, the tablet, this, that, the hand, the foot, what's literal, what's figurative,
31:24Jay DyerAnd we well, Jake says, look. We're gonna go to the the rules laid out by my scholars. How do we know that those rules are the correct rules? In other words, it's just moving the problem back a step.
31:35Jay DyerGiven that Jake rejects the incarnation as a pagan contradiction,
31:38Jay Dyerwe can return to the body parts which are clearly anthropomorphic.
31:41Jay DyerAttributes are claimed to have a practical teaching,
31:44Jay Dyera value that would be useful
31:46Jay Dyerfor seventh century Arabs and Jews or even Christians hearing the text,
31:50Jay Dyeryet the plain meaning is championed by ibn Tamiya and the salafi.
31:54Jay DyerIt's based on analogy or likeness that is immediately divested of all the meaning,
31:59Jay Dyermaking the statements empty and contradictory. Hand, foot, face, laughter above the throne, descent to lowest heavens are all, quote, affirmed and then stated to be unknown in modality.
32:09Jay DyerIn other words, the god foot is a foot that befits Allah, but it's nothing like a human foot. Even Surulliman notes
32:17Jay Dyerof Ibn Tamiya that he plainly contradicts himself here on body parts on page three thirty one as well as on the notion of creaturely and divine perfections on page two fifty two. It is a hand that's unlike empirically known hands is basically what we're saying here. Yet we're expecting every person in this century to just simply know that, well, clearly, it's not talking about a creaturely
32:38Jay Dyerhand even though we are empiricists.
32:40Jay DyerAnd so lastly, I would note that the trinity
32:42Jay Dyeris a doctrine that is not far fetched. Bezal in letter two thirty four says the energies come down to us. And then monarchical trinitarianism,
32:49Jay Dyerwhich I think we'll get into, my time is running out,
32:52Jay Dyeris a combination
32:54Jay Dyerof counting
32:56Jay Dyerby by
32:57Jay Dyerunity by division and identity.
33:01James KunzWith that, I wanna say first, thank you to both of our guests for those opening statements. Folks, you can find our guest link below. I'm encouraged even if you don't agree with them, this is a great opportunity. You can learn their positions firsthand
33:14James Kunzby checking out their links in the description box. Also, wanna let you know for tonight, we have a limited q and a as this debate is gonna be a pretty long one. So wanna let you know, for the q and a, we won't get to every single question.
33:27James KunzWe do wanna ask,
33:29James Kunzone, if you do a super chat, we're going to read super chats that are $5 or more.
33:34James KunzAnd
33:34James Kunzif you submit a question where it's not a super chat, just a standard question, we're gonna try to get to those, but no promises because we do wanna let these guys out by a decent time tonight. But with that, we're gonna jump right into the rebuttals. Thank you very much for those openings,
33:49James Kunzgentlemen. And, Jake, the floor is all yours for your first ten minute rebuttal.
33:55Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianOkay. Thank you very much. I just want to say at the outset,
33:59Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianJay's opening statement was very interesting. He spent the entire fifteen minutes attempting to attack my position, which I'm gonna show in just a second that he did a very poor job because he's so ignorant of our position. He doesn't understand what we actually believe.
34:14Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianNevertheless,
34:15Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianhe barely went through any detail during the fifteen minutes of explaining what orthodox theology is and what that actually teaches.
34:24Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianSo the audience and myself, if I don't didn't have these, you know, about 50 books of orthodox
34:29Jake the Muslim Metaphysiciantheology, I wouldn't know what the hell Jay's position actually is because he didn't go into any significant detail to talk about his own position whereas I did. I tried to manage my time to speak about half the time about my own position and half the time about my opponents in in critiquing his position.
34:47Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianSo I wish Jay would have spent more time on his own position but, of course,
34:53Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianas we'll see, it's very difficult to do so because he can't defend his own position. And I just wanna point out that Jay makes so many mistakes about what he thinks even Teemiya's position is, what he thinks Athari or Salafi, Aquida, or Creed is, and I'm going to try to point that out as we go along and when we get to cross examination section
35:14Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianone by one. And I just wanna explain this to the audience. It should really be of no surprise
35:21Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianbecause Jay himself and people were wondering why did he delay this debate? Well, he delayed the debate because he told me that he was incapable of having the debate unless he was able to read one text that was an unreleased text in English. Okay. So this is a guy who just started reading about Ibn Taymiyyah and Athari Creed two weeks ago and he thinks he's now an expert and going to tell the audience all about it. It's it's honestly a complete joke.
35:48Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianOkay. So now let's get to some of what Jay actually had to say here.
35:52Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianHe says that Ibn Taymiyya doesn't understand orthodox Trinitarianism.
35:57Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianWell, nobody would at this point because you didn't really explain it. But nevertheless,
36:01Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianwhat Ibn Taymiyya says about orthodox Trinitarianism
36:05Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianis irrelevant to this debate. I didn't cite Ibn Taymiyyah as an argument against orthodox Trinitarianism.
36:11Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI gave arguments in which I've made numerous times and you haven't responded to any of them and which you should have been able to preempt in your opening statement because I've been repeating them for five plus years. So that's the first thing.
36:23Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianSecond thing is Jay makes a big to do about nominalism.
36:27Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianNow I actually appreciate that, Jay, and that's why I spent a significant portion of my time speaking about our position of nominalism
36:35Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianbecause I think it's a clear
36:38Jake the Muslim Metaphysiciandifference between the two views.
36:40Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianIf nominalism
36:41Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianis true,
36:42Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianthen orthodox trinitarianism
36:44Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianis necessarily
36:45Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianfalse.
36:46Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianAnd I think even Jay Dyer would have to agree with this. Why? Because they conceive of the universal
36:52Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianthat the three persons share or the essence as a universal that the three persons share. Well, if there are no such things as imminent universals,
37:01Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianthen quite literally the trinity cannot exist.
37:04Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianNow Jay makes it seem so obvious as if these things such as universals,
37:11Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianthese entities
37:12Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianand and and so if people don't know what they are. Right?
37:16Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianYou know, you can see this piece of paper here, this white piece of paper. The idea that Jay Dyer wants us to believe that he thinks is so obvious is that there is something
37:25Jake the Muslim Metaphysiciancan you picture people? There's something in this piece of paper that is actually identical
37:31Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianto the white stripes
37:33Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianand the whiteness in my color and my skin complexion. That's what Jay Dyer wants us to believe is that there's this thing. There's this thing that's universal
37:42Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianwhiteness
37:43Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianwhich exists
37:44Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianthat is partially at least identical in the paper and also in Jay's forehead.
37:50Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianWell, if he thinks that that's so obvious,
37:52Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI'd like him to give an argument for that because based upon Occam's razor, we should not be postulating
37:58Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianentities
37:59Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianbeyond necessity.
38:00Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianJay Dyer has given no argument for the existence of these so called Aristotelian
38:05Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianimminent universals.
38:07Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianAnd this is going to be a big difference between us going up. So I at least appreciate Jay
38:12Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianhaving enough sense to know and understand that. Now he makes a big to do about nominalist predication.
38:20Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI don't know if Jay has done any reading on nominalism. I assume that he has with all those books behind him, but I'd like him to show me an argument from an actually scholarly source that says that nominalist predication is meaningless.
38:34Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianThat unless there is this weird thing, which is universal,
38:38Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianthat is partially identical in this white piece of paper and in Jay's beautiful forehead over there, unless there is something partially identical in them, it makes no sense to say that Jay's forehead is white and this paper is white.
38:53Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianNow does the public and the people watching think that that's a convincing argument? No. Jay needs to give an argument for his position. He has not given any argument for his position. So until he can give an argument for the necessity
39:07Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianof these types of universals,
39:09Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianwe can simply dismiss it.
39:11Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianNow
39:12Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianthat ties into everything that he was saying about Allah subhanahu wa ta'allah and he's mocking about God having so called body parts. But if he's actually read the Fareed Sulaiman source that he desperately needed to delay the debate in order to
39:28Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianread that, he would actually see that Fareed Sulaiman
39:32Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianexplicitly
39:33Jake the Muslim Metaphysiciansays,
39:34Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianas I quoted in my opening statement, that the idea that Ibn Taymiyyah's conception is of god is overtly anthropomorphic
39:41Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianis completely untenable,
39:43Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianand he cites numerous sources and gives arguments for that throughout the book. So Jake can say he disagrees with that, and it's fine. But on the one hand, you can't claim that Jake and the Athari saying that Allah
39:55Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianhas a hand
39:56Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianis completely meaningless and on the other hand, say that it's tashbih
40:00Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianor it's likening god to creation and having body parts.
40:04Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianSo you cannot have it both ways, Jay. Is the nominalist predication
40:08Jake the Muslim Metaphysiciancompletely meaningless and devoid of any content? Or is it meaningful
40:12Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianand therefore we're likening God to creation?
40:15Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianAnd if you do think we're likening God to creation,
40:18Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianthen what is your problem with that? Because you believe
40:22Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianin the necessity of likening god to creation and your concept of theosis, which I quoted from Saint Maximistic Confessor in my opening statement. So even if, let's say for the sake of argument, oh my god, this is terrible anthropomorphic.
40:35Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianJake is likening god to creation, okay. What is your problem with that? You can't you don't have an argument about that. You have no argument about that whatsoever.
40:44Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianSo Jay needs to deal with those points.
40:47Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianHe mentions about
40:48Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianindexicals
40:49Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianand god's knowledge.
40:51Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianWell, actually, before I get to this, this was another important point here.
40:56Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianLet me see. There's so much nonsense he he mentioned.
41:00Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianHe said he
41:02Jake the Muslim Metaphysiciansaid there even Jake believes in two ways of counting.
41:06Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianHe believes in accounting
41:08Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianby identity,
41:09Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianand then he also believes in counting by division when it comes to Allah. And he said, you see, he mentioned that Allah's attributes are inseparable from each other. I mean, honestly, Jay,
41:19Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianwhere did you get this from? This was the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard that we're counting by division. No. In fact, by the fact that they're inseparable
41:28Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianfrom one another and inseparable from the essence
41:31Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianmeans that we are counting them by identity.
41:35Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianBecause if we were counting them by division,
41:37Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianthen we would say that Allah only
41:40Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianhas one attribute.
41:42Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianBut we say that he has many attributes
41:44Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianand yet they are not divided by time and space. So how do we say that there are many attributes and yet they're not divided by time and space or and or separable?
41:54Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianBecause we're counting them by identity.
41:57Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianWow. I don't know how you made such a big blunder there, so you need to show how I'm counting
42:03Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianby
42:04Jake the Muslim Metaphysiciandivision or separability when it comes to attributes or the essence. That was a Okay. Big
42:11Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianSo here we go. The the the next part here where Jay mentioned about the in indexicals.
42:17Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI wanna read a quote from
42:20Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianone of his
42:21Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianauthors that he appeals to.
42:24Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianLet me just bring it up here.
42:26Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianOkay. So
42:29Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianon indexicals,
42:30Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianhe says, well, Jake has a strange understanding
42:33Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianof god's knowledge. Well, that's let's see if that's the case when it comes to these indexicals
42:38Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianor the eye.
42:39Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianWell, I'm gonna show you in a source here from Jay's own people
42:44Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianthat that is exactly the case, if I can ever find a damn quote.
42:48Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianLet me see here.
42:53James KunzGot about fifteen seconds.
42:55Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianOkay. I'll get to that quote in my next rebuttal but I'll show you that Jay's own church writers
43:02Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianexplicitly use the indexical eye in appealing to God's knowledge.
43:07James KunzWith that, we'll kick it over to Jay for his ten minute rebuttal as well. If you haven't yet, folks, hit that like button. Not for me, but for you so that YouTube knows what to serve you more of. With that, thanks very much. Jay, the floor is all yours.
43:21Jay DyerYeah. Again,
43:23Jay DyerI think Jake missed a lot of the the classes that dealt with basics of epistemology
43:29Jay Dyerand metaphysics because Jake misunderstood a lot of points that I made made some pretty rookie mistakes. For example, he appealed to my argumentation about realist
43:38Jay Dyernotions of universals
43:40Jay Dyeron the basis of saying that, well, because we know this because of Occam's razor. Well, how do we know Occam's razor is true in all cases or true in this case? That's just an arbitrary appeal. It's just an appeal to some other thing that we don't actually know really grounds and disproves the reality of universals. He says I didn't give arguments about universals.
43:59Jay DyerI gave multiple arguments about how there's no empirical
44:02Jay Dyerverification
44:03Jay Dyeror observation
44:05Jay Dyerof metaphysical
44:06Jay Dyerobjects that Jake believes in. That is itself the undercutting and the disproof
44:11Jay Dyerof his nominalism.
44:12Jay DyerJake doesn't appear to be aware of classic critiques
44:16Jay Dyerand reputations and questions for the nominalist empiricist tradition, which he's aligned himself with.
44:23Jay DyerFirst further, I would add too, I didn't delay the debate just because I needed to read one book. I asked him if he was willing to to delay the debate because it's relevant for the the debate that we're having, and it's a newly published book about
44:36Jay Dyerthe school of theology that he believes in. So that was the real reason for that. And he knows that, but he is just looking for anything to grasp at this point. So,
44:45Jay Dyeragain, let's get back to this point about what
44:47Jay Dyerwhat empiricism and nominalism says. Empiricism says that we begin our theology from sense data. I made the argument that we can't even know that the peripatetic axiom is true on the basis of sense data. There's nothing in sense data that tells you that knowledge comes from sense data. And if that's the case, then all of the arguments that David Hume makes about identity over time, meaning over time, those are all arguments.
45:12Jay DyerNow you'll notice that if you paid attention to my slides and my talk, I did give arguments. I listed many, many arguments. And it's true. I did focus on Jake's position because I knew we would get to the Trinity in later discussions in the debate. I'm happy to defend any of the arguments that Jake has against the Trinity. But I wanna know that Tawheed actually makes sense.
45:32Jay DyerAnd, you know, Jake said that he made all of these arguments that I didn't address.
45:37Jay DyerI didn't actually hear an argument. I heard a bunch of assertions as to what his position is about the creed, what his position is about unity.
45:44Jay DyerI didn't actually hear an argument. So I don't think Jake understands the difference between asserting something
45:49Jay Dyerand actually claiming something.
45:51Jay DyerI actually went into multiple texts, multiple scholars. I didn't just rely on one. And by way, I wanna address that he's wrong about what he says about, first of all, Boyarin.
46:00Jay DyerI didn't claim that
46:02Jay Dyerthat those Jewish theologians taught the Trinity.
46:05Jay DyerThat's false.
46:07Jay DyerSo Jake's incorrect. I didn't say that they taught the Trinity. I said that they talked about the reality of multiple hypostasis.
46:13Jay DyerThat could be binitarianism.
46:14Jay DyerThat could be a form of trinitarianism in certain kabbalists. It could be the other schools that were strictly unitarian.
46:21Jay DyerI just simply pointed out that early Judaism was not monolithic,
46:25Jay Dyerand that was enough to demonstrate that you couldn't use the argument that Daniel Hikikachu used that the Old Testament was, quote, unitarian
46:33Jay Dyeror that the prophets taught Unitarianism
46:36Jay Dyerand that this is a corruption. It was just simply demonstrating that there were Jews in the first first
46:41Jay Dyertwo centuries that were
46:44Jay Dyernot believers in strict Unitarianism.
46:46Jay DyerAnd beyond that, there were actually Jews who were Trinitarians,
46:50Jay Dyerand they were called Christians.
46:51Jay DyerAnd that's why Boyarin says that Christianity
46:56Jay Dyeris
46:56Jay Dyeran or a conservative
46:58Jay Dyerform of Judaism.
46:59Jay DyerSo all I was doing was demonstrating that Daniel's arguments that Judaism is somehow inherently Unitarian are not true. That's all I needed to to demonstrate.
47:08Jay DyerSo he's setting up a straw man about something I didn't argue.
47:12Jay DyerNext, I'll address the fact that
47:15Jay Dyerthe logos theology that that he talked about, there's not one logos theology that one guy had,
47:21Jay Dyerand everybody got this from filio or someone else, and then it got rejected.
47:26Jay DyerJake is completely ignorant of Athanasius who who engages in consistent logos theology argumentation.
47:32Jay DyerHe's the foremost theologian at the council of Nicaea. So this idea that logos theology is not used post Nicaea or whatever dumb argument he made is totally not true. Clement of Alexandria, all the Alexandrian fathers in tradition often used this logos argumentation.
47:47Jay DyerSome of the logos apologists of the first and second century eventually did go into weird deviations,
47:53Jay Dyerbut that doesn't mean that all logos theology is false. Logos theology is in John one, and it's in the wisdom text of the Old Testament. It didn't the it didn't come out of Plato.
48:02Jay DyerThere's a plenty of scholarship that will note, as even some these Jewish scholars do that it goes back to the wisdom text, Proverbs, ecclesiastes,
48:10Jay Dyerand so forth.
48:11Jay DyerHow that's cashed out by different theologians is a different question. So Jake doesn't understand what logos theology is,
48:17Jay Dyerand he doesn't understand the first three centuries of Christianity.
48:22Jay DyerI would add as well that
48:25Jay DyerJake doesn't understand what an internal critique is.
48:29Jay DyerHe thinks that when I make an internal critique that I have to then agree with the thing that I'm I'm critiquing. So if I say that his position
48:37Jay Dyeris anthropomorphic,
48:38Jay DyerI shouldn't have a problem with it because I'm a I believe in anthropomorphism.
48:43Jay DyerBut, dude, I'm not saying that. I'm I'm critiquing your position. So Jake doesn't literally doesn't grasp what an internal critique is. That's also why he doesn't understand what tag is. Jake, as we said, is a foundationalist.
48:57Jay DyerHe's a very one dimensional, one layer thinker, so he doesn't understand meta level questions even though, ironically, he's called the Muslim meta physician.
49:06Jay DyerSo he ought to be at least aware of what metallurgical issues are. That's what the transcendental argument is.
49:11Jay DyerHe ought to be aware of metaphysical
49:13Jay Dyerissues. I don't think he actually is. I think he copies and pastes out of various scholars that fit his need. For example, he uses us when he's arguing with Anthony Rogers.
49:23Jay DyerHe uses, you know, analytical,
49:25Jay Dyeryou know, William Lane Craig when he's so he's just picking and choosing when he when it fits the case. And he also seems to sort of move his positions in the midst of various debates. He has a history of that. So
49:36Jay DyerI'm interested to to see where he's gonna go when we ask him about the attributes, whether they they possess a seity considered in themselves or not. He said that inseparability
49:44Jay Dyeris not counting
49:46Jay Dyerby division. It's counting by identity. And then he proceeded to say that because we identify
49:51Jay DyerAllah's essence as one. He totally missed the point that I said. I said that he does both. That was the argument I made. I didn't say that he he only counts by division by using the word inseparability,
50:03Jay Dyerbut he doesn't even seem to realize realize that in the ancient medieval world, whether it's Al Ghazali,
50:08Jay Dyerwhether it's Aristotle in category six, whether it's the Cappadocians,
50:12Jay Dyerwhether it's Maximus, whether it's the Nicene Creed,
50:15Jay Dyerthe ancient world
50:16Jay Dyerconsistently and commonly thought about counting by division.
50:20Jay DyerWe use this argument all the time, especially when we refer to Maximus and the ambigua. I think it's question one where Maximus talks about unity being a single monad and then division being the separability that gives us two and then another form of separability, which gives us the triad or gives us three. I'm not talking about the trinity. I'm just talking about counting. That's how they thought. That's how they counted. Right, in moderation and belief. This is how August al Ghazali counts, for example. So it was common in the ancient world. Jake doesn't even know this. He thinks that it's something that was made up, and then he thinks that everybody just,
50:52Jay Dyerquote, counts by identity. He says in one of his debates, this is just how we count the day. It's like we count the day like this. How come
50:59Jay Dyerthe others don't even count like that? Not even aware that this is how people count it in his own Islamic schools. Maybe not his school per se because this wasn't an issue of debate, but al Ghazali counts this way. I can show you in moderation of belief where he counts this way.
51:15Jay DyerFor example, it's the tenth proposition.
51:17Jay DyerHere we go. Oh, he he ain't got no Islamic books. He ain't done no reading. Oh, really? How about this right here where al Ghazali in the tenth proposition is counting by the the.
51:26Jay DyerSo
51:27Jay DyerJake doesn't know what he's talking about. When we came to the body parts, however, I didn't say that
51:33Jay Dyereven to me gave
51:35Jay Dyerno cataphatic
51:37Jay Dyermeaning. I said he contradicted.
51:40Jay DyerSo Jake said, well, there's a place in the book
51:42Jay Dyerwhere he says that that it's it's perfectly fine to speak this way. I didn't say that. I did I never claimed that. I claimed that he contradicts by saying two different things. So, again, Jake didn't even understand the argument or it went over his head or he just didn't wanna address it. And Jake, again, has a notorious
52:01Jay Dyerhistory
52:01Jay Dyerof in debates,
52:03Jay Dyeraddressing any actual arguments. He blows past them, and he because he literally thinks that asserting something is an argument.
52:10Jay DyerAnd you can see that when he came to the treatment of tag.
52:13Jay DyerTag is a meta level argument about arguing and logic itself.
52:18Jay DyerAnd Jake says, well, what's the argument or the logic for that? Yeah. Exactly. It's a preconceptual
52:24Jay Dyerprecondition type of argument. Now Jake is in the tradition of the empiricists, so I would think he would be pretty familiar with the ideas of analytic and synthetic truths One minute left. A priori truths.
52:35Jay DyerHow much?
52:36James KunzOne minute left.
52:37Jay DyerOne minute.
52:39Jay DyerBut he doesn't seem to be aware of those things at all because his treatment of empiricism
52:43Jay Dyeris naive empiricism. And, again, when we get into cross examination,
52:46Jay Dyerwe're gonna see that does he believe in self evident truths like
52:51Jay Dyerhis masters and his teachers do? And he says that, well,
52:55Jay Dyereven to me, a book's not even relevant for this for this debate.
52:59Jay DyerYeah. You said it is relevant because you said that he's your Palamas. So why would he not be relevant relevant for the debate when he's for us, he's Palamas is a pillar of orthodoxy. You know that. I have the DM where you told me that he represents the Palamas for your tradition. So is he so the the pillar of your tradition isn't relevant for this debate?
