Appeal: misrepresentation
From Debate! Pagan vs. Orthodox: Logos, Language & Metaphysics - Jay Dyer Vs CB Robertson.
- #106348:40upheld Jay Dyer psogos: misrepresentation (+1)
The council upheld the call: Jay Dyer gave away 1 point.
“No. You were saying that your experience was that both Protestants and Orthodox don't care about the offer of salvation or something like that.”
Diogenes: CB's actual words were that both "should care, but some don't," a claim about practice failing an obligation, not the flat generalisation Jay attributes to him, and CB has to correct him on the spot.- Aristotle uphold: On the record: Jay's declared method throughout is to pin down the opponent's exact claim before responding to it; this restatement departs from that practice by flattening CB's qualified normative claim into an unqualified empirical one, requiring CB's on-the-spot correction. Immediately before this line, CB's on-record statement was nuanced: "the sense of care... extends through the orthodox world as well... at least in principle it should... [regardless of] the number of people who are faithful" (47:58–48:20) — a normative "ought, though some fall short" claim, not a flat descriptive generalization. Jay's paraphrase drops the "should" and compresses it into "your experience was that both Protestants and Orthodox don't care," which CB immediately and correctly rejects ("No. No. No. I was saying that both Protestants and Orthodox should care, but some don't"), showing the transcript does not support the attribution as stated.
- Socrates uphold: Read blind, found "misrepresentation". CB had made a normative claim ("the sense of care... should" extend through the Orthodox world too) about a group he'd just clarified was not Protestant, but Jay restates it as an empirical claim that CB's "experience was that both Protestants and Orthodox don't care about the offer of salvation." CB immediately corrects this at 48:53 ("No. No. No. I was saying that both Protestants and Orthodox should care, but some don't"), confirming the transcript shows Jay attributed to him something he had not actually said.
- Plato uphold: On the record: CB's declared point in this stretch was a normative claim (believers should care about the truth of their faith) illustrated by a personal anecdote about lax "Sunday Christians"; Jay's restatement turns that into a flat empirical generalization CB never made, and the transcript shows CB correcting the record on the spot. CB's actual words were that care for the faith "should" extend through Orthodoxy "at least in principle," immediately followed by an acknowledgment that mere faithfulness-in-practice doesn't bear on truth or falsehood — a normative/aspirational claim, not a factual claim that Protestants and Orthodox generally "don't care." Jay's summary flattens this into "your experience was that both Protestants and Orthodox don't care," which CB immediately and correctly disputes ("No, no, no... should care, but some don't"), confirming the mischaracterization.
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