Bible Believer (caller) · Philosopher
1 callout
- Jay Dyer vs Pastor P Debate Orthodoxy vs Protestantism, Sola Scriptura and Church History at 1:28:50upheld
The council upheld the call: Bible Believer (caller) earned 2.4 points.
dilemma (+2.4)
“… is the list of books infallible?... So there's something outside of the Bible that's infallible?... Okay. So sola scriptura is not what you believe then. Then you do believe believe in infallible authorities outside of the the bible.”
Diogenes: Either the canon list is fallible, in which case his perfect Bible rests on a fallible foundation, or it is infallible, in which case an authority outside Scripture is infallible; he takes the second horn — "you're saying that the council of Carthage was infallible in that case? In that case, yes" — and sola scriptura is surrendered.- Aristotle uphold: On the record: Pastor P's declared and repeatedly held position since the opening is strict sola scriptura — the perfect written word alone, superior to fallible councils and churches — and this exchange is the point at which, under direct pressure, he explicitly grants that a council's decision was "infallible," a substantive concession that sits in real tension with the sola scriptura framework he has held throughout, not a mere restatement of it. S6 sets up a genuine dilemma: is the canon list fallible (undermining the "perfect word" resting on it) or infallible (meaning an authority outside Scripture is infallible, contradicting sola scriptura)? Pastor P takes the second horn explicitly — "I believe it is [infallible]" and, when Jay presses further ("the council of Carthage was infallible in that case?"), confirms "In that case, yes" — after which S6 closes the trap: "sola scriptura is not what you believe then... you do believe in infallible authorities outside of the Bible." Pastor P's only attempted recovery ("the books were there, they just had to be confirmed... God confirmed them") comes only after the concession was already given in direct response to the specific question, and does not undo the admission that an infallible authority outside the text (the council's infallible act of confirmation) is doing real work in his system.
- Socrates uphold: Read blind, found "explicit argument", on the same ledger as the callout. The caller builds a plain premise-conclusion case through direct questioning: he gets Pastor P to affirm the 66-book list is infallible, draws out that this makes it "something outside of the Bible that's infallible," and concludes plainly that "sola scriptura is not what you believe then" since Pastor P's own framework holds only scripture, not councils, to be infallible — a conclusion Pastor P does not contest at the time.
- Plato uphold: On the record: S1's declared position from the opening is sola scriptura: scripture alone is perfect and authoritative, with no other infallible authority. S6 poses a genuine two-horned dilemma about whether the canon list is infallible, and S1, pressed on Carthage specifically, takes the horn that concedes an infallible authority outside the Bible, which S6 then correctly identifies as abandoning sola scriptura.