53:19Jay DyerNo. You just don't wanna go to that because you know I did read it, and you wanna stick to some other things, some other text when you know good and well that he's perfectly a representative of your tradition if he's the Palapas of your tradition.
53:33James KunzTime.
53:34James KunzThis one, I just realized. So on so thank you very much, gentlemen, for those rebuttals.
53:40James KunzJake, I am sorry. I accidentally
53:42James Kunzyou when you guys asked for the one minute warnings,
53:45James KunzI screwed up mentally. And when I was supposed to give you your one minute warning, I accidentally gave it to you where, basically, I I accidentally gave you one less minute. So what I'm gonna do is for these next rebuttals, which are supposed to be five and five minutes, I'm gonna tack on that minute back onto yours, Jake, just to keep it fair. Sorry about that. My mistake.
54:04James KunzAnd so we'll have these second rebuttals.
54:07Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianJust
54:08Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianjust so I understand what you're saying. So I only spoke I spoke for nine minutes instead of ten, so I'll be getting six minutes instead of five this time. Is
54:15Jay Dyerthat it?
54:16James KunzExactly. Basically, moving the because it was my mistake, I cut you off a minute early. So taking that to keep it equal so you have equal time in the debate, I'm gonna take that missed minute
54:26Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianallow you to
54:27Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianbut it's gonna come out of your pay, but that's fine.
54:30James KunzYou got it. I'll still give you six if you want it. You don't have to. If you wanna use five, that's fine. But with that, thank you very much, gentlemen. The floor is all yours. Jake,
54:38James Kunz've got it set for six minutes. I'll give you the warning at one minute until that's done.
54:43Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianOkay. Here we go. Six minutes.
54:46Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianSo, Jay,
54:47Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianyou know, it's it's so funny to me that you say
54:51Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianthat I didn't that I'm just making assertions the whole time. Jake is only making assertions. He didn't hear any arguments.
54:59Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianWell, I'll just repeat my arguments because Jay, maybe he honestly didn't hear them. I have no idea because you didn't respond to a single argument that I gave. I actually engaged with your fifteen minutes of nonsense to the best of my ability.
55:13Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianYou didn't engage with a single one of my arguments. You didn't respond to my arguments asserting that you guys are polytheists based on the LPT.
55:21Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianYou didn't respond to my argument about them not having the same power or knowledge other than assuming that I said that these must be energies.
55:31Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianNo. My entire critique is that the orthodox
55:35Jake the Muslim Metaphysiciansay that they're not energies.
55:37Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianThey make an exception
55:39Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianbetween the begetting and the spirating
55:42Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianand god's knowledge and these other things when they're not shared. And that's the whole problem with your universalist perspective
55:51Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianis that you don't have the necessary and sufficient conditions
55:54Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianfor what an essence is.
55:56Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianYou make exceptions and maybe you're not familiar with the classical critiques
56:00Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianof the Aristotelian
56:02Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianposition regarding universals,
56:04Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianyou basically hold to, that we can come up with all sorts of exception cases
56:09Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianthat you don't have answers to. And that's the point. You make an exception. You say, oh, they they they still have the same power even though the father alone has the power to beget the son and the holy spirit. And by the way, the Catholics actually disagree on this point and they make that very same argument
56:27Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianthat the orthodox
56:28Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianare guilty of saying that the father alone has the power to cause another divine person. And because of that, they don't have equal power. So don't act like I just pulled this argument out of my backside. I didn't.
56:41Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianLet's go further here.
56:43Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianAgain, he keeps saying I I I was just making assertions. No. I've made arguments. I gave my argument on the LPT whether you think it's ridiculous or not. I made the argument that they can't be the same god because they don't have the same power and knowledge. Now let's get to this point that you made about
56:58Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianknowledge.
57:00Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianOkay.
57:01Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI have the quote here. Ready? Alright.
57:04Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianWhich is from Dimitri
57:06Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianStan Eloy,
57:07Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianand he says in the experience of god volume one page one fifty two I I'd love to see what you think of this, Jay. He says, and I quote, the life of the eternal subjectivity
57:18Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianmust be a fullness,
57:19Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianwhich in all respects is not a transitory one. It must consist in a love or another subjectivity
57:25Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianand in a perfect union between itself and that subjectivity,
57:29Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianwhich has the same fullness so as to be simultaneously
57:32Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianunfailing life. The life of the eternal subjectivity
57:36Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianis an infinite reference to its subjectivity contemplated
57:40Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianwithin
57:40Jake the Muslim Metaphysiciananother I,
57:42Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianwithin another, quote, unquote, I, so as to be true love, eternal unfailing love. It is reference to another I who is himself also the bearer of his own infinite subjectivity
57:55Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianand responds within that same eternal unfailing love. A divine I loves with an eternal inexhaustible love, a thing proper to the divine or with its fullness,
58:05Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianwhich is like that of another eye. And this occurs in reciprocity.
58:10Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianThis is divine lie this this divine love
58:13Jake the Muslim Metaphysiciansorry. This is divine life and it exists together with immutable fullness. It is the same infinite existence of love, the love in of an infinite person directed towards another person worthy of infinite love and vice versa. But within the inferiority
58:27Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianof
58:28Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianthe same subjectivity,
58:30Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianin other circumstances,
58:32Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianeternally would either be an unbearable
58:34Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianboredom if it were the prerogative of a single consciousness,
58:39Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianthereby he's saying there are three consciousnesses
58:43Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianwithin the trinity or three minds. Well, if three consciousness or three minds in the trinity isn't polytheism,
58:49Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianthen I don't know what the hell is. What is the standard?
58:52Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianAnd he's saying that that is the contemplation
58:54Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianof another
58:55Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianconsciousness
58:56Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianor else an absurdity if it were prerogative of a substance of law that was aimless. He's basically saying, oh my god. God would be bored if he didn't have another god to sit there and talk to. Okay? So don't make it seem like, oh, Jake has no idea. The orthodox don't have this concept of knowledge. Well, what is he talking about here in the subjectivity
59:17Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianof the different divine persons? They have a self referential
59:21Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianeye which accounts for the mutual love. Otherwise, they would all be bored.
59:26Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianAnd he says that if it were the prerogative of a single consciousness,
59:30Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianmeaning there are three consciousnesses
59:32Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianin the Trinity, Jay. So how do you defend that three consciousnesses in the trinity is not polytheism?
59:39James KunzOne minute left.
59:40Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianNow back to the whole issue of epistemology,
59:43Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianJay thinks that I don't understand.
59:45Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI do understand the criticisms,
59:48Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianand I knew that he was going to bring this critique because he doesn't wanna talk about Trinity versus Tawheed. He wants to talk about epistemology
59:56Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianbecause he knows that he can't respond to my actual arguments.
59:59Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianSo he's spending the entire time trying to criticize my position without a defense of his own position in response to my arguments. And he wants to make the debate about epistemology.
1:00:10Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianBut I knew he was gonna do that. That's why I included that in my opening statement. But I'd be happy to have an entirely separate debate about epistemology.
1:00:18Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianBut Jay wants to make it only about that in this debate because he know he can't defend his actual position. But I'd be happy to go through that. And if you wanna talk about self evident truth,
1:00:27Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI'd be happy to talk about that. But whatever your critiques are of them, as you've already admitted,
1:00:33Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianyou can't give a justification
1:00:35Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianto something that is metalogical.
1:00:37Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianAnd therefore, I can tell you the same exact thing, and we're at an intellectual stalemate.
1:00:42James KunzEnd times.
1:00:44James KunzWith that, we're gonna kick it over to Jay for his five minute rebuttal. Wanna let you know folks, at the very end, they'll have their closing statements, or I should say second to the end,
1:00:52James Kunzwhich will be flipped. In other words, different from usual, it'll actually be instead of Jake going first and then Jay, it'll be flipped where it'll instead
1:01:02James Kunzwe'll explain when we get there. With that Wait.
1:01:04Jay DyerWait. Wait. Wait. Wait.
1:01:05Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianHold on a second. What what I didn't understand what you just said.
1:01:08James KunzI'll, like, I'm I'm putting the cart before the horse. I'll explain that once we get there. But you had mentioned it earlier in our discussion on how you guys wanted it, so I'll I'll bring it up later though. But, Jay, thank you very much. The floor is all yours.
1:01:23Jay DyerYeah. So I just wanted to point out here that one of the things that would definitely help Jake in the future if he wants to understand
1:01:31Jay Dyerthe history of Christian metaphysics and the distinctions that he he's not able to actually make
1:01:36Jay Dyeris this great book here, Christian Theology and the End of Ancient Metaphysics.
1:01:41Jay DyerAnd this is the a new recent book in the scholarship.
1:01:45Jay DyerIt it's by Johannes Zacuber, and it's really good for pointing out that we don't, for example, think that the essence of God is a universal. This is a fundamental mistake. I don't know where you got this. I think you misunderstood
1:01:57Jay Dyerthe idea of the comparison between the Cappadocians saying that the essence of God is common,
1:02:02Jay Dyerand therefore, it's like the relationship between a universal and a particular. But the essence of God itself is not actually a universal in the sense of the way that we understand universal. Saint Maximus, so the confessor famously teaches
1:02:15Jay Dyeras does John Damascus that universals are created.
1:02:19Jay DyerGod is not created, and so universals cannot be the essence of God. So Jake misunderstood an analogy comparing the universal
1:02:27Jay Dyerrelationship
1:02:28Jay Dyerbetween the creatures and the participation that they have in the one in regard to the many versus the
1:02:35Jay Dyerrelationship
1:02:36Jay Dyerof the one and the many in God. It's just an analogy that Cappadocians make, and so Jake misunderstood. They're very fundamental misunderstanding.
1:02:43Jay DyerJake equivocated on the term power.
1:02:47Jay DyerSo I'm gonna quit screen sharing there.
1:02:50Jay DyerSo what I said was is that for that argument to hold, which is actually a Unamian argument,
1:02:55Jay Dyerthe the notion
1:02:56Jay Dyerof
1:02:57Jay Dyerbegetting would have to be an energy. And this is the argument that Unamius makes against Nicaea in against Unamius.
1:03:04Jay DyerAnd the argument is that begetting is not a power. So Jake's equivocating on the distinction between hypostatic properties
1:03:09Jay Dyerand powers,
1:03:11Jay DyerAnd the fact that Roman Catholics
1:03:13Jay Dyerclaim this really has nothing to do with our debate. Roman Catholics claim all kinds of things. Jake doesn't believe in Roman Catholicism.
1:03:18Jay DyerSo he wants to try to use an argument as if that would have any weight in this debate. Really doesn't matter what Roman Catholics say. He says I didn't reply to the LPT. I did reply to the LPT. I pointed out that his argument and his use of it relies on counting in one way, counting by identity. I specifically addressed twice now that both of us count by identity and both of us count by division. I gave multiple people in the past who count this way. Jake ignored all that. Jake acts like this is all made up. In the in recent livestreams and talks, he's actually acted like,
1:03:49Jay Dyerwhy don't y'all count the way everybody does today?
1:03:52Jay DyerNot even aware of the basic fact that ancient medieval world counted also this way. I mentioned in my opening statement, first order and second order in position,
1:04:01Jay Dyerthat certain things can be counted by identity
1:04:03Jay Dyerand certain things can be counted by division even back in the ancient medieval world. This became a medieval distinction. First order, second order, and position.
1:04:11Jay DyerIf we wanna go back to my
1:04:13Jay Dyeropening statement,
1:04:14Jay DyerI said
1:04:15Jay Dyerthat
1:04:18Jay Dyeryou could think of things like
1:04:21Jay Dyerlet me see where I put this.
1:04:24Jay DyerYou could let me see. You could think of things like
1:04:28Jay Dyerfirst order imposition would be things like mundane objects of
1:04:31Jay Dyercats, cows, dogs.
1:04:34Jay DyerSo they would be concrete objects in the world. And then you could think about
1:04:39Jay Dyerabstract objects like sets or laws of logic. Those would be counted by identity
1:04:44Jay Dyerbecause it doesn't really make sense to think of, for example,
1:04:48Jay Dyerone third of a law of logic or one third of of a
1:04:51Jay Dyera set of things. Right? So abstract things in this case, created abstract things,
1:04:56Jay Dyerwould be counted by identity.
1:04:59Jay DyerBut things that might be parted or are divisible
1:05:02Jay Dyerhave to be counted by division, and this is actually in even today's literature. So Jake's acting like, we don't count this way today, dog. We don't count this way today. Oh, really? Well, I mean, I've got academic scholars here talking about the theory of mathematics and countings like like like the David Liebzman paper
1:05:20Jay Dyerwhere he goes into great detail arguing that, no. Actually, we do still count by division, and you just have to be more nuanced about it. I specifically argued again that Jake, in his own accounting for the attributes and the essence, also counts by identity and by division,
1:05:35Jay Dyerand he used the very terminology that relates to accounting by division. And he got upset by that. He got a little rattled, and they had to say, that's not what it means, bro. That's not what it mean, dog. Now he he mentioned the idea of Unitarianism
1:05:49Jay Dyerand
1:05:50Jay Dyermodes. Jake doesn't understand the difference between
1:05:53Jay Dyerperson,
1:05:53Jay Dyernature, and mode. It's very important for Trinitarian theology to make a distinction
1:05:57Jay Dyerbetween hypostasis,
1:05:59Jay Dyernature,
1:06:00Jay Dyerperson nature, and mode or tropos.
1:06:03Jay DyerMode is the way that a thing exists.
1:06:05Jay DyerIslamic theology is kind of all over the place, and they use modality in a lot of different ways. It's kinda unclear and contradictory between the different Islamic figures as as to what exactly they think modality means. Sometimes it relates to parts whole relationships.
1:06:19Jay DyerSometimes it means relation to other objects, and sometimes it means the actual way that the mode in which it exists, the way a thing exists, or how it exists.
1:06:28Jay DyerSo in orthodox theology, we're using it in that sense of how a thing exists.
1:06:34James KunzPardon. I missed the reminder.
1:06:35Jay DyerSo off today.
1:06:37James KunzSo
1:06:38James Kunzpretty much. We're gonna kick it over to changing it up in the format. We're now going to the three sets of seven minute cross examinations.
1:06:46James KunzThis
1:06:47James Kunzis going to be more formal for our cross examinations,
1:06:50James Kunzfolks. So we are looking for just questions on one side and just question or just answers on the other side. With that, Jake, the floor is yours to interrogate
1:07:00James KunzJay
1:07:01James Kunzright now.
1:07:04Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianOkay. Just give me one second because I'm starting my timer here.
1:07:09Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianOkay. I'm ready. Jay, so you said that you're
1:07:13Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianwondering where did I get this idea that the divine essence is a universal.
1:07:17Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianSo let me read you from your good friend doctor Beau Branson in his PhD dissertation on page one sixty eight
1:07:24Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianon the section four point two point one ousiae and hypostasis.
1:07:28Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianIn Gregory of Nysa on universals,
1:07:31Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianRichard Cross argues persuasively,
1:07:33Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianin my view, that Saint Gregory and Saint Basil both use the term ousia
1:07:38Jake the Muslim Metaphysiciansynonymously
1:07:39Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianwith nature, and they conceive of this as a universal.
1:07:43Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianAnd then in the rest of the section, he goes on to explain just that, that the divine essence is conceived of as a universal by the Cappadocians.
1:07:52Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianSo what do you have to say in response to your buddy saying that?
1:07:55Jay DyerYeah. The Zach Huber book actually treats this that the notion of universal evolves
1:08:00Jay Dyerover time between the way the Cappadocians use it and the way that the post Chalcedonian
1:08:06Jay Dyerfathers use it up in the John Damascus and Saint Maximus.
1:08:09Jay DyerSo what's relevant for our debate in terms of
1:08:12Jay Dyerhuman universals
1:08:14Jay Dyeris not whether or not God's essence is common, but whether or not there are created universals. So that's what I was talking
1:08:20Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianabout. Question my question is my question is does Beau Branson believe
1:08:25Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianin this passage and what he argues for in his dissertation that the divine essence is universal? Yes or no?
1:08:31Jay DyerYou're equivocating on the term universal.
1:08:33Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianDoes he say that the divine essence is a universal?
1:08:35Jay DyerYou're equivocating on the term universal. Okay. So you won't say Do Do you
1:08:39Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianthink universal? Move on. I'm gonna move on.
1:08:41Jay DyerSo universal only has one sense.
1:08:43Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI'm gonna move on because it's clear to the audience. It's clear to the audience that you can't say that. Now let's move on to the LPT.
1:08:50Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianYou claim that I am counting by division
1:08:53Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianwithin God. Explain how I'm counting by division within God.
1:08:56Jay DyerWhen you use the term inseparable?
1:08:59Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI use the term inseparable means that I'm
1:09:02Jay DyerSeparation means division. Separation means division.
1:09:05Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI using that to count?
1:09:07Jay DyerWell, you said that the attributes are inseparable.
1:09:11Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianExactly. But how many attributes are there? Are there one or many?
1:09:15Jay DyerWell, is God's essence one?
1:09:18Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianHow many attributes are there? One or many according to my position?
1:09:23Jay DyerYou have you you believe in many.
1:09:24Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianOkay. They're many, and yet they're inseparable.
1:09:27Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianSo if they're inseparable from each other and there's many, how am I counting by division, genius?
1:09:33Jay DyerNo. In terms of the essence, you count by division by saying that it's one.
1:09:36Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianNo. There's one essence.
1:09:38Jay DyerRight. That's that's But where where
1:09:40Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianis your
1:09:40Jay DyerOh, he's undivided. Correct?
1:09:42Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianWhere is your accounting by division? There is none.
1:09:45Jay DyerOkay. Exactly. Doesn't mean that you're it doesn't mean that you're saying divided. A huge amount
1:09:50Jay Dyernot gonna let you're not it doesn't mean that you think he's divided.
1:09:52Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianYou you don't even understand the basics of this conversation. Let's move on. Let's let's move on.
1:09:58Jay DyerYou don't understand that you
1:09:58Jake the Muslim Metaphysiciandon't speak of the word. Now let now let's get to some other issues. What is the difference between and
1:10:06Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI
1:10:07Jay Dyerdon't know your terms.
1:10:09Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianYou don't know? No. So you have no idea what that means?
1:10:12Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianNo. Okay. And yet you think you're able to critique our position when these are basic terms.
1:10:17Jay DyerIs your religion made
1:10:19Jay Dyerfor all the world?
1:10:19Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianExactly. So is it just
1:10:20Jay Dyerfor Arabs or all the world?
1:10:22Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianNo. But even when I'm critiquing the trinity, I'm aware of the basic terms of what a hypothesis is, what an
1:10:28Jay DyerWell, I know something.
1:10:30Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI'm under I understand the basic
1:10:31Jay DyerIs this is this a debate about grammar?
1:10:33Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianOr This is a debate about the fact that you're ignorant of our tradition. Thank you very much.
1:10:37Jay DyerNow let's move on to the
1:10:39Jake the Muslim Metaphysiciannext let's move on to the next question.
1:10:42Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianWhy is it problematic to believe that the persons are identical to the essence as Thomas Aquinas and many Catholics hold? Why is that problematic?
1:10:51Jay DyerBecause it basically ends up in reducing person to nature and it would be modalism.
1:10:56Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianOkay. So would you consider that position heretical?
1:11:00Jay DyerYeah. If you mean identity in the sense of reductionist identity.
1:11:04Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianOkay. So the Trinity,
1:11:06Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianif you conceive of when you say the father is god, that the father is identical to god, would you agree that that's logically problematic because then it would follow that the father is identical to the son?
1:11:18Jay DyerWell, identity can be as the the sense of his of identity or predication.
1:11:22Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianYeah. I'm saying and the Catholics make it explicit. There's there's no difference between the person and the nature
1:11:28Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianin terms of the Thomists.
1:11:30Jay DyerSo Right.
1:11:31Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianThey say the father is identical to the nature or essence, and so are the son and the holy spirit, which by the logic of identity would follow that the father, son, and holy spirit are identical to each other. Do you agree with that critique?
1:11:44Jay DyerBut you could make that argument. That's why I said modalism. You know what
1:11:47Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianmodalism is?
1:11:48Jay DyerYeah. You know what modalism is?
1:11:49Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianYes. I do know what modalism is. Yeah.
1:11:51Jay DyerYou're just asking me again what I already said.
1:11:53Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianNo. Because I want you to be explicit,
1:11:56Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianbut I'm supposed to ask questions, not you. Thank you very much. Now how many persons are there in the Trinity?
1:12:01Jay DyerThree.
1:12:02Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianAre they separated by time or space?
1:12:05Jay DyerNo.
1:12:06Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianSo you count the persons by identity and not division. Right?
1:12:10Jay DyerCorrect.
1:12:11Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianOkay. Does God have one eternal attribute or energy or more than one?
1:12:15Jay DyerMore than one.
1:12:16Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianAre his eternal attributes separated from each other by time or space?
1:12:21Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianNo. Okay. So you count the attributes by identity and not division. Right?
1:12:27Jay DyerCorrect.
1:12:28Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianOkay. So if we count gods in the trinity by the same method of identity, how many gods would we count?
1:12:35Jay DyerDepends on what god picks out.
1:12:38Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianIf we're talking about the persons?
1:12:40Jay DyerThree.
1:12:41Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianSo there would be three gods if we counted by identity and the same method that we count the attributes or eternal energies
1:12:48Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianand the persons. Correct?
1:12:51Jay DyerRight.
1:12:52Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianOkay. Your friend Beau Banson says
1:12:54Jay DyerLittle little g god, as you know.
1:12:55Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianOkay. So your friend so there would be three little g gods. Thank you. Your friend Beau Branson says that today we count by identity.
1:13:01Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianSo that would mean by the standard way in which we count today, there would be three gods in the trinity. Correct?
1:13:08Jay DyerThe way that we count today is talking about post Frege.
1:13:11Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianOkay. So And that's
1:13:12Jay Dyerwhy and that's analytical
1:13:14Jay Dyerphilosophy. What
1:13:14Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianit says. I'm gonna quote what it says.
1:13:16Jay DyerBy ident so Today, we count But you don't want me to answer anything.
1:13:19Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianWe count no. I'm answering. I'm gonna give you more clarity.
1:13:22Jay DyerYeah. You're answering.
1:13:22Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianExactly. Today ask the
1:13:24Jay Dyerquestions and then you answer.
