Jay Dyer · Sophist
107 callouts
- The Catholicism or Orthodoxy DEBATE: Tim Gordon vs. Jay Dyer | The Rift at 36:44overturned
The council overturned the call, so no points were given away.
bare assertion (+2)
“… the first thing that he said that was a basic theological mistake was that he identified God in the divine essence with aseity.”
Diogenes: Dyer calls it a basic mistake, but Gordon listed aseity as one expression of God's perfection and never said what Dyer claims, and no reason is given yet.- Aristotle overturn: On the record: Dyer opened by holding that the divine essence is unknowable and not positively identified with anything, and that the Father is the sole source; the called line, which charges Gordon with identifying the essence with aseity, is consistent with that stance but reads the identification into Gordon's words. Dyer does give a reason in the same turn: that making the essence autotheos would make the Son and Spirit autotheos too. Bare assertion needs nothing offered, and here something was. The charge that Gordon identified God with aseity is a misreading of him (a misrepresentation), but that is a different label. At 30:44 Gordon did tie aseity to simplicity ("contradicts his aseity"), and Dyer reasoned from there. So the call fails as labelled.
- Socrates overturn: Read blind, found nothing worth calling. Gordon did list aseity ("self subsisting") among the features of God as pure act, so Dyer's reading of him is fair. Dyer gives a reason for calling it an error: the Cappadocian and Constantinople I dictum that the Father alone is autotheos. That is a stated position within his own framework, not a bare assertion or a straw man. Whether the dictum holds, and whether Gordon's reply (the Father alone is autotheos in Catholic theology too) answers it, is argued later and does not make this line a fault.
- Plato overturn: On the record: Dyer declared at the opening that the divine essence is unknowable and not positively predicated, and that the Father is the sole source. He has held this throughout, and the called line fits that position. Dyer gave a reason straight after the line (36:51–37:30). It runs: calling the essence autotheos would make the Son and Spirit autotheos too, which he calls the Calvinist error. Gordon had listed aseity as an expression of God's perfection and tied composition to it. Dyer reads that as identifying the essence with aseity, which is arguable. A contested reading with a reason attached is not a bare assertion. If any fault exists, it is a misreading of Gordon, and that is a different label.
- The Catholicism or Orthodoxy DEBATE: Tim Gordon vs. Jay Dyer | The Rift at 1:00:36upheld
The council upheld the call: Jay Dyer gave away 1 point.
straw man (+1)
“I'm glad you don't think God answers prayers. So, again, you have a pagan metaphysical system.”
Diogenes: Gordon only said that God condescending to "reciprocity" with creatures "doesn't make sense" on Dyer's account; he never denied that God answers prayer, yet Dyer presents that denial as Gordon's view and attacks it.- Aristotle overturn: On the record: Dyer declared at the opening that the divine essence is unknowable and that God relates to creatures through real uncreated energies, and has held that God condescends to reciprocity with creatures; the called line misstates Gordon's objection as a denial of answered prayer, a distortion rather than a restatement of Dyer's own position. Gordon said that reciprocity "doesn't make sense" and asked how God could be acted upon and still immutable; he never denied that God answers prayer. Dyer's line is a jab that recasts that objection as a denial of prayer, but it is not developed into an attack on a weaker position. It is a closing quip, and the elements of straw man (an attack on the distorted version) are not clearly met. If anything it is a misrepresentation stated in passing. It is a toss-up, so the call is overturned.
- Socrates uphold: Read blind, found "misrepresentation", on the same ledger as the callout. Gordon never said God doesn't answer prayers. He said Dyer's "reciprocity" with passive potency doesn't fit immutability. He said "something can be acted upon, which you've said," and nothing else. Dyer attributes to him a denial he did not make, then uses it to label his system "pagan" with no argument. He presents this as Gordon's view. Gordon holds that God answers prayer without being changed. The line is a closing jab, but it states a distortion and uses it in place of an answer to the immutability charge.
- Plato uphold: On the record: Dyer declared at the opening that the divine essence is unknowable and imparticipable and that the energies are uncreated, and he has held that God condescends to reciprocity with creatures without any change in the essence; this line is a jab built on that position, not a restatement of it. Gordon said that reciprocity "doesn't make sense" and that something can be acted upon. He never denied that God answers prayer. Dyer's "I'm glad you don't think God answers prayers" attributes that denial to him and then uses it to charge a pagan metaphysical system. That is a straw man. Gordon had just said "I believe that something can be acted upon" and asked how God could then be immutable, which was a challenge to Dyer's metaphysics. It was said at the buzzer and in the heat of the exchange, so I rate it minor.
