Appeal: begging the question
From DEBATE: Jay Dyer Vs Pastor Jonathan Shelley | Tradition Vs Sola Scriptura.
- #228623:21upheld Jonathan Shelley psogos: begging the question (+1) tempered from major to minor
The council upheld the call: Jonathan Shelley gave away 1 point.
“Because no other book matches the divine voice.”
Diogenes: Asked twice how he knows the 66 books are the limit of the canon, he answers that the 66 have a "divine voice" and no other book does. That assumes the very canon that Jay disputes, and it offers no check outside the Bible's own self-attestation.minor: It is his answer on the central canon question and he returns to it after being pressed, but his earlier, partly checkable tests keep it below flagrant.
The bench graded it minor (Aristotle, Plato); the referee had major.
- Aristotle uphold: On the record: Shelley opened by declaring Christ the infallible head and final authority, with his word identified as the written Scripture, and has held that Scripture is self-authenticating and known by its divine voice throughout; the called line restates that and does not depart from it. Asked how he knows the 66 books are the right canon, Shelley answers that no other book matches the divine voice. The voice is the property of the books whose canonicity is in dispute, so the answer uses the conclusion as its ground. He names no check outside the thing in question, which is the bare circle of the second rung and not an answer. His other tests (internal consistency, reception, preservation in Hebrew) come later in the exchange, but this line offers none of them. Because the circle is offered to an opponent who disputes it, I uphold.
- Socrates uphold: Read blind, found "begging the question". Asked how he knows the 66 books are the limit of the divine voice, he answers that no other book matches the divine voice. That uses the criterion in dispute as its own ground, which is the bare circle. He offers no checkable mechanism at this point, though he later adds other tests and concedes his position is circular.
- Plato uphold: On the record: Shelley declared at the opening that Christ is the final authority, that his word is infallible and that Scripture is that word, and he has held since that Scripture is self-authenticating through its divine voice. The called line restates that position and does not depart from it. Dyer asked how Shelley knows the 66 books are the limit of the canon, which was the question on the table. Shelley's answer is that no other book matches the divine voice. That is the bare circle of rung 2: the criterion is the Bible's own self-attestation, so it assumes the canon in dispute. No mechanism outside the thing in question is named at this point. He later adds internal consistency and reception, and he concedes the circularity at 119:00. Those additions come after the line and do not change what it was at 23:21. The element of offering the conclusion as proof to a disputing opponent is met. This is not an opponent's unfair reduction of a rung-3 answer. It does make a difference that Shelley openly declared self-authentication as his first principle, but Dyer was asking exactly about that principle. I rate the severity as minor rather than major.
Appeal this callout
Appeals come only from the debaters themselves. Sign in with Google to start; you'll then prove which debater you are, once.