1:13:24Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianWe count f's by one logical subjects that are discernible from or at least not identical to one another and are f. That is x and y are diff if if x and y are different in any way and are both f ish, we count them as two f's. So that's in his explanation that we count today by identity yet you're quoting these other sources which is not even my argument. My argument is that you're inconsistent in your methodology.
1:13:50Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianSo do you have No.
1:13:50Jay DyerOnly if you think that you only if you think you've counted one way?
1:13:53Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianNo. No. No. It's not about one counting
1:13:55Jay Dyeralready forgive me. Like, I gotta I
1:14:00James Kunzsee if you can ask a question, Jake, just to keep it as strict as
1:14:03Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianpossible. I'm gonna ask you a question. What is the justification or argument for why we must count persons and attributes in God by identity but count gods by another method other than simply trying to avoid that you're a polytheist?
1:14:16Jay DyerBy the example that I gave from first order and second order imposition in the way that all of the ancient world counted.
1:14:22Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianSo there is no justification.
1:14:25Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianWould you're You're asking why we count the attributes in the person's identity,
1:14:29Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianbut we count
1:14:30Jay Dyerbecause different things because what what you can't understand is a different
1:14:34James KunzI'll give you a chance
1:14:35Jay Dyerto answer You're the not giving I I no. I've gotta wrap this up.
1:14:40James KunzI gotta be I'll give you a chance to answer the question, Jay, and then I've gotta wrap this up.
1:14:43Jay DyerOkay. Because that's Can I can I answer what he asked? He just talked the whole time. He didn't let me answer.
1:14:47James KunzYou can you can answer the last question he asked.
1:14:50Jay DyerYeah. So different things are counted in different ways. That's what I argued,
1:14:55Jay Dyerand I've argued that from my opening statement. Your argument hinges on only counting in one way, and you're taking out of context the fact that doctor Branson said that most people today post Frege think of counting on one way when this is a dispute about the way the people in the ancient medieval world counted, which is not by strictly by identity.
1:15:13James KunzWe'll jump into the seven minutes of Jay interrogating Jake.
1:15:18James KunzThe floor is all yours. Jay?
1:15:20Jay DyerJake, you said that you do have you're happy to affirm this sort of empiricist
1:15:25Jay Dyeranomalous position,
1:15:27Jay Dyerand that seems to necessitate the idea that
1:15:31Jay Dyerall the knowledge that we have comes from either sense data or relations of ideas.
1:15:36Jay DyerI'm just curious if you think that the peripatetic axiom itself is found in sense data.
1:15:41Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianThat's not my position. When did I ever say that I'm an empiricist?
1:15:45Jay DyerWell, if you're a nominalist, you're an empiricist.
1:15:47Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianHow does that follow?
1:15:49Jay DyerWell, you're supposed to ask
1:15:50Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianthe questions.
1:15:50Jay DyerSo you disagree with
1:15:52Jay Dyerhow what most people in your tradition?
1:15:55Jay DyerNo.
1:15:56Jay DyerSo you're not an empiricist?
1:15:58Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI'm not an empiricist by the standard that you just laid out.
1:16:01Jay DyerWell, so you don't think the knowledge comes from sense data?
1:16:04Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI do, but I don't think it's limited to sense data.
1:16:07Jay DyerI didn't limit it to that. I said also relations. I said relations of ideas.
1:16:11Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianYeah. I don't think it's limited to those two.
1:16:13Jay DyerOkay. Where else do we where where else does knowledge come from?
1:16:15Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianThe fitra.
1:16:17Jay DyerAnd that is what?
1:16:18Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianDo you know what it is?
1:16:19Jay DyerNo. I don't. That's why I asked you.
1:16:21Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianOkay. Well, similar kind of similar to your concept of the noose.
1:16:26Jay DyerSo a direct perception of god? Yes.
1:16:29Jay DyerHow do you directly perceive god as
1:16:31Jay Dyereven to me, it says god cannot be seen?
1:16:35Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianWhat do you mean? He says god cannot be seen? Of course, god can be seen.
1:16:39Jay DyerOh, how can God be seen?
1:16:43Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianHow can God be seen? I guess, Jay, you're not familiar with our
1:16:47Jay DyerYou're giggling. Yeah. Well, that's why we're asking you. I'm asking you. Asking you that.
1:16:51Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI'm asking you. Giggling. And it's and it's showing
1:16:52Jay DyerHow can God be seen? Is he showing the eyes?
1:16:54Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianIt's, yes. He is. It's showing that your ignorance that you don't even know. I'll let I'm glad
1:17:00Jay Dyeryou think I'm ignorant. So that's why you get the chance to you get the chance to enlighten us.
1:17:03Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI'm trying to.
1:17:04Jay DyerSo I'm filibustering.
1:17:05Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianIf you slow down soldier, I will. Yes.
1:17:08Jay DyerHow how is God seen by the eyes?
1:17:09Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianIf
1:17:10Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianyou allow me to talk, I'll tell you. By the beatific vision, we believe in the afterlife that we do see God with the eyes. Correct.
1:17:17Jay DyerHow do you but has anybody in this life seen God?
1:17:20Jay DyerNo.
1:17:21Jay DyerDoes God have a physical form?
1:17:22Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianNot
1:17:23Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianwith the eyes.
1:17:24Jay DyerDoes God have a physical form?
1:17:26Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianDefine what you mean by physical.
1:17:28Jay DyerThe body parts that are listed.
1:17:30Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianWe don't believe God has body parts. No.
1:17:32Jay DyerWell, you believe he has a foot. Right?
1:17:35Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianWe believe. Yes. We do believe he has a foot. We believe his hand
1:17:38Jay DyerWhat is a foot that's nothing like a created foot?
1:17:42Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianWhat is a foot that's nothing like a created foot?
1:17:45Jay DyerRight.
1:17:46Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianSame thing the same thing that an essence is that's nothing like a created essence.
1:17:50Jay DyerYeah. But our argument is not based on analogy for essence.
1:17:54Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI'm saying that any predicate that we ascribe to God and creation,
1:17:58Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianthere is a similarity in meaning,
1:18:00Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianbut it doesn't follow from that that there
1:18:02Jay Dyeris a similarity What's that similarity meaning?
1:18:04Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianLet me finish. Does not follow from that that there is a similarity
1:18:09Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianin ontology,
1:18:10Jay Dyerwhich is completely new. I understand. No. I understand that that's the meant to me a position. So I'm asking what is the similarity? Problem with it? What is the similarity?
1:18:18Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianWhat is the similarity in terms of the meaning? The color
1:18:20Jay DyerAnd what
1:18:20Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianis that?
1:18:21Jay DyerYou're just saying meaning. What is
1:18:22Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianSo we know it based on the text. So if you go to the example if you go to the example
1:18:27Jay DyerIs all of that empirically derived? Is the meaning empirically derived?
1:18:30Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianIf you if you allow me to finish.
1:18:32Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianIf you go to the text that describe the yed or the the foot,
1:18:37Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianfor example, the hands are described as being responsible
1:18:40Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianfor directly creating Adam.
1:18:43Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianSo this is how we understand the meanings of the text.
1:18:46Jay DyerSo you reference
1:18:47Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianattributes in context.
1:18:48Jay DyerSo you reference another created object. Right?
1:18:51Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianWhat's the created object?
1:18:53Jay DyerText.
1:18:55Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianNo. The text is not created.
1:18:57Jay DyerThe the text that you read is created. Right?
1:18:59Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianThe papers and the ink
1:19:00Jay Dyeris created. Exactly. That's the text.
1:19:02Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianThe papers and the ink, but the words are
1:19:05Jay DyerThat's called the text. I know you're talking about the eternal Quran. That's not what I'm talking
1:19:08Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI'm not talking about I don't even believe in an eternal Quran. What are talking
1:19:11Jay Dyerabout? So the the text that you derived that knowledge from is empirical. Right?
1:19:17Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianThe text that I derived,
1:19:19Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI don't understand the question.
1:19:20Jay DyerYeah. You don't understand the question exactly.
1:19:22Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianNo. I don't. It doesn't make any sense. Yeah. You would You think I believe in
1:19:25Jay Dyera You don't empirically read the Quran.
1:19:27Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianKnow my position.
1:19:27Jay DyerYou don't empirically read the Quran?
1:19:29Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianYes. We do.
1:19:31Jay DyerThat was the question I asked you. So you
1:19:32Jake the Muslim Metaphysiciando ask we we read But you did
1:19:33Jay Dyerunderstand that you just don't wanna ask you don't wanna answer. You understood it then.
1:19:36Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianNo.
1:19:38Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianYou you're you're you're not even able to ask you inappropriate questions.
1:19:42Jay DyerI asked you that. Yeah. And then you
1:19:44Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianget a believe in an eternal Quran. Where does it say that in the book you read?
1:19:48Jay DyerI'm asking you about your empiricism, which you don't wanna talk about. And you said
1:19:52Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianthat very So what
1:19:53Jay Dyeris a created foot? What is a what is a foot that's nothing like a created foot?
1:19:57Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianAnd I explained it to you.
1:19:58Jay DyerNo. You didn't. I explained
1:19:59Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianit to you. I said it's known
1:20:00Jay DyerGo to these
1:20:00Jake the Muslim Metaphysiciantexts. Said it's known
1:20:02Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI said it's known through the text.
1:20:04Jay DyerIt's right. Which is a circle of empirical
1:20:07Jay Dyersense data, which is what I'm asking
1:20:09Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianyou about. The circle?
1:20:10Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianHow do we know how do we know empiricism
1:20:13Jay Dyerto another empirical piece of data, to another empirical piece of data, you can never get out of this loop. That's why that's a problem for empiricism.
1:20:21Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianNo. It's not. Because it's the same thing when it comes to divine revelation
1:20:24Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianaccording to the orthodox.
1:20:26Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianHow do you know about the
1:20:27Jay Dyertwo quote way. No.
1:20:28Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianIt's
1:20:28Jay Dyernot. That's a two quote way. I wanna know your position.
1:20:30Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianHow do you know about the trinity?
1:20:31Jay DyerYou know about the trinity in
1:20:32Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianthe same manner. You know about the trinity
1:20:35Jay Dyerin same manner The moderator, he doesn't answer the questions. He just talks over me.
1:20:40Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianYou're complaining to the That's
1:20:41Jay Dyera tu quoque way.
1:20:42James KunzBack. Hold on one sec. You wanna reset. Hold on.
1:20:45Jay DyerTo I asked him about
1:20:46Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianmy position. However, if
1:20:47Jay Dyerhe I'm can asking I
1:20:50Jay Dyerasked about his position, and he said, your view of divine revelation. That's a two quote way. I'm asking about his position, which he won't explain.
1:20:57Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianOkay. James, whether or not my response is a fallacy is for the audience to decide. No. Moderators are involved in that.
1:21:04Jay DyerCan answer. That. Moderator step in
1:21:06Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianyeah, and I can answer and I can say
1:21:08Jay Dyeryou're not
1:21:09Jake the Muslim Metaphysiciananswer I can I can you're deflecting I can
1:21:13Jake the Muslim Metaphysiciancan give any answer I want
1:21:14Jay Dyeryeah exactly we only have a
1:21:16James Kunzminute left in the section
1:21:17Jay DyerI can give any you say anything you want which is what you're doing
1:21:20Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianExactly? I'm answering your question. You just don't like the answer because
1:21:23James Kunzyou can't keep my position. Do one last one last just to be sure I understand the question. Jay, if you can ask it one more time for me.
1:21:31Jay DyerRight. So I asked for his basis for knowing what the Quran teaches, which is empirical sense data. And I'm trying to get at the point that he can never get out of the domain, the veil of empirical sense data to ever actually know anything about Allah himself because much like the Thomist position, he's stuck in only seeing and interacting with created effects. So I'm trying to figure out he says, well, in the future, there'll be this direct perception
1:21:55Jay Dyerof Allah in the beatific vision. And I'm asking about the here and the now. How do you ever get out of the box of the challenge of human skepticism?
1:22:02Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianYeah. And I'm saying that we have a direct possession, direct
1:22:06Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianexperience of god right now through the concept of the fitra, which I explained. But since you don't even know what it is, it's no surprise that you
1:22:14Jay Dyerdon't understand. Explain what it is. So you're just so you're deflecting
1:22:17Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianmy experience. Corollary within
1:22:19Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianorthodox theology where I explained that it's similar to the concept of nous where there is a direct experience
1:22:26Jay DyerYou said that you said in the eschatology.
1:22:28Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianDirect no. No. No. No.
1:22:28Jay DyerNo. Yes. You did.
1:22:29Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianNo. No. No. You're confusing a seeing god with a direct experience of god. Those are not the same thing.
1:22:35Jay DyerSo is that had in this life?
1:22:36Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianYes. There's a direct experience of God right now that is not through some inferential process. It's not based on argumentation.
1:22:45Jay DyerHe's a truthful rod.
1:22:46James KunzWe we are at the end of the seven minutes for that section. We might have to come back to this in the next set.
1:22:51James KunzBut Sure. I have the clock set for seven minutes for you, Jake, to interpret Jay.
1:22:58Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianOkay. Give me one second.
1:22:59James KunzInterrogate,
1:23:00James Kunznot interpret.
1:23:03Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianWell, I gotta interpret what he's saying. But hold on a second. Let me just get my thing here.
1:23:08Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianOkay.
1:23:13Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianAlright. I'm ready whenever you are, James. Ready.
1:23:16Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianOkay.
1:23:17Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianAlright, Jay. We're back at it again.
1:23:20Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianLet's go to the next issue.
1:23:25Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianAlright.
1:23:28Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianHow many men are on this stage right now between Jake, James, and
1:23:32Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianJay?
1:23:34Jay DyerNone because we're not on a stage.
1:23:36Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianOkay. On this platform.
1:23:39Jay DyerThree.
1:23:40Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianThere's three men.
1:23:41Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianOkay. How come you don't count the same way in which Gregory of Nicaea counts Peter, James, and John three men in his work on not three gods when he says that there's only one man.
1:23:53Jay DyerBecause I already explained different things are counted different ways.
1:23:56Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianAnd you're counting three men as saying they're three men, but Gregory of Nicaea counts them as one man?
1:24:03Jay DyerWell, they're one in terms of nature.
1:24:06Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianAnd Gregory says that it's more appropriate to call them one man and that actually our way of calling them three men is incorrect.
1:24:15Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianSo it's better to change that than to call the persons of the Trinity three gods. That's his entire argument. So you by by you saying that there's three men here, you're actually disagreeing.
1:24:26Jay DyerNo. It's just two different senses of the same word which you constantly equivocate on.
1:24:31Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianOkay. Richard Cartwright says on this passage, it seems to have been left to Gregory of Nysa, Bezil's younger brother, to notice that thus understood,
1:24:39Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianconsubstantiality
1:24:40Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianof the father, son, and holy spirit appears to license saying that there are three gods. Gregory himself rather desperately suggested
1:24:48Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianthat strictly speaking, there is only one man. So do you agree that there's three men on this platform or one?
1:24:56Jay DyerThere's one man there's one human nature. In that sense, man can pick out nature, which is a common thing, and there's three men as individuated.
1:25:05Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianOkay. Gregory says about the logical problem of the Trinity, he says this question, which was asked to him by another bishop,
1:25:13Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianis very difficult to deal with If we should be able to find anything
1:25:17Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianthat may give support to the uncertainty of our mind so that it may longer totter and waver in this monstrous dilemma, it would be well. On the other hand, even if our reasoning found unequal to the problem, we must keep forever firm and unmoved the tradition with which we received by succession from the fathers. So Gregory is saying that the problem is difficult. Do you agree with that?
1:25:40Jay DyerDepending upon how you cash it out, if you think that the logical problem of Trinity is identical to the Arian disputes, then you're engaging in anachronism.
1:25:48Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianThis isn't about an Arian dispute. This is specifically where he sets up the problem in his work on not three gods in responding to a blabius where he's asking them, well, we say that the father, son, and holy spirit are each god.
1:26:01Jay DyerYeah. But you're making
1:26:02Jake the Muslim Metaphysiciana mistake. We forbid men to say that there are three gods. So this is the very problem of trite theism.
1:26:09Jay DyerNo. We forget we forbid three gods if you mean three natures.
1:26:12Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianOkay. So here we go. Next question.
1:26:15Jay DyerSo do you understand
1:26:16Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianAccording
1:26:17Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianto you, the father has the power to cause another divine person and alone causes the son and the holy spirit.
1:26:24Jay DyerAlready answered this. You're equivocating power.
1:26:26Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianDo the son and holy spirit have the power to cause another divine person?
1:26:31Jay DyerYou're equivocating on power. Power is not an energy.
1:26:34Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianDo the son I didn't ask about energy. Do the son and holy spirit
1:26:37Jay DyerYour argument is saying that
1:26:39Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianyour argument and holy spirit have the ability to cause another divine person?
1:26:43Jay DyerCausing a divine person is not an energy.
1:26:46Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianDo they have the ability to cause another divine person? No. Okay. They don't. Thank you.
1:26:52Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianIf no, then do they have the same power?
1:26:55Jay DyerThat's only if power is
1:26:57Jay Dyerviewed as an energy. And I just argue that the power that we're talking about here is not really correctly called power. It's called begetting.
1:27:05Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianOkay. But it has to do with an action, doesn't it?
1:27:08Jay DyerWell, it's acting a different sense than energy, and that's what Athanasius argued against the Arian's.
1:27:13Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianYeah. I'm not asking about energy.
1:27:15Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI'm asking about the actions of all power. Your argument Power is what power is what an agent is able to do. Do you agree?
1:27:24Jay DyerPower is no. There's multiple senses to the word power.
1:27:27Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianOkay. So when I say that god is all powerful,
1:27:29Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI mean that he can do whatever is medically feasible.
1:27:32Jay DyerActuality, second actuality, and there's power in divine Abraham.
1:27:35Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianAre you
1:27:35Jay Dyergonna let me finish?
1:27:36Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI didn't ask you a question yet. You're already cutting No.
1:27:39Jay DyerDidn't You've asked multiple questions that you immediately thought.
1:27:41Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI'm explaining to you what actuality, second I'm explaining to you what the understanding of power is. I'm giving you my definition.
1:27:48Jay DyerYou don't know the you don't know
1:27:49Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianthe opposite. Definition
1:27:50Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianof power.
1:27:51Jay DyerI don't care
1:27:51Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianabout your definition
1:27:52Jay Dyerof power.
1:27:53Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianMy definition of power is
1:27:55Jay DyerYour definition is not relevant.
1:27:56Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianWhatever
1:27:57Jake the Muslim Metaphysiciana being can possibly do.
1:28:00Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianNow I'm asking
1:28:01Jay DyerThat's not our view.
1:28:02Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianDoes the son have the same ability
1:28:05Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianto do whatever the father can do? Yes or no?
1:28:08Jay DyerIt's it's equivocating on the word power.
1:28:10Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI just gave you the definition of power.
1:28:12Jay DyerThat's
1:28:14Jay Dyeryour definition. I don't Exactly. So according to my definition. So you understand that every argument that you make where you reduce words to having a single definition just restates your position. So that's why it's a valid move.
1:28:24Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianNo. It doesn't. It does. Oh, it doesn't because the capsule
1:28:26Jay DyerSo you're not interested in our I
1:28:28James Kunzthink this this might be a good opportunity to
1:28:30James Kunzit could be that, Jay, if you wanna answer it according to your own definition of power, and you can share that definition. And then if you're willing to humor Jake's question using Jake's definition of power.
1:28:42Jay DyerRight. So Jake wants a single definition of what power is according to what he says it is.
1:28:48Jay DyerAnd if he's gonna critique our position, then it needs to be our understanding of first actuality,
1:28:53Jay Dyersecond actuality, which we ascribe to God, and there's different senses to power.
1:28:58Jay DyerI can have power as a potentiality that I possess that I don't actualize.
1:29:01Jay DyerI could also have power as an actualized
1:29:04Jay Dyerenergy that I'm engaging in. Or sometimes, in the sense of Athanasius talking about the father begetting,
1:29:11Jay Dyerhe says, you could call this an act, but it's not acting the same way that god as a triad acts in terms of the energies. So Jake's argument hinges on reducing
1:29:20Jay Dyerthe word act
1:29:22Jay Dyerto having one sense in god, and we simply don't have that view.
1:29:25Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianOkay. That's not my argument, but let's move on to
1:29:27Jay Dyerthe next question. That's what you argue.
1:29:28Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianLet's move on to the next question here. Does the
1:29:31Jay DyerYou're moving on because it doesn't work.
1:29:32Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianDoes the father no. Because you've already been refuted. Does the father does
1:29:36Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianthe father have the ability to become incarnate?
1:29:40Jay DyerWe're not told that. So
1:29:42Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianyou don't know. You're agnostic on the proposition.
1:29:45Jay DyerWell, there's nothing about that. So there's no reason
1:29:47Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianto Do you know about it or not? Can the father become incarnate?
1:29:50Jay DyerYou're so you're not even letting me answer. You're just immediately cutting me off. I just simply I just simply said there's not any information about that,
1:29:57Jay Dyerand the way that Jesus speaks is that no one has seen the father at any time. So there's no incarnation of
1:30:01Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianthe father. So people have interpreted John of Damascus as arguing that the father cannot be incarnate
1:30:07Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianwhen he says in his exposition of orthodox faith book four,
1:30:10Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianthe father is the father and the and not the son. The son is son and not father. The holy spirit is spirit and not father or son or father or son. For the individuality is unchangeable. How indeed could the individuality
1:30:22Jake the Muslim Metaphysiciancontinue to exist at all if it were ever changing and altering? Wherefore the son of God became son of man in order that his individuality
1:30:31Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianmight endure. So he's arguing that this must include that the son only can become incarnate in order for the individuality of the distinctions
1:30:40Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianbetween the persons. So do you agree with that interpretation?
1:30:42James KunzI'll give you the individuality. Sanjay and then we've we've actually just hit the seven minute
1:30:46Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI'm just asking, do agree with that interpretation? That's all.
1:30:49Jay DyerIt's the individuality
1:30:51Jay Dyerof the persons as known by us. So, has not incarnation is not what lets us know or what conditions
1:30:58Jay Dyerthe distinctions in the triad.
1:31:00James KunzWe'll kick it over to Jay for his seven minutes to interrogate. Jake, the floor is yours.
