Appeal: misrepresentation
From Jay Dyer vs Pedro from Crucible Debate: Sola Scriptura and Protestantism.
- #15591:15:31upheld Jay Dyer psogos: misrepresentation (+2)
The council upheld the call: Jay Dyer gave away 2 points.
“You don't believe that God is sovereign and powerful enough to use the church.”
Diogenes: Ninety seconds earlier Jay had said "I think God providentially used the church... And I totally agree. That's how the church determined the canon," so this attributes to him the exact opposite of what he said.The archon moved this call from Pedro to Jay Dyer, who said the line. The referee's reason above was written when it was on Pedro.
- Aristotle uphold: On the record: Jay Dyer's standing thesis is that the visible historic Church is an indefectible instrument perpetually indwelt by the Spirit, and his recurring critique (echoed later at 89:40, which stands on the record) is that Reformed ecclesiology implies the Church can fail; here, however, he does not merely draw that inference but states Pedro denies something Pedro had just twice affirmed in the immediate exchange, which is a departure into misrepresentation rather than a restatement of his standing critique. Ninety seconds before this line Pedro said "I totally agree" to Jay's statement that God providentially used the church to determine the canon, and in the intervening exchange Pedro reaffirmed the point again ("still were used providentially by the sovereign God") even while analogizing the church to Israel "derailing." Jay's line then asserts the flat opposite - that Pedro does not believe God is sovereign and powerful enough to use the church - which the adjacent transcript directly contradicts; this is not an inference from an ambiguous claim but a reversal of something Pedro just affirmed twice in the same breath.
- Socrates uphold: Read blind, found "misrepresentation". Pedro's stated position throughout, including moments earlier, is that God sovereignly used the church as his instrument to deliver scripture ("we are instruments used by God"); he never denies God's power to use the church. Jay's line recasts this as Pedro denying "God is sovereign and powerful enough to use the church," and Pedro immediately rejects the charge ("No. No. No. No. No. I don't think the church failed"), matching the same overstatement pattern Jay repeats elsewhere in the debate (e.g. at 73:38 and 89:40).
- Plato uphold: On the record: Pedro's position, restated and freshly reaffirmed just ~80 seconds before this line (at 74:08-74:18, where Jay said "I think God providentially used the church... that's how the church determined the canon" and Pedro replied "And I and I totally agree"), is that God's sovereignty operates precisely through the church as instrument; Jay's line asserting Pedro doesn't believe God is sovereign/powerful enough to use the church contradicts that just-given concession. The transcript shows Pedro explicitly agreeing, moments earlier in this same exchange, to the very proposition Jay now says Pedro denies (that God providentially used the church); Jay's line puts in Pedro's mouth the opposite of what he had just affirmed, which is a textbook misrepresentation rather than a fair characterization of an implication of Pedro's human-institution language.
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