- The Catholicism or Orthodoxy DEBATE: Tim Gordon vs. Jay Dyer | The Rift at 2:02:46upheld
The council upheld the call: Jay Dyer gave away 1 point.
ad hominem (+1)
“You're changing the subject because you just got caught lying.”
Diogenes: Pressed on how *energeia* in the Nyssa quote shows the procession is not hypostatic, Dyer turns to accusing Gordon of lying over whether he knew the Greek word, though Gordon had named *energeia* in the exchange and the honesty charge has no bearing on what the quotation means.- Aristotle uphold: On the record: Dyer opened as Orthodox holding the Father as sole archê and the essence-energies distinction, and has held that line throughout; the called remark is a charge about Gordon's honesty, which is not a departure from that position but a personal attack. Gordon asked how energeia shows the procession is not hypostatic. Dyer did not answer; he said Gordon "just got caught lying" and was "changing the subject." The remark stands in place of an answer. Its relevance is weak, because the meaning of the quote does not rest on Gordon's honesty. Its truth is thin, because Gordon said "Energeia" twice, and his first answer ("I don't know. Energeia.") was hesitant but not a lie. It closed the exchange rather than inviting more examination. That is substitution plus the relevance, truth and aim elements. Dyer had a real point about the energetic-procession context, so I rate it minor, not major.
- Socrates uphold: Read blind, found "ad hominem". Dyer answers Gordon's point (that "energeia" can mean operation, work or product, so the Nyssa quote doesn't show a non-hypostatic procession) by calling him a liar who is changing the subject. The record doesn't back this. Gordon had already used and discussed "energeia" at 43:12 and 121:53, and he said the word again when asked. Dyer's "you just admitted you didn't know" rests on a stray "I don't know." The remark turns the exchange to the person and ends it, while the substantive question is left unanswered.
- Plato uphold: On the record: Dyer declared at the opening that Orthodoxy is the unchanged first-millennium church, with the Father as sole source and the essence–energies distinction, and has held that throughout; the called line is a personal charge of lying, not an application of that position. Gordon had asked how energeia shows the procession is not hypostatic, and Dyer did not answer. He accused Gordon of lying about knowing the Greek word, and the exchange turned to the person. Gordon had said "Energeia" twice, so the charge was thin and does not bear on what the quote means. Dyer had a little basis, since Gordon's first reply was hesitant, so the severity is minor.
- The Catholicism or Orthodoxy DEBATE: Tim Gordon vs. Jay Dyer | The Rift at 3:39:30overturned
The council overturned the call, so no points were given away.
bare assertion (+1)
“It says that the keys in Matthew 16 also applies to the emperor, which I don't believe, but the council also says that.”
Diogenes: Asked twice where Nicaea II says this, Dyer names no passage and points only to another debate and "you can look it up," yet relies on the claim to say Gordon's quotation "doesn't prove what you think it proves."- Aristotle uphold: On the record: Dyer opened as Orthodox holding the unchanged first-millennium church with collegial, synodal authority and no unique Roman jurisdiction, and has held that throughout; the called line is a claim in support of that position, not a departure from it. Dyer asserted a contested claim about Nicaea II applying Matthew 16 to the emperor. Asked twice where, he gave no passage and only said "look it up" and pointed to another debate. He then relied on it to say Gordon's quote "doesn't prove what you think it proves" (and again at 226:45). Nothing checkable was offered, and the verifier found nothing to support it, so the elements are met. Severity major is arguable, but the claim carried his answer to Gordon's strongest conciliar quote.
- Socrates overturn: Read blind, found nothing worth calling. Dyer says the council applies Matthew 16 to the emperor, which he doesn't himself believe, so the council's phrasing doesn't prove Gordon's reading. That is a reason tied to a checkable record, and he flags it as a point about the council rather than his own view. He gave no text when pressed, but he pointed to the Ubieta-Ibarra debate and his claim wasn't leaned on as settled. Nothing here is a clear fault or a clear merit.