1:31:06Jay DyerJake, earlier when you were talking about, your view of epistemology
1:31:09Jay Dyerand whatnot,
1:31:10Jay Dyerdo you agree with the position of Ibn Tamiya as related on page one ninety six of the Soleiman book that the principles of reasoning are self evident truths?
1:31:21Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI would have to look at the reference, but define self evident.
1:31:25Jay DyerNot relying on anything else to be the case.
1:31:28Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI believe that they are known directly through the fitra.
1:31:33Jay DyerAnd that is what?
1:31:35Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianWhat I explained before similar to the news.
1:31:37Jay DyerWhat is what?
1:31:38Jay DyerWhat is what?
1:31:39Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI said I explained it before similar to the noose.
1:31:42Jay DyerOkay. So every individual in an inner sense just knows self evidently that what the law of logic is true the laws of logic are true?
1:31:50Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianHe knows that certain principles like that a half is less than a whole. He knows these things directly, not through some type of inference.
1:31:58Jay DyerAre they self evident?
1:32:00Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianSelf evident only in the sense that he knows them directly through
1:32:04Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianthe fitrah.
1:32:05Jay DyerOkay. So they don't rely on
1:32:07Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianThey're not from an inference.
1:32:08Jay DyerSo they don't rely so they don't rely on anything else to be true?
1:32:13Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianThey rely on God to exist to create us with that
1:32:16Jay Dyerfaith of a paparazzi. We don't know that that's the case yet. So you do you do believe they're self evident?
1:32:21Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI know. I said that they're not self evident in in the sense that you're talking perception.
1:32:27Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianThey're not dependent on human perception. They're prior to
1:32:29Jay DyerI didn't say are they dependent. I said are they self evident to human perception.
1:32:33Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianSelf evident in the sense that they they are known directly through the fitra as an apparatus.
1:32:39Jay DyerOkay. So
1:32:41Jay Dyerhow do we adjudicate
1:32:43Jay Dyerbetween the things that are self evident and the things that aren't?
1:32:48Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianBy the fact of our existence. We know that, for example, a half is greater than a whole.
1:32:53Jay DyerAnd that's a foul so that's a foulsy.
1:32:55Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI mean, sorry. A whole is greater than a half. Yeah.
1:32:56Jay DyerThat's a foul. They're they're appealing to
1:32:59Jay Dyerdoesn't justify the truth.
1:33:01Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI'm I make I explained to you how.
1:33:03Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianIt's because we know them directly
1:33:06Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianthrough the fitrah.
1:33:07Jay DyerSo we know them because we
1:33:08Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianknow them.
1:33:08Jay DyerSo that's
1:33:09Jake the Muslim Metaphysiciana circle. No. It isn't. I I explained how we know them.
1:33:12Jay DyerYou just said we know them because we exist and experience them.
1:33:16Jay DyerThat's a circle.
1:33:17Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI said I said that we experience
1:33:19Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianthem
1:33:20Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianthrough the apparatus of the fitrah, which God has created human beings upon.
1:33:26Jay DyerYeah. But how do know how do we know the difference between those and the non self evident truths is what I asked you? You said by existence.
1:33:33Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianBecause they're self evident as you just said.
1:33:35Jay DyerOh, so now you do believe in self evidence.
1:33:37Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianSelf evident in the sense that they're not based upon inference.
1:33:41Jay DyerAnd how do we know those distinct from the ones that aren't?
1:33:43Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianBecause you know when you make an inference and when you don't. And if you don't, then you
1:33:47Jay Dyerget an problem. So reality is reality. So t jumps.
1:33:49Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianDid you get this from t jump? Do you know the difference between when you're making an inference and when
1:33:54Jay Dyeryou're not? I'm asking you questions, not you.
1:33:56Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianExactly. Right. So I'm telling you. We know the difference between when we make an inference and when we don't make an inference.
1:34:02Jay DyerYeah. But that's not answering the question I'm at. I'm asked for the I'm asked for the justification for the division between the self referential and the non self referential. What's the justification?
1:34:10Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianThe justification is that the self referential,
1:34:13Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianwhich you're talking about, the self evident ones, do not rely upon inference where other
1:34:18Jay Dyerpeople because they're self evident. That's the truth.
1:34:21Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianSelf evident because they don't reply on inference.
1:34:25Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianAnd you're
1:34:25Jay Dyerasking yourself, we don't because they're self evident.
1:34:27Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianBecause when I make an argument when I make an argument and I appeal to an inference rule, I know that I'm appealing to an inference rule.
1:34:35Jay DyerSo there's that's a circle, Jake. This is a basic epistemology problem for your empiricism.
1:34:40Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianDo you have a question, sir?
1:34:41Jay DyerOh, exactly.
1:34:42Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianYou have a question.
1:34:43Jay DyerYou ready for me to move on?
1:34:45Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI'm no. I'm asking you if you have a question.
1:34:47Jay DyerSo how do we know the difference between the self referential self
1:34:50Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianreferential and non?
1:34:51Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI already answered your question. No.
1:34:52Jay DyerYou didn't. You you just restated the No.
1:34:54Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianWe know. No. No. You said how do we know that they're
1:34:57Jay Dyerself How do we know the difference?
1:34:58Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianHow do we know
1:34:59Jay DyerIt's called the criteria problem.
1:35:00Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianNo. How do we know?
1:35:02Jay DyerYes. It is. It's called the criteria. Are you familiar with the criteria
1:35:05Jake the Muslim Metaphysiciannot problem? Answering
1:35:07Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI know what the criterion problem is.
1:35:08Jay DyerThat's my point. What is it? That's not
1:35:10Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianmy point. I'm saying to you
1:35:12Jay DyerThat's my question. So that's why you're saying it's not your point.
1:35:14Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianSaying to you that you're asking me how do I know the difference between what's self evident and what is known through an inference?
1:35:21Jay DyerNo. But when what's not self evident.
1:35:24Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianRight. And the opposite of not being self evident is something that is known
1:35:28Jay DyerSo you're in the criterion problem, Jake.
1:35:31Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianIt's
1:35:33Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI've explained it I've explained it three times. It's very simple
1:35:36Jay Dyerto understand. But it's not answering the criterion problem. Do you
1:35:38Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianknow what it know if you don't know the difference
1:35:40Jay DyerDo you know what the criterion problem is?
1:35:42Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI already answered that question. Do you
1:35:44Jay Dyerknow what the problem is? Yes. What is it?
1:35:46Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI do. You just explain the problem to me.
1:35:49Jay DyerModerator, he won't answer. Do you know who's associated with it?
1:35:53Jay DyerWho's associated with what? The criteria problem.
1:35:56Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianIt's a problem in epistemology.
1:35:57Jay DyerYeah. Who's who's associated with it?
1:35:59Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI don't know who the Origen is.
1:36:01Jay DyerSo it's David Chisholm. So how do you answer the criteria problem?
1:36:03Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI'm I'm giving you an answer. I've been doing it for the past five minutes.
1:36:07Jay DyerSo you'll notice in the debate, Jake just lost same he doesn't answer the objection. And he says that it's self evident because it's self evident.
1:36:14Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianNo. I never said
1:36:15Jay DyerNever said that. Everybody heard him say it's self evident because it exists.
1:36:20Jay DyerWe don't said. That is what
1:36:21Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianhe said. Do we know? And I said, we know it through a divinely created
1:36:27Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianapparatus.
1:36:28Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianThat's how we know it.
1:36:29Jay DyerWe don't know that yet.
1:36:30Jay DyerIs your starting point.
1:36:32Jay DyerWhat do you mean? We're talking about starting points. You're appealing to divine apparatuses. I'm talking about the starting point.
1:36:38Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI'm saying that that according to our epistemology,
1:36:41Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianthe fitra is how we know these things, and we know that because it's we're created upon it.
1:36:48Jay DyerYeah. But the question is about, do you know that you're created that way? And you're just saying, well, we're made that way. That's my question.
1:36:53Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianSaying we know we're created because we have a direct experience.
1:36:56Jay DyerNo. I'm asking about the principles of reason themselves.
1:37:00Jay DyerAnd you said you believe in self evidence, and then I said, okay. And then I asked you the criterion problem, and you haven't answered the criterion problem. You keep talking around it.
1:37:07Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI've answered your question several times.
1:37:10Jay DyerI your answer was circular.
1:37:12Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianExplain the circle.
1:37:14Jay DyerBecause you said that, well, I know it's self evident because it's self evident and when I'm not doing something that's an inference.
1:37:20Jay DyerThat's not answering the criteria. No.
1:37:22Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianNo. You asked how how do I know it? What's the justification?
1:37:25Jay DyerExplained
1:37:26Jay DyerYou don't even understand the question. You'll restate that question again.
1:37:29Jay DyerI said, what is
1:37:30Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianthe justification?
1:37:31Jay DyerWhat is the justification for the for the belief that you know the difference between the self evident ones and the non self evident ones? So the criteria problem is saying that you have a more fundamental criteria by which you cash out these two different things and put them into different classes.
1:37:46Jay DyerHow do you know that more fundamental
1:37:48Jay Dyerchism issue is what I'm asking?
1:37:50Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianYeah. And I'm repeating the same exact answer. We know it based on the fact that we are created by god with a direct experience
1:38:00Jay Dyerof those things. Circle that that doesn't justify the criteria from. That doesn't tell us Jake, that doesn't tell us that we know the the the fundamental criteria is the case.
1:38:09James KunzWe are out of time. We gotta kick it over to Jake to interrogate Jay, and this is our final set. So we'll have one seven minute section of Jake interrogating Jay and then one last
1:38:21James Kunzinterrogation
1:38:22James Kunzof Jay
1:38:24James Kunzon Jake. With that, Jake, the floor is all yours.
1:38:29Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianOkay.
1:38:36Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianSorry about that. I'm just, getting my notes up here.
1:38:40James KunzNo problem. Folks, if you haven't yet, check out our guests linked below.
1:38:45James KunzThere's a value in hearing their positions firsthand
1:38:48James Kunzfrom them. This debate is a great introduction to their views, but check out their channels. That includes the podcast. We've linked both of our guests below.
1:38:57Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianOkay. I'm ready.
1:38:58James KunzReady.
1:38:59Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianOkay. Jay,
1:39:00Jake the Muslim Metaphysiciando you have an argument or justification
1:39:03Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianfor the claim that the trinity and orthodox
1:39:06Jake the Muslim Metaphysiciantheology or the orthodox church specifically
1:39:09Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianis a precondition
1:39:11Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianfor rationality,
1:39:12Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianintelligibility,
1:39:13Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianand all the other transcendental categories. Do you have an argument justification for that?
1:39:17Jay DyerYes. What is it? It's a two parter. Can I can I explain it? Yeah. Go ahead. So the first part is that it's a reductio ad absurdum argument when you deny it. This is called retortion in Aristotelian argumentation.
1:39:30Jay DyerAnd the second part of the argument is to posit the Christian worldview
1:39:34Jay Dyeras the way to ground the transcendental categories
1:39:37Jay Dyerthat are the preconditions for all possible knowledge.
1:39:41Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianYeah. You're saying to posit them, but what's the justification
1:39:45Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianfor the claim that it is the only system
1:39:49Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianthat can account for those things. Is there do you provide arguments or not?
1:39:53Jay DyerRetortion. Correct. The first the first one is retortion.
1:39:56Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianOkay. Explain what retortion is.
1:39:58Jay DyerDo you know you're Jake the Muslim metaphysician.
1:40:00Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianDo you I know what it is, but I've actually seen in your k.
1:40:02Jay DyerWhat is it?
1:40:03Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI've actually seen in your videos
1:40:04Jay Dyerk. What is
1:40:05Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianyou're not asking me questions. I'm asking you questions.
1:40:08Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianYou've explained in your videos that you critique the Thomists when they bring up the issue of retortion.
1:40:15Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianSo can you explain it and explain how when they use it, they're not justified in doing so, but you are.
1:40:22Jay DyerBecause they're classical foundationalists like you, and it's a reductio organ.
1:40:26Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI'm not a classical foundationalist.
1:40:28Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianNow it's a reductio
1:40:29Jay DyerYou are. You are.
1:40:30Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI'm not a classical foundationalist. You are? You're gonna tell me my own epistemology.
1:40:34Jay DyerI mean, the way you argued in the last comment the in the last section just
1:40:38Jake the Muslim Metaphysiciansaid not a classical foundationalist. The way you just argued Again, I'm gonna ask you
1:40:41Jay DyerYou believe in self evident truths.
1:40:42Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI'm gonna ask you again, Jack.
1:40:44Jay DyerBelieve in self evident truths
1:40:45Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianor you're lying? I'm I'm asking lying because you are asking I'm asking you questions. Yeah.
1:40:51Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI'm I'm supposed to be asking him questions just to be clear. Okay, Jay. Again, I'm going to ask you. When you critique The Thomist,
1:40:59Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianyou're saying the only reason is because they're a classical foundationalist
1:41:03Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianand you're not? How does that affect the legitimacy
1:41:06Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianof them making the same move that you are?
1:41:09Jay DyerBecause like you, they don't understand a meta level argument.
1:41:13Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianOkay. So why don't you explain it to us other than making a claim?
1:41:16Jay DyerI didn't make a claim. I said that the first part of the argument is reductio or retortion argument showing the absurdity of that worldview.
1:41:23Jay DyerAnd then the second part of the argument is to show and argue that only the orthodox Christian metaphysic, epistemology, and ethic can ground the transcendental categories of the preconditions for any possible knowledge.
1:41:35Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianOkay. So there's two parts to it, Jay. Let's deal with the first part. Does the first part alone
1:41:41Jake the Muslim Metaphysiciangive justification
1:41:42Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianfor the claim that the orthodox theological positions
1:41:46Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianare the only justification for the preconditions of intelligibility and all the other transcendental categories?
1:41:51Jay DyerNo. All retorsion shows is that the other position is absurd.
1:41:55Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianOkay. So it only shows that that position is absurd. So that doesn't justify it. So the second part is is positing
1:42:02Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianthe orthodox position. But that's the very thing that we're asking for. What is the justification
1:42:09Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianfor the claim that the orthodox position alone
1:42:12Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianjustifies the preconditions of intelligibility.
1:42:15Jay DyerCorrect.
1:42:15Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianSo what is it? You're just restating the claim. You're not giving an argument?
1:42:19Jay DyerNo. It's a that you're confusing a first order argument with a meta level argument.
1:42:23Jay DyerIt's a category error.
1:42:25Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianYou keep saying I'm confusing and you're making claims, but then you're never giving any content to your claim.
1:42:30Jay DyerI just stated the content. You just don't understand it.
1:42:32Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianNo. I know I do understand what you're saying. You just said you just said
1:42:36Jay DyerThen you should understand what a meta level argument
1:42:38Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianYou just said it's a meta level argument. Right. And I see here from your good friend,
1:42:44Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianAnais. Right? Father deacon Anais, I've read his paper and was very interesting, actually.
1:42:49Jay DyerToo bad you didn't understand it.
1:42:50Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianYeah. Too bad I didn't understand it. I mean, it was so terrible he contradicts himself up and down on the same page.
1:42:56Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianAnd he explicitly says
1:42:58Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianthat the tag argument to ask for a justification
1:43:02Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianfor positing the orthodox view is wrongheaded
1:43:05Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianbecause it's prior to epistemology.
1:43:08Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianAn argument
1:43:09Jay Dyerheaded in the first order of reasoning.
1:43:11Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianOkay. So then there is
1:43:12Jay Dyerno That's my point.
1:43:13Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianThere is no justification of why by the criterion
1:43:17Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianNo.
1:43:18Jay DyerBy first order reasoning.
1:43:19Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianBy the criterion problem you were asking by the criterion problem you were asking me about,
1:43:25Jake the Muslim Metaphysiciando you have a justification
1:43:27Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianfor the claim that the Eastern Orthodox position alone
1:43:31Jake the Muslim Metaphysiciansuffices
1:43:32Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianfor the grounding transcendentals?
1:43:36Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianDo you have a justification
1:43:38Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianthat meets the the criterion of justification that you have?
1:43:41Jay DyerThe first part is the absurdity of your worldview in our case in this debate, and the second part is the coherence
1:43:47Jay Dyerand the grounding work that the orthodox Christian worldview does for things like universals, laws of logic,
1:43:54Jay Dyerobjective ethics,
1:43:56Jay Dyeridentity over time. All those metaphysical principles make sense in a world that's where God is the creator.
1:44:02Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianOkay, Jay, which is exactly what I said. So, Jay, in the problem of orthodoxy in orthodoxy argument,
1:44:10Jake the Muslim Metaphysiciandoes Alan Siegel, from your reading of his two powers in heaven, does he say that the two powers in heaven view is heretical?
1:44:18Jay DyerYeah. Okay.
1:44:20Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianDo Segal and Boyarin consider the two powers in heaven view akin to Logos theology?
1:44:28Jay DyerThey relate. I don't know if they'd be akin.
1:44:30Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianOkay. They relate it. So
1:44:32Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianis Logos Because
1:44:33Jay Dyerit goes back to Philo.
1:44:34Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianIs yeah. Is Logos theology heretical according to orthodox Christianity?
1:44:39Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianMeaning, the theology of Philo. Is that heretical?
1:44:42Jay DyerYeah. Philo's position would be binitarian.
1:44:45Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianOkay. According to Boyarin,
1:44:47Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianJohn Bear, and the Catholic Encyclopedia,
1:44:49Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianwas Justin Martyr a proponent of logos theology or orthodox trinitarianism?
1:44:55Jay DyerI think that Justin had a form of logos theology and trinitarianism.
1:45:00Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianOkay. Is Justin Martyr a saint in the Orthodox Church?
1:45:03Jay DyerHe is, and I we address this in the Inspiring Philosophy stream, all of your arguments.
1:45:08Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianIs it permissible to pray to him?
1:45:10Jay DyerWe ask for his intercession.
1:45:12Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianOkay. So when he declares that Jesus is another god and says that the son is a product of the father's will, are those heretical positions?
1:45:22Jay DyerThere's a there might be a lack of clarity there, but we already addressed this in the aspiring philosophy
1:45:27Jay Dyerstream.
1:45:28Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianIs it heretical to believe that the son is a product of the father's will?
1:45:32Jay DyerThere's probably some lack of clarity there if if that's an authentic text.
1:45:36Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianYeah. Is it heretical to believe that the son is a product of the father's will?
1:45:41Jay DyerYeah. If if he means it in that sense, we would say it's wrong.
1:45:44Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianOkay. Is it heretical?
1:45:46Jay DyerIt could be.
1:45:46Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianOkay. So it's permissible
1:45:48Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianto pray to heretical saints. Correct?
1:45:51Jay DyerWell, we don't automatically think that if somebody got something wrong, they're necessarily a heretic. I mean, Augustine made Augustine made many mistakes.
1:45:59Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianMany heresies?
1:46:01Jay DyerWell a heresy is decided to Right? Be
1:46:05Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianAugustine believed in a filioque. Right?
1:46:06Jay DyerCorrect.
1:46:07Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianIs that heresy?
1:46:08Jay DyerWhen it becomes known as a heresy. Yes.
1:46:10Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianOkay. So now it would be heretical to believe in that?
1:46:13Jay DyerThat's what councils are for. Correct.
1:46:14Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianOkay. Thank you very much. So do Ephesus believe in divine simplicity, Jay?
1:46:21Jay DyerI don't remember.
1:46:22Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianYou don't know if you don't know if we believe in divine simplicity?
1:46:26Jay DyerWell, you say that not in the sense of absolute divine simplicity.
1:46:29Jay DyerAre we occasionalists?
1:46:31Jay DyerSome.
1:46:33Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianIs Ibn Taymiyy an occasionalist?
1:46:35Jay DyerIbn Taymiyyah's position seems to be that created causes actually happen,
1:46:41Jay Dyerbut God can also reverse them.
1:46:44Jay DyerBut he doesn't seem to affirm a strict occasionalism.
1:46:47Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianOkay. So is he an occasionalist or not? You don't know?
1:46:50Jay DyerI just answered that.
1:46:51Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianDoes he believe in secondary causality?
1:46:55Jay DyerHe says that they're not necessary,
1:46:57Jay Dyerbut God can change them.
1:46:59Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianDoes he believe in secondary causality? It's a basic term.
1:47:02Jay DyerI just answered that.
1:47:03Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianYes or no. Does he believe in secondary causality?
1:47:06Jay DyerI just answered it, dude.
1:47:07Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianYou didn't answer it. I did. Does he believe in secondary causality?
1:47:10Jay DyerYou want me to read you his position from the book?
1:47:13Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI just asked you, does he believe in secondary causality? It's a yes or no question.
1:47:16James KunzI'll give you a chance to respond, Jay. We've run out of that seven minutes.
1:47:19Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianOkay. Yeah. No problem.
1:47:22Jay DyerYeah. And the best of my understanding of his position is that he thinks that there's
1:47:27Jay Dyerthere is real causality in the world. It's not
1:47:30Jay Dyerit doesn't operate apart from God's will, and that if God wills to, he can do a miracle or do something differently.
1:47:38Jay DyerSo I'm on I I mean, I I couldn't figure out what exactly his position is because I think it's a bunch of contradictions. So
1:47:45Jay Dyerwhat's up next? Are we doing
1:47:47James KunzIt'll be seven minutes of you interrogating Jake, and then we'll go into the closings before the q and a.
1:47:54James KunzAlright.
1:48:00Jay DyerSo you you seem to have a problem with the idea of
1:48:03Jay Dyerreductios and internal critiques and
1:48:06Jay Dyermeta logic.
1:48:07Jay DyerI'm not sure why this would be a problem for you given that you're named the Muslim meta physician. I don't have a problem. Do you know what meta logic is?
1:48:15Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI don't have a problem with the critique.
1:48:18Jay DyerYou don't have a problem with the transcend argument?
1:48:20Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianNo. I have a problem with your use of it.
1:48:25Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianK. Do you know seen my if you've seen my debate on this channel, I
1:48:28Jay DyerI don't watch all your debates. I I you exactly. Puts me to sleep. I can't listen
1:48:32Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI've to used a form of
1:48:33Jay DyerI put you on four times to listen to it, and it's still unbearable. So Okay. What I'm trying to figure out is know what Metalogic is?
1:48:41Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianNo. Tell me. What's Metalogic, Jay? I have no idea what it is.
1:48:44Jay DyerWell, that answer that condescending answer is like you do know.
1:48:47Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI have no idea what metalogic is. Okay. Yeah. Tell me. I have no idea.
1:48:52Jay DyerSo it's the questioning of how logic itself works. Right?
