Appeal: fallacy spotted
From Protestant vs. Orthodox: Scripture and Tradition (Gavin Ortlund + Stephen De Young).
- #16041:33:58upheld Gavin Ortlund epainos: fallacy spotted (+2)
The council upheld the call: Gavin Ortlund earned 2 points.
“… there's historical claims made from the Eastern Orthodox Church at Nicea Two... but then when there's, I would say, resounding counter evidence to a particular claim, then there's, you know, well, we don't have all the information. Well, something didn't need to be opposed yet. There's all all these kind of qualifications. And I I guess I just I feel that there's an inconsistency in how his history is being wielded…”
Diogenes: He identifies special pleading in the pattern of his opponent's replies — history as proof when it favours the claim, lost documents and unnecessary defence when it does not — naming a real asymmetry in the standards being applied.- Aristotle uphold: On the record: S2 has held since his opening that historical evidence, evaluated by consistent standards, is decisive for adjudicating claims of apostolic practice, and this line applies that standard by naming a concrete pattern across the debate: S3 treats favorable historical claims (Basil, the Jerusalem Talmud, synagogue archaeology) as decisive while discounting unfavorable testimony (Eusebius, Tertullian, patristic silence) via ad hoc excuses each time, rather than introducing a new complaint. The asymmetry is real and traceable in the transcript — S3 repeatedly discounts adverse patristic witnesses (heterodoxy elsewhere, lost documents, "no need to defend a norm") while treating favorable evidence (Basil, synagogue archaeology, the Talmud) as straightforwardly probative — so Ortlund is naming a genuine pattern of special pleading in what his opponent actually argued, not inventing one.
- Socrates uphold: Read blind, found "explicit argument", on the same ledger as the callout. Gavin names a real tension he has just observed: De Young appealed to specific historical evidence (Basil, the Jerusalem Talmud, archaeological synagogue iconography) to argue for the antiquity of icon veneration, yet elsewhere maintains that a council's authority rests not on "what really happened" historically but on its ecclesial reception, and met the counter-evidence about early opposition with qualifications ("we don't have all the information," "it didn't need to be opposed yet") rather than direct rebuttal. This is a substantive charge about how the standard of evidence shifts depending on which side the historical claim favors, which bears directly on whose case is better supported, not a mere aside.
- Plato uphold: On the record: S2's standing concern since the opening has been that oral/traditional claims are vulnerable to unfalsifiable special pleading (the Pharisee analogy, the 'wax nose' remark on tradition at 44:xx); this line is a direct continuation of that same standing critique applied to the specific historical exchange over icon veneration, not a new departure. Gavin identifies a real pattern — De Young affirming historical continuity as authoritative when it favors Nicaea II while introducing evidentiary qualifications (lost documents, "didn't need defending") when confronted with contrary evidence — and states it plainly with reasons. But he never names a specific fallacy (he says "inconsistency," not "special pleading" or any term from the standard taxonomy, and special pleading isn't itself one of the enumerated named fallacies), so this is better credited as a clearly stated explicit argument about an asymmetry in his opponent's evidentiary standards than as a 'fallacy spotted.'
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