- Plato uphold: On the record: Dyer declared at the opening that Orthodoxy is the unchanged first-millennium church, with collegial and synodal structure and no unique Roman jurisdiction, and has held that throughout; this line applies that position to Nicaea II's use of Matthew 16 but departs from it only in leaving the claim uncited. Dyer asserted a contested claim about what Nicaea II says. Gordon asked twice where, and Dyer named no passage, only another debate and "you can look it up". He then relied on the claim to say Gordon's quote proves nothing. The verifier could not find it, so the claim stays unsupported. It is mitigated: he later repeated it at 226:31 with the same thin backing, and the point is a side argument, not his main case. That makes it a real bare assertion, though not a major one.
- Thesmothetes overturn: By the rule: an element of the label is missing from the record. Bare assertion needs a contested claim with nothing offered for it. At 219:36 Dyer gave no passage when pressed. But he pointed to the Ubih–Ibarra debate, where the point was argued. At 226:45 he gave the content of the claim: the council cites "the gates of hell will not prevail" of the empire and emperor. That is something offered, though thin and unverified, so "nothing offered" is not made out. The verifier only found the claim unverified, not false.
- The Catholicism or Orthodoxy DEBATE: Tim Gordon vs. Jay Dyer | The Rift at 3:52:25upheld
The council upheld the call: Jay Dyer gave away 1 point.
straw man (+1)
“That is a condemned proposition. It's funny because you actually heard him seem to be arguing that tonight.”
Diogenes: Dyer says Gordon argued the condemned view that only ex cathedra statements bind, but Gordon said the pope is personally infallible only ex cathedra while ordinary teaching still demands "a submission in mind and will that's religious" and the universal ordinary magisterium belongs to the bishops.- Aristotle uphold: On the record: Dyer opened as Orthodox holding the unchanged first-millennium church with collegial, synodal authority and no unique Roman jurisdiction, and has held it throughout; the called line attributes a condemned proposition to Gordon and so is a charge about Gordon's position, not a restatement of Dyer's own. Gordon said the pope is infallible personally only ex cathedra. He also said the universal ordinary magisterium of the bishops is protected, and that ordinary papal teaching requires religious submission of mind and will. That is not the proposition "you only follow ex cathedra statements". Dyer attached the weaker, condemned version to him and attacked it, with the hedge "seem to be arguing" only softening it. The called line also does not lean on the 224:17 ruling.
- Socrates uphold: Read blind, found "misrepresentation", on the same ledger as the callout. Dyer says Gordon seemed to argue that one follows only ex cathedra statements, which Dyer calls a condemned proposition. Gordon did not say that. He said the pope is infallible only ex cathedra, and he repeatedly said the ordinary and universal magisterium of all the bishops with the pope is protected and binds. At 211:09 he said "ordinary and universal is all bishops," and at 247:48 he restated this. At most he claimed that ordinary papal teaching is not itself infallible. That is a different claim from the condemned one Dyer pins on him. The hedge "seem to" softens the charge a little, so the fault is minor.
- Plato uphold: On the record: Dyer declared at the opening that Orthodoxy is the unchanged first-millennium church, synodal and collegial, with no unique Roman jurisdiction. He has held that throughout, arguing that Vatican I's claims contradict earlier teaching. This line applies that position by charging Gordon with a condemned view of the magisterium, but the charge distorts what Gordon said. Gordon said the pope is personally infallible only ex cathedra. He also said ordinary papal teaching requires religious submission of mind and will, and that the universal ordinary magisterium belongs to all the bishops. That is not the condemned proposition that only ex cathedra statements bind, yet Dyer says Gordon was "seem[ing] to be arguing" it. The hedge softens the charge but does not remove it. It is closer to misrepresentation than to a full straw man, and the severity is overstated.
- The Catholicism or Orthodoxy DEBATE: Tim Gordon vs. Jay Dyer | The Rift at 3:56:19overturned
The council overturned the call, so no points were given away.
appeal to emotion (+2)
“The papacy is not your friend. It is a spiritual cancer, and it does not produce the thing that it claims to produce unity, holiness, and truth.”