1:48:55Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianOkay. Good.
1:48:56Jay DyerSo
1:48:57Jay Dyeris it invalid to speak of metological argumentation?
1:49:02Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianNo.
1:49:02Jay DyerOkay. But your critique, for example, of the way that father argued
1:49:07Jay Dyerin that paper was that he was contradicting himself because he argued that there's no justification for transcendental arguments
1:49:14Jay Dyerin a orthodox sense of
1:49:17Jay Dyernot the first order imp or first order argumentation, first order logic. He's talking about meta level argumentation.
1:49:24Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianWas that a question?
1:49:25Jay DyerSo what I'm asking you is that why do you have a problem with it if it's too if you if you understood that it's a meta level argument?
1:49:31Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianOkay. My problem with father deacon Ananonias
1:49:35Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianwhen problem with what he said in the paper is that he makes the claim and he seems to make the claim that it's a metological problem or a metological argument. Sorry.
1:49:44Jay DyerRight.
1:49:44Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianAnd therefore,
1:49:46Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianit it would make no sense to ask for justification
1:49:50Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianor argumentation
1:49:51Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianbecause
1:49:52Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianit's prior to argumentation.
1:49:54Jay DyerThat's what Yeah. But that's still a form of there's still you can still justify it. It just becomes a paradigm level justification.
1:50:00Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianYeah. I understand that. But that's not what my criticism is. My criticism is that then later in the paper,
1:50:06Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianhe seemingly does try to justify it when he says and he talks about which I I gave the quote, don't wanna waste your time, where he says, for only in the orthodox doctrine of God, we will see that God is the necessary condition, is rational, omniscient, transcendent,
1:50:21Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianand so on and so forth.
1:50:22Jay DyerRight. That was what I
1:50:22Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianwas giving he starts giving all of those reasons
1:50:26Jay DyerRight.
1:50:26Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianWhich is the exact same thing that I would do. So what's the problem?
1:50:30Jay DyerWell, you have a different metaphysic as as I pointed out in my opening statement and in the critiques about your ideas of self evident truths. So you have a different metaphysic.
1:50:39Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI agree with that. But then it comes down to don't you agree that then it comes down to the difference in our metaphysics, which are the debates
1:50:47Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianthat's what we're supposed to
1:50:48Jay Dyerbe Yeah. But your starting point was self evident truths of reason. I I know you that you claim that you also start with the direct perception or intuitive whatever sense that you have of a
1:50:57Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianlot of about that?
1:50:59Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianYou think I'm lying
1:51:00Jay Dyerthat No. But I'm saying that it bypasses and ignores the question of the first principles of natural theology or reasoning, which you're committed to.
1:51:09Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianYeah. But I thought that you, as an orthodox, believe that the noose in the same manner is a legitimate thing to appeal to.
1:51:16Jay DyerThat's a quote No.
1:51:18Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI'm no. It's not. It's saying that no. It's not. It's saying that because of the same fact that we are debating
1:51:25Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianmetaphysics.
1:51:26Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianYeah. But I have similar position when
1:51:29Jay Dyerit comes to that point. The difference is that in letter two thirty four of Bezle, which was my closing statement, which I had to rush through. If people wanna go back, they can screenshot it. I noted the argument that the energy's come down to us, and that's why we have a basis for
1:51:43Jay Dyeraffirmation
1:51:44Jay Dyeror what we call cataphatic affirm
1:51:46Jay Dyerbelieve
1:51:47Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianin the same thing. What?
1:51:48Jay DyerJust the basic Yeah. But my that's why my whole argument this time was that when you try to do the naming,
1:51:53Jay Dyerwhen even to me, for example, explains in what sense there is similarity or likeness or resemblance, he says that it is not like the created mode of of being. So it actually tells us nothing. So your naming tells us nothing because you don't have an energy's doctrine that comes down to us. That was the argument.
1:52:07Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI do. We do have the same doctrine in terms
1:52:09Jay Dyerof No.
1:52:10Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianYou don't? Yes. We do in terms of the energies coming down. When an energy comes down, does it attach to a human being?
1:52:16Jay DyerIt has nothing to with attaching. It has to do with how we predicate. That's the argument here. Yep. So And yeah. What does it mean to why I asked you about the foot, and I asked you if a god foot
1:52:26Jay Dyeris nothing like a human foot, what does it tell us? What's the meaning that is that's given us there?
1:52:30Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianIn the same way that when I say that this paper has whiteness
1:52:34Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianthat is nothing like the whiteness in your forehead
1:52:37Jay DyerSo you're still using a paper is a creative thing.
1:52:39Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianUnderstand it
1:52:40Jay Dyerin the These are creatures. These are creatures.
1:52:42Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianYeah. They're creatures, and we believe that
1:52:44Jay DyerSo that so another creature,
1:52:46Jay Dyerwhich is totally unlike Allah, tells us nothing about all so these names and these predicates aren't telling us anything as we've done.
1:52:52Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianYou're no. I'm giving you an argument to show you how
1:52:54Jay Dyerthey Your argument refers to another creature.
1:52:57Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianNo. You're I'm giving you an argument to show
1:52:59Jay DyerIt referred to another creature. Creature. That nominal It refers to another creature. That's what's in question.
1:53:04Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianPredication
1:53:05Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianis
1:53:05Jay Dyernot meaningless.
1:53:07Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianIt's not meaningless. Nominalist predication is not meaningless.
1:53:10Jay DyerIt's circular. That's the point. It's arbitrary because you're just using another created object to try to explain what is beyond the created. That's the whole point of the that's what I've been arguing this whole time. And that's why your position contradicts
1:53:22Jay Dyerbecause on the one hand, the uncreated foot is nothing like the human created foot. But you say, oh, but it actually kind of is, but we don't know the meaning of that. So it's No. We do know the meaning. We
1:53:34Jake the Muslim Metaphysiciando know the meaning. Again, you're misrepresenting.
1:53:36Jay DyerEven to me, it says both things. Miss Even to me, it says both things that we don't he says that it's like it. We don't know the meaning.
1:53:43Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianHe doesn't say that.
1:53:44Jay DyerYes. He does.
1:53:44Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianDoesn't say we don't know the meaning.
1:53:46Jay DyerYes. He does.
1:53:47Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianWhere? Give the give the evidence.
1:53:49Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianThat we don't know the meaning of what?
1:53:51Jay DyerRetortable points. No. The One minute. The god foot. You know what I mean?
1:53:56Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianShow that he says we don't know the meaning.
1:54:00Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianWhere does he say we don't know the meaning?
1:54:02Jay DyerOkay. What he says is that what it means is that it exists in a manner befitting Allah. That tells us nothing.
1:54:08Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianOh, it does? So when your Orthodox Church says the exact same thing, what does that mean?
1:54:13Jay DyerWe don't say that. We don't
1:54:14Jake the Muslim Metaphysiciansay that.
1:54:15Jay DyerGod doesn't have an uncreative foot. I mean
1:54:17Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianHe doesn't say in a God be your Orthodox Church doesn't talk about a God befitting manner?
1:54:24Jay DyerNot a God befitting foot.
1:54:25Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianDoes it talk about a God
1:54:27Jay Dyeris a God befitting foot jay
1:54:28Jake the Muslim Metaphysiciantalk about a guy?
1:54:29Jay DyerIt's I'm asking you does it talk? Yeah, what is it good? I'm asking you. What is it God befitting foot?
1:54:36Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianThe same way that it's described in the text
1:54:39Jay DyerThat so no answer.
1:54:40Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianNo. Which is the same
1:54:41Jay Dyerway that is a circle.
1:54:42Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianSame way that it's described in this And that was described. So revelation doesn't tell us anything when we read it
1:54:48Jay Dyeras a I'm asking of you.
1:54:50Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianOf course. Revelation means things when we read
1:54:53Jay Dyerthe words. Is what?
1:54:54Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianWhich is what?
1:54:55Jay DyerThat's not telling me nothing.
1:54:56Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianGod describes.
1:54:57Jay DyerYou're telling me nothing.
1:54:58Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianGod describes
1:54:59Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianwhat his hands and feet actually do
1:55:02Jay Dyerwhen And says what?
1:55:03Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianSo you have no idea. You haven't even read our No.
1:55:06Jay DyerI want you to tell me. You said it's creating, Adam, but that's another created thing.
1:55:10James KunzGive you a chance to answer
1:55:12Jay DyerAdam is not a created thing.
1:55:13James KunzI'll give you a chance
1:55:14Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianto answer Jake. His
1:55:17Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianhis hands are not created,
1:55:19Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianneither is his foot.
1:55:20Jay DyerWhat is an uncreated hand?
1:55:21Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianHe he said he's gonna give me a chance to What is an uncreated hand?
1:55:24James KunzHey, I've a Your
1:55:25Jake the Muslim Metaphysiciantime
1:55:26Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianis up. Let me respond
1:55:27Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianand then you we can move on. An uncreated hand in like manner and uncreated essence
1:55:34Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianhas nothing in common. You have not shown that simply using the same word
1:55:40Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianentails
1:55:41Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianthat there is similarity,
1:55:43Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianand I've explained what an uncreated hand is. It is that by which Allah can
1:55:48Jake the Muslim Metaphysiciangrasp things, that he can create Adam with his own two hands.
1:55:52Jay DyerThat's a creative thing.
1:55:54Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianNo. It's not. Creatures.
1:55:55Jay DyerThose are creatures. Hands are creatures.
1:55:57Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianAnd so is God's knowledge. God's knowledge is created.
1:55:59Jay DyerGod's knowledge is a creature?
1:56:00Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianYeah. That's what you believe. Right? God's knowledge is done.
1:56:03James KunzRight? Closing
1:56:04Jay DyerWhat's about your position?
1:56:05James KunzWe have seven minute closings.
1:56:07Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI don't even understand basic arguments.
1:56:09James KunzSeven minute closings. So what I
1:56:12Jay DyerBruise so mad, dude. He said that.
1:56:14James KunzNo. Got the order. Boy. You got Alright, gentlemen. We gotta we've this one, I earlier, I got the order wrong. So it's actually that the closings will be just as you expected. Namely, Jake will go first,
1:56:27James Kunzthen Jay
1:56:28James Kunzwill go for his closing, and then we'll go into the q and a. So we have seven minutes. The clock is set for you, Jake. The floor is all yours for your seven minute closing statement.
1:56:39Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianOkay. One second.
1:56:48Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianOkay. Ready. Here we go. Alright.
1:56:54Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianWell,
1:56:55Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianit's been an interesting debate. I can say that. But, Jay, as we've seen, he doesn't understand basic ethere aqidah.
1:57:03Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianHe couldn't answer whether clearly Ibn Taymiyyah is an occasionalist.
1:57:07Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI've got a book over here which I can I can I don't mind actually sending it to Jay for free where he completely refutes occasionalism?
1:57:14Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianWe do believe in secondary causation, Jay, so I guess you don't know that. He didn't know the basic differences
1:57:19Jay DyerI didn't say that he was occasional.
1:57:21Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianYou're not
1:57:21Jay Dyerallowed to speak him like You're lying. I didn't
1:57:23James Kunzsay that. Wanna just to I'll give you a chance to in your closing as well to rebut Jake, but I do wanna just for these closing statements, I wanna keep it
1:57:31Jay DyerYeah.
1:57:31Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI know it's hard, Jay. You're getting refuted. But I
1:57:33Jay DyerI didn't
1:57:34Jake the Muslim Metaphysiciansay it. Just chill out.
1:57:36Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianAlright. We're ready, James, to restart?
1:57:39James KunzLet's see. I'll give you six minutes and twenty seconds left.
1:57:43Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianOkay. Good. Here we go.
1:57:45Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianSo Jay can't keep quiet because he knows that he's being made a fool and he did it to himself. He doesn't know the basic difference between Tawheed al Nana and Tawheed al Kefia.
1:57:55Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianTawheed is basic. And he says, oh, well, your god is just a god of the Arabs. No. But if you read our literature
1:58:02Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianin the same way that I know the difference between Usia,
1:58:05Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianwhich is essence,
1:58:07Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianand I understand the term homoousian,
1:58:09Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI don't speak Greek. I don't speak Latin,
1:58:12Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianbut I understand these terms because I've read several dozen books on the subject to be acquainted with the terms. But you haven't, and that's why you look like an ignorant buffoon because you don't know the basic difference and that's why you're mocking right now because it's hard on you. Everybody can see how this debate went for you, Jay. It looked really pathetic.
1:58:31Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianNow
1:58:32Jake the Muslim Metaphysiciangoing back to the point, he didn't understand that we believe in secondary causation, that Ibn Taymiyyah wasn't occasionalist.
1:58:39Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianYeah. He didn't give a clear option. He said, oh, he's contradictory. He doesn't understand.
1:58:43Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianAnd, also, he doesn't, as I said, understand the diff basic difference between and
1:58:48Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianwhich
1:58:49Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianis very basic.
1:58:50Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianOkay? There are many things. He didn't even know what the fitra was, which is very basic to our epistemology.
1:58:57Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianHow are you gonna critique our epistemology
1:58:59Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianand you don't even know what the fitra is? It's a complete joke. Now in terms of my arguments, he didn't respond really to any of them. On my first argument, the LPT,
1:59:10Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianthe father is god, the son is god, and the holy spirit's god, and they're not each other. They're distinct from each other the same way that we count, Jay. Let me help you out. One plus one plus one does not equal one, sir. It equals three. So the Muslim meme has been vindicated. Thank you very much, Jay. And his only response is, oh, we count different things in different ways. And I asked you for an objective criteria
1:59:35Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianof why we count attributes or energies
1:59:38Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianand persons by identity,
1:59:40Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianand we count gods by division other than an ad hoc unprincipled
1:59:45Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianassertion.
1:59:46Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianAnd you had no answer to that whatsoever,
1:59:49Jake the Muslim Metaphysiciansir. You'd have no answer. Yeah. Keep shaking your head. And then you claimed, oh, you claimed Jake actually counts by division. And then when I questioned you about how I count by division in the cross examination section,
2:00:03Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianyou flopped so hard. I don't count by division. We count the attributes
2:00:08Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianby identity,
2:00:09Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianBy the fact even though they're inseparable
2:00:12Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianand not divided,
2:00:14Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianthey still count as more than one. That means we're counting them by identity,
2:00:19Jake the Muslim Metaphysiciannot by division.
2:00:21Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianSo you haven't shown that I've counted by division within God whatsoever.
2:00:25Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianThe only thing you have is an unprincipled way of avoiding
2:00:30Jake the Muslim Metaphysiciansaying that there are three gods because you just don't wanna admit that you're a polytheist, which everybody knows that you are, including the Roman orthodox.
2:00:38Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianThe sorry. Roman Catholics. Now here we go to Jay's point here where he's refuted by the Roman Catholics.
2:00:46Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianRight?
2:00:47Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianHere we go. Branson
2:00:49Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianyeah. Again,
2:00:50Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianrefuted him on the claim that Branson himself says that Gregory of Nicaea believes that the essence of god, the divine essence is universal.
2:00:58Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianJay, in his one of his videos, he says, we apply that same idea to the trinity, which is that each of the hypotheses
2:01:05Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianinstantiates
2:01:06Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianthe divine nature.
2:01:07Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianSo they are instantiations
2:01:09Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianof the divine nature. Now, Jay, don't get out don't get out of wrestled out of your seat now. I know they're not merely instantiations,
2:01:16Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianbut they do instantiate the divine essence. Nevertheless, Timothy Paul, Catholic philosopher, says about the instantiation view. There are there are at least two problems with Jay Dyer's Eastern Orthodox instantiation view. This is the critique from the Catholics who believe they're polytheists,
2:01:32Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianthat the instantiation view
2:01:34Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianhas to face an answer to why the person nature question both having to do with the conciliar claim that there is only one god. First, consider a problem often raised against social trinitarianism,
2:01:46Jake the Muslim Metaphysiciana type of instantiation view that builds into the unity of god much more than mere instantiation.
2:01:53Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianThe problem goes as follows. The instantiation view gives up monotheism.
2:01:58Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianWhen we count human people, Jay, just like I asked you how many people are on the screen, which your own church father would have said one, which is ridiculous,
2:02:05Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianwe count by individual instances of humanity.
2:02:09Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianWhen my daughters,
2:02:10Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianMary, Beatrice, Edith, Agnes, each instantiate the universal humanity
2:02:15Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianand each has a proper characteristic such that we don't confuse them, what we have there are four humans,
2:02:21Jake the Muslim Metaphysiciannot a single human like Gregory of Nicaea says. So likewise, on the instantiation
2:02:27Jake the Muslim Metaphysiciancount, we ought to invert the line from the Athanasius creed saying, instead, that there is not one god but three gods.
2:02:35Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianThink about it another way. Christians wanted to safeguard the monotheism that they inherited from Judaism. Whether they succeeded is a separate question. Now suppose a Jewish man were accused of polytheism. Here's a defense he could give on this instantiation
2:02:49Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianview of the divine nature. He could say, yes, it is true. I worship the God of Israel,
2:02:55Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianBaal
2:02:56Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianof the Canaanites,
2:02:57Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianDagon of the Philistines,
2:02:58Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianand countless others. But fear not, I only countenance a single universal divinity which each of my many gods instantiates.
2:03:07Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianAs such, I'm still a monotheist.
2:03:10Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI don't think Moses would be impressed, Jay. This is what Timothy Paul is saying that you're clearly just a polytheist.
2:03:17Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianNow what
2:03:19Jake the Muslim Metaphysiciandoes Jay say about the Catholic view? He rightly points out that it reduces to modalism, and I agree. That's why the Catholic view is modalism. The Eastern Orthodox view is polytheism.
2:03:31Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianThey say that the truth is in between, but they're never able to explain
2:03:35Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianthat properly.
2:03:36Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianJay says I equivocated on power, but he doesn't believe that the father, son, and holy spirit have the same abilities. He couldn't give an even answer if the father has the ability or power to become incarnate because he knew that would result in them not having the same powers in which they wouldn't be the same god. Thomas Aquinas criticizes that view in the Summa in part three. And
2:03:56Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianlast but not least, Jay was not able to actually deal with the Athari Aqidah, and it's because he hasn't even read our texts.
2:04:05Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianBefore the debate, he needed to delay it. So people were wondering what the delay was. It was because of him. He wasn't able to read an English translation of an unreleased book, and that's why he doesn't understand our position. Thank you very much.
2:04:18James KunzThat will kick it over to Jay for his ten minute closing as well. Wanna get I wanna say folks, if you haven't yet, check out the poll in the live chat. You can vote on where you stand on this question tonight.
2:04:30James KunzAlready has 2,754
2:04:32James Kunzvotes. So log in right now in the live chat. You can put your vote in the poll. With that, Jay, the floor is all yours.
2:04:40Jay DyerI hope Jake's okay because the whole debate, he's basically been sparking and
2:04:45Jay Dyersquirming like something's wrong over there. He's got Parkinson's or what's going on, but I hope he's okay. I didn't mean to hurt him so bad or hurt his feelings. Love you, Jake, man.
2:04:53Jay DyerYeah. I think that first of all, as I pointed out, when he asked me about Ibn Tamiya, I was clearly trying to remember exactly what his position was from the book,
2:05:02Jay Dyerand I specifically said that he allows for created causation.
2:05:06Jay DyerJake then tried to make me sound like I was saying that he was an occasionalist. I never said that. So that was a complete dishonest lie.
2:05:13Jay DyerI said that he believes that there's real causation in the world, but he also thinks that God can intervene and do miracles. So that was a straight up lie.
2:05:21Jay DyerJust looking for anything grasping at straws because he performed so badly. It's probably why he had to mute or take off his camera. I don't know if he's running the bathroom to take a comfort break or or what's going on. But, yeah, I think if we review this debate, we'll notice that the central issues that were in question,
2:05:38Jay Dyertwo ways of accounting for
2:05:41Jay Dyerunity and multiplicity, as I pointed out in my opening statement,
2:05:45Jay Dyernot a question of who's the true monotheist versus the polytheist, the way that Jake wanted to characterize the debate. Because if you go watch, for example, Jake's debate with doctor Beau Branson or his debate with doctor Khalil,
2:05:57Jay Dyeryou'll notice that Jake consistently had no real way to answer for the actual questions of how we account for multiplicity
2:06:05Jay Dyerand unity
2:06:07Jay Dyerin his conception of the attributes and the essence. I specifically gave numerous arguments in the opening statement
2:06:13Jay Dyerthat Jake never got anywhere near touching. He says, didn't make any arguments. I did. I made countless arguments throughout that opening statement.
2:06:21Jay DyerI specifically pointed out that not that Jake only counts in one way.
2:06:27Jay DyerI said that when he uses the terminology of inseparability,
2:06:30Jay Dyerthat he's using the idea of counting by division.
2:06:34Jay DyerAnd it's simply saying that if you say, for example, that the attributes are undivided or that the essence is one and undivided,
2:06:43Jay Dyerthat's also counting by division.
2:06:45Jay DyerThat's how the ancient and medieval world typically thought unless they were dealing with objects of first order imposition or objects of second order imposition.
2:06:54Jay DyerAgain, I addressed those disputes
2:06:56Jay Dyerwhen I covered that topic. So most of the stuff that Jake has pointed to,
2:07:02Jay DyerI've I did address. He just then came on and said, he never addressed nothing I said.
2:07:07Jay DyerNo. I did address everything he said. Just most of what I addressed, you just weren't familiar with or you didn't know what these topics were. Now, again, in the topic of the universal,
2:07:17Jay Dyerfor us, as universals get discussed amongst the Cappadocians and then post Chalcedon,
2:07:23Jay Dyerit becomes more and more specified and more and more clarified. So if you just ask me something like, is god's essence universal,
2:07:28Jay DyerIt really depends on what time frame we're talking about. But post Cappadocians,
2:07:34Jay Dyerpost Chalcedon,
2:07:35Jay Dyerand so forth, we don't usually see the idea of a universal itself in the platonic sense being attributed to the divine essence.
2:07:43Jay DyerIt's simply said to be something common, so we can say that, yeah, the divine essence is common, but universals take on a specific category of a created thing, especially in Saint Maximus. Maximus, for example, argues that universals can perish, and this is in the Tollefsen
2:07:58Jay Dyerdissertation.
2:08:00Jay DyerWell, obviously, universals aren't the divine essence
2:08:02Jay Dyerbecause the divine essence can't perish.
