Appeal: false claim

From Plagues, Popes & Pandemonium! OPEN DEBATE! Geopolitics, Conspiracy, Theology, Film! 2026-10-05 17:50.

• #22431:29:22upheld Phantom (caller) claim: false claim (+1)
  The council upheld the finding, but nothing on this stream goes on anyone’s record.
  The claim, as Thucydides noted it: From medieval Serbia to today's Russia, Serbia, Bulgaria, and Greece, nothing has changed in the Orthodox countries' treatment of homosexuality: it is not a crime but is regarded as immoral, and gay people are left alone as long as they do not promote it in public or around children.
  Diogenes: Thucydides (verifier): unsupported; the source does not bear what is drawn from it. The caller names no source, and the record contradicts "nothing has changed." Male homosexuality was a crime in Russia from the Tsarist and Soviet codes (Article 121, 1934) until 1993. Serbia, which was then part of Yugoslavia, criminalized it until 1994, and Bulgaria did so until 1968. Medieval Serbian church law, such as St. Sava's Nomocanon, drew on Byzantine canons that penalized same-sex acts. Russia since 2013 has also banned "propaganda" and in 2023 labeled the "LGBT movement" extremist. So the picture is not a steady sin-versus-crime distinction, and the conclusion "always distinguished sin from crime" is not borne out.
  • Aristotle uphold: On the record: Phantom (caller) opened by saying he called to address the earlier sin-versus-crime discussion, claiming Orthodox countries have treated homosexuality as immoral but not criminal for eight hundred years, and he has held that line; the called line is that same claim, so it does not depart from his position, but it is checked as a matter of fact. The claim that nothing has changed is a flat factual assertion with no source named. The legal record contradicts it: Russia criminalized male homosexuality until 1993, Serbia until 1994 and Bulgaria until 1968, and Russia's 2013 and 2023 laws are not a policy of leaving gay people alone. No one corrected it on the floor, so the verifier's finding holds.
  • Socrates uphold: Read blind, found "hasty generalisation", on the same ledger as the callout. Phantom makes a sweeping claim that nothing has changed across eight hundred years in Serbia, Russia, Bulgaria and Greece, and he offers only that he "found" it, with no source or case named. Jay, who is on the floor, listens and hasn't yet answered. The claim is also doubtful on its face: Russia criminalised sodomy in the 1700s and again under the Soviets, and it now has "gay propaganda" laws. Without named evidence it reads as a general claim drawn from little, though it is close to bare assertion and the call is marginal.
  • Plato uphold: On the record: Phantom (S13) entered as a caller with no thesis beyond recounting his own research on how Orthodox countries have treated homosexuality as sin rather than crime; the called line is that claim, and it is a factual assertion with no source given. "Nothing has changed" over eight hundred years is contradicted by well-known legal history: Russia criminalized male homosexuality until 1993, Serbia until 1994 and Bulgaria until 1968. The caller named no source, and nobody on the floor objected. The claim is false as stated, so the verifier's finding holds.

  The bench voted on this, and its verdict is kept as it was given. It does not vote on the calls of a call-in show now, and nothing there counts on anybody’s record.

  Judged on 2026-10-05 under rules 3fcdc91a53f9, since revisedAppeal this callout

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