Diogenes: After claims that the CIA "bought out" the papacy through Operation Gladio and that it serves the world economic forum, with only a pointer to his own videos, Dyer closes by casting the papacy as a "spiritual cancer," where the feeling carries the conclusion in place of an argument.- Aristotle overturn: On the record: Dyer opened as Orthodox holding the unchanged first-millennium church with collegial, synodal authority and no unique Roman jurisdiction, and has held that throughout; the closing line fits that position and does not depart from it. "Spiritual cancer" is ridicule and vivid rhetoric, but it comes at the end of a long argued case. That case included Unam Sanctam against the Syllabus of Errors, Vigilius, Honorius, the CCT/Alexandria documents and the forgeries. The line also states a reason: the papacy fails to produce unity, holiness and truth, which he had just argued with examples. Feeling here sits alongside reasons and does not carry the conclusion alone. The Gladio and WEF claims are weak and thinly supported, but that is a different fault from appeal to emotion.
- Socrates uphold: Read blind, found "appeal to emotion". Dyer closes with "a spiritual cancer" and "not your friend", after a run of insinuation (CIA, Gladio, world economic forum). The slur carries the conclusion; his claim that the papacy fails to produce unity, holiness and truth is asserted with no reason in this line. It is ridicule of the institution rather than of a person, so it is not ad hominem. His closing does give reasons elsewhere (Vigilius, Honorius, the Unam Sanctam contradiction), but this line itself is outrage standing in for argument.
- Plato overturn: On the record: Dyer declared at the opening that Orthodoxy is the unchanged first-millennium, synodal church with no unique Roman jurisdiction, and has held that throughout; the closing line is rhetoric riding on arguments he had already made, not a departure from that position. The "spiritual cancer" line is a barb attached to a reasoned case that Dyer had already made in the same closing: Vigilius, Honorius, the Unam Sanctam/Syllabus/Vatican II contradiction, and the Cate document admissions. Feeling alongside reasons is not an appeal to emotion, and the conclusion rests on those arguments, not on the metaphor. The Gladio and WEF aside is thin, but it was not the load-bearing ground.
- Thesmothetes overturn: By the rule: an element of the label is missing from the record. The second element of appeal to emotion is that the feeling carries the conclusion and no reason is given. That element is missing. In the same closing, Dyer argued Vigilius submitting to the council, Honorius's condemnation, and the Unam Sanctam contradiction with the Syllabus and Vatican II. He also cited the Cate and Alexandria documents. "Spiritual cancer" is a barb on top of that case. The line's claim that the papacy fails to produce unity, holiness and truth rests on those examples. The Gladio and WEF asides are thinly supported, but that is a different fault.
- DEBATE: Jay Dyer Vs Pastor Jonathan Shelley | Tradition Vs Sola Scriptura at 39:36overturned
The council overturned the call, so no points were given away.
misrepresentation (+2)
“You said that we don't know what the old [oral] tradition is, and so how do you know that it's wrong?”
Diogenes: Shelley never said Paul's oral traditions were wrong. He said he doesn't know their content and that traditions must be tested by Scripture. Jay attributes a claim of wrongness to him and, on that basis, announces a contradiction.- Aristarchus (transcript) corrected: "old" is a mishearing of "oral", since the minutes at 38:59 give "the oral traditions" and the debate is about what Paul's oral tradition taught.
- Aristotle overturn: On the record: Dyer opened by declaring that Scripture itself points beyond the text to oral tradition as the word of God, and he has held that throughout. This line presses that argument against Shelley's admission that he does not know what Paul taught orally, so it does not depart from his position. Shelley never said Paul's oral teaching was wrong. But he did say "Tradition can be wrong. Paul could be wrong" (36:51), and he held that everything must be tested by Scripture. Dyer's question is an inference from that, which Dyer later labels "implied." It is a pressed inference, not a flat claim that Shelley said something he did not. It is a toss-up whether misrepresentation is made out, so the call is overturned.
- Socrates overturn: Read blind, found nothing worth calling. Jay presses Shelley's admission that he doesn't know what Paul's oral teaching was, and asks how he can then judge it against scripture. That is a fair internal-critique question, though "wrong" stretches what Shelley said, since he only said tradition can be wrong and must be tested. Shelley also never answered the question. Whether this is misrepresentation or a fair press is a toss-up, so I call nothing.
- Plato uphold: On the record: Dyer declared at the opening that Scripture points beyond the written text to oral tradition as the word of God, and he has held that throughout; this line is part of pressing that point, but it puts a claim of wrongness on Shelley that Shelley never made. Shelley said he did not know what Paul's oral teaching contained and that traditions must be tested by Scripture. He did not say they were wrong. Dyer says "You said that we don't know what the old tradition is, and so how do you know that it's wrong?", which attributes a claim of wrongness to him and builds a contradiction on it. Shelley did say "Tradition can be wrong", but he said it about tradition in general, not about Paul's teaching. The attribution is not in the transcript, so the misrepresentation stands.
