Appeal: dodge
From DEBATE: Jay Dyer Vs Pastor Jonathan Shelley | Tradition Vs Sola Scriptura.
- #233057:14upheld Jonathan Shelley psogos: dodge (+1) tempered from major to minor
The council upheld the call: Jonathan Shelley gave away 1 point.
“I don't care what person…”
Diogenes: Asked repeatedly to name any pre-Nicene father or church holding his canon (53:06, 53:16, 56:48, 57:10), he offers Jerome (fourth century), Athanasius (New Testament only), or "any Christian", and then says he doesn't care who.minor: The question was put many times and bears directly on his claim that the 66 books were received from the apostles' time, and it was left unanswered for much of the debate.
The bench graded it minor (Aristotle, Plato); the referee had major.
- Aristotle uphold: On the record: Shelley opened by declaring Christ the infallible head and final authority, with Scripture as his word, self-authenticating by its divine voice, and has held that throughout; the called line refuses to name a pre-Nicene father, which is consistent with that position and not a departure from it. Dyer asked the same direct question several times (53:06, 53:16, 56:48, 57:10): name a pre-Nicene person with the Protestant canon. Shelley never named one. He offered Jerome, who is fourth century, and Athanasius, who is not pre-Nicene and whose list differs from Shelley's. He also said "any Christian" and then "I don't care what person." He gave a framework-style reason, that the canon is recognised by its divine voice and does not depend on named persons. But he did not name a presupposition he denies and say what must be settled first, and he had earlier answered a similar challenge on the 66 books by pointing to the divine voice. The question was put at least twice and was not answered in its terms. A dodge needs only that, so I uphold it. Because he had given a rung-1 or rung-2 answer on the canon, I hold this at the called severity.
- Socrates uphold: Read blind, found "dodge". Jay has asked repeatedly (53:01, 53:16, 56:48, 57:10) for a single pre-Nicene figure who held the Protestant canon. At 57:14 Shelley answers "I don't care what person" and never names anyone. Earlier he did offer Jerome, who is not pre-Nicene, and he later dismisses the question as irrelevant. He has set out a framework reason: scripture is scripture whether or not anyone identified it (52:59). But he does not make that a framework objection here, so the question is refused after being put several times.
- Plato uphold: On the record: Shelley declared at the opening that Christ is the final authority, that his word is infallible and that Scripture is that word, and he has held throughout that Scripture is self-authenticating, so naming a pre-Nicene father is not needed for his canon. The called line states that position and does not depart from it. Dyer put the same question repeatedly: name a pre-Nicene father or church with the Protestant canon. Shelley never answered it. He offered Jerome, who is fourth century, and Athanasius, who covers only the New Testament. He then said "I don't care what person" and fell back on "any Christian." That is a dodge, not a framework objection. He never said that the question presupposes something he denies, and he never said what must be settled first. His standing view is that Scripture is self-authenticating, but at 57:14 he did not invoke it as grounds for declining.
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