2:08:05Jay DyerAnd if universals can perish, then universals are created things. Now universals are patterned on things in the divine mind. We would call those the divine ideas, but that's a different topic.
2:08:15Jay DyerBut suffice to say, it's again another kind of equivocation
2:08:18Jay Dyerwith how the Cappadocians use the term common or universal versus the way that it's used by the time of Saint John Damascus in a more precise way about created realities.
2:08:27Jay DyerSo the universals dispute, however, is very important for this debate because as we saw, Jake's denial of universals results in a lot of problems
2:08:35Jay Dyerfor accounting for things like meaning and identity over time. That's why I kept stressing how would Jake understand various texts of the Quran. And you'll notice when we got into the the nitty gritty of the epistemology,
2:08:47Jay DyerJake completely collapsed. Jake went in circles. He was lost. He didn't know what was going on, where he was even at.
2:08:54Jay DyerHe thought that you could say that, well, some things are self evident, which you noticed when I first asked him, he didn't wanna say it was self evident.
2:09:01Jay DyerAbout a minute or two later, yeah, these are self evident truths.
2:09:05Jay DyerBut then he's and when I asked him about the criterion problem, which is how do we know the self evident versus the non self evident, he began appeal to a self rent referential thing because we know because of the way that we go about doing it. Yeah. But that doesn't justify the claim. And he knows that it doesn't, and that's why he went deeper into deflecting over into transcendental argumentation and justification. And he didn't know what a metatological
2:09:26Jay Dyerargument was, even though he admits that that FDA
2:09:30Jay Dyerwas making a metatological argumentation
2:09:33Jay Dyerin the paper. The paper's just arguing that the transcendental argument isn't justified in the exact same way that first order types of beliefs are justified.
2:09:42Jay DyerSo and this is just to say that different things are argued for in different ways. If you watch my Matt Dillon debate,
2:09:48Jay Dyerthis becomes a a a very central point of dispute between us where Matt thinks that everything is argued for in one way.
2:09:55Jay DyerLikewise,
2:09:56Jay Dyerthat very low tier quality of debate that Jake shares with Matt Dillon Monkey, they both just seem to think that words mean one thing.
2:10:04Jay DyerAll arguments are argued in the same way. Justification happens in one way. Different types of things are proven and argued for in different ways.
2:10:13Jay DyerDifferent types of things are counted in different ways. So I made this very clear.
2:10:18Jay DyerAgain, Jake didn't get any of that, and everything had to be smooshed down and reduced into one simple, one dimensional ways of understanding everything throughout this debate.
2:10:27Jay DyerSo I think that if if people paid attention, especially when we got to the notion of hand, foot,
2:10:33Jay Dyerthe the bodily properties that are ascribed to Allah in his school, in his tradition,
2:10:37Jay DyerJake couldn't tell us what
2:10:39Jay Dyeran uncreated foot is that doesn't bear similarity to foot except that it's similar in the case of functionality
2:10:47Jay Dyerof creating.
2:10:48Jay DyerK? But the creating that you talked about or the piece of paper that you referred to or this or that, those are other created things. And so the created things that you keep appealing to never match up or touch upon the uncreated thing,
2:11:02Jay Dyerwhich the Quran says is unlike. Right? Allah is absolutely unlike creatures. What's that?
2:11:08James KunzFifty seconds.
2:11:10Jay DyerSo the argument is not that Jake believes or Ibn Tamiya believes that there's no way to have positive predication.
2:11:17Jay DyerThe argument is that they contradict,
2:11:20Jay Dyerand Suleiman points out numerous places where actually he contradicts.
2:11:25Jay DyerSo
2:11:26Jay DyerJake says, oh, he didn't read it. I was just waiting for a good book on this topic to have a good debate. So Jake's trying to make it like I was, you know, avoiding something or whatever. No. No. No. I just wanted to have a good debate, and I went to the trouble of reading this 400 page book for you to have a good discussion and a good debate.
2:11:45Jay DyerAnd,
2:11:46Jay Dyeragain,
2:11:47Jay Dyerpage three thirty one, notes that
2:11:51Jay Dyerhe absolutely
2:11:52Jay Dyercontradicts himself on this point.
2:11:55Jay DyerHe also contradicts on this notion of what the divine perfections are. Right? And so when we're told that
2:12:01Jay Dyerwe are supposed to know what a hand is,
2:12:04Jay DyerEvery Jew or Christian in the seventh or eighth century would know what a hand is by empirically based hands.
2:12:09James KunzTime.
2:12:12James KunzWith that, we're gonna go into the q and a. Wanna say, folks,
2:12:16James Kunzwe're gonna try to move through this as fast as humanly possible.
2:12:20James KunzCouple of quick things. One is the goal is what we have written down here is thirty minutes,
2:12:26James Kunzas well as we will not read
2:12:28James Kunzsuper chats that are just attacks on people. We do want actual sincere questions.
2:12:34James KunzAlso,
2:12:36James Kunzas we had mentioned earlier in the debate and as you can probably see at the bottom right of your screen, we're only gonna read super chats that are $5 or more. We're gonna try to get the standard questions, namely when you just tag me in the chat with a question,
2:12:46James Kunzbut I just can't make any promises because we do we agreed to a thirty minute q and a. I wanna go through this as fast as humanly possible. Thanks for your patience, and here we go. First up, thanks very much. John Michael b says,
2:12:58James KunzJake says that we are polytheists.
2:13:00James KunzDoes he know he follows
2:13:02James Kunza pagan god named law?
2:13:07James KunzGive me a chance to respond to that, Jake. I have a feeling you disagree. Yeah.
2:13:12Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI don't know where he's getting this pagan
2:13:14Jake the Muslim Metaphysiciangod concept of of law. In fact,
2:13:18Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianeven orthodox Christians, I think, Jay, maybe this is something that we could agree on, orthodox Christians that are actually Arabs
2:13:26Jake the Muslim Metaphysiciancall call god Allah.
2:13:29Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianSo
2:13:30Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianif if you think that that's the case, then Jay is just as much of a pagan
2:13:35Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianand orthodox are for using the term Allah.
2:13:38Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianSo it's completely ridiculous.
2:13:41James KunzQuestion for Jake. They say, how does Allah who is above the seven heavens descend to the lowest heaven?
2:13:48James KunzDoes he have temporal space?
2:13:51Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI don't know what temporal
2:13:53Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianspace means because
2:13:56Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianthat time and space are two different things at least in my understanding
2:14:01Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianunless you take a
2:14:03Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianmodern physical understanding where time and space are the same thing. So I don't even really understand the question but when you ask how
2:14:10Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianthat shows that the questioner doesn't understand
2:14:13Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianbecause we don't say that we know the how or the kafia.
2:14:17Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianWe don't know the kafia
2:14:19Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianof the attribute.
2:14:20Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianSo and it's not only for descent or nazul. It's the same for yed or puwa or any of the attributes.
2:14:27Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianWe don't talk about the howness of the attribute.
2:14:31James KunzLast disclaimer, folks. We have so many questions. Please don't submit any more questions. We're gonna try to move fast. Joshua de King says, believe whatever you want. Allah has eternal attributes that require recipient therefore he's dependent upon other than himself to express himself.
2:14:47Jay DyerWho's that for?
2:14:48Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianYeah. That's just a statement but I mean, okay. We don't believe that. We don't believe that Allah
2:14:55Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianhow is he if he's dependent upon his attributes
2:14:58Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianlet's say for the sake of argument he's dependent upon his attributes,
2:15:01Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianhow is he dependent upon somebody else?
2:15:04Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianThey're his attributes. So, I mean, that just makes no sense. It's the same it would be a similar concept in orthodoxy to say,
2:15:11Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianGod has attributes so he's dependent upon somebody else. Well, the attributes are his. It's just a such a low level critique.
2:15:19James KunzThis one from Golcie Tabard says, Allah and Yahweh are both the that's they're just crawling.
2:15:26James KunzThis one coming in from do appreciate your question.
2:15:31James KunzThis one is from oh, sorry. My screen's reloading on me.
2:15:36James KunzYashbih King says, why does the Quran say it's clear, detailed, and explains everything, yet Muslims differ on Allah, and the Quran doesn't
2:15:44James Kunzdetail
2:15:45James Kunzthe slash.
2:15:47James KunzLet me know if I pronounced it
2:15:48Jay Dyerwrong. Yeah.
2:15:49Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianYeah. No. No. It's okay. So he's saying why does the Quran say it's a detailed explanation of all things? That's in chapter 12 verse one eleven when it says, but
2:16:00Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianif you see this phrase used, it's obviously used in a hyperbolic manner because it's used in the same sense when it talks about what was revealed to Moses.
2:16:10Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianHe was also revealed a detailed explanation of all things and yet we believe the Quran came afterwards
2:16:17Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianand revealed things that were not given to Moses. So So it's just a misunderstanding of the phrase.
2:16:22James KunzThis one coming in from doctor Chillen says, hey, Jake. Two part question. Is LGBT allowed in Islam? Because in Sanah
2:16:30James KunzSanahnavi,
2:16:32James KunzDawood five two two four, Muhammad was kissing,
2:16:35James Kunzlet's see, they say allegedly Mohammed was kissing another man on the chest. They say, should we stone him?
2:16:44Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI would have to look at the hadith. I don't know what he's referring to. But LGBTQ,
2:16:49Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI don't I mean, I don't wanna get the stream banned or anything, but, no, we believe it's a we believe it's a sin,
2:16:55Jake the Muslim Metaphysiciansimilar
2:16:56Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianto orthodox. So we're actually in agreement on that perspective that LGBTQ
2:17:01Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianis a sin.
2:17:02James KunzThis one from Phamo says, Jay, your entire open was a failed attempt at trying to challenge Tawheed,
2:17:10James Kunzyet once
2:17:11James Kunznot once did you attempt to prove the blatant paradox known as the trinity.
2:17:18Jay DyerWell, again, in my last statement, I addressed the chief argument that
2:17:23Jay DyerJake relies on the LPT, and I just simply pointed out that there's two different ways that counting happens
2:17:30Jay Dyerfor different things. Different things are counted in different ways, and that's why,
2:17:35Jay Dyeryou know, if you want a fuller presentation of explaining and arguing the Trinitarian doctrine itself,
2:17:41Jay Dyeryou know, I gave a lot of those passages in the beginning part of the Daniel debate. I was just trying to squeeze as much in as possible. But I would also add that
2:17:50Jay DyerI would say that if Jake, you know, as he pointed out, wants to just count by identity,
2:17:55Jay Dyerif he thinks God is necessary and he counts by identity and if we follow the rules of Tamiya that each of the
2:18:01Jay Dyerwhat's true of one of the attributes is also true of the essence and so forth,
2:18:05Jay Dyerthen he's got multiple necessary beings
2:18:08Jay Dyerif he's got multiple attributes.
2:18:11James KunzYou got it. This one coming in from do appreciate it. Even Lord says, Jay, are Mormons basically Muslims?
2:18:18James KunzAnd Jake, a Muslim well, we'll first, we'll give you a chance to respond. Jay, are Mormons basically Muslims?
2:18:25Jay DyerAnd there's some interesting parallels between
2:18:28Jay Dyerthe supposed prophet status of Mohammed and the supposed prophet status of,
2:18:34Jay Dyeryou know, Joseph Smith in terms of, you know, polygamy or
2:18:38Jay Dyerdirect new revelations that sort of contradict previous revelations, see my argument with Daniel.
2:18:45Jay DyerBut I also would argue that,
2:18:47Jay Dyeryou know, Islam is mainly focused on trying to explain through thousands of pages of debates what Allah's unity and singleness actually is, whereas Mormons are actually tritheists and believe in three
2:18:59Jay Dyerdistinct discrete gods.
2:19:01James KunzYou got it.
2:19:02Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianBelieve in a lot more than three gods. But yeah.
2:19:04James KunzThey say for Jake,
2:19:06James Kunzas a Muslim, what are your thoughts of Mormons compared to other Christians and Protestant groups?
2:19:12Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianYeah. Mormons
2:19:14Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI agree with Jay's part about Mormonism.
2:19:17Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI don't think it's anything similar to Islam.
2:19:20Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianBut Mormons are actually some of the biggest polytheists in the world because they believe father, son, and holy spirit. At least I say they're a bit more honest than j because they admit their three gods. But then they go much further than that by saying that man can become god one day and not in the sense that j talks about with theosis. They go much further than that because they believe father, son, and holy spirit used to not be gods and they elevated to that station of god. So they're actually one of the biggest polytheists in the world as a religion.
2:19:50James KunzYou got it. This one from Beau Branson says, Jake quotes me saying Trinitarianism
2:19:56James Kunzquote unquote seems
2:19:59James Kunzlike saying one plus one plus one equals one,
2:20:02James Kunznot that it is.
2:20:05James KunzHe omits that I next put Gregory of NAACP's response in standard predicate logic giving a formal consistency proof.
2:20:15Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianYep. So to be clear, I wouldn't be so stupid to claim
2:20:20Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianthat Beau Branson actually explicitly
2:20:22Jake the Muslim Metaphysiciansays
2:20:23Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianthat the Trinity is like one plus one plus one equals one. That's not the point. The point is that the original problem,
2:20:31Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI was using the quote to explain
2:20:34Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianhow he understands what the LPT is.
2:20:37Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianAnd we can agree, I think Jay and I, if we agree about anything,
2:20:42Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianthe difference in in terms of why I say the Trinity results in three gods is about counting. So that's the only point of the quote. It's not to say that Branson
2:20:52Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianbelieves that the LPT is successful or he believes in three gods. That would be ridiculous. It's just to show that he's explaining what the problem is supposed to be. And then of course in his dissertation he attempts to, you know, respond to the problem.
2:21:07James KunzThis one coming in from even lord says j we got that one. X x w l z x x says question for Jake. Do you believe the eyes are
2:21:15James Kunzalright. That's weird. This Beau Branzman says, if there should turn out to be any problem with the doctrine of the Trinity at all, it will not be one of mere logical inconsistency
2:21:27James Kunzin saying that, quote, these three are one unquote.
2:21:33Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI mean that's just a claim but I've given an argument for the LPT
2:21:37Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianand the same argument
2:21:39Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianthat I gave
2:21:40Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianto Branson is the same one I gave to Jay and Branson even in his new book cause I've spoke to other contributors to the new book which has been not been published yet, he never responds to my critique of
2:21:53Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianthe unprincipled
2:21:54Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianad hoc manner in which they count persons and attributes or energies by identity, but they count gods by division. He has no explanation for that.
2:22:03Jay DyerWell, of course, that was explained multiple times tonight. It's explained by doctor Branson in many places,
2:22:10Jay Dyerand I addressed it by first and second order imposition argumentation as well as showing that multiple
2:22:15Jay Dyertheologians,
2:22:16Jay Dyereven al Ghazali count by division.
2:22:19Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI don't mind Jay responding, but if he's gonna respond,
2:22:22Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianthen I'd like to respond to other questions. I'll give I can give
2:22:25James Kunzyou the last word, Jay.
2:22:25Jay DyerWell, I mean,
2:22:26Jay DyerJake said, like No.
2:22:27Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianNo. No. I'm not saying I'm not saying to respond now to what he said. I'm just saying Jay has answered other questions that I would have wanted to respond to, but I was quiet.
2:22:36Jay DyerSo So well, let me ask you a question about that in terms of the moderator. Like, so does the other person get to respond to like, if a question goes to Jake, does it just to Jake, or how is this work? Gonna
2:22:46Jake the Muslim Metaphysiciandon't know. That's why I'm trying to
2:22:47Jay DyerI'm asking the moderator. What what do
2:22:48James Kunzwanna Normally, normally, this is something that I I'm happy to have your guys' creative input on.
2:22:54James KunzTonight, I would I think it's best just because we wanna get through as many questions as possible.
2:22:58Jay DyerWe only
2:22:59James Kunzhave thirty minutes for the q and a.
2:23:00Jay DyerThis one.
2:23:01James KunzThis one from mihiir
2:23:02James Kunz84 says, the messiah,
2:23:04James Kunzin parentheses, whose name wasn't Jesus,
2:23:07James Kunzdidn't know the hour. When did the holy spirit relinquish power to not have the same knowledge as the father?
2:23:15James KunzEmphasis on father. I think that's for you, Jay.
2:23:18Jay DyerIs that to me? Yeah. If you read the Bezle letter two thirty
2:23:22Jay Dyerfive and six, I think
2:23:24Jay Dyertwo thirty four, five, and six. Third third four is the energies, then five and six addresses this topic where it's just the use of
2:23:31Jay Dyerrhetorical exaggerative language, which Jesus does quite a bit. For example, he says there's none good but God.
2:23:37Jay DyerBut then we have other places where he says, of course, there's a you know, this person is the good man.
2:23:41Jay DyerYou know, the bible calls Jesus good, holy spirit good. So it's a rhetorical device to say that not even I know, right, or not even the son knows. It doesn't literally mean that he doesn't know because we're also told that Jesus knows all things.
2:23:56James KunzThis one from Sauer says, is the Trinity a necessary truth or contingent truth?
2:24:01James KunzIf the former, what is the contradiction
2:24:04James Kunzof rejecting it? If the contradiction isn't shown from denial,
2:24:08James Kunzit's a contingent truth, therefore, Trinity false.
2:24:13Jay DyerI'm assuming that's to me. Right?
2:24:15James KunzYep.
2:24:16Jay DyerYeah. I think that this
2:24:18Jay Dyeris if this is, like, the atheist TikTok people that ask this question, this is, again, kinda making the mistake of thinking that the argue the transcendental argument is a first order argument. It's a meta level argument, so that's not really relevant to how we are we argue tag.
2:24:33James KunzThis one from FCLA news says, alla I know I'm gonna say this wrong, so help me. Alla Akbar?
2:24:41Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianYeah.
2:24:41James KunzAm saying this right? Yeah. One from
2:24:45James Kunzl h. It says Jake the meta
2:24:49James Kunzgot that under this one.
2:24:51James KunzCentral Dawah says Jay Dyer saying, quote, Jake doesn't understand, unquote, is not an argument against Jake.
2:24:59James KunzMake an actual argument. I'll just give you a chance, Jay, to respond to that. Well,
2:25:04Jay DyerI mean, I might have used that phrase at a couple points in the debate, but I didn't rely only on saying Jake doesn't understand. I think I used that phrase two or three times, but I gave many arguments.
2:25:15James KunzYou got it.
2:25:16James KunzLet's see. This one from l h says, so there's one Allah with multiple body parts, I e, the hands are distinct from the shin.
2:25:24James KunzComplete partiality
2:25:25James Kunzof Allah they put in all caps.
2:25:28Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianNo. We don't believe that Allah's Yed is a body part. We don't believe that he has any body parts.
2:25:36Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianJay should know this, I'm not saying he's claiming that but from reading the text we don't believe that they're body parts so by people keep asserting this same falsehood
2:25:45Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianwhich Frege refutes
2:25:47Jake the Muslim Metaphysiciandirectly in the book
2:25:50Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianjust shows their own ignorance but they can do it as long as they like.
2:25:54James KunzSo coming in from Dalil says Jake, why do you worship 99 gods? I'll give you a chance to respond to that.
2:26:01Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI don't worship 99 gods because I don't say that the Sifat or the Sifa which is an attribute is a god
2:26:09Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianJust as Jay Dyer does not say that the energy of God's will or power or knowledge are gods. We don't call them gods. They're attributes of God.
2:26:21James KunzFamo says, Jay, if the sun wanted a tree to be yellow, the holy spirit wanted it to be orange, and at the same time, the father wanted it to be blue, what color would the tree be?
2:26:34Jay DyerYeah. We don't believe in that
2:26:36Jay Dyerwill and intentionality
2:26:38Jay Dyeraction are themselves
2:26:40Jay Dyerpersonal properties.
2:26:42Jay DyerSo the Trinity shares a common
2:26:44Jay Dyerwill, a common nature,
2:26:46Jay Dyerand common operations, and so there wouldn't be conflicting
2:26:49Jay Dyercontrary wills within God. That's the the
2:26:54Jay Dyertraits or properties of nature. And then when we talk about the mode in which that nature exists, it exists in the mode of three persons that have it. So it's both
2:27:02Jay Dyerparticularized
2:27:03Jay Dyerand it's common at the same time.
2:27:06James KunzSo I'm coming in from L two a. It says, did a natural theist really just try to hijack the anthropology
2:27:12James Kunzof the noose without an energy essence distinction?
2:27:17Jay DyerI think that's to me, and I would say that
2:27:21Jay DyerI mean, I I I understand, I guess, the apologetic
2:27:24Jay Dyeruse of trying to
2:27:26Jay Dyerutilize the notion of the news, but I don't think that translates into
2:27:30Jay Dyerthe Tawheed theology that he has in any coherent way.
2:27:35James KunzYou got it. Thank you very much for this question. Ecclesiastes says, Jake, why would you debate
2:27:39James Kunzlet's see. This
2:27:41James Kunzone from punk giver says, for Jake, if the sun cannot cause another person,
2:27:46James Kunzcan Allah's foot cause another Allah's
2:27:49James Kunzhand?
2:27:51Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI mean, it's just a ridiculous question. It's not what it's responding to.
2:27:55James KunzEcclesiastes
2:27:56James Kunzsays, great job, Jay Dyer.
2:27:59James KunzThey say, Jay or they say, Jake,
2:28:02James Kunzwould you debate David Wood?
2:28:07Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianDepends on the topic.
2:28:09James KunzThis one from
2:28:11James Kunzsays,
2:28:12James Kunzis the son
2:28:14James KunzSE?
2:28:16James KunzIf yes, how is that possible since he's begotten? And if no, how is he god?
2:28:21James KunzBecause it's greater to be a se
2:28:24James Kunzand god is maximally great.
2:28:26Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI think he means ase, but I'm sure Jake got that.
2:28:30Jay DyerAseity is,
2:28:31Jay Dyerfor us, a property that picks up the father.
2:28:34Jay DyerAnd so as you if you can go watch the debate between Jake and doctor Beau Branson, that whole debate settles this question because
2:28:42Jay Dyerwe could say, for example, that all fathers are human beings, but anything that's not a father is not a human. Right? This ends up in certain fallacies like denying the antecedent. And if you watch that debate, Jake's guilty of denying the antecedent.
2:28:55James KunzYou got it. This one from The Chelskian
2:28:58James Kunzsays, Jake, does your back hurt? Okay. That's weird. Abraham.
