Appeal: antistrephon
From Jay Dyer vs Pastor P Debate Orthodoxy vs Protestantism, Sola Scriptura and Church History.
- #134147:08upheld Jay Dyer against Pastor P agonisma: antistrephon (+3)
The council upheld the call: Jay Dyer earned 3.6 points.
“… so you're admitting that god used the Byzantine church to preserve your bible... it doesn't matter because it refutes your position, so you don't want it to matter.”
Diogenes: Pastor P's own case for providential preservation — Erasmus, the received text, Luther, the King James — is taken over and made to serve the Orthodox side, since the received text is the Byzantine text of the church he rejects; his only reply is to repeat "it doesn't matter."- Aristotle uphold: On the record: Pastor P's opening and consistent position is that God providentially blessed the transmission of his received text (Erasmus, Luther, King James) as evidence that his 66-book Protestant canon and text are correct; this exchange is where Jay takes that very providential-preservation argument and turns it to serve the Orthodox case. Having already established (and been credited for, at 45:22) that the "received text" Pastor P relies on is specifically the Byzantine New Testament text preserved by the church now called Orthodox, Jay explicitly redeploys Pastor P's own providential-blessing argument against him: if God's blessing on the transmission chain proves the text is correct, that blessing runs through the very Byzantine/Orthodox church Pastor P rejects — a clean antistrephon, and Pastor P's only reply is the bare, unreasoned "doesn't matter, doesn't matter," which does not engage or defeat the retorsion.
- Socrates uphold: Read blind, found "explicit argument", on the same ledger as the callout. Jay lays out a plain premise-conclusion structure: the "received text" Pastor P relies on is the Byzantine text-type (already established as fact a few lines earlier), that text-type was preserved specifically by the Byzantine/Orthodox church, therefore Pastor P's own Bible depends on the ecclesial transmission he claims is unnecessary — an inconsistency Pastor P answers only with a bare "doesn't matter" rather than engaging the implication.
- Plato uphold: On the record: Pastor P's stated argument for authority throughout this stretch is providential blessing on the textual/translation lineage (Erasmus/Luther/KJV); Jay's move takes that very premise and shows it identifies the Byzantine church as the preserving agent, turning Pastor P's own argument to serve the Orthodox position rather than departing from what either side had argued. Pastor P's own providential-blessing argument for his bible's authority rests on the transmission chain: the Textus Receptus (Erasmus) to Luther's German to the King James. Jay establishes, over several exchanges, that the "received text" Pastor P is invoking is in fact the Byzantine New Testament text-type — the text tradition of the very Orthodox Church Pastor P rejects. Jay then explicitly redeploys Pastor P's own "God blessed this transmission" logic against him: if God's blessing on the text's preservation is the proof, that blessing ran through the Byzantine/Orthodox church, which serves Jay's side rather than Pastor P's sola scriptura framework. Pastor P's only reply is a bare, repeated "it doesn't matter," conceding the point without engaging it.
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