- Thesmothetes overturn: By the rule: an element of the label is missing from the record. What Jay attributes to Shelley is "we don't know what the oral tradition is," and Shelley did say that (38:12, 38:49). The "wrong" part is posed as a question, not as something Shelley is said to have stated. Shelley had also said "Tradition can be wrong. Paul could be wrong" (36:51) and that everything must be tested by Scripture, so Jay's later "you implied" (40:53) is a pressed inference. Shelley never answered it. The record does not clearly show Jay saying Shelley said something he did not, so the second element of misrepresentation is missing.
- DEBATE: Jay Dyer Vs Pastor Jonathan Shelley | Tradition Vs Sola Scriptura at 1:30:45upheld
The council upheld the call: Jay Dyer gave away 2 points.
straw man (+2)
“You believe that there's an eternal Quran like the Muslims, which is your KGV [KJV], which is idiotic and foolish.”
Diogenes: Shelley had already said the physical book is not eternal (34:28), that Christ is a person and not a book (87:34), and that the Bible is a manifestation of God's eternal word. Jay presents him as holding that the KJV itself is an uncreated eternal book, a more extreme view than Shelley stated.- Aristarchus (transcript) corrected: "KGV" is a mishearing of "KJV" (King James Version), since the debate is about the Bible as an eternal book and S2 is quoting scripture.
- Aristotle uphold: On the record: Dyer opened by declaring that the Word is a divine person known through both written text and oral tradition, and that the Bible is a created medium. He has held that throughout. This line charges Shelley with an eternal-Quran view, which departs from what Shelley actually said. Shelley repeatedly denied that the physical book is eternal (34:11, 34:28, 87:34). He said the physical Bible is a manifestation of God's eternal word. He did say "the Bible is eternal" at 33:25, and he said "the words inside" are eternal, so Dyer has some basis. Dyer still presents him as holding that the KJV itself is an uncreated Quran-like book, which is a more extreme version than Shelley's recorded view, and he attacks it as his view.
- Socrates uphold: Read blind, found "straw man". Jay says Shelley believes in an eternal Quran-like KJV. Shelley said the physical book is not eternal, and that the words manifest the eternal Word (Christ) (34:07-34:31, 87:39-87:44, 91:05-91:09). Jay presents the Quran parallel as Shelley's view, answers it with "idiotic and foolish", and leaves Shelley's distinction untouched. Shelley did say "the Bible is eternal" (33:25), so a charitable version of the parallel exists. It is still a harsher version than the one Shelley held, and the insult stands in for engaging him.
- Plato overturn: On the record: Dyer declared at the opening that the Word is a divine person made known through both written text and oral tradition, and that the Bible is a created medium. He has held that throughout, and this line attacks Shelley's claim that the Bible is eternal. It is consistent with that position. Shelley said the physical book is not eternal. He also said the words in it are eternal, and he said "Yes" when asked if the Bible is eternal (33:36). He said "It's the words inside" at 91:09, and "all these words are from eternity past" at 148:44. Dyer's "eternal Quran" comparison targets that claim. It is a hostile gloss, but it is not a clear distortion, and Dyer has already granted Shelley's physical-book distinction. Because it is close, the call is overturned.
- DEBATE: Jay Dyer Vs Pastor Jonathan Shelley | Tradition Vs Sola Scriptura at 1:33:47overturned
The council overturned the call, so no points were given away.
misrepresentation (+2)
“But, again, you just don't believe the word of God is made…”
Diogenes: Shelley affirmed in this very exchange (93:27, 93:42-93:44) and throughout the debate that Christ is the Word made flesh and a person, and that he was "in flesh, not in a book." Jay says Shelley does not believe this and goes on to call him a Jew and a Muslim on that basis.- Aristotle overturn: On the record: Dyer opened by declaring that the Word is a divine person known through both written text and oral tradition, and that the Bible is a created medium; he has held that throughout, and this line charges Shelley with not believing the Word became flesh, which goes beyond that position. The quote is cut off ("the word of God is made") and the sentence is unfinished. It reads most naturally as "made in flesh, only in a book", which is Dyer's recurring charge that Shelley treats the Bible as the Word. Shelley had just said Christ is the Word made flesh, so Dyer's line does misstate that. But the transcript is mangled and the next lines ("Not in a book. ... But, again, you just don't believe the word of God is made in flesh. There's...") show the intended claim is that Shelley makes the text itself the incarnate or eternal Word. That restates Dyer's position that Shelley's view is a bibliolatry. The elements of misrepresentation are not clearly met, so I resolve the close call by overturning.