2:29:03James KunzSorry,
2:29:04James Kunzguys. I don't get to bet all these. They say
2:29:06Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianIt's actually a dozen. I'm sitting quite comfortably, but yeah.
2:29:09James KunzThey say, what is the point in Allah using the created term hand or foot etcetera,
2:29:17James Kunzyet is nothing like a created hand, foot, etcetera?
2:29:20Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianYeah. It's it's something very basic that I've explained numerous times and it seemed that Jay himself didn't get it. When you say that these are created things,
2:29:31Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianall of the predicates
2:29:32Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianthat we use in the English language or in Arabic when we say essence or we say power or we say hand, there is no difference in terms of predicating those things of God and predicating those things of creation. Our position is that there's a similarity in meaning and that there's no similarity in ontology.
2:29:53James KunzGot it. This one coming in from
2:29:56James Kunzn h nurse. Says, did Mohammed destroy all his idol with
2:30:00James Kunzcabals?
2:30:03Jay DyerI don't know what that's talking about.
2:30:05James KunzMe neither.
2:30:06James KunzZabiba's trajectory says, if I text you the way
2:30:10James Kunzlet's see.
2:30:12James KunzThat's weird. M j says, can j give an example of anything else that is counted differently as in the case of Trinity? We have three persons,
2:30:21James Kunzone nature, but yet one god.
2:30:26Jay DyerIs I don't understand the question. Is is there something that we are there things that we count in different ways,
2:30:32Jay Dyeror can I give examples the way that we count god in different ways? Because
2:30:37Jay Dyerwhat I argue was that if you look at medieval philosophy, there's first order imposition, second order imposition. First order imposition is counting things that are mundane, like cows and dogs.
2:30:47Jay DyerAnd then second order imposition is counting abstract things like laws of logic or sets.
2:30:52Jay DyerAnd so, for example,
2:30:54Jay Dyerconcrete things we would count by division and abstract things we would count by identity. So even in the middle ages, people counted in different ways. So it's odd to me that the whole argument tonight was premised on, we only count in one way, and that's counting by identity, which is why I said that if Jake counts by identity, then he has missed many necessary beings in his
2:31:15Jay Dyeraccount of the attributes.
2:31:18James KunzGot it. This one from The Chelskian says, when Allah comes down the third part of the night to answer prayers,
2:31:24James Kunzthat means that either Allah is like a yo yo because earth is a globe or that Muhammad thought that the earth was flat. I think this is for you, Jake.
2:31:35Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianNo that's incorrect because again they're going into the capeia or the Haunus of the descent which we don't and we don't actually make the claim that it is a movement necessarily
2:31:47Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianfrom one spatial location to another. In a similar manner that Jay Dyer believes that the attributes or energies descend upon creation
2:31:57Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianand he doesn't imagine that they're like ripping off a piece of and
2:32:02Jake the Muslim Metaphysiciansomehow coming into creation and landing on a human being. This is just a misunderstanding of our position.
2:32:10James KunzYou got it. There's one coming in from. Do appreciate it. Ahmed
2:32:14James Kunzsays, Jake. Palu Akbar, great job.
2:32:17James KunzMJ says,
2:32:19James Kunzcan Jay give an example of anything else that is counted differently as in the case of Trinity?
2:32:25James KunzWe have three persons, one nature, but yet one god.
2:32:28Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI think that's, like, the
2:32:29Jay Dyersame thing. Question, isn't it?
2:32:31Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianYeah. That's the same question.
2:32:32James KunzSorry about that. Sorry. Matt Belcher says, Lofton
2:32:36James Kunzdressed as a Muslim.
2:32:40James KunzI don't understand.
2:32:41James KunzThis one from funny. Who is your friend Michael? Okay. G p t point one two says
2:32:47James Kunzlet's see.
2:32:48Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI don't think Michael Lofton has any friends on this stream.
2:32:53James KunzThis one coming in from, do appreciate it, phymo says, Jay, answer without, they say,
2:32:58James Kunzhow can an unlimited infinite being, I e, God, be finite, I e, Jesus, and infinite, I e, God, at the same time?
2:33:08Jay DyerYeah. Well, this is what
2:33:10Jay Dyerwe talked about earlier with mode. And so the mode that Jesus entered into is a new mode of being,
2:33:17Jay Dyerwhich
2:33:18Jay Dyerthe book of Philippians describes as a willful non exercising of every one of his attributes.
2:33:24Jay DyerI think that Jake himself has argued in the past that God doesn't have to exercise every power and every
2:33:30Jay Dyerattribute of creating at all times. And so in the same way, we just simply say that the second person of the godhead
2:33:36Jay Dyerstepped into the mode of human nature while still having the divine nature. So he didn't lose his deity. He didn't undergo any change. He didn't become the opposite of himself.
2:33:47Jay DyerWe believe a both and rather than an either or.
2:33:51James KunzYou got it. This one coming in from just wanna remind you folks, we are looking for sincere questions, not statements that
2:33:57Jake the Muslim Metaphysiciandon't I know why these guys would pay a lot of money just to not get a question up there. It's just silly.
2:34:02James KunzI don't either. They're asking they're saying all sorts of things. But this one from
2:34:07James Kunzthis one, we got this one Manibe
2:34:09James KunzZia
2:34:11James Kunzsays, Jay, how do you worship Jesus without
2:34:14James Kunzworshiping his human nature? Don't you have to worship the created human nature when you worship the person of Jesus, which even Christians would consider idolatry?
2:34:26Jay DyerWell, this is addressed in Saint Cyril and the Council of Ephesus because it's an argument that Nestorius makes. And
2:34:33Jay Dyerinterestingly, the Islamic
2:34:35Jay Dyeror Oxford Handbook of Islam notes that there is, in fact, an Nestorian influence on Islam. So I don't fault him for making that mistake or or thinking that way, but the answer is just simply that. Searle says that we don't worship the creature
2:34:49Jay Dyerper creature. We direct all of our worship to the divine hypostasis,
2:34:53Jay Dyerand the we give him a holistic worship as the whole being because it's the body of the word. We don't worship the body of Christ or the human nature of Christ in any divided or separate way, but we worship the God man who is also incarnate.
2:35:10James KunzYou got it. This one, I'll read the appropriate part. They say, guys, it's Reid.
2:35:15James KunzGo join
2:35:17James Kunzg g slash
2:35:18James Kunzsuni.
2:35:20James KunzBy the way, I'm six foot seven. Okay.
2:35:22Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI have no idea what that means.
2:35:24James KunzI don't know. Says
2:35:27James Kunzdiscord.gg/suny
2:35:31James Kunzsays join the debate review. So if yeah. We we're happy to share about debate reviews. Folks, if you wanna go check that out, go have a conversation there.
2:35:39James KunzSays
2:35:42James Kunzthey say
2:35:44James Kunzokay. That's
2:35:47James KunzJohn Michael b says, Jake says we are polytheist.
2:35:51James KunzDoes he know we follow pagan? We got that one.
2:35:55James KunzSays, Jay, got
2:35:56James Kunzthat.
2:36:01James KunzSays, Jay,
2:36:02James Kunzhow have you actually read Athari position? Because when Jake asked you simple questions, yes or no, you have hard time answering yes or no.
2:36:14Jay DyerWell, for example, when he asked about whether I'll I'll just
2:36:18Jay DyerEmetamia
2:36:18Jay Dyerbelieves in occasionalism
2:36:20Jay Dyeror secondary causes. I was trying to remember the specific page in the 400 page book, which I did read, which
2:36:28Jay Dyersays he doesn't believe in occasionalism. So I was trying to accurately give the position.
2:36:33Jay DyerAnd so the answer is no. He doesn't believe in occasionalism. That's why I said specifically that he does allow for created causes.
2:36:40James KunzYou got it. This one from Giant Meteor says, Jake, if Alan's foot, I think you mean Olla's foot, and hands and other attributes,
2:36:48James Kunzquote, unquote, are not divisions of Allah,
2:36:51James Kunzbut each one is an identity
2:36:55James Kunzis
2:36:56James KunzI think now they're no. There wasn't a mistake. They're saying Alan on purpose, I think. They say if Alan's foot and hands and other attributes are not divisions of Alan,
2:37:05James Kunzbut each one is an identity, is each one the whole of Alan?
2:37:11Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianYeah. So, obviously, he's talking about Allah.
2:37:14Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI don't know if it's his Alan business, but we believe that the attributes all of the attributes and I repeat it again. We don't believe their body parts. So you can keep saying that we believe their body parts, but we don't believe that. This is explicit in all of our texts, so it's just misrepresentation.
2:37:30Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianBut they are we believe they're inseparable from the essence.
2:37:34Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianRight? Just as god's power and knowledge, they're all inseparable from the essence. It's not like God's knowledge starts floating around and comes and drifts down to earth and we don't believe that. Just a misunderstanding of the position.
2:37:48James KunzSays,
2:37:50James KunzJake, I love you. Remember Jesus, king and Joe, you're weird. And Derek, let's play Fortnite.
2:37:55James KunzSusup says, Justin, in his dialogue, makes it clear that the father can't incarnate.
2:38:02James KunzThis is clear subordinationism,
2:38:04James Kunzshowing he believed the father had a level of greatness in his personhood where he can't incarnate.
2:38:10James KunzDo you pray to a heretic?
2:38:14Jay DyerIs that a question to me, I guess?
2:38:15James KunzI think so.
2:38:16Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI don't pray to Justin.
2:38:18Jay DyerI know you don't pray to Justin.
2:38:21Jay DyerWell, it was it was it was phrased odd.
2:38:24Jay DyerYeah. So like I said, I mean, the
2:38:27Jay Dyerthe father the reason I said that we don't know is that I'm not aware of any statement where we're told
2:38:33Jay Dyerby divine revelation that the father
2:38:37Jay Dyercould not incarnate. Well, there are theophanic manifestations
2:38:41Jay Dyerwhere we have the father, you know, speaking to the son, but that's an energetic manifestation.
2:38:46Jay DyerBut like I said, Jesus says that, you know, no one sees the father at any time. So just like the divine essence is not perceived or seen, we don't think that the father is directly seen or perceived except, as Jesus says, in the son. So I don't see why that's
2:39:01Jay Dyera problem really for our theology. I mean, it's not
2:39:06Jay Dyerif if if Justin Marty makes a mistake like that, I would class it as the same type of mistake that Augustine makes.
2:39:12Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianCan I just ask Jay a quick question about that? Are there disputes in orthodoxy amongst the scholars
2:39:19Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianabout whether or not the father can become incarnate?
2:39:23Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianNo. It's a genuine question. I'm just asking.
2:39:26Jay DyerNo. I'm just was thinking about first divine revelation. I'm aware of what you're talking about in terms of what John Damascus talks about,
2:39:35Jay DyerBut I was just trying to think about what they might be referring to, which is, like, we have stories or or we have a case, like, where when Jesus is baptized, right, the father says, this is my beloved son. So somebody might think that that's
2:39:48Jay Dyerthe father entering into creation. But in our theology, we don't think the father enters into creation in that way other than it's an energetic manifestation that tells us about the father, but it's not the person of the father.
2:40:00Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianOkay.
2:40:01James KunzThis one from Jack Hogg says, Allah is completely unlike created things, but, yes, created things can predicate of Allah.
2:40:09Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianYeah. As I I've explained numerous times,
2:40:13Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianthis hinges on our
2:40:15Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianand Jay is right to point out. I'm happy that we that was actually part of the conversation,
2:40:20Jake the Muslim Metaphysiciannominalism.
2:40:22Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianBut they keep focusing on God. What these
2:40:25Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianpeople don't understand,
2:40:26Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianif they actually study nominalism,
2:40:29Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI believe that there is no shared reality
2:40:33Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianbetween
2:40:33Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianmy hand and Jay's hand. I don't believe that there is this thing called handness which is partially or fully identical in my hand and Jay's hand or my knowledge and Jay's knowledge. Everything that exists is a particular. So there's nothing unique about this when it comes to Allah or
2:40:53Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianhuman beings. So people understand that this is a debatable point, but it seems like they're not even aware of what nominalism even is.
2:41:02James KunzSo from Beyond Doubt Theology says, Jay, you have a problem with God having a foot, but if you can say God died, in parenthesis, counsel of episcopacy,
2:41:12James Kunzcan't you say that God or Jesus in particular had feet?
2:41:17Jay DyerYeah. So the internal critique was the first part about how when Jake gives an account or when even Tamiya gives an account of the semantic content that's supposed to be similar
2:41:29Jay Dyerin terms of quote meaning, that actually ends up telling us nothing about what that actually is. That was the force of my argument in terms of an internal critique of his position. But it is true that in our theology, you could say that by appropriation
2:41:42Jay Dyeror by what Searle calls the communication, you know, communicatio idiomatum or the communication of properties that
2:41:48Jay DyerGod the son died. It doesn't mean that he died in his divine nature or he underwent change or that the divinity became possible. It just simply means that the subject of the divine person, the son, experienced the severing of his human soul from his human body.
2:42:03James KunzYou got it. This one coming in from Jack Hug says
2:42:08James Kunzgot that one. Imagination says, Jake, you cannot have your own definitions and tell Jake to respond by using them. It's utterly ridiculous.
2:42:16James KunzAllah means
2:42:18James Kunzfake by my definition. Could you please prove Allah is real?
2:42:22Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI mean that's a strange question there or statement. But
2:42:27Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianobviously my theory of language and theory of meaning is entirely different. I believe that the meaning of a word or a sentence or a phrase is based on the intention of the speaker.
2:42:39Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianOkay? So when I ask about what power is or what it what this is and then I explain my intention of what the meaning is,
2:42:46Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianyou can answer according to that and you can say, oh, but I don't use the word that way and and give another answer. So there's no problem with that whatsoever.
2:42:54Jay DyerWell, except that you tried to say that I have to accept that meaning.
2:42:59James KunzI mean Got it. This one coming in from appreciate it.
2:43:04James KunzSays to Jake, Ibn
2:43:07James Kunzbrings
2:43:08James KunzSahi in his book that Mohammed sits with Allah where
2:43:12James KunzArsh
2:43:13James KunzHersch trembles.
2:43:15James KunzSince you pray to Allah,
2:43:17James Kunzhow are you not a polytheist?
2:43:20Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianSince I pray to Allah, how am I not a polytheist? I mean,
2:43:25Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianhow is that even connected to the first part of what he said? I have no idea.
2:43:30Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianSince Jay is making comments on the back end of my statements then I would make a comment on the back end of his questions and just as the
2:43:39Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianquestioner was asking before
2:43:40Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianabout predications and the communication of idioms or attributes
2:43:45Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianlikewise Jay can appropriately say that God has a penis. There's no problem with that whatsoever.
2:43:51James KunzThis one from says
2:43:53James KunzI was low key having doubts then I remembered Jesus is God, now I'm gonna give doubts.
2:43:58James KunzHi, Derek. I love you and you as well, Joe.
2:44:03James KunzMatt Schneider says, Jake, if you were on the North Pole and Jay was on the South Pole, could you both point toward Allah?
2:44:10Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianYes. We don't believe space was an actual thing. It's relative.
2:44:16Jay DyerBut he believes that you can point up to Allah, and we believe that God is omnipresent.
2:44:21Jay DyerHe's not in a spatial location. Up is a spatial location.
2:44:26James KunzThis one from
2:44:27Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianDepends what you mean by spatial location, but we can go back
2:44:29Jay DyerLike up?
2:44:31Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianNo.
2:44:32Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianLike space You do believe.
2:44:33Jay DyerYou do believe. Up is so up is not a spatial location?
2:44:36Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianSpace space in an Aristotelian
2:44:38Jake the Muslim Metaphysiciansense of encompassing.
2:44:39Jay DyerIn your sense, you you believe that you can point up to Allah. You said it to Khalil.
2:44:43Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI already I already just said that right here in my answer.
2:44:46Jay DyerRight. That's spatially direct. You don't think up is a spatial direction?
2:44:50Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianWe believe in a jihad or a direction,
2:44:54Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianbut when you use spatial
2:44:55Jay Dyernot spatial?
2:44:56Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianWhen you use when you use spatial, it depends on what you mean by space.
2:45:00Jay DyerYeah. So a new definition of space that's
2:45:03Jake the Muslim Metaphysiciantotally No. We we have an Aristotelian
2:45:05Jake the Muslim Metaphysiciandefinition of space.
2:45:06Jay DyerOh, interesting. Yeah. So okay to use the medieval things here, but what about counting has to be post fraigo?
2:45:14Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI never said that. What are you talking about?
2:45:15Jay DyerYou did.
2:45:16Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI my critique was that you're inconsistent in your counting method, that you don't have a No.
2:45:20Jay DyerYou're inconsistent because you count you count the attributes by then.
2:45:23Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI already showed you that you look like a fool because I
2:45:25Jay Dyerdon't have So now you have to go you have to go to at homonym when I pin you down again.
2:45:29Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianWhen you did what?
2:45:31Jay DyerWhen I pin you down, you have to go to at homonym.
2:45:32Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianPeople pin me down.
2:45:33Jay DyerYou may be playing You
2:45:35Jay Dyerbecause you want You count by identity. You be
2:45:37James KunzI hate to do it.
2:45:38Jay DyerYou just count by identity.
2:45:40Jay DyerDo count by identity. Awesome loss. Multiple necessary beings?
2:45:44Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianNo. We don't.
2:45:45James KunzWe must move they say
2:45:46James Kunzquestion for Jake. Please ask this, James. Does Islam teach that Jesus is the nephew of Aaron and Moses?
2:45:54Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianSorry. Say that again?
2:45:55James KunzThey say, does Islam teach that Jesus is the nephew of Aaron and Moses?
2:46:01Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianNo.
2:46:02James KunzThis one from James says, can Jake,
2:46:05James Kunzput in quotes, tell us why Allah being called, quote, the one, the absolute
2:46:12James Kunzis not blatant
2:46:13James Kunzmimicry of.
2:46:17James KunzQuran
2:46:18James Kunzone twelve one through two. Thank you.
2:46:20Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianWe don't believe that Allah is
2:46:23Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianthe one or absolute in the way that Plotinist said. Plotinist
2:46:28Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianbelieved
2:46:29Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianin a complete
2:46:30Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianin divine simplicity in a radical sense. We don't believe in that whatsoever.
2:46:35Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianSo it's a complete
2:46:36Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianmisunderstanding of our actual position.
2:46:40James KunzThis one coming in from says,
2:46:42James KunzJake, does Allah act in time or is he timeless? How does the doctrine affect immutability?
2:46:47James KunzThe false
2:46:49James Kunzadhered to true Tawheed.
2:46:53Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianIf you mean by the philosophers Ibn Sina, we believe that he was a kafir.
2:46:57Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianSo sorry to tell you for
2:47:00Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianthe questioner we don't believe he was a Muslim in that sense unless you take the theory that he repented later in life.
2:47:06Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianBut nevertheless,
2:47:08Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI forgot what the first part of that question was besides the philosophers.
2:47:13James KunzSo does Allah act in time or is he
2:47:15Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianOh, yeah. I'm surprised that Jay didn't actually that I wish we would have had a chance to go through this more.
2:47:21Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianIf you mean by does Allah act
2:47:24Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianin time then yes we believe that he acts in succession
2:47:27Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianthat he had and this was actually and I mentioned this Jay and I don't agree on many things but in my debate review of his debate with us, Rachid,
2:47:36Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI think this is a serious problem that he highlighted
2:47:39Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianvery effectively
2:47:41Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianin pointing out that the Ashraudis don't believe that the attributes of action are actually divine attributes.
2:47:49Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianThey say that Allah's actions simply refer to his created effects. We think this is complete nonsense. No. We believe that his actions are actual
2:47:59Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianattributes or in the language of Eastern Orthodoxy,
2:48:03Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianour energies and they can have a beginning and a time and yet are uncreated. And I gave support from that from Imam in
2:48:10Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianmy opening presentation.
2:48:13James KunzThis one from
2:48:15James KunzAlexander.
2:48:16James KunzIt says, why does Allah have two right hands?
2:48:20Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianWhy does he have two right hands? I mean, it's just a such a silly question. If you actually read the text and understand
2:48:27Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianwhy the term right is used,
2:48:30Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianright is used in terms of blessing. So we believe that the blessings pour forth from Allah hands.
2:48:37Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianThat's the the meaning of the term which I have videos on that my channel explaining that. This is a standard tafsir or explanation of those hadith.
2:48:47James KunzSays,
2:48:48James KunzI'm currently twerking Matt
2:48:51James KunzBelcher says, Jake, if Allah is the only eternal, then why is the Quran also said to be eternal?
2:48:57Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianAgain, this is something I corrected Jay on. I'm surprised
2:49:01Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianwhen he thought that I believe that the Quran is eternal.
2:49:04Jay DyerI didn't say you believe that. I just said I wasn't talking about that.
2:49:06Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianYes. You did. You did.
2:49:07Jay DyerNo. I said I wasn't talking
2:49:09Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianabout that. You can go back to the tape and look at it yourself.
2:49:12Jay DyerI said I don't know what your position is there. I didn't say you believe that.
2:49:15Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianYou don't know what my position is, explained in the text. We don't say that the Quran is eternal in terms of a speech act. We believe that it was spoken in time to the angel and
2:49:26Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianthen to the prophet Muhammad So
2:49:29Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianwe don't believe that it is eternal in that sense. Only eternal in the sense of within God's knowledge that he knew what he would speak, but the act of speech itself
2:49:40Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianhappens at a particular moment in time.
2:49:43James KunzYou got it. This one coming in from do appreciate it. Sojourn on says, Jake, if Allah's hand is something that grabs, what is Allah's shin?
2:49:53Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianThis is just ridiculous questions. Anyway, thirty minutes He
2:49:56Jay Dyerthinks they're ridiculous because they don't wanna deal with these.
2:49:59Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianNo. I've I've answered how many times have I answered questions about Allah's hand, Allah's foot? Every single time about
2:50:05Jay DyerThe meaning, it doesn't tell us anything.
2:50:07Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianIt does. It does. I've explained the meaning several times over and over.
2:50:12Jay DyerEverybody focuses on this because your explanations are terrible. That's why they focus on it, Jake.
2:50:16Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianNo. It's because you guys don't understand the basics
2:50:19Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianof what I'm talking about when I say that it's a nominalist predication.
