Appeal: evidence
From DEBATE: Jay Dyer Vs Pastor Jonathan Shelley | Tradition Vs Sola Scriptura.
- #23091:39:02upheld Jay Dyer epainos: evidence (+1) tempered from major to minor
The council upheld the call: Jay Dyer earned 1 point.
“Michael Garden has a book on icons in the first, second, and third century.”
Diogenes: Shelley said Jay could not name anyone in the first five hundred years who used icons. Jay answers with a named scholarly book on early Christian icons and the second-to-third-century catacomb paintings and altars, both of which can be checked.minor: It is a checkable source and monuments offered directly against Shelley's challenge, in contrast to his own failure to name early witnesses, but the book's name is garbled and no passage is quoted.
The bench graded it minor (Aristotle, Plato); the referee had major.
- Aristotle uphold: On the record: Dyer opened by declaring that Scripture points beyond the text to oral tradition, and that the Orthodox liturgical and ecclesial practice rests on apostolic tradition. He has held that throughout, and citing a book on early icons is consistent with it. Shelley challenged Dyer to name anyone in the first five hundred years who used icons. Dyer named a checkable scholarly work, and the verifier confirmed it exists as Garten's Early Icons. He also pointed to the catacomb paintings, which can be checked. That is a named source cited for a claim and kept distinct from it. The garbled name and the loose dating ("before 325" against "first, second, third century") do not change that the source supports the claim. It earns "evidence". The sourcing is a bare name, so I score it minor, not major.
- Socrates uphold: Read blind, found "evidence". Shelley asked who in the first three centuries held icons, and Jay answered with a named book by a named author (Michael Garden). He added the catacombs in Rome as a second checkable ground. The source can be looked up, and it is kept distinct from the claim. It is only a named source with no quotation, so the weight is minor. He was not citing an authority in place of a reason, since the catacombs give a reason beside it.
- Plato uphold: On the record: Dyer declared at the opening that Scripture points beyond itself to oral tradition and that Shelley has no basis for the Protestant canon, and he has pressed that challenge throughout; naming a checkable source for early icons is consistent with his appeal to the Fathers and the historical record, not a departure. Dyer answers Shelley's challenge to name early icon use by citing a named, checkable book (Michael Garten's Early Icons) and the catacomb paintings and altars. The verifier confirmed the book exists, though the name was garbled and the dating is "before 325", not strictly the first three centuries. A named source plus a physical site is a mechanism that can be checked. It is offered as support and kept separate from the claim. The source bears the claim, so evidence stands. Major is a stretch, because the citation is bare and loosely scoped, so I'd lower the severity to minor.
Appeal this callout
Appeals come only from the debaters themselves. Sign in with Google to start; you'll then prove which debater you are, once.