Appeal: framework objection
From Jay Dyer vs Pastor P Debate Orthodoxy vs Protestantism, Sola Scriptura and Church History.
- #133441:52upheld Jay Dyer epainos: framework objection (+1)
The council upheld the call: Jay Dyer earned 1 point.
“… that's just presupposing your position. That's assuming that the apostles didn't hand down a liturgy where the focus of the service was communion.”
Diogenes: He names the presupposition buried in his opponent's claim that preaching is central — that no apostolic liturgy was handed down — and identifies it as the question that must be settled first.- Aristotle uphold: On the record: S0 has held since the opening that apostolic liturgy centered on the Eucharist is a matter of historical apostolic tradition that cannot simply be presupposed away by a sola-scriptura preaching-centered model; this remark is consistent with, not a departure from, that standing claim. Pastor P asserts that preaching/teaching of the word was central to New Testament worship and liturgy "secondary." Jay identifies the buried presupposition — that this claim assumes as settled the very point in dispute, namely whether the apostles handed down a liturgy centered on communion — which is exactly the question he had argued in his opening statement needs to be decided by appeal to church history and the fathers (Justin Martyr, Irenaeus) rather than assumed. This names the presupposition and points to the antecedent question, meeting the framework-objection elements, if only briefly.
- Socrates uphold: Read blind, found "fallacy spotted", on the same ledger as the callout. Jay had already argued, with citations to Justin Martyr (c.150) and Irenaeus (c.180) describing a Eucharistic altar and oblation, that the apostles handed down a communion-centered liturgy as normative worship; when Pastor P simply reasserts that "the preaching of the word of God... is central" and liturgy "secondary," he does so without engaging that specific historical claim, effectively assuming as given the very point in dispute (whether the apostolic pattern centered worship on preaching or on the Eucharist). Jay names this precisely — "that's just presupposing your position" — which is a correct diagnosis of begging the question rather than a rebuttal invented from nothing.
- Plato uphold: On the record: S0's opening and running argument is that apostolic oral/liturgical tradition, centered on the Eucharist, is handed down independently of the text; flagging that S1's "preaching is central" claim presupposes the opposite is a direct, consistent application of that framework, not a new or evasive move. S1 claimed the "preaching of the word of God" was central to New Testament worship and liturgy secondary; Jay identifies that this claim silently assumes the very point in dispute — whether the apostles handed down a Eucharist-centered liturgy — and names it as such, rather than simply refusing to engage.
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