2:50:23James KunzGive Jake a chance
2:50:24Jake the Muslim Metaphysiciansay this. Have you can have a shared meaning, which I gave the meaning, and I said the meaning is known through the text, and I gave examples of that. Then you say
2:50:34Jay DyerAnd I buried you on that. Yeah.
2:50:35Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianAnd then you say that
2:50:36Jay DyerI nailed you on that because of
2:50:37Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianyour nominalism. You didn't you didn't nail me. But, Jake,
2:50:39Jay Dyeryou don't even know the basic critiques of nominalism.
2:50:42Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianDo know the basic critiques.
2:50:43Jay DyerNo. You don't because you said
2:50:44Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianin particular basic critiques of your
2:50:46Jay Dyerown you have logical laws?
2:50:48Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianYou don't know You You
2:50:49Jay Dyerdon't have logical laws at all.
2:50:50James KunzYes. Do. But just to get us back
2:50:52Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianon track. Yeah. Jake can't control himself. He has to interrupt it every moment.
2:50:57James KunzSaid,
2:50:59James KunzJake, if all his hand is something he grabs, what is all his shin?
2:51:02Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianYeah. I just I already responded to this question.
2:51:05James KunzYou got it.
2:51:05Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianMoose responded to it five times already.
2:51:08James KunzMoose says, j do you support LGBTQ
2:51:11James Kunzplus
2:51:12James Kunzand you should believe in progressive
2:51:16James KunzChristianity.
2:51:18James KunzWhat?
2:51:20James KunzI think this person's a troll, but I'll give you a chance. It's just the way they spelled progressive, but I I could be wrong.
2:51:26James KunzJay, do you support
2:51:28Jay DyerWell, it was a statement that I should.
2:51:30Jay DyerOr is what was it? A question? Do I? No. We don't we think that's a sin.
2:51:34James KunzThis one from
2:51:35James KunzHabakkuk
2:51:36James KunzAbu Muhammad
2:51:38James Kunzsays,
2:51:39James Kunzokay. There's not nothing about spanking. Giant
2:51:43James Kunzmeteor says, Jake, you didn't answer my question. I didn't say that all his hands and foot are body parts. I asked if they are counted by division but our identities are each one of them the whole of Allah.
2:51:56Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianThey're not counted by division. I already explained
2:51:59Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianthat they're inseparable
2:52:00Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianand yet we count them. They're inseparable and yet we count them as more than one that means we are counting them by identity which I think
2:52:09Jay Dyeris bit of a Right. So multiple necessary No.
2:52:11Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianThey're not most of the multiple necessary beings.
2:52:14Jay DyerI wanna Are they are they necessary?
2:52:16Jay DyerYou
2:52:17Jake the Muslim Metaphysiciancontinually
2:52:18Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianyou continually can't control yourself. You have to
2:52:20Jay Dyeranswer No. I just think it's funny. I just No. I'm having fun.
2:52:24Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianSo then so then if I do that on every time you answer the question, it's okay. Right?
2:52:28Jay DyerI don't care.
2:52:28Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianOkay. Well, then stick to the rules. We already established the rules and you keep going off the rules. So which one I
2:52:34James Kunzdo wanna I I
2:52:36James Kunzsympathize
2:52:37James Kunzwith you sympathize with you, Jay, because I know that there are way more questions for Jake and it's I know
2:52:42Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI you're would like yeah. But so many things Jay says, don't you think I would love to respond?
2:52:46James KunzOh, I know.
2:52:46Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianDon't worry. I'm being
2:52:47James KunzI'm getting there. What I was saying, I I sympathize,
2:52:51James KunzJay. I understand that
2:52:52Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI'm just saying we have to have consistent rules. Either Jay is gonna abide by them or you allow me to speak.
2:52:56James KunzJake, I'm I'm agreeing. I'm trying to basically give a, like, a rebuke to Jay right now. I'm just saying, Jay, I know that it's kinda boring when there are, like, a million questions for Jake, but to be fair, I do wanna keep it so that we're not having any sort of teaming up on Jake.
2:53:15James KunzThis one from pataclysm says, to Jake, does salaphysm hold normative authority to dogmatize and anathemize
2:53:24James Kunztheology,
2:53:25James KunzI e, aseity,
2:53:27James Kunzoccasionalism.
2:53:28James KunzAllah creates absolutely everything, making Allah the worst being. Would prayer
2:53:34James Kunzunder an asehari, imam, be valid?
2:53:39Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianOkay. So you're you're mixing two things. You're asking about prayer behind an Ashari Imam,
2:53:45Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianwhich is a question of fiqh,
2:53:47Jake the Muslim Metaphysiciannot merely aqeedah.
2:53:49Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianAnd when you talk about the Ashari position on occasionalism,
2:53:53Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianwe believe that they're completely wrong and that it's a deviant position because it goes against the clear text of the Quran and Sunnah and it also goes against reason
2:54:04Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianwhich again and
2:54:05Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI don't think Jay and I are very much friends here but I have to point out that he hammered Esra Rashid on the same point in the debate when
2:54:15Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianhe made the point which is a similar point that I would make which I don't know why they can't understand,
2:54:20Jake the Muslim Metaphysicianthat they make an argument based on causation or causal chains to prove that God exists. And then when you get there, they say, oh, by the way, all of those causal chains are not real.
2:54:32Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianSo it's it's just a complete falsehood.
2:54:35James KunzThis one from presupposos
2:54:37James Kunzsays, why did Mohammed get Mary the mother of Jesus and Mary the sister of Moses and Aaron confused?
2:54:45Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianSay repeat the question.
2:54:47Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianWhy did
2:54:47James KunzSay, why did Mohammed get Mary, the mother of Jesus, and Mary, the sister of Moses and Aaron confused?
2:54:56Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI'm not aware of him getting them confused. I mean, you have to go into more detail about that.
2:55:01James KunzThis one from Habak
2:55:04James KunzAbouma
2:55:05James KunzHamed says, a $100 of Jake can name more than five books on Jake's position.
2:55:11Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianJake?
2:55:12Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianWhat?
2:55:13James KunzThey technically said Jack's position,
2:55:16James Kunzwhich I don't understand.
2:55:18Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianYeah.
2:55:19Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianIt's alright. My Italian family still calls me Jack. They can't pronounce Jake for some reason, so it is what it is.
2:55:28Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianBut anyway, what's the question? What are we doing?
2:55:30James KunzThey said a $100 if Jay can name more than five books on Jack's position.
2:55:36Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianOh, so that's for Jay?
2:55:37Jay DyerThat's for me. So I have let's see.
2:55:41Jay Dyer1234.
2:55:43Jay DyerSo I have four books here with me.
2:55:46Jay DyerSo that would be the critique critique of the Palmyrene creed, which is not his position, but on his position. I have the Ibn Tamiya book,
2:55:54Jay Dyeroneness of God. I have the Sulaiman
2:55:56Jay Dyerbook,
2:55:57Jay Dyerwhat we're talking about today
2:56:00Jay Dyerwith
2:56:01Jay Dyerthe quotes. So
2:56:03Jay Dyerand then I've got all of the
2:56:06Jay Dyerchapters
2:56:08Jay Dyerin the Oxford handbook.
2:56:10Jay DyerSo I'm sure that doesn't meet the five criteria, but I don't think I need five, actually.
2:56:15Jay DyerDo do we count the Quran too? Does the so if if I count the Quran, that's five. Does that does that count?
2:56:22James KunzLenlon said, is Jake open to having a debate with Sam Shamoon?
2:56:27Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianNo. Guy is out of his mind.
2:56:31James KunzYou got it. Let's see this one from
2:56:35Jay DyerIs this been I thought it was thirty minutes of q and a.
2:56:37Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianYeah. We're going on longer than that, but I'm just
2:56:40Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianI'm being patient for James because I know that some of these are probably super chats, but we're eventually gonna have
2:56:46Jay Dyerto wrap it up. I mean That's fine.
2:56:47James KunzWe are. We're at the three hour mark, so we're gonna wrap it up. I wanna say, folks, thank you for tuning in. Check out both Jake's and Jay's links in the description box. That includes if you're listening via the podcast later, all the debates end up on the podcast within about twenty four hours of the debate being live. So if you're listening via Spotify,
2:57:04James KunzApple Podcast, you name it, both Jay and Jake are linked in the description box there. Check out their links now.
2:57:12James KunzThere's a value
2:57:14James Kunzin getting to hear a person's point of view straight from them,
2:57:18James Kunzsuch as going to their own videos at their own channel. So I highly encourage you, folks, check out their channels. With that, I wanna say thank you so much. It's been a true pleasure to have you both Jay and Jake.
2:57:27Jay DyerThank you, guys. It was a lot of fun.
2:57:29Jake the Muslim MetaphysicianThank you. My pleasure.
2:57:31James KunzFolks, stick around. I'll be back in just a moment with a post credit scene letting you know about upcoming debates. So thanks for being with us, and I'll be back in just a moment.
2:58:25James KunzThanks so much for coming by, folks. Thrilled to have you here and excited. I've gotta tell you, right now, what I'm excited about, I'm gonna show you a few things here. Because you might be thinking, like, what are you what are you so excited about, James? Like, tell me. I have to know. Well, couple of things. First is,
2:58:43James Kunzhere I am, bottom left. Wanna say thanks so much for being with us. If you have not already voted in that poll, it is still there waiting for you in the live chat. You can do that right now. Wanna encourage you as there's been about 3,500,
2:58:58James Kunz3,500,
2:58:59James Kunzif I remember right, last time I checked. That many votes.
2:59:03James KunzYeah. About that. 3,482,
2:59:07James Kunzwhich is huge.
2:59:08James KunzDo wanna encourage you to check that out. We are trying out some new things here at modern day debate. As you see at the bottom right of your screen let me just I'm gonna try top
2:59:17James Kunzleft or top right. There we go. Cleaning that up a little bit. As you see at the bottom right of your screen
2:59:22James Kunzis that some nights when we have a ton of questions and when we have limited time for the q and a, we're gonna do something where we're gonna try to get to the standard questions still, namely those that you just tag me and chat with and then ask, the question. We're gonna still try to get to those, but with limited time, we can't guarantee it. And then those nights, we're gonna have $5 minimum Super Chat. So it's just a way of trying to keep the if we especially if you have $2 super chats for insulting people, but we also don't want super chats that are, frankly, any amount that's insult people. But we noticed that,
2:59:55James Kunzyou know, not surprisingly, a $2 super chat, you only need so many characters to type in, you know, so and so is a jerk.
3:00:01James KunzSo that's one thing is we want, you could say, more authentic questions.
3:00:06James KunzBut wanna say, we appreciate you being here with us. I've got a lot of other things to mention in particular.
3:00:12James KunzWe actually have
3:00:13James Kunzthis
3:00:15James KunzTuesday.
3:00:16James KunzThe m c tune debate last Tuesday
3:00:20James Kunzon Flat Earth actually got,
3:00:23James Kunznicked
3:00:24James Kunzfor the night. So I do wanna let you know
3:00:28James Kunzthat is being rescheduled for this Tuesday. So that's one big one. And then the following Tuesday, glowy glowy face will be taking on a flat earther, a new one, in fact. So you don't wanna miss out on those debates. You haven't yet, hit that subscribe button as we have many more debates. But, also, you might be thinking, like, James, tell me, what else is going on? If you didn't notice on the screen before we started is that right now modern day debate is also trying something else out in particular.
3:00:54James KunzFolks, as you can see at the bottom right of your screen, Visible Wireless is a sponsor for this debate.
3:01:01James KunzIf you are paying more than you should for your mobile service,
3:01:05James Kunzthis is the time to switch over to Visible. And you're like, well, jeez. Well, how much is too much? With Visible, you can get it for just $20
3:01:13James Kunza month for unlimited talk,
3:01:16James Kunzunlimited text,
3:01:17James Kunzand unlimited data for just $20 a month if you use the link in the description box below.
3:01:23James KunzFolks, what are you waiting for? Save your hard earned money. Don't let it go for $35
3:01:30James Kunza month for the same thing over at Mint Mobile. Save that $15
3:01:34James Kunza month. Use it to go to Chipotle. Use it to get yourself some coffee. Whatever it is that you like to do instead of spending it on your mobile service. So that Visible link, if you use our link below,
3:01:45James KunzI can tell you, it is awesome.
3:01:48James KunzI use Visible myself. I will never promote something unless I actually use it, and I'm a fan of it. So I've gotta tell you, I use it, and it's amazing.
3:01:56James KunzI'm gonna throw that link in the old live chat, and I'm gonna pin it, and I'm gonna wrap up that poll with 3,500
3:02:03James Kunzvotes.
3:02:04James KunzThat is huge.
3:02:05James KunzBut I wanna say, we are excited about Visible being a sponsor for modern day debate, and I just realized I don't think I have that link.
3:02:14James KunzYeah. I don't I don't even have that in the description box. Let me grab that right now. And I wanna say thank you guys for all of your support. Thanks for your patience as a as a slacking on that one, but I'm gonna grab that link now. And I wanna say, folks, the cool thing about Visible Wireless is you also have unlimited hotspot
3:02:32James Kunzdata. Now the reason that's cool is because you could just
3:02:36James Kunzcancel
3:02:38James Kunzyour Internet at home. Because here's the thing, why?
3:02:42James KunzWhy have Internet at home when you could just say, hey.
3:02:45James KunzWhy don't I just use my hotspot on my phone? And then I can completely take out my Internet bill. Let's say it's $60 a month, and let's say you're paying 35 for mobile. So you could save 15 from your mobile bill, plus you could save 60 from no longer having Wi Fi. That's $75
3:03:02James Kunza month,
3:03:03James Kunzwhich over the course of a year,
3:03:06James Kunzthat would be $900
3:03:08James Kunzof savings over the course of a year. So I gotta tell you, folks, check out that visible link right now. You won't regret it. You have the potential to save $900
3:03:19James Kunzover the course of a year. So I just put that link for the Modern Day Debate visible affiliate link.
3:03:26James KunzSo for the first year, you get $20 a month. That that's it. It's just $20 a month
3:03:33James Kunzfor unlimited talk, unlimited text, unlimited high speed data,
3:03:38James Kunzincluding
3:03:39James Kunzunlimited,
3:03:40James KunzThanks, Shane, for sharing that in the old live chat, including
3:03:44James Kunzunlimited
3:03:45James Kunzhotspot data. So I I I'm just for me, I gotta tell you. I know everybody talks about,
3:03:51James Kunzhey.
3:03:52James KunzYou know, things are getting really expensive. There are some things. It is true. There are some things that are more expensive,
3:04:01James Kunzbut
3:04:02James Kunzmobile service is actually cheaper.
3:04:05James KunzFor me, I remember when I first got on a plan with data
3:04:09James Kunzindependently,
3:04:10James Kunzso, like, when I got off my parents'
3:04:13James Kunzcell service Wi Fi or not Wi Fi, mobile service,
3:04:17James Kunzis it was $25 a month, and I got unlimited talk, unlimited text, and two gigs per month of high speed data. That's it. Just two. So in other words, like, blow through that. You could blow through that in, like, a few days,
3:04:30James Kunzand then the rest of the month, you'd have just, like, super slow Wi Fi, or I should say super slow data for using your your phone.
3:04:37James KunzBut now for $20 a month, so cheaper,
3:04:41James Kunzlike, can get it compared to, like, six years ago. That actually that wasn't six years ago. That was more like ten years ago.
3:04:47James KunzFor ten year compared to ten years ago, you can get a better deal,
3:04:52James Kunzand it's actually cheaper than what I was paying ten years ago. So you can stick that in the face of inflation and tell them to, you know, stick that in their pipe and smoke it. Gotta tell you, it's huge savings. I,
3:05:05James Kunzanathema says I switched to Visible a few weeks ago, and I am loving the savings. That's awesome. And I love it too. Actually, I use Visible. I don't get the same deal you do. Now I am past that one year mark. I pay $25 a month. But even then, for me, I'm like, look. $25 is still better than when I was using Mint.
3:05:22James KunzIt's better than when I was using Boost.
3:05:24James KunzIt's better than when I was using I think there's another one I tried, like, Tether or something. I can't remember.
3:05:29James KunzTello? I think it was Tello. But highly encourage you, check out Visible's link if you were looking for saving a few bucks each month
3:05:39James Kunzon your mobile service. And potentially, like I said, you could use your phone as just a hotspot
3:05:44James Kunzall the time. Like, whenever you get home, just turn on the hotspot,
3:05:47James Kunzconnect your computer to it or whatever device you might be using,
3:05:51James Kunzand you don't even have a WiFi bill anymore. Amazing.
3:05:54James KunzSo pretty cool. Gotta tell you, I'm excited about that. I think it's a great deal. Wanna encourage you to check that out.
3:06:00James KunzThank you guys for your support. We're at 752
3:06:03James Kunzlikes.
3:06:04James KunzSeriously, it means more than you know.
3:06:08James KunzI'm gonna I'm gonna get some rest. It's been three hours, a little over. So
3:06:13James Kunzthank you guys for coming by. I wanna say hi to you, though, because I just I really do enjoy this, and I do just appreciate you being here. So dead alive maniac, I see you there in live chat. Thanks for being with us. Chica is it Chikami?
3:06:25James KunzLet me know if it's pronounced that way. Glad to have you here. Sonia, thanks for coming by. I see you there in the old live chat. Sinclan,
3:06:32James Kunzthanks for coming by. I see you there. Booty killer one two three. Thanks for dropping in. That's interesting. I am he. Thanks for coming in.
3:06:41James KunzAnathema,
3:06:41James Kunzgood to see you as usual.
3:06:43James KunzAs well as NYC Tom o eight. Thanks for coming by. Norak, happy to have you here. Says, wow.
3:06:51James KunzHow could they possibly do this? That's right. Visible is giving the deal of a lie a lifetime.
3:06:57James KunzAnd,
3:06:58James Kunzyou know what else is cheap? Netflix is cheap. But p h x five seven six, thanks for coming by.
3:07:05James KunzAnd let's see. They say,
3:07:07James Kunzmodern day debate.
3:07:09James KunzMy super chat was genuine, but you skipped it. I did mention earlier, if it wasn't a $5 super chat or higher, it was both on screen, and I did mention it verbally throughout the debate. So I gotta tell you,
3:07:21James Kunzyou gotta pay a little bit closer attention, man. Houston,
3:07:25James Kunzfor coming by.
3:07:26James KunzHappy to have you. Mas calo
3:07:29James Kunzcalolo,
3:07:31James Kunzthanks for coming by. Struggling Protestant, glad you're here. Sweet Bubbles, happy to have you here. Carzan, happy you're here. Gambit, glad to have you with us. Alonso Harris, happy you're with us. Windfire,
3:07:41James Kunzthanks for coming by.
3:07:43James KunzManuel
3:07:46James KunzPalaologos,
3:07:47James Kunzthanks for coming by.
3:07:49James KunzCaribou, thanks for dropping in. Awesome. Awesome clips. And mister Anderson, glad you're here. Abil, thanks for coming by. Solid ground. Glad to have you here. A catholic dada. Am I saying it right? Glad that you were with us. J samurai seventy nine, thanks for dropping in. Karzan, happy to have you here. Baruch Adam,
3:08:06James Kunzthanks for coming by.
3:08:08James KunzChikomi says, is visible any good? Yes. Visible is good. It's actually they use the satellites for Verizon. So you you have good coverage. That's one thing I love too is that, like, it's rare that I ever get to a spot where it's not good.
3:08:19James KunzSo,
3:08:21James KunzFrege on, thanks for coming by. See you there in the old live chat. Sim Claw, thanks for coming by. Trullo says your channel is growing. Nice to see. Thank you so much for your support. That means more than you know.
3:08:32James KunzAlso, I have to tell you, I am so excited, you guys.
3:08:36James KunzThank you guys for making Modern Day Debate grow as you have.
3:08:40James KunzWe owe it all to the debaters and to you. Thank you for sharing our debates, things like that, and thank you so much for just all of your support.
3:08:49James KunzLet's see.
3:08:50James KunzAnathema says, good to have you back for this huge debate, brother. I replied to your email. Was in hospital for a week. Wow. I hope you're doing okay. And, man, glad to have you here, Shane. I'm glad you are you're okay. If, you know, if you're here, we're we're glad you're you're here. So but I'll get back to your email, and I appreciate you. Appreciate you, man.
3:09:06James KunzUlika,
3:09:07James Kunzthanks for thanks for coming by. Stay there in the old live chat.
3:09:10James KunzAnd,
3:09:11James Kunzyeah, I wanna say, you guys do appreciate you. Thanks so much. Dead Alive Maniacs is loving the base. Please step in more. Jake was kinda slow. Okay. Let's see. Moel, thanks for coming by. So, Farid and Farid, thanks for coming by. See you there. John v, glad to have you with us. Golden victory lighthouse, thanks for coming by. Debate already wrapped up, just so you know. Thanks so much. Davidson trailer, happy to have you here. Houston,
3:09:34James Kunzto have you. And I wanna say, though, thank you guys for all your support. Hawaii NCC, it says feet pics.
3:09:39James KunzI'm working on it. Check your email. Thanks for coming by. I wanna say I love you guys. Thanks for all your support. Join us while we are small. This is Modern Day Debate's
3:09:48James Kunzearly stages.
3:09:50James KunzBelieve me. Join us while we are young. Our story is just beginning. Modern day debate is going to do huge things in the coming years. And someday, we're gonna look back and say, wow. You remember when we were so small? We had a 177,000
3:10:02James Kunzsubs.
3:10:03James KunzThat's how big we're going to be in the future. We're gonna host bigger and badder debates, more epic debates, things that are going to knock your socks off. Believe me.
3:10:12James KunzThey're gonna be tremendous.
3:10:14James KunzPeople will be saying, wow. I can't believe modern day debate how they pull that out? That's amazing. We're excited. We are continually improving ourselves
3:10:22James Kunzcomplete continually
3:10:24James Kunzdeveloping things,
3:10:26James Kunzimproving, tinkering, learning, and figuring out how we can improve more and more. I wanna say thank you guys so much for all of your support. We're excited about the future as we strive to provide
3:10:36James Kunza neutral platform so that everybody can make their case on a level playing field.
3:10:41James KunzWe believe that's important, and we know you believe that's important. We believe in letting a thousand flowers bloom, letting the chips fall where they may, giving people a chance to make their case on a level playing field. So I wanna say thanks for all your support. I love you guys. Keep sifting out the reasonable from the unreasonable, and we will see you at the next debate.