- Socrates overturn: Read blind, found nothing worth calling. The line is a fragment: "you just don't believe the word of God is made [flesh]... Not in a book." It restates Jay's standing point about the Word as a person. Shelley had just said the Word was manifested in flesh, not in a book, so the line does no new work. It is a muddled, partly mangled restatement and no fault or merit shows.
- Plato overturn: On the record: Dyer declared at the opening that the Word is a divine person made known through both written text and oral tradition, and that the Bible is a created medium. He has held that throughout. This line restates that distinction in a truncated sentence ("you just don't believe the word of God is made in flesh... not in a book"), so it does not depart from his position. The quote is cut off mid-sentence. Read charitably with the transcript, Dyer is saying Shelley does not hold that the Word is made flesh in a person *and not in a book*. That is his standing charge that Shelley equates the Bible with the eternal Word. Shelley did say the "word of God is eternal" of the text, and he argued at 92:01 that the Word was manifested in the Bible. So Dyer's claim is a hostile characterization of Shelley's position, not a clear false attribution. Shelley affirmed that Christ is the Word incarnate, but Dyer's complaint concerned the identification of text and Word. The elements of misrepresentation are not clearly met. The abuse that followed would fall under ad hominem, which is a different label.
- DEBATE: Jay Dyer Vs Pastor Jonathan Shelley | Tradition Vs Sola Scriptura at 2:03:56overturned
The council overturned the call, so no points were given away.
bare assertion (+2)
“Yes. They were. With icons? Yes. You can read the scholarship on it.”
Diogenes: Asked whether first-century house churches held liturgical services, Jay says yes, with icons, and points to unnamed "scholarship". The only concrete reference he gives is Dura-Europos, which is third-century, so nothing offered supports first-century icons or liturgy, and he relies on it as proof that Orthodox practice is apostolic.- Aristotle overturn: On the record: Dyer opened by declaring that Scripture points beyond the text to oral tradition and that Orthodox liturgical and ecclesial practice rests on apostolic tradition, and he has held that throughout. This line asserts early liturgy and icons, which is consistent with that position and does not depart from it. Dyer did offer something for the claim. He pointed to scholarship, named the Dura-Europos synagogue in the next breath, and cited Protestant and Anglican liturgical scholars right after. He also gave Michael Garden's book on early icons and the catacombs earlier in the debate. That is thin, but it is not nothing. Dura-Europos is third-century, so it does not show first-century icons, which is a weakness in the evidence. Because he offered some evidence, it is not clear that every element of bare assertion is met. The call is overturned.
- Socrates uphold: Read blind, found "bare assertion". Asked whether first-century house churches had liturgy with icons, Jay says "Yes" and "You can read the scholarship on it," and names no author or work. Dura-Europos at 124:00 is a vague gesture that comes after the line, and the claim is contested and then relied on. The unnamed scholarship is a pointer to evidence and not evidence, so this is a bare assertion.
- Plato overturn: On the record: Dyer declared at the opening that Scripture points beyond itself to oral tradition and that Shelley has no basis for the Protestant canon, and he has held that throughout; the called line applies his tradition-based case to liturgy and icons, so it fits his position rather than departing from it. Dyer offered something checkable: "you can read the scholarship," then Dura-Europos, and earlier he cited the Apostolic Fathers and Michael Garden on icons. A pointer to scholarship and a named site is not nothing offered. Whether it supports first-century icons is arguable, and that goes to the weight of the evidence. Given the close call on whether the elements are present, the call is overturned.
- Thesmothetes overturn: By the rule: an element of the label is missing from the record. Bare assertion needs a claim with nothing offered for it. Jay pointed to scholarship, named the Dura-Europos synagogue in the next breath, and cited Protestant and Anglican liturgical scholars right after. Earlier he gave Michael Garden's book on early icons and the catacombs, and the Apostolic Fathers on liturgy. That evidence is thin, and Dura-Europos is third-century, but its weight is arguable and it is not nothing. The "nothing offered" element is therefore missing.